PM Chris Hipkins

[R650R]

You all know I’m no labour fan but man isn’t lil chipper hitting home runs at moment in short time. Knock out blow to pesky Nash setting tone for a no nonsense govt.
The coastal shipping initiative for Gisborne-Napier and beyond ( why haven’t the greens ever managed to get that going already?)
The policy bonfire taking away a lot of nationals ammunition.
You can’t just imagine Jacindas response to above issues....
Next six months sure will be interesting :)

[TheDemonLord]

You all know I’m no labour fan but man isn’t lil chipper hitting home runs at moment in short time. Knock out blow to pesky Nash setting tone for a no nonsense govt.
The coastal shipping initiative for Gisborne-Napier and beyond ( why haven’t the greens ever managed to get that going already?)
The policy bonfire taking away a lot of nationals ammunition.
You can’t just imagine Jacindas response to above issues....
Next six months sure will be interesting :)

A Tiger can't change it's stripes.

[FLUB]

If Labour gets back in, do you think it will be the first or second week that all these policies reappear?

[TheDemonLord]

If Labour gets back in, do you think it will be the first or second week that all these policies reappear?

I think it will be the length of time for them to find where they stored the draft in their documents.

So about 5 minutes.

[R650R]

I think it will be the length of time for them to find where they stored the draft in their documents.

So about 5 minutes.

What worries me most is latest polls show they will need a coalition of Maori and greens..... that will be worse than any of their own policies...

This election will be aboutsaying no to co governance and six waters (it’s called that because they added the sea and sky and the new Winston’s said it’s six because they are pissing on your back and telling you it’s raining!!!)

[TheDemonLord]

My 'fear' (if you can call it that) is that the Natural disaster of the Cyclone will give Labour and the Greens a convincing talking point around Climate Change and evil business and let's just throw money at the problem.

I unfortunately have gotten Labour ads on Youtube.

Every single one of them talks about spending money.

At this point with massive government-caused inflation, I'm having a hard time deciding whether it's incompetence or malevolence.

[R650R]

My 'fear' (if you can call it that) is that the Natural disaster of the Cyclone will give Labour and the Greens a convincing talking point around Climate Change and evil business and let's just throw money at the problem.

I unfortunately have gotten Labour ads on Youtube.

Every single one of them talks about spending money.

At this point with massive government-caused inflation, I'm having a hard time deciding whether it's incompetence or malevolence.

I think their not clever enough to be of evil intent but definitely incompetent.
What’s worse post flood is the local trauma coupled with the covid era mask policing type judgement. Anecdotal evidence is that forestry industry workers are copping abuse in public over slash issue due to the blame/judgement culture modern society has enveloped into.
It’s an interesting quandary though, trees are now evil but they need trees to save environment.
And we now have huge masses of unstable hillsides that erm need trees planted on them to stabilise. One wonders how much of current forestry was planted post Bola to solve same problem...
Yep I’m sure they will spend much money looking like something is being done.
The silver lining from all this disaster though is many people now red pilled into the knowledge that the government is not here to save you....

[pete376403]

It’s an interesting quandary though, trees are now evil but they need trees to save environment.

Live trees, growing, helping hold the soil together and sequestering carbon are good. Dead trees, cut into logs with slash left piled where it fell - bad. Even you should be able to see there is a difference.
Trees planted after Bola did do a pretty ok job of holding the steep, unstable hillsides together. It was after they were cut that bad things started to happen.

[george formby]

Live trees, growing, helping hold the soil together and sequestering carbon are good. Dead trees, cut into logs with slash left piled where it fell - bad. Even you should be able to see there is a difference.
Trees planted after Bola did do a pretty ok job of holding the steep, unstable hillsides together. It was after they were cut that bad things started to happen.

Allegedly, 70% of NZ's timber plantations have offshore owners. Be nice if the gummint sent them a bill for the clean up.

[TheDemonLord]

Allegedly, 70% of NZ's timber plantations have offshore owners. Be nice if the gummint sent them a bill for the clean up.

Normally I'm wildly opposed to things like this - but certainly a one-time 'voluntary' donation, perhaps a rebuilt building or two named in honor of the generous company who came to the party wouldn't be amiss.

[george formby]

Normally I'm wildly opposed to things like this - but certainly a one-time 'voluntary' donation, perhaps a rebuilt building or two named in honor of the generous company who came to the party wouldn't be amiss.

Many, many, countries have enforced far better forestry practices to minimise risk from clear felling and ensure soil quality is maintained for bio-diversity. We should catch up, quickly.

[TheDemonLord]

Many, many, countries have enforced far better forestry practices to minimise risk from clear felling and ensure soil quality is maintained for bio-diversity. We should catch up, quickly.

I'll take your word on it - I know next to nothing about Foresty. The only impression I have is that our trees grow well in our climate and so are profitable.

[Blackbird]

I worked in the forestry/pulp and paper industry in the central north island for 30 years. CHH and Fletchers had much higher standards of cleanup than east coast operations. We also had international quality standards and international sustainability standards which are subject to independent audit. Not all forestry organisations are equal and it's further muddied by both National and Labour alike accelerating forestry investment out east. For the right reasons of course but the negative aspects inevitably glossed over. It's a complicated old world !

[JimO]

its almost as if hipkins just beamed down from the enterprise, people seem to forget he was high up in the previous 2 governments

[Berries]

people seem to forget he was high up in the previous 2 governments
You cant make jokes about dwarfism these days.

[R650R]

Live trees, growing, helping hold the soil together and sequestering carbon are good. Dead trees, cut into logs with slash left piled where it fell - bad. Even you should be able to see there is a difference.
Trees planted after Bola did do a pretty ok job of holding the steep, unstable hillsides together. It was after they were cut that bad things started to happen.

Even you should be able to see that yes I can see that.

My remark was about the irony of the dual hats that tree said now wear.

[R650R]

Nice work chippie, Mash Potato is gone just like that....

Now if you’ll just sack that other racist man hater in same fashion you’ll win a LOT of voters over

[TheDemonLord]

Nice work chippie, Mash Potato is gone just like that....

Now if you’ll just sack that other racist man hater in same fashion you’ll win a LOT of voters over

If there was any justice in this world, all the farces that Stuart Nash presided over would be reversed as he's clearly corrupt as hell.

[husaberg]

Nice work chippie, Mash Potato is gone just like that....

Now if you’ll just sack that other racist man hater in same fashion you’ll win a LOT of voters over

Unlike this crowd?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-national-party-leak-a-timeline-of-the-scandal-that-toppled-muller/YNQ53DNDYZPY2VQFJYMRUY3NS4/

THIS GOVERNMENT CAN’T BE TRUSTED WITH ANYTHING
JULY 04, 2020
Michael Woodhouse MICHAEL WOODHOUSE
Yet another mistake just goes to prove that this Government is not fit to manage the Covid-19 recovery, National’s Health spokesperson Michael Woodhouse says. “Reports coming in this morning of personal details being leaked which reveals the identity of New Zealand’s current active cases, is yet another serious failing from this incompetent Government.

“This is unconscionable and unacceptable that those suffering from the incredibly dangerous virus now have to suffer further with their private details being leaked.

“The Government needs to get to the bottom of this, and quickly. The Ministry of Health have been assuring people since the beginning of the epidemic in New Zealand that personal details would remain private, it’s unfathomable that they couldn’t handle a simple task like this.

“Something as simple as keeping confidential information confidential should not be a difficult task, but if there is anything we have learnt from this shambolic Government it is that they cannot be trust with anything.


National Party leader Todd Muller says no further MPs in his party received confidential information from Michelle Boag, after revelations today that Michael Woodhouse also received four unsolicited emails.




Boag confessed to leaking the personal details of 18 people in Covid-19 managed isolation and quarantine to National MP Hamish Walker, who then leaked it to media. This morning, Woodhouse revealed he deleted four unsolicited emails from Boag.

Woodhouse told Nine to Noon Boag called him on Sunday 21 June to tell him she had information that could be "pertinent" to the Covid-19 response and "helpful" to him.


Walker announced on Thursday that he would not stand for re-election for the Southland electorate at the upcoming 2020 election.

Former National Party President Michelle Boag has left the National Party, after being a member for 47 years.
Her resignation comes after revelations she passed on private patient information to National health spokesperson Michael Woodhouse.

Woodhouse however remained on and is now shadow leader of the house.....

[TheDemonLord]

unlike this crowd?
Woodhouse however remained on and is now shadow leader of the house.....

but nashnal!

[R650R]

Integrity on steroids... chippers investigating the whole lobbying charade...

He’s hit a home run revealing lobbyists have their own swipe cards to enter the beehive. He straight up said if you come inside you come in the front door like everyone else. This affects both major parties via trade unions/road transport lobby.... but what I like is it will expose the Green money too...

[husaberg]

Integrity on steroids... chippers investigating the whole lobbying charade...

He’s hit a home run revealing lobbyists have their own swipe cards to enter the beehive. He straight up said if you come inside you come in the front door like everyone else. This affects both major parties via trade unions/road transport lobby.... but what I like is it will expose the Green money too...
reality differs



With Labour declaring just $150,000 in large donations last year, National raised more than $15 from its big money donors for every $1 Labour raised from its own large donors. However, Labour has historically relied on many smaller donations which are not immediately published by the Electoral Commission.

The National Party may start election year with a $2.3 million war chest raised from 24 big donors in 2022, while Labour has declared just $150,000 in large donations, according to Electoral Commission records.

The disparity has seen National raise more money from large donors in one year than Labour has raised in nearly a decade.

Most of National’s funds are thanks to a fundraising blitz from former deputy leader Paula Bennett who tapped richlisters, including New Zealand’s wealthiest man, for as much as $250,000 each last year. It is not clear how much of this funding was spent in 2022, and how much has been put aside for campaigning this year.


In total, National had collected the most from donors last year, with $2.31 million. ACT had been given $1.15m from its affluent supporters.
While Labour had received less than a 10th of what National had been given, reporting just $150,000 in significant donations.
Greens’ co-leaders Marama Davidson and James Shaw had given their party a total of $122,472 between 2020 and the end of 2022.


Exceptionally wealthy donors are giving millions to the National and ACT parties ahead of the election, while the political Left struggles to attract many big backers.
The country’s richest man, billionaire Graeme Hart​, was one of three people to give National $250,000 last year. The party’s other mega donors included Auckland rich lister Murray Bolton and Zuru co-founder Nick Mowbray​.
No other political party had an individual donor forking out north of $200,000.
Te Pāti Māori appeared to have had no donations over $30,000. The Green Party only received donations that large from its co-leaders, who are forced by the party constitution to tithe a portion of their salaries

[TheDemonLord]

but nashnal!

Called it.

[R650R]

Oh dear... you think after you vilify a visiting women’s rights activist, observe and tacitly endorse the unruly aftermath that you’d do your homework on all the background issues at play....
But chippy was like a Deer in the headlights when asked on camera what is a women???
True it was a bit of ambush journalism but at this level you need to be ready for these moments.

[neels]

But chippy was like a Deer in the headlights when asked on camera what is a women???
It's a bullshit play by the journo, in the current climate whatever answer he gives will be grounds for someone to be offended, almost better to accept the accusation of avoiding the question and just not answer.

[TheDemonLord]

It's a bullshit play by the journo, in the current climate whatever answer he gives will be grounds for someone to be offended, almost better to accept the accusation of avoiding the question and just not answer.

Which is exactly the precise reason why it's not a Bullshit play.

There is an answer to that question. A definitive, scientifically, biologically, socially correct answer.

And if you are too much of a coward or too possessed by an ideology to give that answer - then the rest of us ought to know.

If someone is offended by the objective truth, then we should not pander to their delusion.

[neels]

It's a bullshit play by the journo, in the current climate whatever answer he gives will be grounds for someone to be offended, almost better to accept the accusation of avoiding the question and just not answer.Which is exactly the precise reason why it's not a Bullshit play.

There is an answer to that question. A definitive, scientifically, biologically, socially correct answer.

And if you are too much of a coward or too possessed by an ideology to give that answer - then the rest of us ought to know.

If someone is offended by the objective truth, then we should not pander to their delusion.
And that post exactly proves my point.

There will also be people who hold the opposite opinion.

The media seem to be trying to beat the issue into a them vs them (or perhaps they vs them?) situation , presumably because it gets more headlines than people having reasoned discussion.

[TheDemonLord]

And that post exactly proves my point.

There will also be people who hold the opposite opinion.

The media seem to be trying to beat the issue into a them vs them (or perhaps they vs them?) situation , presumably because it gets more headlines than people having reasoned discussion.

This isn't a Media issue (although agree - they are complicit as hell).

This is not a matter of Opinion, Not is it a matter of discussion.

This is a matter of XY Chromosomes vs XX Chromosomes.

Now - to be clear - I actually know several Trans people, I've worked with them, drunk with them, Seen Cryptopsy live with them - I'm fine in public life to say that if it makes your ability to navigate this world a bit easier, then sure - I'll call you She or Him.

And for most genuinely Trans people - that is all they want - to be left alone and to live their life in the manner that suits them. Hence why I get along with the few I do know.

However - the limit I place on that is that there are certain biological realities that underpin our Sexually Dimorhphic species - Men and Women (and this will be perhaps my most controversial take ever) are not the same. No man has a Womb, can produce eggs and grow a Baby. Women likewise cannot produce Sperm,

And before anyone brings up the various extremely rare inter-sex conditions - IIRC those people are Sterile - they cannot reproduce - and as harsh as this sounds - they have a medical condition, they are not a separate gender.

If I take the Marxist position for a moment of 'everything is a social construct' - which has a tiny element of truth to it - sure - we have created a Gendered Society... on the primary basis that Men and Women are, on average, different.

We have sex-segregated spaces because most Women want privacy and don't want some creep leering at them when they are undressing. We have sex-segregated sports because the absolute best woman in the world gets trounced by mid-level Men in almost all sports (except extreme long distance running and swimming). We have Gender Roles because surprisingly - Women have certain things they like in a Man and Men have certain things they like in a Woman.

All of this rests upon a biological reality - and that is what certain activists are seeking to undermine. Whether it's Men trying to go for Smear Tests (despite not having a Cervix) or claiming that they can have periods, to the attempt to erase motherhood - by calling them Birthing persons and Chest feeding (y'know - the one thing only Women can do that happens to be vital for the continuation of our species).

So - no, this is not a matter of opinion or a matter for Debate - in the same way that it is not a matter of opinion or a matter for debate that water is wet.

The more they push, the more they try to cross that Rubricon, the more otherwise tolerant people are going to become intolerant.

[caseye]

Wow, argue with that neels, I'm pretty sure he/she , is right.
I'm also pretty sure I'm one those tolerant people who is about to become quite intolerant of anyone telling me a man can breastfeed a child, pretty sure it was my mum did that for me and my siblings.
:crazy:

[neels]

Wow, argue with that neels, I'm pretty sure he/she , is right
Not actually making any attempt to argue with that, however seem to have provided the opportunity for another absolutist anti-trans rant.

The point being made was that I can completely understand why Chippy didn't want to provide the soundbite that the journo was looking for, to spin into clickbait and provoke the other side of the argument from whatever his answer was, probably not caring what side that is as long as it generates advertising revenue.

There will always be people who hold extreme black and white views on either side of an argument, they are lost to any sort of rational discussion, it's left to the people with critical reasoning skills to actually come up with an answer that works for those that live in the real world with all of it's shades of grey.

[BMWST?]

Not actually making any attempt to argue with that, however seem to have provided the opportunity for another absolutist anti-trans rant.

The point being made was that I can completely understand why Chippy didn't want to provide the soundbite that the journo was looking for, to spin into clickbait and provoke the other side of the argument from whatever his answer was, probably not caring what side that is as long as it generates advertising revenue.

There will always be people who hold extreme black and white views on either side of an argument, they are lost to any sort of rational discussion, it's left to the people with critical reasoning skills to actually come up with an answer that works for those that live in the real world with all of it's shades of grey.

What is the argument ? His non answer cancelled about 49.5 percent of the population

[pete376403]

So - no, this is not a matter of opinion or a matter for Debate - in the same way that it is not a matter of opinion or a matter for debate that water is wet.

The more they push, the more they try to cross that Rubricon, the more otherwise tolerant people are going to become intolerant.

I agree with the bulk of your statements but, water in the form of superheated steam is dry. And the river name is Rubicon.

[neels]

Anyway I don't know why everyone is getting so excited, it's not like this is a new argument, it's been going on for centuries.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgp9MPLEAqA

[MD]

It's a rare moment when I agree with comments by TDL but I'm a Monty Python fan and they made the point well 'the bleedin obvious' overrides woke stupidity every time.

People have the right to be different. I have no objection and have no negative attitude towards people who are different from me, be it race, colour, sex, religion, choice of haircut, car, motorbike, short, fat, tall, blond, ginger, left-handed, right-handed, or whatever. I do object though to every minority demanding that the majority must bow and worship their minority because they have self-appointed themselves as special and deserve special recognition, special rights, special treatment and should be gloried at every opportunity by all others. Next census everyone should declare their gender as walrus.

[R650R]

It's a rare moment when I agree with comments by TDL but I'm a Monty Python fan and they made the point well 'the bleedin obvious' overrides woke stupidity every time.

People have the right to be different. I have no objection and have no negative attitude towards people who are different from me, be it race, colour, sex, religion, choice of haircut, car, motorbike, short, fat, tall, blond, ginger, left-handed, right-handed, or whatever. I do object though to every minority demanding that the majority must bow and worship their minority because they have self-appointed themselves as special and deserve special recognition, special rights, special treatment and should be gloried at every opportunity by all others. Next census everyone should declare their gender as walrus.

Welcome to the silent majority, thatvis pretty much the view of 95% of the population.

[husaberg]

Welcome to the silent majority, thatvis pretty much the view of 95% of the population.

Kind of odd that you claim to know what a silent majority think or that it is their view is, when they are by your own claim silent...:innocent:
It similar to your own views have been shown to be outside of what is commonly believed.
Like your claims Russia would never invade Ukraine...
Or your covid hoax posts
Or your covid cure posts
etc etc

[TheDemonLord]

I agree with the bulk of your statements but, water in the form of superheated steam is dry. And the river name is Rubicon.

Water is water and steam is steam ;)

As for the river - https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Crossing+the+Rubricon

They spell it with an 'r' - so?

[TheDemonLord]

Not actually making any attempt to argue with that, however seem to have provided the opportunity for another absolutist anti-trans rant.

Again, I'm not actually Anti-Trans.

What I'm opposed to is a radical form of gender ideology and it's attempts to redefine society.

That, and I'm not too comfortable with a fully grown man (with all appendages still attached, flapping in the breeze) stripping off in a Women's Changing rooms in front of my school-age daughter, simply on his assurance that he really is a Woman.


The point being made was that I can completely understand why Chippy didn't want to provide the soundbite that the journo was looking for, to spin into clickbait and provoke the other side of the argument from whatever his answer was, probably not caring what side that is as long as it generates advertising revenue.

There will always be people who hold extreme black and white views on either side of an argument, they are lost to any sort of rational discussion, it's left to the people with critical reasoning skills to actually come up with an answer that works for those that live in the real world with all of it's shades of grey.

I know why Chippy doesn't want to give an answer.

To give the right answer will alienate the radical and activist labour voterbase.
To give the wrong answer will alienate 50% of the voting population.

That is precisely why it needs to be asked. Is he willing to lie to pander to his crowd or is he willing to say what has been true for eons? Or is he going to try and politician his way out of the question?

Because today it's a question where everyone knows the answer, tomorrow it might not be.

[BMWST?]

I know why Chippy doesn't want to give an answer.

To give the right answer will alienate the radical and activist labour voterbase.
To give the wrong answer will alienate 50% of the voting population.


alienate AT LEAST 50% imho

[TheDemonLord]

alienate AT LEAST 50% imho

I can only hope.

[F5 Dave]

So who do we think is more of a Moron? R666 or TDL?

Geez, it's a hard call. It's a bit surprising they can manage to breathe when they are asleep.

Aaaahh duuuh.

[husaberg]

So who do we think is more of a Moron? R666 or TDL?

Geez, it's a hard call. It's a bit surprising they can manage to breathe when they are asleep.

Aaaahh duuuh.

Word on the street is at least two of those share the same IP address
Plus one is using a breather device for fatties with apnea...

[TheDemonLord]

So who do we think is more of a Moron? R666 or TDL?

Geez, it's a hard call. It's a bit surprising they can manage to breathe when they are asleep.

Aaaahh duuuh.

Would you like to tell us what a Woman is then?

[TheDemonLord]

Word on the street is at least two of those share the same IP address
Plus one is using a breather device for fatties with apnea...

You, uh, got some evidence for that claim?

That's some very *specific* claims, explicitly accusing me (at least) of breaching the site rules, so I would hope that for such an accusation you can back it up with some form of Proof.




But I'll save you the trouble, since I know I only have the one account and the Mods can see my IP address (and it's a Static IP) and can confirm that I'm just me - not to mention things like join date etc. etc.

I'm not going to ping the mods for that post, it's not my style and never will be - suffice to say I expect either an edit or a retraction.

[F5 Dave]

Aboo-hoo-hoo-hoo.

(Just guessing, can't read above but know it is moronic,).

[TheDemonLord]

Aboo-hoo-hoo-hoo.

Your definition of a Women is Aboo-hoo-hoo-hoo?

Are you saying Women are overly emotional and crying? Sounds like quite the sexist definition to me...

[pete376403]

Water is water and steam is steam ;)

As for the river - https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Crossing+the+Rubricon

They spell it with an 'r' - so?

Sp water (H2O) is not steam (H2O)? As for the river, I'd prefer to trust a real encyclopedia - Brittanica: (even if it is from perfidious Albion)
Rubicon
stream, Italy

Alternate titles: Rubico
Written and fact-checked by
Last Updated: Feb 12, 2023 • Article History
Rubicon, Latin Rubico, or Rubicon, small stream that separated Cisalpine Gaul from Italy in the era of the Roman Republic. The movement of Julius Caesar’s forces over the Rubicon into Italy in 49 BC violated the law (the Lex Cornelia Majestatis) that forbade a general to lead an army out of the province to which he was assigned. His act thus amounted to a declaration of war against the Roman Senate and resulted in the three-year civil war that left Caesar ruler of the Roman world. “Crossing the Rubicon” became a popular phrase describing a step that definitely commits a person to a given course of action.

[husaberg]

Sp water (H2O) is not steam (H2O)? As for the river, I'd prefer to trust a real encyclopedia - Brittanica: (even if it is from perfidious Albion)
Rubicon
stream, Italy

Alternate titles: Rubico
Written and fact-checked by
Last Updated: Feb 12, 2023 • Article History
Rubicon, Latin Rubico, or Rubicon, small stream that separated Cisalpine Gaul from Italy in the era of the Roman Republic. The movement of Julius Caesar’s forces over the Rubicon into Italy in 49 BC violated the law (the Lex Cornelia Majestatis) that forbade a general to lead an army out of the province to which he was assigned. His act thus amounted to a declaration of war against the Roman Senate and resulted in the three-year civil war that left Caesar ruler of the Roman world. “Crossing the Rubicon” became a popular phrase describing a step that definitely commits a person to a given course of action.


not to mention
https://www.jeep.ca/en/articles/the-meaning-of-the-rubicon-name
THE MEANING OF THE RUBICON NAME
2021-02-12
When you go through the Jeep® range, you come across the name Rubicon. In fact, it is used to describe versions of the Wrangler and Gladiator. It also happens to be the models offering the most off-road skills.
But why the Rubicon name? Let's go back a bit to understand it.
Historical Importance
The Rubicon is a small river. In Roman times, it marked the official border between Italy and Cisalpine Gaul, the region south of the Alps that was ruled by Julius Caesar. According to the law of the Roman Republic, any provincial governor who decided to lead his troops across the border back into Italy would be declared a public enemy. Crossing the Rubicon was, quite simply, a declaration of war.
At the beginning of 49 BC, Julius Caesar's influence was growing. Alarmed by his growing power, the Senate ordered him to put his command aside. Caesar had no intention of obeying the Senate and he knew perfectly well what the consequences of his insubordination would be. He understood that civil war would most likely ensue between him and the Roman nobility, led by his most powerful rival and former ally, Pompey. If Caesar decided to cross the Rubicon, there would be no turning back.
We'll let you guess the rest of the story that gave rise to the expression "Crossing the Rubicon". It means to do something that implies that there is no turning back.

[TheDemonLord]

Sp water (H2O) is not steam (H2O)?

One is a liquid state, the other is gaseous ;)

Both are DiHydrogen Monoxide.



As for the river, I'd prefer to trust a real encyclopedia - Brittanica: (even if it is from perfidious Albion)
Rubicon
stream, Italy

Alternate titles: Rubico
Written and fact-checked by
Last Updated: Feb 12, 2023 • Article History
Rubicon, Latin Rubico, or Rubicon, small stream that separated Cisalpine Gaul from Italy in the era of the Roman Republic. The movement of Julius Caesar’s forces over the Rubicon into Italy in 49 BC violated the law (the Lex Cornelia Majestatis) that forbade a general to lead an army out of the province to which he was assigned. His act thus amounted to a declaration of war against the Roman Senate and resulted in the three-year civil war that left Caesar ruler of the Roman world. “Crossing the Rubicon” became a popular phrase describing a step that definitely commits a person to a given course of action.

So, I had an interesting read - it appears that yes, Rubicon is correct....

However, it also appears that the misspelling of 'Rubricon', either as a pun (Rubric + Rubicon) or as a genuine mistake has entered the public lexicon:

https://ojs.lboro.ac.uk/JIL/article/view/LLC-V4-I2-2010-3/1499

Oh well, I've learned something.

[FJRider]

Sp water (H2O) is not steam (H2O)?

From my schoolboy science classes ... their written formula is as follows ... H 2O(l) is liquid water ... but H 2O(g) is steam.


Education in a wonderful thing ... :laugh:

[onearmedbandit]

You, uh, got some evidence for that claim?

That's some very *specific* claims, explicitly accusing me (at least) of breaching the site rules, so I would hope that for such an accusation you can back it up with some form of Proof.




But I'll save you the trouble, since I know I only have the one account and the Mods can see my IP address (and it's a Static IP) and can confirm that I'm just me - not to mention things like join date etc. etc.

I'm not going to ping the mods for that post, it's not my style and never will be - suffice to say I expect either an edit or a retraction.

Can confirm that there is no shared ip, so either he has no idea what he is talking about or is trolling.

While I don't always agree with what you post I do love to see your haters (who claim to have you on ignore etc) chomping at the bit to talk about you.

[Ocean1]

I'm having a hard time deciding whether it's incompetence or malevolence.

They're not mutually exclusive characteristics, dude.

[R650R]

Oh oh Hipkins is already going down the identity politics path. Apparently three waters has been rebranded as “water infrastructure” after allegedly having Mahuta cop too much “abuse” about what a crappy plan it was.
Bumbling along in an interview he said cabinet should have supported her more blah blah.
A reporter went straight for the jugular and said was that a criticism of Jacindas leadership. That touched a nerve and although he said no straight away he should have really pulled up that journo on such a cheap shot and tossed them out.
Any how apparently all decisions now are part of the collective that cabinet is, he really liked that word used it a few times....

[TheDemonLord]

Oh oh Hipkins is already going down the identity politics path. Apparently three waters has been rebranded as “water infrastructure” after allegedly having Mahuta cop too much “abuse” about what a crappy plan it was.
Bumbling along in an interview he said cabinet should have supported her more blah blah.
A reporter went straight for the jugular and said was that a criticism of Jacindas leadership. That touched a nerve and although he said no straight away he should have really pulled up that journo on such a cheap shot and tossed them out.
Any how apparently all decisions now are part of the collective that cabinet is, he really liked that word used it a few times....

You mean to say that he really believes in these deeply unpopular (not to mention disastrous) policies and only said he'd drop them to try and convince a gullible public who seem to suffer from some form of collective amnesia that's not Jacinda?!?

Well, colour me surprised.

[sugilite]

And there is this too. Im sure the councils won't mind.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131764971/government-quietly-withdraws-15b-promised-to-councils-in-three-waters-reset

[R650R]

A Tiger can't change it's stripes.

Didn’t take long you’ve been proven right. And the work media still complicit in this rolling train wreck. Recent headlines sling lines of “co-governance was probably the wrong term to describe what we wanted” and “three waters used to insult Maori” are just a couple of doozies....
Hopefully the riding mortgage rates will help voters make right choice.

[TheDemonLord]

Didn’t take long you’ve been proven right. And the work media still complicit in this rolling train wreck. Recent headlines sling lines of “co-governance was probably the wrong term to describe what we wanted” and “three waters used to insult Maori” are just a couple of doozies....
Hopefully the riding mortgage rates will help voters make right choice.

At this point, I should start calling myself Telepathic TDL and start charging money for my 'predictions' (AKA Just reading the academic literature so you know what their intentions are).

[sugilite]

To predict a pollie will repackage a turd is about as skilful as predicting the sun will rise from the east on the morrow. But if you want an attaboy , here you go — attaboy! ;)

[TheDemonLord]

To predict a pollie will repackage a turd is about as skilful as predicting the sun will rise from the east on the morrow. But if you want an attaboy , here you go — attaboy! ;)

That made me laugh far more than it should have :D

[pritch]

Hopefully the riding mortgage rates will help voters make right choice.

This indicates a lack of understanding? National are unlikely to do anything much to lower mortgage rates. Many of their voters don't have mortgages, they have savings and they actually prefer higher interest rates. Anyway the Reserve Bank, who control the interest rate, is supposed to be independent.

We tend to get what we voted for though. Look at the tragic clown show that is Auckland. They should have voted for the brown guy but they couldn't bring themselves to do that, so they voted for a guy named Brown who doesn't even understand English apparently. Coulda been worse, they might've got Leo.

[pete376403]

Hopefully the riding mortgage rates will help voters make right choice.

Independent Reserve Bank sets the base rates. Non-government owned trading banks set market interest rates. Where in this process does the government get to control anything?

[TheDemonLord]

Independent Reserve Bank sets the base rates. Non-government owned trading banks set market interest rates. Where in this process does the government get to control anything?

Independent is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

Firstly - it is wholly owned by the Government, which in-of-itself wouldn't make it 'Independent' - but the real crux of the issue is that the RBNZ's primary function (the bit that people are pointing to as 'separate' from the government) is defined in Legislation and the Policy Target Agreement (which is public and determines what the RBNZ is going to do) is agreed between the RBNZ And the Finance Minister.

In short - the Government and RBNZ agree on what outcome they would like e.g. it used to be to keep inflation below 4% IIRC - and then the RBNZ issues currency or changes the OCR in pursuit of that agreement.

It is therefore entirely possible that the Government could write an update to the Legislation that the OCR could not go above x% and change the Policy target agreement.

And people implicitly know this - because the RBNZ is owned by the Government and you never have full independence from that which owns you.

[TheDemonLord]

We tend to get what we voted for though.

I couldn't agree more...

Well, what everyone else voted for, cause I didn't vote for Labour...

[pete376403]

We have statutory independence from the government. This means we have operational autonomy to achieve our long-term objectives for the financial system.
https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/about-us/our-purpose-vision-and-values

Maybe the long term objectives are agreed between RBNZ and Government.

[TheDemonLord]

We have statutory independence from the government. This means we have operational autonomy to achieve our long-term objectives for the financial system.
https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/about-us/our-purpose-vision-and-values

Maybe the long term objectives are agreed between RBNZ and Government.

They are - effectively what they are saying is they are empowered by the Government to make decisions on their own without asking the Government for permission.

It does also mean that in some circumstances they can act contrary to what the Government wants.

However, they are still empowered by Legislation. Legislation that could change. As a hypothetical, tomorrow the Government could introduce Legislation to print a Billion Dollars a day - the RBNZ would have to do it and we would have Zimbabwe levels of inflation.

The operating theory of the RBNZ is that the long-term objectives (which they are empowered to do through legislation and policy) allows them to implement short-term unpopular policy that might fly contrary to the interest of the current government.

The problem is that any government can only tolerate unpopular policy for so long. Even from institutions that have Statutory independence - like the HRC, IPCA etc.

To be fair to the RBNZ - they are simply trying to fix the mess that Labour created with the tools at their disposal.

[BMWST?]

They are - effectively what they are saying is they are empowered by the Government to make decisions on their own without asking the Government for permission.

It does also mean that in some circumstances they can act contrary to what the Government wants.

However, they are still empowered by Legislation. Legislation that could change. As a hypothetical, tomorrow the Government could introduce Legislation to print a Billion Dollars a day - the RBNZ would have to do it and we would have Zimbabwe levels of inflation.

The operating theory of the RBNZ is that the long-term objectives (which they are empowered to do through legislation and policy) allows them to implement short-term unpopular policy that might fly contrary to the interest of the current government.

The problem is that any government can only tolerate unpopular policy for so long. Even from institutions that have Statutory independence - like the HRC, IPCA etc.

To be fair to the RBNZ - they are simply trying to fix the mess that Labour created with the tools at their disposal.

fair? Is it fair that people are being impacted by high inflation when that inflation is caused by the government(largely) who then requires the reserve bank to put the squeeze on to those people who cant afford it and may lose their house and their jobs

[TheDemonLord]

fair? Is it fair that people are being impacted by high inflation when that inflation is caused by the government(largely) who then requires the reserve bank to put the squeeze on to those people who cant afford it and may lose their house and their jobs

Bearing in mind, my Mortgage is up for renewal this year and I am absolutely shitting myself as to how bad it's going to be - looking at finances and seeing what excess fat can be trimmed and what sacrifices we might have to make, so when I say what I'm about to say - know that I am absolutely in this position:

If we think of NZ as a Ship - The captain (Labour and Stalinda) ran the ship aground, the ship is starting to sink (due to all that money being printed) - so the chief engineer (the RBNZ) in order to save the ship, seals a number of water-tight bulkheads. Some people on the other side of those bulkheads are now irrecoverably screwed and condemned to drown to death.

Who do you blame? The Chief Engineer for simply doing their job and saving the ship? Or the Captain who should never have been at the helm in the first place (Fuck you Winston).

I know where my wrath is directed.

This is what I meant by 'To be fair to the RBNZ'. I don't begrudge the RBNZ for doing what they are supposed to do. I lay the entirety of the blame at the Labour Government and Stalinda.

[Ocean1]

Where in this process does the government get to control anything?

They print tens of billions of dollars and dump them into the economy while producing absolutely nothing?

Do I get a prize?

[pete376403]

They print tens of billions of dollars and dump them into the economy while producing absolutely nothing?

Do I get a prize?

Reserve Bank does the printing so that independence from government thing again?

[R650R]

I wonder did anyone keep count of how many times Hipkins and the Police said there was no spike in crime after the cyclone????
Well they have now admitted CRIME DOUBLED during week after and that’s just reported events!
You can imagine there would likely be more where say a farmer presented a firearm to defend property and didn’t report it knowing he’d be the one charged.
It’s even worse when you consider lack of mobility as only two gas stations were open in Napier in first two days. Also majority of people were at home as many workplaces closed/inaccessible etc...

“For burglaries, there were previously six a day on average in the district which rose to 13 per day on average between February 14-20.

Burglary figures then dropped back to normal levels in the weeks following.

For public order incidents, there were normally 27 reports a day which rose to an average of 53 a day between February 14-20.

Those incidents stayed relatively high for the following two weeks at around 48 per day before reducing.”

Btw what they like to call “disorder” events is usually full on gang confrontations/fights it’s not just some noisy teenagers in street that the title suggests.

[husaberg]

I wonder did anyone keep count of how many times Hipkins and the Police said there was no spike in crime after the cyclone????
Well they have now admitted CRIME DOUBLED during week after and that’s just reported events!
You can imagine there would likely be more where say a farmer presented a firearm to defend property and didn’t report it knowing he’d be the one charged.
It’s even worse when you consider lack of mobility as only two gas stations were open in Napier in first two days. Also majority of people were at home as many workplaces closed/inaccessible etc...

“For burglaries, there were previously six a day on average in the district which rose to 13 per day on average between February 14-20.

Burglary figures then dropped back to normal levels in the weeks following.

For public order incidents, there were normally 27 reports a day which rose to an average of 53 a day between February 14-20.

Those incidents stayed relatively high for the following two weeks at around 48 per day before reducing.”

Btw what they like to call “disorder” events is usually full on gang confrontations/fights it’s not just some noisy teenagers in street that the title suggests.

You are just not that bright .

Spencer and Strobl (2019) find that hurricanes cause crime to rise by 35 percent. More specifically, they find that aggravated assault, break-ins, and shootings increase during hurricanes, while murder, rape, and robbery decline.

[R650R]

What’s going on chippy???

Hopefully he’ll come home and get the right royal broom out and deal with Meka-gate like he did with Mash.
What a disgraceful disrespect of democracy to not speak to leader and leave but not leave your party, abandoning those who did vote for you, abandoning people in a disaster zone (she was in charge of cyclone recovery). Who knows what triggered all this. Hopefully it was behind the scenes good stuff like abandoning co-governance and other depetatist nonsense.
He should sack her to avoid abuse of due process that is circumventing Waka jumping law. Yes I know there are other instances where it was not used but could have been.

[Berries]

I'd tap it.

[husaberg]

Someone hasn't quite figured out the vote for a party is separate from the vote for an electorate mp.

[TheDemonLord]

Someone hasn't quite figured out the vote for a party is separate from the vote for an electorate mp.

All too often, that's not the case.

[BMWST?]

Someone hasn't quite figured out the vote for a party is separate from the vote for an electorate mp.

party or list dosnt matter the proportion of labour MPs in parliament should remain the same as that decided by the electorate. The list mps enable the actual number to be adjusted to make the proportion right

[husaberg]

party or list dosnt matter the proportion of labour MPs in parliament should remain the same as that decided by the electorate. The list mps enable the actual number to be adjusted to make the proportion right

What i am saying is she is an electorate mp, thus her electorate voted for her separate to whatever party she stood for. Thus she actually has a mandate.
tbh i didn't even know who she was....nor will i miss her...

[neels]

What i am saying is she is an electorate mp, thus her electorate voted for her separate to whatever party she stood for. Thus she actually has a mandate.
tbh i didn't even know who she was....nor will i miss her...
In theory that's true, as she has been voted in by the electorate.

What would follow logically with jumping ship from labour to the maori party is that they would then lose their list mp, and labour would get an additional list mp, to maintain the correct proportion as determined by the party vote. Don't think it actually works that way though.

And none of it would be worth bothering this close to an election, for a mp that as you've said that most people have never heard of.

[husaberg]

In theory that's true, as she has been voted in by the electorate.

What would follow logically with jumping ship from labour to the maori party is that they would then lose their list mp, and labour would get an additional list mp, to maintain the correct proportion as determined by the party vote. Don't think it actually works that way though.

And none of it would be worth bothering this close to an election, for a mp that as you've said that most people have never heard of.

Not sure really as its on a percentage of votes, something like one electorate mp and 5% can equal 10 mps in total. Look at ACT or NZF a few elections ago. Like you said too close to next one. Maybe mute if Chippy and Christian Luxton are hitting it off on their date.

edit she's the one they dropped from the front bench as they found she had bullied a staffer, thus no great loss.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/368002/official-report-into-meka-whaitiri-incident-released

[BMWST?]

What i am saying is she is an electorate mp, thus her electorate voted for her separate to whatever party she stood for. Thus she actually has a mandate.
tbh i didn't even know who she was....nor will i miss her...
thats fine but the issue of the proportion of labour MPs in the house remains(i have no clue who she is either)

[Reckless]

The Maori party are going for the balance of power! KingMaker the media call it.
By the polls they are already in that position
This defection helps that cause greatly, especially if she keeps her seat.

Is this a good thing for the country?? :brick:

[TheDemonLord]

The Maori party are going for the balance of power! KingMaker the media call it.
By the polls they are already in that position
This defection helps that cause greatly, especially if she keeps her seat.

Is this a good thing for the country?? :brick:

No. After the disaster that was Winston and Jacinda, I've been convinced that Coalition governments, where the electorate are not given the chance to vote on the coalition itself are an affront to Democracy.

[pritch]

In theory that's true, as she has been voted in by the electorate.

What would follow logically with jumping ship from labour to the maori party is that they would then lose their list mp, and labour would get an additional list mp, to maintain the correct proportion as determined by the party vote. Don't think it actually works that way though.

And none of it would be worth bothering this close to an election, for a mp that as you've said that most people have never heard of.

If she had resigned in writing she would be out and a by election called. The word was that she had written and emailed a resignation but when the consequences were realised there was some high speed back tracking.

[pete376403]

No. After the disaster that was Winston and Jacinda, I've been convinced that Coalition governments, where the electorate are not given the chance to vote on the coalition itself are an affront to Democracy.
Well dont overlook the Coalition that Winston went into with Bolgers National government. Maybe it's not that coalitions are a disaster per se, more to do with the tail that wants to wag the dog.

[R650R]

Well dont overlook the Coalition that Winston went into with Bolgers National government. Maybe it's not that coalitions are a disaster per se, more to do with the tail that wants to wag the dog.

Coalition govts are the multi tasking element of democracy. Studies have been done that multitasking is a myth, even women don’t do it.
In all elements of live we must focus on the core objective st hand otherwise nothing gets done.
You can’t go around completing 70% of what you wanted to do so someone else can accomplish 15% of what they wanted to do.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/605676/Labours-finished-Harawira

[TheDemonLord]

Well dont overlook the Coalition that Winston went into with Bolgers National government. Maybe it's not that coalitions are a disaster per se, more to do with the tail that wants to wag the dog.

I think it was JRM that made the comment that Coalitions are negotiated behind closed doors and not voted on by the people. Which to me seems fundamentally opposed to Democracy.

One look at what happened to NZ First would tend to strongly suggest that their voterbase didn't want the to partner with Labour, yet they did.

That said - there is a commonality I notice in the example you give - Winston...

[R650R]

For all his wrong doings... and there are plenty at least he kept them(labour) in check.
And that’s what a lot of NZ first voters want. They prob hold centrist views and like a bit of both Nat and labour policies but don’t want them to be let run wild.
Case in point is Labour’s disastrous second term under “full power”, went complete batshit crazy and let economy turn into a flaming blowtorch of destruction against homeownership/inflation/cost of living. So drunk on power they even let unneeded greens have seats at the table.
Winston is what Winston is but he’s one of the loudest anti co-governance voices and for that I’ll still hear him out.
Winston in govt is like the second lieutenant on a nuke sub required to turn his key to launch missile.

[TheDemonLord]

For all his wrong doings... and there are plenty at least he kept them(labour) in check.
And that’s what a lot of NZ first voters want. They prob hold centrist views and like a bit of both Nat and labour policies but don’t want them to be let run wild.
Case in point is Labour’s disastrous second term under “full power”, went complete batshit crazy and let economy turn into a flaming blowtorch of destruction against homeownership/inflation/cost of living. So drunk on power they even let unneeded greens have seats at the table.
Winston is what Winston is but he’s one of the loudest anti co-governance voices and for that I’ll still hear him out.
Winston in govt is like the second lieutenant on a nuke sub required to turn his key to launch missile.

D'yah know how he would have actually kept Labour in check?

By forming a coalition with National and Act.

I've heard this argument before in various guises - but it's something like:

"If I'm a passenger in a car that's heading towards a Cliff, I don't want the driver to slow down, I want the driver to turn around"

And the best bit is that the NZ First voters agreed with me. They went to ACT and NZ First got booted out of Parliament. I know Winston is trying to stage a comeback and be all like 'I told you this would happen' - but every time he says this, the replies are always 'This is your fault'.

[husaberg]

Well dont overlook the Coalition that Winston went into with Bolgers National government. Maybe it's not that coalitions are a disaster per se, more to do with the tail that wants to wag the dog.

Some also tend to over look any collation with act, the maori party, maui pacific, national or any other suitor they have had... you know, due to balance....or lack their off.

[R650R]

Screw you chippy. I gave you and Robertson the benefit of the doubt. I thought in face of a looming election you would do a decent budget. But no there’s 10 billion of new inflationary spending that’s just cost me about 0.5% on my home loan update.
I can take that hit but boy I feel sorry for those not so well off. There’s pain coming for many I hope they vote accordingly….

[TheDemonLord]

Screw you chippy. I gave you and Robertson the benefit of the doubt. I thought in face of a looming election you would do a decent budget. But no there’s 10 billion of new inflationary spending that’s just cost me about 0.5% on my home loan update.
I can take that hit but boy I feel sorry for those not so well off. There’s pain coming for many I hope they vote accordingly….

Time, once again, being awfully vindicating.

[neels]

Time, once again, being awfully vindicating.
For fucks sake, disagreeing with everything and then occasionally being right is not vindication, it's just playing the odds. Betting black or red on the roulette wheel would give you the same success rate.

[TheDemonLord]

For fucks sake, disagreeing with everything and then occasionally being right is not vindication, it's just playing the odds. Betting black or red on the roulette wheel would give you the same success rate.

I don't disagree with everything, my position has been that Labour are a bunch of Socialists and will do all the wrong things that Socialists always do.

Then people complain and say I should give them the benefit of the doubt, then in short order they go ahead and prove me right.

[sugilite]

Its just another one of your fake victory laps mate. OMG a bunch of pollies are spending wads of cash. What's your next bold prediction, tomorrow is going to be Friday?
one mob blows it on ill planned social policies, and making their mates wealthy, the other team cuts services and makes their mates very rich, all the while professing fake as fuck fiscal responsibility.
what a steller choice us voters have :sick:

[Al Bundy 4eva!]

I don't disagree with everything, my position has been that Labour are a bunch of Socialists and will do all the wrong things that Socialists always do.

Then people complain and say I should give them the benefit of the doubt, then in short order they go ahead and prove me right.

I agree with your post 100% Mr Lord, unfortunately the sheep who tend to be blue collar workers of this forum are usually left wing voters who are easily manipulated by previously attractive leaders, mainstream media, the unions and woke Bob they met at the last bike meet

They will always follow heard because that is where they feel safe.

[TheDemonLord]

Its just another one of your fake victory laps mate. OMG a bunch of pollies are spending wads of cash. What's your next bold prediction, tomorrow is going to be Friday?
one mob blows it on ill planned social policies, and making their mates wealthy, the other team cuts services and makes their mates very rich, all the while professing fake as fuck fiscal responsibility.
what a steller choice us voters have :sick:

I think the actual phrase I used was:

"A Tiger can't change it's stripes."

Specifically to Chris, not to pollies in general.

This isn't a fake victory lap - I told you that Chris H is just a continuation of Stalinda and that the 'dumping' of 'unpopular' policies wasn't a genuine change of direction but just smoke and mirrors to dupe the voters.

The budget has removed any vestiges of doubt that this is the case. And just so we are clear - here's how I called it: How do you argue against any of the unpopular policies of Labour, if you adopt the Left-Wing viewpoint on any of the issues? You cannot, therefore any dump was only a temporary set-back.

[sugilite]

What an amazing rebuttal - not.
remove the "s" of my politicians, then every other word is accurate.
You essentially predicted a politician would stay a politician. Awesome prediction.

fake victory lap stands.

[TheDemonLord]

What an amazing rebuttal - not.
remove the "s" of my politicians, then every other word is accurate.
You essentially predicted a politician would stay a politician. Awesome prediction.

fake victory lap stands.

That is to completely miss the point: To be in the Labour party (as it currently stands) means to hold certain beliefs about the world. If you hold those beliefs, you have no philosophical basis to say that any of the unpopular policies are wrong. Therefore they were always going to come back.

Labour, being the bunch of Socialists that they are, think that if they just spend a little bit more of other people's money - then they'll finally get the Utopia that Saint Marx promised.

I can rag on other politicians for different reasons - but in this specific case, it's not about Politicians in general, it's about Left-wing presuppositions.

[sugilite]

Ohhhhh, thank you for clearing that up, so you predicted a labour poli would remain a labour poli. Amazeballs.
"Imagine" if a word count actually added weight to a concept that can be summed up in one sentence. <_<

[TheDemonLord]

Ohhhhh, thank you for clearing that up, so you predicted a labour poli would remain a labour poli. Amazeballs.

Well, considering everyone else was talking about how it's a new direction and it's not the same Labour etc.

I think it is Amazeballs - I called it early and I called it right.

[sugilite]

And by everyone, you mean barely anyone I presume.

[R650R]

Fluff news has a savage opinion piece on chippie today. Nothing at all to do with the empty public journalism fund lol

[pritch]

Fluff news has a savage opinion piece on chippie today. Nothing at all to do with the empty public journalism fund lol

Apparently the author of that piece considers himself an expert on morals? Google him and you find this, also on Stuff.

"Grant’s first application to be admitted to the association was rejected in June on character grounds because of his historical convictions for fraud. He was jailed for 18 theft, forgery and conspiracy to defraud convictions in 1994,"

[sugilite]

With credentials like his Pritch, one would think he would be running for government rather than writing about it.

[husaberg]

Apparently the author of that piece considers himself an expert on morals? Google him and you find this, also on Stuff.

"Grant’s first application to be admitted to the association was rejected in June on character grounds because of his historical convictions for fraud. He was jailed for 18 theft, forgery and conspiracy to defraud convictions in 1994,"


He was jailed for 18 theft, forgery and conspiracy to defraud convictions in 1994, for offences when he was aged between 21 and 27.
The board said the offending was clearly premeditated and involved careful planning. He had not repaid his victims.

“We are left with significant doubt about the extent of Mr Grant’s offending, his insight into it and the degree to which he has been open about it. We are therefore not satisfied that Mr Grant can confidently be regarded as a person of good character under the rule.”

i am sure he would be tough on crime.......

[R650R]

Apparently the author of that piece considers himself an expert on morals? Google him and you find this, also on Stuff.

"Grant’s first application to be admitted to the association was rejected in June on character grounds because of his historical convictions for fraud. He was jailed for 18 theft, forgery and conspiracy to defraud convictions in 1994,"

I’m sure by now you’ll know that I don’t hold anyone at or associated with Fluff news with any level of regard. Merely commenting on turning tide as all rats jump ship

[pritch]

Dunno where to park this so thought it might as well go here. It takes a few minutes but is interesting. It's a pity it didn't include a few more because Britain and the USA are both currently around 120%.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwTopI-rb4c

[R650R]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132215055/media-regulation-plan--a-censors-greatest-dream

[TheDemonLord]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132215055/media-regulation-plan--a-censors-greatest-dream

"The second Amendment defends to First"

[pete376403]

"The second Amendment defends to First"

What relevance does the US Constituton have to NZ?

[TheDemonLord]

What relevance does the US Constituton have to NZ?

I'm pointing out that there's a very good historical set of precedents where first Firearms are restricted, then Speech is restricted.

And it's no surprise that there's usually a Socialist behind it.

[sugilite]

When it comes to firearms, I'm more than happy for NZ not to become a little America. I don't think that makes me a socialist marxist or wharevathefuck flavor is being banded around the forum today.

Just saw the Labor Woods debacle on a news blurb, for the love of God, the man was told 6 times to sell the shares. Why is he still in parliament at this point?
The arrogance of him and some other labor mp's reminds me of the 2nd and 3rd term nats arrogance. :sick:

[TheDemonLord]

When it comes to firearms, I'm more than happy for NZ not to become a little America. I don't think that makes me a socialist marxist or wharevathefuck flavor is being banded around the forum today.

I'd prefer it go back to the way it was. Everyone was happy. Maybe a few changes around some of the sillier rules - but otherwise it worked. Until Stalinda tried to centralize the licence vetting process that allowed Fuckwith McAussie to get his licence.

It's funny how all the Arms Officers who were told they were being made redundant got their Job security back, really fast after March 2019. A cynical man might suggest that if the truth came out, that it would reflect poorly on the Government and be an inconvenient fact getting in the way of their little Gun Grab.


Just saw the Labor Woods debacle on a news blurb, for the love of God, the man was told 6 times to sell the shares. Why is he still in parliament at this point?
The arrogance of him and some other labor mp's reminds me of the 2nd and 3rd term nats arrogance. :sick:

I've seen the bleating about that - not surprised, but I'll be honest - that ranks pretty minor in the grand scheme of things compared to the crimes against NZ committed wholesale by the Labour Government.

[pritch]

What relevance does the US Constituton have to NZ?

There are a great many clips on YouTube of Americans trying to explain the US Constitution to cops who, although sworn to uphold it, seem unaware of the contents.

I'm awaiting the first clip showing some clown in this country explaining to a cop that his rights are protected under the First, Fourth, or Fifth Amendment. There is already a clip showing an Irish guy doing this, in Ireland. The cops were amazingly tolerant, if mildly amused, but eventually they impounded the car. His mother's car.

[caseye]

Cunts got no Balls, Wood should be so far up the Fucking WaZoo by now that nobody can see him!
Thought at first he might have actually had a handle on things, butt, no, just like Jacklinda:bash::angry2::mad::killingme:killingme , another fucking commie!.
Shit, looking at this, I probably should have stuck it in Friday Rant!

[TheDemonLord]

Cunts got no Balls, Wood should be so far up the Fucking WaZoo by now that nobody can see him!
Thought at first he might have actually had a handle on things, butt, no, just like Jacklinda:bash::angry2::mad::killingme:killingme , another fucking commie!.
Shit, looking at this, I probably should have stuck it in Friday Rant!

Now, who was it from the outset said that a Tiger couldn't change their stripes... :whistle::whistle::whistle:

[pete376403]

When it comes to firearms, I'm more than happy for NZ not to become a little America. I don't think that makes me a socialist marxist or wharevathefuck flavor is being banded around the forum today.

Just saw the Labor Woods debacle on a news blurb, for the love of God, the man was told 6 times to sell the shares. Why is he still in parliament at this point?
The arrogance of him and some other labor mp's reminds me of the 2nd and 3rd term nats arrogance. :sick:

Woods probably no worse than Collins, with her and her husbands dealings with China, and the exporting of swamp kauri, among other things, that if not illegal, certainly danced around the fringes

[husaberg]

Woods probably no worse than Collins, with her and her husbands dealings with China, and the exporting of swamp kauri, among other things, that if not illegal, certainly danced around the fringes

12 times though thats impossible to defend....What a tosser, i hope he's biffed permanently
John Banks gave his own company a bullet proof vest contact when he was minister for police
John key had a scandal about his share assets but he was pure teflon


Labour has accused John Key of lying over his ownership of Tranz Rail shares amid revelations the National Party leader failed to fully disclose his interests.
Mr Key's interests became an issue earlier this year when Labour claimed a conflict of interest because he had asked parliamentary questions about the Government's planned buyback of the country's rail tracks while he still had a shareholding in the rail operator.
Despite his role at the time as National's associate transport spokesman, he did not disclose his shareholding.
When Mr Key was questioned on the issue this year he said his family trust had held 30,000 shares in the company, but had sold them on June 9 and June 12, 2003.

Pansy Wong financial impropriety with deals with husbands company and transrail and travel perks
Philip Tito Feild free labour on his mansions in exchange for imigation help when he ws imigration minister
The entire National party with the donations and 100K for MP


Collins did other stuff like when her hubbys firms digger pieced the mardsen point oil line and she was minister of energy.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/18/thousands-stranded-in-new-zealand-after-digger-punctures-jet-fuel-pipe


Thats so funny nearly as funny as R650R wanting it nationalised.....
what you will never see is an admission from either they cocked it up

Mardsen point lot about 48 million due to Crusher Collins husbands kauri log company digging up the pipeline when she was MINISTER OF ENERGY


https://eitr545824759.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/screenshot-2020-08-09-at-8.20.03-am.png?w=793&h=&zoom=2
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/09/1...t-allegations/
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/09/17/how-lucky-is-judith-collins-that-media-are-too-busy-chasing-labour-sex-assault-allegations/
https://eitr545824759.wordpress.com/2020/08/08/judith-collins-david-wong-tung-and-the-oravida-kauri-ltd-ruakaka-connection-and-that-broken-marsden-point-fuel-line-breakage-that-caused-nz-48m-in-economic-damage-no-one-has-subsequently-been-charged/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/brian-...G62QT6YWBA5NM/
https://fyi.org.nz/request/6595-invo...kland?unfold=1
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-...AXSK24YQB4X5A/
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20190925_054675000/peters-winston
https://fyi.org.nz/request/6595-involvement-of-kauri-ruakaka-limited-in-the-oil-pipeline-rupture-between-whangarei-and-auckland?unfold=1
https://www.1news.co.nz/2019/09/16/n...48m-in-damage/




All you ever need to know about Pipecrusher collins

ever wonder why she was prevented from using the honorable title by key (http://After the 2014 election, John Key left Collins off the &quot;Roll of the Honourables&quot; due to the ongoing inquiry into her role with Adam Feeley. This made her ineligible to use the title 'The Honourable)

https://eitr545824759.wordpress.com/2020/08/08/judith-collins-david-wong-tung-and-the-oravida-kauri-ltd-ruakaka-connection-and-that-broken-marsden-point-fuel-line-breakage-that-caused-nz-48m-in-economic-damage-no-one-has-subsequently-been-charged/

Judith Collins/David Wong-Tung and the Oravida Kauri Ruakaka Limited connection and that broken Marsden Point fuel line breakage that caused NZ $48m in economic damage no one has subsequently been charged.

4.15 Kauri Ruakaka Ltd (KRL),[4] which is a local sawmill, owned the digger. The manager of KRL confirmed to our investigator that he arranged and paid for its transport on each of these occasions.[5] KRL sometimes bought kauri logs from the contractor.[6] KRL did not charge for the use of the digger or pay the contractor for his time.

4.16 The person from the transport company who delivered the digger to the Ruakākā property in August 2014 told us that he understood it would be used to look for swamp kauri. That is what was recorded on the relevant invoice.

4.17 Our investigator talked with two other property owners in a nearby area who had allowed the same contractor to dig on their land under similar arrangements. They had been approached in the same way and all the arrangements were based on “a handshake” rather than any written contract.

The sequence of work on the property
4.18 A neighbour told us that he saw someone using the digger right over the pipeline area around these dates, but he could not see the person driving it. He stopped his car and waved at the driver to indicate that he should stop but he did not know whether the driver saw him. He stopped at the top of the driveway to try to call the 0800 number on the sign there that warned about the RAP, to let them know what was happening, but the call did not connect. He did not follow up and try again later.

4.19 Our investigator spoke to the person who it seemed was likely to have been operating the digger. When NRC had spoken to this person during their investigation in 2017, he had said that he could not remember being there or working on the property. However, he confirmed to our investigator that he had been using the digger to look for logs on the property in August 2014 and that he had operated the digger in the area over the pipeline. He stated that he had only smoothed out the land in that area and he had not struck the pipe. He had not returned to the property after that.

4.20 The landowner told us that when he went to the property after the digger had gone, he was very angry at the way the land had been left. He said here were holes everywhere, which meant that it was not safe for his animals, and kauri stumps and logs had been left sitting there. He confirmed that there was a big hole near the pipeline, perhaps about 1 to 1.5 metres deep and over a large area. The pipe itself was not visible when he saw the hole. He said that it did not occur to him that he should tell anyone about the digging.

Guess what krl was previously called oravida Kauri
350213
https://www.greystar.co.nz/news/kauri-log-digger-damaged-fuel-pipeline/



https://opencorporates.com/companies/nz/3518811


https://www.nowtolove.co.nz/celebrity/celeb-news/judith-collins-untold-love-story-3142

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/103324546/pipeline-leak-cost-refining-nz-143m


August 24-28, 2014 – Oravida Kauri Contractor damages fuel line while digging for Kauri to export using loopholes.
During this timeline Judith Collins was the presiding Energy Minister overseeing the emergency and repairs to the fuel line
https://eitr545824759.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/screenshot-2020-08-09-at-8.20.03-am.png?w=2000&h=
https://eitr545824759.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/screenshot-2020-08-09-at-8.19.37-am.png?w=2000&h=
Marsden Point fuel line breakage that caused NZ $48m in economic damage

[R650R]

While it’s bad form and I agree with platforms analysis about related decisions he could have had interest in it’s still only $13k of shares, pocket money in todays high inflationary world.
Compared to some of the transgressions much worse by other ministers….

[F5 Dave]

Hey there where ya goin',
Not exactly knowin'
Who says you have to call just one place home.
He's goin' everywhere,
B.J. McKay and his best friend Bear.

He just keeps on movin',
Ladies keep improvin'
Every day is better than the last.
New dreams and better scenes,
And best of all I don't pay property tax.

(Yeah, that's what I'm going to do one of these days, Bear
I'm going to teach you how to sing, how'd you'd like that kid, huh?)

Rollin' down to Dallas,
My wheels provide my palace
I'm off to New Orleans or who knows where.
Places new and ladies, too,
I'm B.J. McKay and this is my best friend Bear.



Honk Honk.

Toot Toot.

[R650R]

Hey there where ya goin',
Not exactly knowin'
Who says you have to call just one place home.
He's goin' everywhere,
B.J. McKay and his best friend Bear.

He just keeps on movin',
Ladies keep improvin'
Every day is better than the last.
New dreams and better scenes,
And best of all I don't pay property tax.

(Yeah, that's what I'm going to do one of these days, Bear
I'm going to teach you how to sing, how'd you'd like that kid, huh?)

Rollin' down to Dallas,
My wheels provide my palace
I'm off to New Orleans or who knows where.
Places new and ladies, too,
I'm B.J. McKay and this is my best friend Bear.



Honk Honk.

Toot Toot.

Our relationships improving. You just gave me a semi 🤣😂🤣

[R650R]

This is the calibre of intellect we have working as MPs, how could he be so stupid as to not realise all these conflicts of interest…. or was it a case of thinking he could stay scandal free enough for no one to notice….

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132380317/michael-wood-resigns-as-minister-after-further-shareholdings-revealed

[TheDemonLord]

or was it a case of thinking he could stay scandal free enough for no one to notice….

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132380317/michael-wood-resigns-as-minister-after-further-shareholdings-revealed

I mean, when the majority of journalists and media organizations are being paid for by your party, it's not the most ridiculous thought...

[R650R]

Labour decided to get tough on crime. You know can’t use your kids to commit crime for you…. I’d have thought there’s already laws covering that and how you would prove it is another story….

And you’ll get a tougher sentence if you bragged about your crime on social media… I suspect this will be the tool to make everyone have a govt issued I’d to log into internet otherwise agsin it’s a hard one to prove….

I’m
Sure the ram raiders are hanging up their keys already lol

Six years this lot have had and that’s what they come up with….

[pete376403]

Six years this lot have had and that’s what they come up with….

As opposed to nationals $2.74 per day tax cut and money to fix potholes.

[george formby]

As opposed to nationals $2.74 per day tax cut and money to fix potholes.

From the stats I read on that wee pothole snippet it's not enough to fix Aucklands roads let alone the rest of the country. Maybe every third pothole?

And just for a laugh teh new motorway north is suffering from a slow slip slip.

No wonder ADV bikes are top celery.

[pete376403]

From the stats I read on that wee pothole snippet it's not enough to fix Aucklands roads let alone the rest of the country. Maybe every third pothole?
And it would be good to know where the pothole money is to come from? Besides, an enterprising landlord could be renting out the potholes (with bond money to come from Kiwisaver)

(Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen) - "House? Why woulda say house? It were only a hole in the ground, covered by a couple foot o torn canvas. But they were house to us!

We were evicted from our hole in the ground. We had to go livin in lake.

You were lucky to have a lake.There were 150 of us, livin in shoebox at middle o' motorway."

[neels]

It really looks like both sides are struggling to come up with anything substantial to flog to the voters.

Almost as if they realise that anything they can do has fuck all influence on the external effects from overseas, so just trying to find the most populist fiddling around the edges that they can.

The variables seem to be how much the greens can get with their eat the rich and crucify the landlords policies, and what support Rimmer can get for jailing kids and pushing the poverty is your own fault line.

Then there's Winston, still a bit of an unknown quantity, and what will happen if the maori party manage to snag a few seats off labour.

Might be a close thing on election night, but likely that regardless of the outcome it will make fuck all difference to the life of the average punter.

[onearmedbandit]

q

Might be a close thing on election night, but likely that regardless of the outcome it will make fuck all difference to the life of the average punter.

Never a truer sentence spoken.

[R650R]

Wonder if Chris has decided what a women is yet….


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2pyosIspdM

[JimO]

10 chars....

[neels]

Chippy's shitfight just gets better and better....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300934071/live-justice-minister-kiri-allan-charged-after-car-crash-resigns-as-minister

[R650R]

Chippy's shitfight just gets better and better....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300934071/live-justice-minister-kiri-allan-charged-after-car-crash-resigns-as-minister

I see it as an opportunity for him to display good leadership. Watching news conference now the media are poking him but he’s handling it well.

On a side note a find it ironic a member of the labour party has suffered in part likely due to some of the effects of this govts policies over last six years that have damaged all of us.
On reflection it’s a good time to take mental health seriously of your friends and work colleagues.
It’s quite sad to see a successful person fall down in this manner.

[R650R]

More pointless costs burdened on businesses.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/132633569/businesses-to-share-supply-chain-and-operation-details-through-public-register-to-tackle-slavery

And yet another paper pusher job/jobs created in Wellington to oversee this new beauracracy

Every business that uses iPhones or electric cars will be guilty or any made in China components…

[husaberg]

More pointless costs burdened on businesses.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/132633569/businesses-to-share-supply-chain-and-operation-details-through-public-register-to-tackle-slavery

And yet another paper pusher job/jobs created in Wellington to oversee this new beauracracy

Every business that uses iPhones or electric cars will be guilty or any made in China components…

Yeah it's clearly a non issue in NZ:tugger:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/132110032/treated-as-slaves-former-gloriavale-women-recognised-as-employees-in-employment-court-triumph
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130782654/modernday-slavery-liquor-boss-gets-record-155m-in-fines-for-migrant-worker-exploitation
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122386866/bottleo-baron-accused-of-exploitation-obtained-107-visas-for-migrant-workers
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300562416/man-kept-as-slave-in-new-zealand-speaks-out

[neels]

More pointless costs burdened on businesses.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/132633569/businesses-to-share-supply-chain-and-operation-details-through-public-register-to-tackle-slavery

And yet another paper pusher job/jobs created in Wellington to oversee this new beauracracy

Every business that uses iPhones or electric cars will be guilty or any made in China components…
Just another overhead that 99.9973% of the time will be completely pointless, but with an election coming up it looks like they're doing something (probably badly, and probably something should have already been done ages ago)

I doubt a business is going to front up with details of their slave workers for the public register, in fact more likely to just hide them better.

A bit like the increase from 4 to 20+ pages for a tenancy agreement, most of which is compliance stuff that the dodgy landlords just ignore anyway.

Probably just a case of announce something, to distract from the coverage of the latest minister doing dumb shit.....

[husaberg]

Just another overhead that 99.9973% of the time will be completely pointless, but with an election coming up it looks like they're doing something (probably badly, and probably something should have already been done ages ago)

I doubt a business is going to front up with details of their slave workers for the public register, in fact more likely to just hide them better.

A bit like the increase from 4 to 20+ pages for a tenancy agreement, most of which is compliance stuff that the dodgy landlords just ignore anyway.

Probably just a case of announce something, to distract from the coverage of the latest minister doing dumb shit.....

According to te news, It only applies to businesses earning over 20 million in NZ a year.
It also only applies to their goods and supply chain.

[R650R]

I’m still getting a laugh out of this

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132778326/labour-promises-compulsory-financial-literacy-lessons-for-school-children-national-backs-the-idea

The old saying the blind leading the blind…..

On the plus side of your kids get a F in this class they will be gauranteed a govt job lol

[husaberg]

I’m still getting a laugh out of this

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132778326/labour-promises-compulsory-financial-literacy-lessons-for-school-children-national-backs-the-idea

The old saying the blind leading the blind…..

On the plus side of your kids get a F in this class they will be gauranteed a govt job lol

Well ,not everyone has the brains and higher level of education required to be a delivery driver like you, you know... oh wait (https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/man-with-down-syndrome-gets-job-with-ups-delivery-person/CUOZ6GVQQRDZTBRE7UCOC3LQ4U/) :psst:

[R650R]

Ohhhh talk dirty to me Chris.
Labour wants to pay five figure rebates on my house insulation and switching to electric hot water.
This $81 million dollar Lolly scramble only benefits a small part of population, good example of how they don’t think things through. Few people will have the budget to spend the required amount to get rebates by their own numbers

[neels]

Ohhhh talk dirty to me Chris.
Labour wants to pay five figure rebates on my house insulation and switching to electric hot water.
This $81 million dollar Lolly scramble only benefits a small part of population, good example of how they don’t think things through. Few people will have the budget to spend the required amount to get rebates by their own numbers
Actually I think a lot of people probably do, govt is paying 80% of cost of insulation, so for a 150sqm house that works out to only having to front up ~$600 to get ceiling insulation done.

Of course the logic of who gets it seems a bit odd, it would appear it's by postcode based on some sort of demographic average, rather than house value or income.

[R650R]

Actually I think a lot of people probably do, govt is paying 80% of cost of insulation, so for a 150sqm house that works out to only having to front up ~$600 to get ceiling insulation done.

Of course the logic of who gets it seems a bit odd, it would appear it's by postcode based on some sort of demographic average, rather than house value or income.

Yes that scheme has been popular about 100,000 homes.

But the new policy

https://www.labour.org.nz/news-household_rebates_energy_efficient_homes

It’s in black and white about 10,000 over three years

[neels]

Yes that scheme has been popular about 100,000 homes.

But the new policy

https://www.labour.org.nz/news-household_rebates_energy_efficient_homes

It’s in black and white about 10,000 over three years
Hadn't seen the latest addition to the current scheme.

I suspect you're probably correct, if it's $18k for 30% of the cost, people who can afford it and care enough would probably have done it anyway.

Clearly also a continuation of the agenda to get rid of gas in domestic houses so more people are entirely reliant on electricity to not freeze to death in winter. They tried the same with wood burners in canterbury, but the manufacturers are clever enough to build something that meets what was obviously intended to be impossible emissions requirements.

[pete376403]

Hadn't seen the latest addition to the current scheme.

I suspect you're probably correct, if it's $18k for 30% of the cost, people who can afford it and care enough would probably have done it anyway.

Clearly also a continuation of the agenda to get rid of gas in domestic houses so more people are entirely reliant on electricity to not freeze to death in winter. They tried the same with wood burners in canterbury, but the manufacturers are clever enough to build something that meets what was obviously intended to be impossible emissions requirements.

Necessity is the mother of invention. If there was no requirement to clean up the woodburner emissions, manufacturers would keep on cranking out the old designs - cost of development and manufacture long since amortized - therefore greater profits. I've got a late model Firenzo woodburner that came from an earthquake damaged home in ChCh. When it's going with dry hard wood, there is no visible smoke from the flue. Firenzo didn't design and build this our of some altruistic concerns for the Canterbury air quality.

[neels]

Necessity is the mother of invention. If there was no requirement to clean up the woodburner emissions, manufacturers would keep on cranking out the old designs - cost of development and manufacture long since amortized - therefore greater profits. I've got a late model Firenzo woodburner that came from an earthquake damaged home in ChCh. When it's going with dry hard wood, there is no visible smoke from the flue. Firenzo didn't design and build this our of some altruistic concerns for the Canterbury air quality.
Correct about the necessity.

I do remember when the new emission standards were introduced, and all existing fireplaces were given (I think) 15 years to be replaced. The question was asked of the Ecan people if a replacement fireplace could be installed, and the reply was an almost sarcastic 'only if the replacement meets the standard, and that doesn't exist', clearly the manufacturers took that as a challenge rather than just abandoning canterbury as a market

It seems people aren't going to get that option with gas appliances.

[R650R]

Wow just wow at govt Dept ineptitude and politics. Finally one of their policies is doing good but it’s struck a gliding on moment as Beryl and Tom now have too many applications to process.

It was a policy where HNZ tenants could rent to own or buy out their property, however it is now “oversubscribed” as they can’t keep up with applications. Now if they had any sense they would just let the free market administer the whole thing and give the banks a set of rules for lending and let it run itself.

The scheme basically lets you buy a home with 5% deposit and HNZ covers 25% of the mortgage until such time as you can handle that part yourself. It harks back to the good ol housing corp loan setup from the 70/80s where if you saved x amount you were gauranteed to get a loan.

So why limit the scheme…. Are they worried too many state houses are being “ sold” under scheme, are the books that bad there’s no money left???….

[sugilite]

So why limit the scheme…. Are they worried too many state houses are being “ sold” under scheme, are the books that bad there’s no money left???….

Probably, but they will just print/borrow more like every other Government does - despite one team trying to have you believe they don't do that. Hint, that teams official color rhymes with Poo.

[R650R]

How did Chris catch Covid??? Surely he’s 12xvaxxxed/boosted and been scanning and wearing masks and of course all his supporters will have been????
Could this be like Jacinda getting up the duff before the election going for sympathy vote?
Now the question is will our govt funded media pack do “ the right thing” and self isolate given how close they have been to him on the campaign trail?????
Could we have an election where they are all to crook to negotiate a coalition afterwards???

[onearmedbandit]

Now the question is will our govt funded media pack do “ the right thing” and self isolate given how close they have been to him on the campaign trail?????


You need to keep yourself up to date, even people in your own home don't need to self isolate any longer.

https://covid19.govt.nz/testing-and-isolation/if-you-have-covid-19/

[R650R]

What will Labour look like in three years time, will they recover in to something credible.
A lot of experience will be lost with those who didn’t win their electorates prob taking jobs elsewhere outside politics. Who will lead after Chris leaves???
I think their biggest mistake was legitimising the Green Party by giving them oxygen in coalition when they should have been in opposition benches. On top of greens taking labour votes the Maori seats are now firmly in Maori party hands and I think it will stay that way and increase Maori vote.
So what will be labours appeal???
Also in three years time another generation indoctrinated in the green culture at schools and universities will become voters….
How long will the scars take to heal???

[pete376403]

What will Labour look like in three years time, will they recover in to something credible.
A lot of experience will be lost with those who didn’t win their electorates prob taking jobs elsewhere outside politics. Who will lead after Chris leaves???
I think their biggest mistake was legitimising the Green Party by giving them oxygen in coalition when they should have been in opposition benches. On top of greens taking labour votes the Maori seats are now firmly in Maori party hands and I think it will stay that way and increase Maori vote.
So what will be labours appeal???
Also in three years time another generation indoctrinated in the green culture at schools and universities will become voters….
How long will the scars take to heal???

Why would you care? You seem to be fairly set on ACT and its policies

[R650R]

Why would you care? You seem to be fairly set on ACT and its policies

Because if they disintegrate most votes will migrate to greens and a little to Maori. Eventually down the track national is no longer flavour of the month.
Then the horrific spectre arises of a green-Maori coalition govt maybe even with Winston in tow!!!
For all labours faults they are nowhere near as kooky as the greens.

[neels]

For all labours faults they are nowhere near as kooky as the greens.

Well they weren't, now they're talking about putting the capital gains and wealth tax back on the program.

I can't see it being a winner given the shift to the right in the election, in a cost of living crisis I don't think they'll get back the middle income centrish voters by taking more money off them to fund the endless fringe group agendas that absorb tax revenue and produce nothing.

[R650R]

Well they weren't, now they're talking about putting the capital gains and wealth tax back on the program.

I can't see it being a winner given the shift to the right in the election, in a cost of living crisis I don't think they'll get back the middle income centrish voters by taking more money off them to fund the endless fringe group agendas that absorb tax revenue and produce nothing.

The left is always envious of what others have. The type of people who vote labour will happily do it at their own expense if it means the “ rich man” pays extra.
Sadly a lot of people don’t understand how much a “wealth” tax will cost themselves. Let’s say an average couple in their early 40s at moment manages to pay off a modest 700k house that in day 20 years time is worth a million dollars. A 1% wealth tax will be $10,000 cash every year thank you. And if you sell up to downsize ohh you’re getting downsized alright when you pay the capital Gai s tax afterwards unless you’ve managed to stay in same property all your life.

National only won this election because Labour went limp on crime. There is a high Indian population in the traditional labour seats that national took in Auckland. That’s only because all the dairy owners and their extended families were sick of being stabbed/ram raided and forgotten about. Once Nat/act clean crims out unless they do stellar performance they might be a one term wonder.

[husaberg]

The left is always envious of what others have. The type of people who vote labour will happily do it at their own expense if it means the “ rich man” pays extra.
Sadly a lot of people don’t understand how much a “wealth” tax will cost themselves. Let’s say an average couple in their early 40s at moment manages to pay off a modest 700k house that in day 20 years time is worth a million dollars. A 1% wealth tax will be $10,000 cash every year thank you. And if you sell up to downsize ohh you’re getting downsized alright when you pay the capital Gai s tax afterwards unless you’ve managed to stay in same property all your life.

National only won this election because Labour went limp on crime. There is a high Indian population in the traditional labour seats that national took in Auckland. That’s only because all the dairy owners and their extended families were sick of being stabbed/ram raided and forgotten about. Once Nat/act clean crims out unless they do stellar performance they might be a one term wonder.

Nice one, The only issue is Capital gains taxs were not expected to be on primary residences. So you suggesting it somehow was is either a lack of understand or a misrepresentation of facts.
Also the Fact pretty every other country in the world already has a form of CGT suggests your lefty's remark is utter twaddle...

[BMWST?]

The actual total vote that went to national is one of the lowest prcentages they have had. The fact that NZ first,Act,the greens also got a large share of the vote means that a lot of people arent particularly impressed with National either

[R650R]

It seems Labour doesn’t understand still why they lost. This (shadow) cabinet minister listing is inverted to what the public actually thinks is important…. Says it all really.

Labour's top 10:
Chris Hipkins - leader
Carmel Sepuloni - welfare, Pacific Peoples, Auckland issues
Grant Robertson - finance and racing
Megan Woods - climate change and energy
Willie Jackson - Māori development, broadcasting, employment
Ayesha Verrall - health, public service and Wellington
Kieran McAnulty - Shadow Leader of the House, housing, regional and local government
Willow-Jean Prime - children and youth
Ginny Andersen - police, violence prevention, social investment
Jan Tinetti - education and women

[R650R]

Chris is going full retard labelling opting out of UN Pheic pandemic policy as supporting conspiracy theories.
What the current govt is doing is saving us from giving away our sovereignty and independent decision making on health issues to the UN.
We can still vax and mask or take other measures as the govt of the day sees fit.

https://joannenova.com.au/2023/11/rare-signs-of-democracy-in-new-zealand-govt-asking-if-un-treaty-is-in-the-national-interest/


The “national interest test” proposed by New Zealand’s newly formed coalition—including the National Party, ACT, and NZ First—will be applied before accepting any “agreements from the UN and its agencies that limit national decision-making and reconfirm that New Zealand’s domestic law holds primacy over any international agreements.”

The Pandemic Treaty is one example of a UN agreement.

In November 2021, New Zealand and other World Health Organisation (WHO) Member States agreed to establish an Intergovernmental Negotiating Body to draft a Pandemic Treaty.

However, following the conclusion of public submissions on the pandemic treaty on Aug. 11, 2022, a common theme (pdf) was a concern that a new pandemic instrument would require “New Zealand to relinquish control of our domestic decision-making processes during a public health emergency of international concern (PHEIC) to the WHO, or otherwise reduce autonomy at the individual or country level.”
The Epoch Times has more details.
Here in Australia, the Foreign Minister says the WHO will have no legal authority to force things on us. (It will only have the right to do sneakery, deception, graft and intimidation, with unbridled help from all our academics, media, and our retirement funds).

[pritch]

What will Labour look like in three years time, will they recover in to something credible.


Possibly. History suggests they will begin working out new policies to appeal to various voter groups. Occasionally they have come up with policies that are aimed at people on the fringes and these policies tend to alienate people nearer the centre. Sometimes, though they get it right. We'll see.

As for lack of experience, they'll have more than the current PM and one of his deputies who have precisely zero Cabinet experience.

[R650R]

They did well to keep this quiet leading up to election…

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/301016530/how-a-developer-held-the-government-to-ransom-for-a-378-million-bailout

[pete376403]

They did well to keep this quiet leading up to election…

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/301016530/how-a-developer-held-the-government-to-ransom-for-a-378-million-bailout

What should they have done? Let the development go under and all the buyers loose their deposits? What would NACTFirst business-before-everything-else response be?

[R650R]

What should they have done? Let the development go under and all the buyers loose their deposits? What would NACTFirst business-before-everything-else response be?

Well instead of making false promises of 100,000 homes before 2017 election they should have done their homework and written out some decent contracts to lock in cost. Even better they could have set up a Minidtry of Works style govt infrastructure corporation with an apprenticeship element that would exponentially be increasing housing supply and skill base.
That’s if they really cared about providing housing instead of just window dressing.
Never mind the outrageousness of buying private homes on open market in competition with first home buyers pushing prices up. I was lucky to buy my place just before that kicked off as they had authority in my area to buy anything at up to 20k above valuation.

[pete376403]

Well instead of making false promises of 100,000 homes before 2017 election they should have done their homework and written out some decent contracts to lock in cost. Even better they could have set up a Minidtry of Works style govt infrastructure corporation with an apprenticeship element that would exponentially be increasing housing supply and skill base.
That’s if they really cared about providing housing instead of just window dressing.
Never mind the outrageousness of buying private homes on open market in competition with first home buyers pushing prices up. I was lucky to buy my place just before that kicked off as they had authority in my area to buy anything at up to 20k above valuation.

False promises are what every party calls their manifesto prior to election. So, a contract to lock in cost? K O had a contract but when the other half goes bankrupt, which is what was threatened, how is that going to be enforced? And, a Ministry of Works? Like the one that existed previously but was shut down by Richard Prebble / Roger Douglas (because private is always better than public) who went on to form ACT? Also, you sig line "Govt gives you nothing because it creates nothing - Javier Milei" - the Government (via that same Ministry of Works) created a lot, gave a lot to NZ

[R650R]

False promises are what every party calls their manifesto prior to election. So, a contract to lock in cost? K O had a contract but when the other half goes bankrupt, which is what was threatened, how is that going to be enforced? And, a Ministry of Works? Like the one that existed previously but was shut down by Richard Prebble / Roger Douglas (because private is always better than public) who went on to form ACT? Also, you sig line "Govt gives you nothing because it creates nothing - Javier Milei" - the Government (via that same Ministry of Works) created a lot, gave a lot to NZ

LetÂ’s just have a little history trip. The beginning of the end was in March 1988 with the Ministry of Works and Development Abolition Act 1988. In power at the time was David LangeÂ’s Labour govt since 26 July 1984. From there onwards we had Lange, Geoffrey Palmer and Michael Moore. National was not back in power til November 1990 with Jim Bolger.
Ironically it was Labour that led some of our biggest reforms including the deregulation of transport to allow trucks to compete with rail and coastal shipping. Yet weÂ’re always told itÂ’s national getting paid off by trucking companiesÂ…
Act wasnÂ’t formed til 96 so it basically happened on labours watch.
I agree the Ministry of works created a lot of awesome stuff in NZ and also employed some of my family. ItÂ’s one of the things (despite public opinion) that was done well by govt and still should be to avoid the profit gouging and create more jobs.
That Labour has never attempted to recreate it says a lot about them and govts in general. It says they really donÂ’t want full employment, it says they donÂ’t want to build infrastructure.
Just look at the recent disasters weather wise in Auckland and HB. We appreciate the help we did get from the army. But itÂ’s a drop in a bucket. A good leader could have created an infrastructure army, drafted all able bodied unemployed men given them truck licences and shovels. We could have had a thousand Hino tipper trucks and some Doosan loaders and diggers here in about six weeks.
But oh no the evo warriors and pen pushers have to shuffle numbers first.
Then once all thatÂ’s finished we could start building a new mega hydro dam for energy security.

[pete376403]

Act wasnÂ’t formed til 96 so it basically happened on labours watch..

Correct with the proviso that the extremists had taken over and Lange, the one who could possibly keep things back on track with, was dealing with illness (that ultimately killed him) and being pushed to one side. The PMs that followed, Palmer and Moore were shouted down by the Dougles/Prebble (the future ACT) faction. And so we ended up with the disaster that was Bolger (again, well-meaning but manipulated by Richardson). Funny how history repeats, PM Ardern being basically pushed from her position by a well funded right wing cabal, a sincere but ineffective placeholder (Hipkins) going into the election and now we have ended up with another potential National disaster PM being manipulated by ACT and NZF

[R650R]

The only time the words Ardern and well funded should appear in same sentence is if talking about the public interest journalism fund.
No one pushed her out, she climbed out of one of the biggest economic train wrecks ever created in NZ. I mean it wasn’t even a surprise as there were so many scandals leading up to it.

[R650R]

Hoho Ho merry Xmas. Journalist Agenda Lynch drops a bombshell here at 3min40 mark saying that “it was a deliberate tactic of Labour Party to leave fiscal booby traps and campaign operatives even boasted about it”

So when Willis calls it Economic Vandalism she’s 100% correct


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-zpH2GSO5o

[sugilite]

So when Willis calls it Economic Vandalism she’s 100% correct

I don't think it is a left right thing. I think it is traditional in NZ for the departing party to leave a bunch of turds floating in the bowl for the incoming party. Gives the incoming party years of "It was the last bunch that caused this mess" line of excuses. Labored was doing it for the last 6 years, and national4national for the last 9 years before that :rolleyes:

[pete376403]

I don't think it is a left right thing. I think it is traditional in NZ for the departing party to leave a bunch of turds floating in the bowl for the incoming party. Gives the incoming party years of "It was the last bunch that caused this mess" line of excuses. Labored was doing it for the last 6 years, and national4national for the last 9 years before that :rolleyes:

That would imply that the government (of whatever stripe) knows a long time in advance of the election whether they are going to get back in or not, and if not, make financial decisions that will hurt the incoming government. But what if they do, against all expectations, do get back in. Are they then going to blame themselves for the "financial mess" they inherited? I agree its par for the course for the incoming govt to waffle on about the finances, but whether there is in fact a mess is perhaps questionable. Dont overlook that this is the government is more or less promoting cigarette smoking as a way of making up the shortfall to pay for their promised tax cuts, so forgive me if I am less i than impressed by Willis' financial acumen.

[neels]

Dont overlook that this is the government is more or less promoting cigarette smoking as a way of making up the shortfall to pay for their promised tax cuts, so forgive me if I am less i than impressed by Willis' financial acumen.

Indeed, they really need to keep kiwis smoking, drinking, and driving or they're losing some serious revenue, $470m in tobacco tax for the 4 months to October is a decent chunk of money.

354094

When you add ACT making them bring back interest deductibiliity on rentals sooner than they wanted to and NZ First binning letting in foreign buyers and associated tax, they're going to struggle to make their numbers work.

[BMWST?]

LetÂ’s just have a little history trip. The beginning of the end was in March 1988 with the Ministry of Works and Development Abolition Act 1988. In power at the time was David LangeÂ’s Labour govt since 26 July 1984. From there onwards we had Lange, Geoffrey Palmer and Michael Moore. National was not back in power til November 1990 with Jim Bolger.
Ironically it was Labour that led some of our biggest reforms including the deregulation of transport to allow trucks to compete with rail and coastal shipping. Yet weÂ’re always told itÂ’s national getting paid off by trucking companiesÂ…
Act wasnÂ’t formed til 96 so it basically happened on labours watch.
I agree the Ministry of works created a lot of awesome stuff in NZ and also employed some of my family. ItÂ’s one of the things (despite public opinion) that was done well by govt and still should be to avoid the profit gouging and create more jobs.
That Labour has never attempted to recreate it says a lot about them and govts in general. It says they really donÂ’t want full employment, it says they donÂ’t want to build infrastructure.
Just look at the recent disasters weather wise in Auckland and HB. We appreciate the help we did get from the army. But itÂ’s a drop in a bucket. A good leader could have created an infrastructure army, drafted all able bodied unemployed men given them truck licences and shovels. We could have had a thousand Hino tipper trucks and some Doosan loaders and diggers here in about six weeks.
But oh no the evo warriors and pen pushers have to shuffle numbers first.
Then once all thatÂ’s finished we could start building a new mega hydro dam for energy security.

they had to compltely deregulate things because the ountry was about broke.Our wee economy was still stuck in the 60s. And let us not forget that not all public entities are fficient.Remmber the post office and its lead time to get a phone? The ministry of works did some great things but i bet that things were not always efficient. The ministry of works built a completely unauthorised rowing course /infrastructure in Twizel as part of the Waitaki power scheme.

[pete376403]

, drafted all able bodied unemployed men given them truck licences and shovels. We could have had a thousand Hino tipper trucks and some Doosan loaders and diggers here in about six weeks..
I'm sure the previously licensed truck drivers would be just thrilled about that. A glut of truck drivers is just what is wanted to drive down the hourly rate. Resale value of trucks would plunge as well, now there are a thousand extras on the road. Good idea.

[R650R]

I'm sure the previously licensed truck drivers would be just thrilled about that. A glut of truck drivers is just what is wanted to drive down the hourly rate. Resale value of trucks would plunge as well, now there are a thousand extras on the road. Good idea.

No one will be worried. Once established more work would come as we continue to grow nz.
When dairy farming exploded and Fonterra setup their own fleet it raised the bar as they paid more to get experienced safe drivers.

According to the Te Manatū Waka – Ministry of Transport there are about 4.4 million licenced vehicles in New Zealand. Of these, about 150,000 are heavy vehicles, but that includes buses and motor homes. About 30,000 trucks are used for commercial freight, and almost all of those involved in long distance trips will also tow heavy trailers.
Many of the heavier trucks are owned and operated by individuals and organisations not primarily involved in road freight, for example, tradespeople, developers and contractors, local councils, manufacturers, utilities (eg. power and gas companies), and other businesses.
Heavy trucks travel about three billion kilometres per year with heavy trailers completing about 1.4 billion kilometres in the same period, with one-third of the kilometres generated through freight and customer deliveries taking place in the urban environment and the balance servicing the wider inter-regional and hinterland economy. Some two-thirds of the truck fleet, predominantly 2-axle trucks, are involved with servicing the wider urban customers on a regular basis.

[R650R]

they had to compltely deregulate things because the ountry was about broke.Our wee economy was still stuck in the 60s. And let us not forget that not all public entities are fficient.Remmber the post office and its lead time to get a phone? The ministry of works did some great things but i bet that things were not always efficient. The ministry of works built a completely unauthorised rowing course /infrastructure in Twizel as part of the Waitaki power scheme.

Ah yes the gliding on mentality thanks to our pommy ancestors. But that’s just a leadership problem. SOE and govt depts now have chief executives setting targets and goals and keeping an eye on costs to some degree. The good old days of perk jobs on side with govt gear and resources are gone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neA3T2cJmOw&pp=ygUQR2xpZGluZyBvbiB0diBueg%3D%3D

[neels]

Ah yes the gliding on mentality thanks to our pommy ancestors. But that’s just a leadership problem. SOE and govt depts now have chief executives setting targets and goals and keeping an eye on costs to some degree. The good old days of perk jobs on side with govt gear and resources are gone.
You clearly haven't had to deal with a government organisation. Things which should be very simple and have established process in the real world take inordinately longer than they should, and are done completely backwards.

Either the people creating or executing their systems are incompetent, or they prefer to string it along for as long as possible to justify continued employment.

[R650R]

You clearly haven't had to deal with a government organisation. Things which should be very simple and have established process in the real world take inordinately longer than they should, and are done completely backwards.

Either the people creating or executing their systems are incompetent, or they prefer to string it along for as long as possible to justify continued employment.

Yes your right there classic case is NZTA often taking about 8 days to mail out a rego label if you buy online.
But often in private sector there exists meetings about meetings and similar stuff and so many people have to be consulted or included in discussions.
But this better than it used to be even if just a little bit lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg&pp=ygUbVHdvIHBhcmFsbGVsIGxpbmVzICBjb21lZHkg

[Black Knight]

I waited 6 weeks for NZTA to answer a request to see if one of my bikes was still in the "system"-they told me no but I doubt that.

[pritch]

No one pushed her out, she climbed out of one of the biggest economic train wrecks ever created in NZ.

That's basically bullshit. NZs economy was commented on favourably by the world bodies interested in such things. I saw just this morning that NZ is in the bottom 5% of countries rated by national debt to GDP. Being near the bottom of that list is a good thing. That certainly indicates responsible handling of the economy by successive governments including the most recent.

Luxon saying that Robinson was the worst finance minister ever was fact free propaganda. Apparently Ms Willis has a degree in English Literature, an unusual qualification for Minister of Finance but we'll see. Sadly though, if she fails to shine it will cost us all.

[nerrrd]

Disappointing to hear her blaming the previous government for not scoping the ferry upgrades adequately this morning, as if they would have had anything but the advice given to them by officials to go on.

Both she and Luxon are newbies to actually being in government, I suspect they're both getting a rapid and somewhat painful introduction to the realities involved.

[husaberg]

Disappointing to hear her blaming the previous government for not scoping the ferry upgrades adequately this morning, as if they would have had anything but the advice given to them by officials to go on.

Both she and Luxon are newbies to actually being in government, I suspect they're both getting a rapid and somewhat painful introduction to the realities involved.

i wonder if the resident ''brains trust'' below knows its a SOE....:niceone:


But that’s just a leadership problem. SOE and govt depts now have chief executives setting targets and goals and keeping an eye on costs to some degree.

[pete376403]

Disappointing to hear her blaming the previous government for not scoping the ferry upgrades adequately this morning, as if they would have had anything but the advice given to them by officials to go on.

Today, Labour finance spokesman Grant Robertson said Willis was wrong and it was KiwiRail that owned and managed the project.
As a state-owned enterprise, KiwiRail had an independent board that had made decisions about the project, he said.
“The previous Government acknowledged the commercial sensitivity around this project and has not sought to speak publicly about these matters.

“Ms Willis knows all of this and has instead chosen to play cheap politics with this important national infrastructure project.”

Willis using her degree in english literature to craft some bullshit, long on rhetoric and short on facts

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/grant-robertson-fires-back-at-nicola-willis-over-cook-strait-ferry-budget-blowout/HHZCLNPPINEXPJQAGGJOYSFUWQ/

[R650R]

Today, Labour finance spokesman Grant Robertson said Willis was wrong and it was KiwiRail that owned and managed the project.
As a state-owned enterprise, KiwiRail had an independent board that had made decisions about the project, he said.
“The previous Government acknowledged the commercial sensitivity around this project and has not sought to speak publicly about these matters.

“Ms Willis knows all of this and has instead chosen to play cheap politics with this important national infrastructure project.”

Willis using her degree in english literature to craft some bullshit, long on rhetoric and short on facts

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/grant-robertson-fires-back-at-nicola-willis-over-cook-strait-ferry-budget-blowout/HHZCLNPPINEXPJQAGGJOYSFUWQ/

About as independent as a Soviet fishing trawler working near a submarine base…

[R650R]

Full credit to Hipkins for finally fronting on Platform for an interview.
Ardern and Robertson were always scared of being asked the hard questions. Got to respect him for being in an arena where the host not “ on the payroll”.
Pretty boring interview so haven’t bothered to link.

Tough time ahead a lot of experience is fleeing the sinking ship.

[pete376403]

Follow up to Willis cancelling the ferry terminal etc - The new contract to build the new ferries is being cancelled with the Korean shipyard. But now they cant purchase replacements and there is a shortage of suitable secondhand boats. Re contracting with the yards for new boats will cost about 40% more, so Interislander will have to keep on plugging away with the near end-of-life boats for a while yet. Will not be a good look to Willis and NactFirst if there is another incident where a boat breaks sown, especially if it iresults in loss of life. Oh well, the rich beneficiaries of the tax cuts don't travel between their Auckland penthouses and their Queenstown weekenders by ferry anyway

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tide-starts-to-turn-on-nicola-willis-over-kiwirails-cook-strait-mega-ferries-georgina-campbell/Y34AG3V6ZVFO7PPFS4KEMKHYM4/

[neels]

Follow up to Willis cancelling the ferry terminal etc - The new contract to build the new ferries is being cancelled with the Korean shipyard. But now they cant purchase replacements and there is a shortage of suitable secondhand boats. Re contracting with the yards for new boats will cost about 40% more, so Interislander will have to keep on plugging away with the near end-of-life boats for a while yet. Will not be a good look to Willis and NactFirst if there is another incident where a boat breaks sown, especially if it iresults in loss of life. Oh well, the rich beneficiaries of the tax cuts don't travel between their Auckland penthouses and their Queenstown weekenders by ferry anyway

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tide-starts-to-turn-on-nicola-willis-over-kiwirails-cook-strait-mega-ferries-georgina-campbell/Y34AG3V6ZVFO7PPFS4KEMKHYM4/

I can kind of understand the thinking behind wanting to get out of a deal someone else agreed to that's going to cost the taxpayer over $1b for new infrastructure, although it is the primary freight link between the islands and small potatoes compared to the latest Auckland motorway proposals, not to mention consideration of whether the new plan will end up costing more than the old one before you pull the trigger.

While it's all good to get excited about doing stuff to show how badly the previous government had arranged things, you also have to be careful you don't saw off the branch you're sitting on....

[nerrrd]

I can kind of understand the thinking behind wanting to get out of a deal someone else agreed to that's going to cost the taxpayer over $1b for new infrastructure, although it is the primary freight link between the islands and small potatoes compared to the latest Auckland motorway proposals, not to mention consideration of whether the new plan will end up costing more than the old one before you pull the trigger.

While it's all good to get excited about doing stuff to show how badly the previous government had arranged things, you also have to be careful you don't saw off the branch you're sitting on....

I’m really starting to wonder if the long term National MPs and party members never actually explained the realities of governing to Luxon or Willis.

The fact that everything is breaking now after decades of underfunding by both National and Labour should be a clue. The current problems must be systemic, and won’t be solved by cancelling everything and turning the clock back to 2017. They were already f*cked back then.

Will they actually bring any fundamental changes to the table? I doubt it, so they’re just picking a different set of winners.

Take a look at any local coverage from any ‘western’ country, the complaints are all the same.

[pete376403]

I’m really starting to wonder if the long term National MPs and party members never actually explained the realities of governing to Luxon or Willis..

While the "long term nats / party members" are all (theoretically) part of the same team, it is quite possible that they are ok with watching the leadership fail if it enhances their own position come leadership selection time.

[R650R]

Your all forgetting private enterprise has been providing an excellent ferry service via bluebridge which was originally started just for the benefit of several trucking companies and has successfully grown.
Yes bluebridge has had its moments too of service failures but that’s the nature of the beast. It’s a piece of complicated heavy infrastructure where random failures and maintenance schedules will cause compounding delays at times. And few would be prepared to pay the ticket price that would fund a “spare” boat ready to go. You can’t just start these big engines up with no warning even if you were to press a spare boat into service.
In the old days it made sense for the govt to be involved but now we should just let private enterprise fill the gap.
Just look at the explosion of international cruise ships visiting us. Where there is a market free enterprise delivers the goods.
If anything the govt should be funding logistics ships for the navy given how vulnerable our nation is in a natural disaster. They could be doing a budget ferry service to provide jobs and training to new recruits and centrally positioned to respond to disaster assistance swiftly.

[nerrrd]

Your all forgetting private enterprise has been providing an excellent ferry service via bluebridge which was originally started just for the benefit of several trucking companies and has successfully grown.
Yes bluebridge has had its moments too of service failures but that’s the nature of the beast. It’s a piece of complicated heavy infrastructure where random failures and maintenance schedules will cause compounding delays at times. And few would be prepared to pay the ticket price that would fund a “spare” boat ready to go. You can’t just start these big engines up with no warning even if you were to press a spare boat into service.
In the old days it made sense for the govt to be involved but now we should just let private enterprise fill the gap.
Just look at the explosion of international cruise ships visiting us. Where there is a market free enterprise delivers the goods.
If anything the govt should be funding logistics ships for the navy given how vulnerable our nation is in a natural disaster. They could be doing a budget ferry service to provide jobs and training to new recruits and centrally positioned to respond to disaster assistance swiftly.

I'm pretty sure Kiwirail was a private enterprise not so long ago...it didn't turn out well.

And the Navy can't man the ships they already have.

Ideology won't solve these problems, pragmatism and expertise might – neither are exclusive to the public or private sectors.

[R650R]

I'm pretty sure Kiwirail was a private enterprise not so long ago...it didn't turn out well.

And the Navy can't man the ships they already have.

Ideology won't solve these problems, pragmatism and expertise might – neither are exclusive to the public or private sectors.

I’m talking about the boats, rail is another whole story with problems of its own more related to the small distances involved in our country and a few big mountains in the way.
We were lucky that what infrastructure we have was built when labour was cheap.

[R650R]

After condemning Nationals cuts to public service jobs Hopkins has shamelessly suggested people donate their tax cuts (cause nearly everyone’s getting something) to the Labour Party to help them back into power next time…
We’re not even in power anymore and we still want to take from you haha just priceless.

If they had any gumption they’d set up a givealittle page for all those made redundant by National and ask to donate tax cuts to that but no. Never had we had a clearer demonstration about who the socialist leadership really cares about during this cost of living crisis.

[husaberg]

After condemning Nationals cuts to public service jobs Hopkins has shamelessly suggested people donate their tax cuts (cause nearly everyone’s getting something) to the Labour Party to help them back into power next time…
We’re not even in power anymore and we still want to take from you haha just priceless.

If they had any gumption they’d set up a givealittle page for all those made redundant by National and ask to donate tax cuts to that but no. Never had we had a clearer demonstration about who the socialist leadership really cares about during this cost of living crisis.

Nationals like the republican parties big donors are Uber rich and big business. they raise far more cash than any other party and use that to buy more advertising and do stuff to make sure they stay in power stacking electoral districts and colleges etc
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-11-16/gerrymandering-voter-suppression-black-brown-voters-redistricting-south
https://www.propublica.org/article/electoral-maps-gerrymandering-texas-voting-elections-privilege
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/briefing/republicans-gerrymandering.html

I wonder what's in it for those big business to donate so much money.......
Trump on the other hand is such a champion of the downtrodden, After all he knows what it s like to start off poor with only a loan of 100 million..he collects off them all and them uses it for criminal activities and subversion...

[pete376403]

Donations to parties 2022 - National $10.3 million, ACT $4.2 million, NZF $1.8 Million, Labour $4.7 million. By that measure, if donations were an indication of support National should have been able to govern alone, yet they still required minorty party support to win.
https://elections.nz/democracy-in-nz/political-parties-in-new-zealand/party-donations-and-loans-by-year/