Waimakariri Speed Limit Consultation

[rastuscat]

Y'all have views on speed limits, and what's happening regarding changes to those limits.

Waimakariri residents should get onto this, have your say. Consultation is open on the proposed changes.

https://letstalk.waimakariri.govt.nz/speed-management-plan-2023-27

You would be surprised how important this step in the process is. It influences outcomes.

[jim.cox]

You would be surprised how important this step in the process is. It influences outcomes.

Complete waste of time

More pre-made decisions

With a box-ticking 'consultation'

Only important to prevent a judicial review later

[BMWST?]

agree.we had a "consultation " The plan was already formulated .The only thing our consultation preventd was a complete removal of car parks in our street. When it was pointed out that there was a house that had no off street parking (the council claimed all houses had off street parking) and asked where are visitors or tradesman,posties or couriers are s upposed to stop( initial proposal was for no stopping both side of street) we got some parking back. but the initial plan of the council proceeded.

[rastuscat]

Complete waste of time

More pre-made decisions

With a box-ticking 'consultation'

Only important to prevent a judicial review later

I held that same view myself. Until I worked on the inside. The decision makers on this are elected members, so are influenced by public opionion.

For example, if 80% of submitters are positive about the plan and it gets implemented, the 20% will all say it was a waste of time. And you rarely hear from the 80%, only the 20%.

You might actually be surprised how influential public opinion is. You don't get the chance to have a say outside of elections, most of the time. So when you do get to have a say, why not do it.

Submissions full of foul language and insults don't get listened to, so if you want your view listened to, make it civil and well reasoned.

Or not. It's not compulsory.

[R650R]

I held that same view myself. Until I worked on the inside. The decision makers on this are elected members, so are influenced by public opionion.

For example, if 80% of submitters are positive about the plan and it gets implemented, the 20% will all say it was a waste of time. And you rarely hear from the 80%, only the 20%.

You might actually be surprised how influential public opinion is. You don't get the chance to have a say outside of elections, most of the time. So when you do get to have a say, why not do it.

Submissions full of foul language and insults don't get listened to, so if you want your view listened to, make it civil and well reasoned.

Or not. It's not compulsory.

At local govt level perhaps it works as you say.

But up here plenty of people made submissions about the 80k speed limit for the Napier-Taupo Rd and we still got shafted by LTNZ. Anyone who travelled the road frequently would know the bulk of drivers who use that road were lucky to be driving below a hundred let alone endorse 80.

It was a good example of why you shouldn’t complain too much. A page was created publicly documenting the poor state of repair on some sections and then the media got involved and boom we got shafted with a 80k limit.
And guess what people are still dying and being seriously injured up there.

A new hazard has been created by the 80 k limit. Traffic now bunches up with some law abiding citizen up front doing 79k. Then when you finally get to a passing line it’s like a green flag rolling restart of a NASCAR race.

[Jantar]

I made a submission to our local council and it was very well received by the committee. I sent in an abstract of my submission and asked to be heard in person. The main points I made were:

This submission covers two main areas

General method of selecting appropriate speed limits

Specific safe speeds for motorcyclists


On the first I pointed out that there are two main methods of selecting speed limits

Engineering Approach - A two-step process where a base speed limit is set according to the 85th percentile speed, the design speed for the road, or other conditions. This base speed limit is adjusted according to traffic and infrastructure conditions such as pedestrian use, median presence, etc.

Safe System Approach - The safe systems approach emphasizes that some degree of roadway user error will always occur, and that such errors should not result in a fatality or serious injury.

Tactics such as traffic calming, physical separation of roadway users, and treatments that enhance visibility of vulnerable users to give drivers greater reaction time are safe systems. A safe systems approach requires a holistic planning of the roads and interconnected factors provide for optimal safety.

The Institute of Transportation Engineers recommends the Enginerring approach, as did NZTA prior to Labour/Greens setting a new directive. They are pushing for the Safe Systems approach, but without holistic planning that goes with it.

https://www.ite.org/technical-resources/topics/speed-management-for-safety/setting-speed-limits/


I also pointed out that in London where a 20 mph (32 kmh) limit was tried that there was massive non compliance.

20mph limits: the case against
One of the biggest problems with 20mph limits is that almost nobody obeys them. Official Government statistics show that in 2021, 87% of drivers broke 20mph speed limits. Compare that to 30mph limits, where 51% of drivers exceeded that speed, and it’s clear that compliance in 20mph limits is poor.
Furthermore, changing a speed limit to 20mph from 30mph brings about only a very small reduction in speed. The 2018 study for the DfT – described at the time as “the largest, most comprehensive and sophisticated study into the effects of 20mph speed limits to be undertaken in the UK” – found that drivers’ median speed fell by just 0.7mph in residential areas, and 0.9mph in city centre areas where limits had been dropped from 30mph to 20mph.

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/are-20mph-speed-limits%20enforceable#gref

This non compliance was also reported by Forbes. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2020/09/08/86-of-motorists-break-20mph-speed-limits-estimates-uk-government/?sh=3c4a478c5c2b

The main point to push is that any mass non compliance encourages road users to break other road rules as well.

Another issue surrounding 20mph limits is that because they are so widely flouted, they have the potential to undermine the rules of the road.
https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/are-20mph-speed-limits%20enforceable#gref


For motorcycle specific speeds it is important to point out that motorcycle injuries are not closely linked to the speed of the accident. In low speed crashes a rider will just flop onto the ground and all the energy of the impact is absorbed at once. In high speed accidents a rider will slide, roll or tumble.

Crash speed ‘not linked to rider injury’

Speed is not necessarily linked to the severity of injuries in a motorcycle crash, according to the first global rider report on motorcycle crashes.

https://investigativeresearch.org/documents/Dynamics%20of%20Motorcycle%20Crashes_final.pdf

One of the most important findings is that the speed of a motorcycle involved in a crash is only randomly linked to the seriousness of injuries.

“The speed of the motorcycle when it crashes with another vehicle, road infrastructure or an object or animal does not necessarily determine the severity of the injuries of the motorcyclist,”

Similar results were found in:
The HURT report USA; Hurt, H.H., 1981. Motorcycle accident cause factors and identification of countermeasures (Vol. 2).
http://smarter-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/1.motorcycle-accident-cause-factors-and-identification-of-countermeasures_volume1_technical_report2.pdf

The MAIDS (Motorcycle Accidents In Depth Study) report (2009), carried out across five European countries:
https://www.maids-study.eu/

It is also important to point out that low speed riding is a particular skill that must be learnt before obtaining a licence, but that slightly higher speeds are safer. (try and ride at very low speeds and see what happens)

The most dangerous speed is to try and ride at the point where a rider stops physically steering the bike and starts counter steering. For most bikes that occurs at between 28 and 33 kmh, right where many councils are trying to set urban speeds.

[Berries]

At least someone at Waimak has seen sense and not gone full mental the way places like Dunedin have. And at least they recognised that a new government may change some of the legislation so they could be wasting their time doing much more than school speed limits which do seem to have wide support.

As for the value of consultation when NZTA are dictating what you do, it very much depends on whether the person at Council believes in all that or not. From my experience a lot of the decision makers don't think the ratepayers will go for it so have not put it in front of them - seems as if NZTA are in the same boat kicking the can along the road and not doing anything while they hope TLA's will soften everyone up. Does not seem to be happening though, and Waimak is a good example. Saw a mayor last week openly laughing at the idea of putting a 60km/h speed limit on all of his unsealed roads.

Yeah, Dunedin. Will be interesting to see what changes are made after their consultation is all dealt with. I suspect it won't change much at all given their starting position.

[Berries]

I made a submission to our local council and it was very well received by the committee.
Did it achieve anything though?

There is massive non-compliance with every 30km/h speed limit I see, whether it is BS roadworks or school speed limits when kids are not around. Not going to stop them happening though while we keep flogging the dead horse of Road to Zero.

[Jantar]

Did it achieve anything though?

There is massive non-compliance with every 30km/h speed limit I see, whether it is BS roadworks or school speed limits when kids are not around. Not going to stop them happening though while we keep flogging the dead horse of Road to Zero.

I don't know yet. All submitters are to be advised of the outcomes.

[Moise]

Well, submissions were listened to in Rotorua:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/rotorua-lakes-council-to-plan-speed-limits-with-schools-in-tailored-approach/KOM4QGRHOJEG7J3L77QCQRDB2Y/

Interesting to read that repealing the current legislation will be a priority for the new government.

It is a mess out there. There are 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, and 80 limits, plus the 90 limit on SH2 south of the Bombay Hills. I often find myself unsure of what the speed limit is as there is little consistency in the limits or how they are signposted.

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[rastuscat]

Well, submissions were listened to in Rotorua:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/rotorua-lakes-council-to-plan-speed-limits-with-schools-in-tailored-approach/KOM4QGRHOJEG7J3L77QCQRDB2Y/

Interesting to read that repealing the current legislation will be a priority for the new government.

It is a mess out there. There are 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, and 80 limits, plus the 90 limit on SH2 south of the Bombay Hills. I often find myself unsure of what the speed limit is as there is little consistency in the limits or how they are signposted.

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Back in the day I was a traffic cop on the North Shore in Auckland. There were basically 2 speed limits : 50, and 100. Okay so there were some 70s, but it was primarily 50 or 100. On East Coast Road, we got moaned at a lot for enforcing the 50 kmh. It seemed like it should be 60 or maybe 70, but the people who lived there were happy with it being 50. The North Shore City Council wanted to keep it at 50, as people could understand that highways were 100, and urban streets are 50. It's simple, it prevents confusion.

Fast forward to 2003, I transferred to Christchurch. Where the Council had responded to requests to make the speed limits match the environment. And people often had no recollection of the speed limit they were in when we were writing tickets. So people left the airport, and it was 60. Until Burnside High, when it became 50. And we stopped them on Harper Ave, a 50 kmh area, doing 67. And they swore they were in a 60 kmh area.

The problem is now infinitely worse, where the limits are being set to reflect risk based on environment. They are being set at a safe and sustainable level. And people regularly have no idea the limit in the road they are in.

Even online tools like Google and Waze occasionally get it wrong, as they can't account for temporary limits like roadworks.

I guess it's too much to expect people to pay attention to road signs.

[nerrrd]

I guess it's too much to expect people to pay attention to road signs.

It shouldn’t be, but humans are creatures of habit. And a lot of the people trained in the simple 50 or 100kph days are still on the roads.

The signage in the Auckland CBD where it goes from 50 to 40 to 30kph leaves a lot to be desired, though, they’re not always easy to spot (especially with all the advertising signage polluting the background) and if you’re distracted even for a moment you can easily miss them.

The motorways here seem to have long stretches with no speed signs as well, I guess that might be a leftover from the old days when it was more consistant?

[Jantar]

...

I guess it's too much to expect people to pay attention to road signs.My wife and I carried out an experiment and the road between Clyde and Roxburgh. This isn't a heavily populated area, so you wouldn't expect too many road signs. Yet in that short drive there were an average of 120 signs per km, or around one sign every 3 seconds of driving (would have been way more if we took the highway through Alexandra). The signs are a mixture of mandatory signs, like speed limits; advisory signs like suggested speeds on bends; warning signs like slow school ahead; passing lane signs; street or road names; directional signs;etc.

Take 1 second to read a sign, 1 second watching for hazards, 1 second looking at the road surface and other traffic, and that leaves no time to glance at your speedometer to see if you are actually within the speed limit. So what actually happens is that drivers do not actually read the signs, but simply glance at them as well. This means that although they may see a sign it doesn't actually register within their brain. Stop that driver and ask them what the last road sign actually said, and most won't be able to tell you.

[rastuscat]

Research suggests that people's minds actually capture about 16% of the signs that people encounter. There's so much visual pollution and clutter its no wonder people don't see the signs that matter.

[Berries]

The problem is now infinitely worse, where the limits are being set to reflect risk based on environment. They are being set at a safe and sustainable level. And people regularly have no idea the limit in the road they are in.

Even online tools like Google and Waze occasionally get it wrong, as they can't account for temporary limits like roadworks.

I guess it's too much to expect people to pay attention to road signs.
Funny, but Dunedin went ahead and installed some of their new speed limits this week. I had to do a u-turn to go and take a photo of some 30km/h signs this morning. I genuinely think that they have been placed in a manner and in a position where the 30km/h speed limit is unenforceable.

I do agree with you that in 'the old days' it was easy - rural was 100, town was 50 and those bits in between were 70. Then it went haywire. Now they say a 10km/h differential is not enough so we have 40, 60, 80 and 100. But then just to contradict things they have 30's and even some mad 20's being thrown in. We don't got no 110's down here but it has now gone officially stupid.

And the thing is all this won't change the stats. Yes, we can throw the physics around but numb nuts wiping out his mates against a tree at 130km/h or a pisshead falling asleep, drifting off the road and drowning upside down in a creek will still happen. Dickhead on dirt bike with no helmet or loved up idiot falling out of the window and knocking his head on the kerb. Cyclist going under a logging truck at 30km/h, head on at 80 due to someone who just doesn't care. None of this is being dealt with, you know, the reality, not the TV adverts. Dropping the open road speed limit to 70 or 80 and making sure it is complied with would make a difference. The rest is just crap that keeps an unecessary and very expensive industry going.

[Moise]

The problem is now infinitely worse, where the limits are being set to reflect risk based on environment. They are being set at a safe and sustainable level. And people regularly have no idea the limit in the road they are in.

Even online tools like Google and Waze occasionally get it wrong, as they can't account for temporary limits like roadworks.

I guess it's too much to expect people to pay attention to road signs.
Now I would be the first to agree that the blanket 100 limit on rural roads is no longer appropriate for a whole variety of reasons. But the rationale for some of the 80 and 60 limits set by AT is difficult to understand. I seriously doubt that anyone suitably qualified actually drove on the roads and properly assessed what was a safe speed.

One example is the 60 and 80 limits from Drury to Waiuku. No problem with SH22 to Paerata given the heavy traffic on this section, but is none of the road past there safe for 100 hm/h?

Some councils have done a reasonable job, eg Waipa District Council. But, as I've previously said, generally it's a mess.





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[rastuscat]

Research suggests that people's minds actually capture about 16% of the signs that people encounter. There's so much visual pollution and clutter its no wonder people don't see the signs that matter.

A few years ago I was doing a CBTA test for a guy, and all was going well. Until we transitioned from an 80 kmh area into a 60 kmh area.

It was pretty clear that he just hadn't seen the signs, as he carried on at a steady 78 kmh. Past the two 60 kmh signs, clearly displayed, one on each side of the road.

I'm just too damn straight to let it go, so I had to give him the bad news that he had failed, for doing 78 in a 60 kmh area.

He insisted that we go back to look, as he didn't believe me. So we did, and he was amazed that he hadn't see them.

Thing is, if ever there is a time when you are having to not exceed the speed limit, it's on a driving/riding test. It just wasn't his day.

But it really highlights the problem of human fallibility.

[Berries]

But it really highlights the problem of human fallibility.
And the fact that there is now no way you can assess what the speed limit might be from the surrounding environment which seemed to work pretty well until they brought all the new limits in. 60, 70 or 80? Who the fuck knows anymore. 50, 40 or 30? 50 or 60?

Went through a school zone this afternoon. No clock on my bike, didn't know whether it was ten to three and 50km/h or ten past three and 30km/h. Obviously I erred on the side of caution, dropped a couple of gears and pulled a wheelie at 90km/h for the lols.

[Moise]

I went through a school zone yesterday that was also a 40 km/h limit! The speed limit and school zone signs were within a few metres of each other. Harris Road in Huntly.

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[pritch]

Whadya mean you didn't see the sign?

[Berries]

If your licence depends on seeing a sign then it should be a bit more obvious than just sticking the minimum size roundel to a handy lamp post at the back of the footpath and saying well, the sign is there. They should be blindingly obvious if the intent is to save lives rather than to fail people on their CBTA or, heaven forbid, raise money for the government.

[rastuscat]

353964

Not sure they could be much clearer.

[Berries]

Was talking generally, not sure how you thought I would know which specific signs you were referring to.

Imagine the truck in your photo being in front of you on this road with a bus coming the other way. The white car has just turned out of the side road, there's a pedestrian crossing with poor visibility ahead, kid on a scooter to one side and probably a Bully XL about to jump out on you. A few more distractions than your example. Not convinced this complies with 8.2(1).

[rastuscat]

Imagine the truck in your photo being in front of you on this road with a bus coming the other way. .

Another reason for leaving a significant following distance is that it gives you a better view, and more time to take stuff in.

Following trucks too closely often obscures vision, even of overhead traffic lights.

I actually agree with you. There is so much to take in at times, our mind captures the things that present the greatest threat, and speed signs aren't that. It's part of our survival instinct.

I blame the cavemen.

[jellywrestler]

Whadya mean you didn't see the sign?

in lambton quay welly and many other central streets the speed limit signs are about 4 meters up, i'm looking for someone stepping off the footpath, with ear buds in listening to joy division, not up in the sky.....

[Moise]

in lambton quay welly and many other central streets the speed limit signs are about 4 meters up, i'm looking for someone stepping off the footpath, with ear buds in listening to joy division, not up in the sky.....Joy Division? Wasn't Up in the Sky by Oasis?

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