I tried, RC, I really did...

[Racing Dave]

… to ride from Christchurch to Akaroa at the new speed limit(s). This was the Tuesday before the recent school holidays, in the late morning, when I guessed that there would be minimum traffic.

From Tai Tapu to Little River the road flows nicely, there’s mostly good visibility, tighter bends are signed for a lower (recommended) speed and the surface is in good condition. What was 100km/h is now 80km/h. When you used to catch up to camper vans and the like, trundling along at 75km/h, you had a 25km/h margin when passing, to stay inside the speed limit. Now you have 5km/h. Mostly, it can’t be done legally, even in light traffic. What happens, of course, is that a line of drivers queue up behind the front vehicle, none of whom have the will to pass, but all of whom will follow the car in front at half to one second spacing. Thus, even a spirited competent driver (or rider!) must bulldoze his way in as one by one (or two by two) progress is made to get away from such tedium.

As an example, at the traffic-light signaled road works alongside Lake Forsyth, the line-up was camper van, stock truck, four cars, and then me on my bike. Once through on the green light, no-one showed any indication of wanting to do anything other than accept the 65km/h being imposed by the camper van. With a 15km/h margin for overtaking, I quickly made my way past them all.

From Little River to Hilltop the road is uphill, twisting with some tight bends but mostly in good condition. The previous speed limit was 100km/h and now it’s 60km/h. From my 50+ years of riding this road, I have observed that most cars don’t get much faster than this new limit anyway, but previously there was a 40km/h margin for legal passing. Now, there’s mostly no margin, and only very short ‘straights’ in which to make a move. Then I caught up to a concrete mixer truck, traveling at 20km/h. The slowest my R1200GSA can go in 1st gear without slipping the clutch is 20km/h… When visibility allowed, I was able to nip past, but for sure I wasn’t checking my speedo for compliance with the new limit.

At Hilltop, I turned for home.

The NZTA may have decided that it is ‘safer’ to have the new limits but my view is that for the majority of drivers who appear to be so concerned with not breaking the law, and who trust their over-reading speedos to keep them ‘safe’, they will drive in close formation convoys without any of them paying the least attention to what’s going on around them.
I expect that if or when something does happen, it may well involve several vehicles, as the road, at 80km/h, needs no special concentration and the less than one second following distances that I now see, will frustrate the hell out of those wishing to make steady progress, until eventually they ‘take a chance’ and it all goes wrong.

[rastuscat]

. The slowest my R1200GSA can go in 1st gear without slipping the clutch is 20km/h…

I feel like I've failed. You are better than that.:nono:

[Grumph]

I feel like I've failed. You are better than that.:nono:

Uphill, on that, I'd doubt it.

I agree with Dave's conclusions and suspect it's not the only road where commonsense has been over-ridden by virtue signalling.



I hate that term but lower speed limits simply for the sake of making traffic slower where there was no real problem can't be seen in any other light.

[onearmedbandit]

One of the more dangerous trips I've experienced on that road was traveling back from Akaroa in my car with the family recently. I noticed two police units on the way to Akaroa when my 16yr old was driving so on the return journey I kept to the 80kmh limit. I had car after car tailgate me, and some attempt dangerous overtakes due to frustration. I mentioned this to my sister whose job takes her across the South Island managing early learning centres, including the one at Little River to see if she had the same experience, which she had, and also said to me the locals she had spoken with (staff and parents) hated the change and would continue to drive at 100kmh. What a result!

[rastuscat]

In conflicting news, I towed the caravan to Akaroa Top Ten a few months back. The tow vehicle has no lack of power, so we pretty much stuck at the speed limit all the way.

Our observation was that there are now less lunatic overtaking man hoovers (coz I can't spell manoeuvre) than I had previously experienced.

"Calm" was the word I was struck with.

[onearmedbandit]

In conflicting news, I towed the caravan to Akaroa Top Ten a few months back. The tow vehicle has no lack of power, so we pretty much stuck at the speed limit all the way.

Our observation was that there are now less lunatic overtaking man hoovers (coz I can't spell manoeuvre) than I had previously experienced.

"Calm" was the word I was struck with.

Well that is conflicting indeed, but still (with no skin in the game any longer because I don't really ride that road now due to less interest in the way I used to ride it haha) I stand by my statement that it was one of the more dangerous drives I've had on that road.

Now don't get me started on the recent family trip to Wanaka. I hope the DoC driver of MWG279 got a bollocking for tailgating my daughter at 100kmh (gps checked) which I politely indicated he should stop doing, and then as he passed us the passenger indicated that we were wankers ha. While there were the odd idiot overtakes and other displays of driving for our entertainment I was surprised to notice the 10-15kmh speed increase of drivers as we got closer to ChCh.

[neels]

This applies to most of the roads around the peninsula now.

I had the unfortunate experience of following a car along the Summit Rd recently, with them randomly slowing almost to a stop without any warning and down to walking pace (and motorcycle first gear) around the corners, but quite happy to boot it up to 70k on the relatively few straight parts so no possibility of overtaking within the speed limit.

My most entertaining observation of late on a newly speed limit reduced road where the reduction has removed the overtaking opportunities, was watching someone use the slow vehicle lane to overtake a campervan, clearly the campervan driver didn't consider his vehicle or his driving wobbling along at 50-60k to be slow and saw no reason to move over.

Such fun.

[george formby]

This applies to most of the roads around the peninsula now.

I had the unfortunate experience of following a car along the Summit Rd recently, with them randomly slowing almost to a stop without any warning and down to walking pace (and motorcycle first gear) around the corners, but quite happy to boot it up to 70k on the relatively few straight parts so no possibility of overtaking within the speed limit.

My most entertaining observation of late on a newly speed limit reduced road where the reduction has removed the overtaking opportunities, was watching someone use the slow vehicle lane to overtake a campervan, clearly the campervan driver didn't consider his vehicle or his driving wobbling along at 50-60k to be slow and saw no reason to move over.

Such fun.

Strikes me their could be a lot of confusion about slow vehicle lanes. My local one can be mayhem! Been sat at or slightly over the posted limit and still been undertaken.
I chortle when the hasty driver spots the lane finishing with nowhere to go. I do relent and let them in.

[SaferRides]

There's a number of rural roads around Auckland with reduced limits. 80 is appropriate sometimes especially where there is residential development. But some make no sense at all, for example the 60 zone south of Orere Point.

It would be interesting to see what effect the reduced limits are having on safety, but I doubt that anyone is going to tell us.



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[husaberg]

It would be interesting to see what effect the reduced limits are having on safety, but I doubt that anyone is going to tell us.



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Did you all thing the road to zero was about zero road deaths'


its about 0km speed limits on all roads;)

[jellywrestler]

Did you all thing the road to zero was about zero road deaths'


its about 0km speed limits on all roads;)

dead right there

[husaberg]

dead right there

i thought i was being clever, turns out a day late and another dollar short

[Gremlin]

The slowest my R1200GSA can go in 1st gear without slipping the clutch is 20km/h…
I can help with that, you need the enduro transmission. It will get down to about 12kph I think, maybe 10kph on the GPS, then chug chug at no revs. Going to the clutch and you can get down to 6-8kph 2-up tracking people.

You're welcome :msn-wink:

[MD]

Well I'm grateful I learnt to ride in the 70s doing the Akaroa loop every weekend, when it was fun. Sounds like it's ruined now. Won't be long and the NZTA rot will spread across all our roads. And it won't have achieved any degree of improved driver quality. Maybe I left it too late buying the 675 Daytona last month.

The authorities have been faced with two choices for decades.
1. Tackle poor driving habits causing crashes at 100kph on open roads.
OR
2. Force these poor-quality drivers [along with all others] to crash at 80kpm and call it a successful outcome.

Oh, some will say, well by reducing the crash speeds we will save lives. Doh, that's tackling the symptom, not the cause. An experienced, observant (awareness of everything happening around them), courteous driver is better than a slower driving idiot texting on his phone, lighting a cigarette and eating a pie all while driving at 80kpm.

[Hoonicorn]

Oh, some will say, well by reducing the crash speeds we will save lives. Doh, that's tackling the symptom, not the cause. An experienced, observant (awareness of everything happening around them), courteous driver is better than a slower driving idiot texting on his phone, lighting a cigarette and eating a pie all while driving at 80kph.

Of course it will save lives, as crashes won't be as severe. But if reducing speeds to 80 saved lives, imagine how many more lives could be saved if the speed is reduced to 60? The Labour government policy on roading was to focus on road safety and reducing road deaths, this is that policy in action. People wanted it, people got it. The question is which people are deciding these policies? It was Green cyclist lobby groups that demanded Learner and Restricted licences should expire after 5 years instead of 10 because it was unsafe for cyclists to be on the road with drivers on learner/restricted licences, yet any adult regardless of road code knowledge can ride a bicycle.

[rastuscat]

An experienced, observant (awareness of everything happening around them), courteous driver is better than a slower driving idiot texting on his phone, lighting a cigarette and eating a pie all while driving at 80kpm.

That's the thing. If drivers and riders were better (which is within our control) there likely wouldn't be this driver to lower speed limits.

And still we complain when they do, despite the general populations resistance to actually do something to improve.

Everyone wants change. Nobody wants to change.

[Racing Dave]

If drivers and riders were better (which is within our control) there likely wouldn't be this driver to lower speed limits..

I'm sure that it's been said before, but pretty much everyone thinks that they are a better than average rider. Only half of them are correct...

[jim.cox]

Of course it will save lives, as crashes won't be as severe. But if reducing speeds to 80 saved lives, imagine how many more lives could be saved if the speed is reduced to 60?

Road To Zero

Zero Speed = Zero Harm

Nobody allowed on the roads = no road deaths

That's where this is going...

[rastuscat]

Road To Zero

Zero Speed = Zero Harm

Nobody allowed on the roads = no road deaths

That's where this is going...

Standing outside a local primary school this morning. Speed limit used to be 50 kmh. But everyone did 30 kmh.

Now the speed limit is 30 kmh. And everyone does ......30 kmh.

There are many dumb speed limits in this country.

[jim.cox]

Standing outside a local primary school this morning. Speed limit used to be 50 kmh. But everyone did 30 kmh.

Now the speed limit is 30 kmh. And everyone does ......30 kmh.

There are many dumb speed limits in this country.


Traffic Engineering suggests that 85% of the population will traverse a given section of road at the same speed.

This speed depends on factors like lane width, shoulder clearance, sight distance etc.

It is often referred to as the 'design speed' of the road

When building new highways we use a design speed of 120km/h

So we are expecting and encouraging 85% of the population to travel at 120 - while artificially restricting them to 80 - that's a form of entrapment that's really going to end well


We could save the country lots of money, and people lots of aggro, if we just designed and built for 80kmh from the get go

[Grumph]

We could save the country lots of money, and people lots of aggro, if we just designed and built for 80kmh from the get go

Entropy combined with piss poor maintenance takes care of that. In less than 5 years most new roads are only fit for 80kph anyway.

[Berries]

Traffic Engineering suggests that 85% of the population will traverse a given section of road at the same speed.

This speed depends on factors like lane width, shoulder clearance, sight distance etc.

It is often referred to as the 'design speed' of the road

When building new highways we use a design speed of 120km/h

So we are expecting and encouraging 85% of the population to travel at 120 - while artificially restricting them to 80 - that's a form of entrapment that's really going to end well

We could save the country lots of money, and people lots of aggro, if we just designed and built for 80kmh from the get go
Kind of, but not quite. The speed that 85 percent of traffic is doing used to be used as guide for working out whether a speed limit was in the region of being appropriate. As you said, people picked their speeds based on lane width, visibility, side friction, volumes etc etc. The reason people speed up in passing lanes as pointed out the other day. They still do chose their travel speed this way, and always will, but future speed limits will be set on the 'safe and appropriate speed' which while still supposedly based on alignment, volumes, intersection/access frequency etc has the bar set lower, so what used to be 100 will now be 80, what was 50 will be 40 or 30. Will take time to adjust.

The design speed of a road amongst other things dictates the radius of the curves. If you did use an 80km/h design speed you would have vertical and horizontal curves that are not an issue with a 110km/h design speed and this is where your crashes will occur.

Mind you, if you want an example of design speed and entrapment just look at the Dunedin southern 'motorway'. 110km/h design speed, meets all the attributes for a 110km/h speed limit as per what you have up north, barrier all the way, on and off ramps etc etc. Also built on a hill so it is the biggest fishing spot in the south with one person positioned on the overbridge and a fleet of cars parked on the on ramp for a quick chase before the pullover bay down the road. Still a bit dubious about them parking the mobile camera on the motorway but I will cross that one if ever get a ticket from it.

[jim.cox]

Mind you, if you want an example of design speed and entrapment just look at the Dunedin southern 'motorway'. 110km/h design speed, meets all the attributes for a 110km/h speed limit as per what you have up north, barrier all the way, on and off ramps etc etc. .

Or SH6 up the side of Lake Dunstan - 120km+ geometry and 100km taxation.

Did we waste our money?

Ditto Transmission Gully...

[FJRider]

I can help with that, you need the enduro transmission. It will get down to about 12kph I think, maybe 10kph on the GPS, then chug chug at no revs. Going to the clutch and you can get down to 6-8kph 2-up tracking people.

You're welcome :msn-wink:

About 10 years ago I rode my FJ1200 over to Akaroa on a Sunday. The usual "Weekend tourist" traffic both ways. The lowest gear (about 15/20 km/hr) I got to was 3rd on an uphill bit. I had no need to slip the clutch. I had more problem fighting the wind than traffic ... :pinch:

[FJRider]

Or SH6 up the side of Lake Dunstan - 120km+ geometry and 100km taxation.

Did we waste our money?

Ditto Transmission Gully...

The roads either side of Lake Dunstan are main tourist travel routes to Queenstown (about 90% are overseas drivers) with a large portion of the drivers having had little (or no) open road (NZ style) driving experience ... just multi-lane motorways. And about 20% of the traffic is campervan style vehicles (often traveling on packs of five or more).

In that area stick to the speed limit ... the cops often do the continual loop of the lake. 15-20 minutes apart. Posted speed limits are the limit. Few if any exceptions.

[FJRider]

Standing outside a local primary school this morning. Speed limit used to be 50 kmh. But everyone did 30 kmh.

Now the speed limit is 30 kmh. And everyone does ......30 kmh.

There are many dumb speed limits in this country.

I thought the "School Zone" speed limit was 40km/hr .. ?? :scratch:

[FJRider]

I'm sure that it's been said before, but pretty much everyone thinks that they are a better than average rider. Only half of them are correct...

And they ALL think ... "it" won't happen to them.


If it does "happen" to them ... it won't be their fault.




Apparently ... ;)

[Berries]

The roads either side of Lake Dunstan are main tourist travel routes to Queenstown (about 90% are overseas drivers) with a large portion of the drivers having had little (or no) open road (NZ style) driving experience ... just multi-lane motorways. And about 20% of the traffic is campervan style vehicles (often traveling on packs of five or more).

In that area stick to the speed limit ... the cops often do the continual loop of the lake. 15-20 minutes apart. Posted speed limits are the limit. Few if any exceptions.
I have always found the opposite, great road for fanging it, overtaking opportunities galore. Can't remember the last time I saw a cop along there, certainly not on Monday when I went over to QT. Great visibility so you should see them coming.


I thought the "School Zone" speed limit was 40km/hr .. ?? :scratch:
Nah. Going to be 30 in the future. And that includes rural schools unless the local council can come up with a good reason why it should be 60 and not 30. 'Total bollocks/unrealistic' is not considered a good reason apparently.

[rastuscat]

I thought the "School Zone" speed limit was 40km/hr .. ?? :scratch:

The 40 kmh limit was decided on 15 years ago when the standard speed limit was 50.

Then we realised that it should be based on vulnerable road user survivability, and that 30 kmh made more sense.

The 40s will be phased down to 30.

[FJRider]

The 40 kmh limit was decided on 15 years ago when the standard speed limit was 50.

Then we realised that it should be based on vulnerable road user survivability, and that 30 kmh made more sense.

The 40s will be phased down to 30.

When do they phase in the guy with a red flag walking in front of all motor vehicles again ... ??


Asking for a friend ... :shifty:

[rastuscat]

Asking for a friend

I'll be your friend. For beersies.

[FJRider]

I'll be your friend. For beersies.

I'll pass on your offer.

I know I won't ride forever ... :shifty:

[Racing Dave]

About 10 years ago I rode my FJ1200 over to Akaroa on a Sunday. The usual "Weekend tourist" traffic both ways. The lowest gear (about 15/20 km/hr) I got to was 3rd on an uphill bit. I had no need to slip the clutch. I had more problem fighting the wind than traffic ... :pinch:

Those 4-cylinder bikes are much smoother at the bottom end of the rev range than twins are, even allowing for BMW's heavy flywheel. When I bought my bike new in 2007, the special 'enduro' lower ratio fist gear wasn't an option.

[SaferRides]

The 40 kmh limit was decided on 15 years ago when the standard speed limit was 50.

Then we realised that it should be based on vulnerable road user survivability, and that 30 kmh made more sense.

The 40s will be phased down to 30.I wouldn't want to hit by a car at 30, thank you very much.

Much better to make the pedestrian/ road interface safer.



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[rastuscat]

I wouldn't want to hit by a car at 30, thank you very much.

Much better to make the pedestrian/ road interface safer.



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The survivability at 30.kmh is around 90%. Which is better than the way lower figure at 50 kmh or even 40 kmh.

Yes, pedestrians need to be more careful. But people make mistakes. This includes drivers, riders, pedestrians et al.

[SaferRides]

The survivability at 30.kmh is around 90%. Which is better than the way lower figure at 50 kmh or even 40 kmh.

Yes, pedestrians need to be more careful. But people make mistakes. This includes drivers, riders, pedestrians et al.

Yes, but in this context, survivability probably means some degree of permanent disability. It might make the road toll figures look better but is still not a good outcome.

Improving occupational safety usually requires a combination of measures to reduce accidents and mitigate harm. All I'm seeing at the moment on road safety is reduced speed limits.

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[jim.cox]

Yes, but in this context, survivability probably means some degree of permanent disability. It might make the road toll figures look better but is still not a good outcome.

Improving occupational safety usually requires a combination of measures to reduce accidents and mitigate harm. All I'm seeing at the moment on road safety is reduced speed limits.



More pedestrian's than cyclists get hurt every year.

When are we going to make them wear helmets and hi-viz too?

[pete376403]

More pedestrian's than cyclists get hurt every year.

When are we going to make them wear helmets and hi-viz too?
How many of these pedestrians are bowled by cars driving on the footpath? Probably not a lot, so when are we going to enforce pedestrians staying off roads except at proper crossings?

[jim.cox]

How many of these pedestrians are bowled by cars driving on the footpath? Probably not a lot, so when are we going to enforce pedestrians staying off roads except at proper crossings?

Roads are for everyone, with a right to pass and re-pass at will.

It is pedestrians in the carriageway you're talking about.

That risk will reduce once they ban private vehicles.