Motorcycle Manufacters Castrating/Historectimising Motorcyclists for $$$$$

[sugilite]

I remember the first and pretty much last time I came up against a bike electronically interfering with motorcycle management was with the 06 ZX10R race bike that had the ignition retarded on first and second gears. It felt like a big hand pushing me back, so naturally as a racer, I hated that. We had a race wiring loom on order, so that took care of that (there were small devices you could buy at the time to disable that shit too). I immediately noticed the difference with it gone, and lap times duly dropped as a result.
And therein ends my somewhat limited knowledge and experience of electronic rider disablement's, opps I mean aids.

Now don't get me wrong my epic whinge is not about rider aids and if they are any good or necessary. Clearly, riders that want that extra level of safety management, it is undeniably a good thing and no doubt has saved many lives.

No, what my whinge is about, is manufacturers ushering in by stealth - this bullshit buy 80% of our bloody expensive motorcycle and then subscribe to the other 20%!
I just got done reading an article on the newly released 2024 KTM 990 Duke. Obviously a true “Hooligans” bike. Except, KTM have taken a large orange electronic machete to the bikes testicles and lopped them off.
https://www.cycleworld.com/bikes/ktm-990-duke-first-look/
This bike has anti wheelie that cannot be turned off, well at least not after you ride past the factory set limit of 1500 kilometers of unadulterated unlimited unlocked riding nirvana. So once these fucking adrenaline drug pushing narcofacturors have you hooked, out comes the subscription or unlock fees – in this case curtailing our mother plucking GOD GIVEN rights to WHEELSTANDS!
I feel this behavior from the manufacturers is reprehensible and I would take great satisfaction by pissing into the morning chai fucking late of every marketing bean counting piece of shit that dreamed up this new hellscape.
I mean, it is akin to hiring a high class hooker, and then finding out the pimp has filled all the best holes with fucking panel beating bondi.

Rant over :angry2: - For now

[neels]

It seems to be the coming business model, for cars as well as bikes. Don't forget to pay your heated seat subscription before winter.....

https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscriptions-microtransactions-heated-seats-feature

It's actually been the norm for electronic test equipment for quite a while, the hardware is pretty much all the same, the only difference is how much you pay for options to unlock the various functions.

[onearmedbandit]

I agree...but I have read that from a manufacturing point of view it's actually cheaper. There's no deviations in the build process for different hardware. I remember years ago reading why Porsche charged more for less, ie a vehicle with no radio, no rear seats etc etc. Their reasoning was it took man hours etc to pull a certain car out of the automated build process to ensure it didn't get fitted with those extra parts.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The car guys seem to have lots of options and not be scared to take all the manufacturer stuff off and go with a third party ECU (Haltech or LINK), custom wiring loom and sensors. Us motorbike guys dont seem to.

The answer for the KTM is clearly to get a fully programmable and customisable ECU and then take it from there.

I am in the process of selling the only bike I have ever had that has had TC and ABS. Not because it has that stuff - just because I dont like riding it as much as my other one which pre-dates that stuff.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I agree...but I have read that from a manufacturing point of view it's actually cheaper. There's no deviations in the build process for different hardware. I remember years ago reading why Porsche charged more for less, ie a vehicle with no radio, no rear seats etc etc. Their reasoning was it took man hours etc to pull a certain car out of the automated build process to ensure it didn't get fitted with those extra parts.

Porsche being Porsche their super light ones had alloy panels, thinner glass, no sound deadening, no fripperies at all (A/C, radio, carpet).... ooohhhh errrr. Proper. I know someone who lived in Chermany and used a Porsche 911 as a work hack. Did 300000 ks in it. His verdict is it is a proper sports car that you can drive everyday.

[onearmedbandit]

Porsche being Porsche their super light ones had alloy panels, thinner glass, no sound deadening, no fripperies at all (A/C, radio, carpet).... ooohhhh errrr. Proper. I know someone who lived in Chermany and used a Porsche 911 as a work hack. Did 300000 ks in it. His verdict is it is a proper sports car that you can drive everyday.

This wasn't for special light weight versions though, that was the point of the interview. It was simply a normal model 911 with certain items removed. I've been lucky enough to experience some proper light weight Porsche's, my fav being the 964 911 RSR factory race car an ex-employer had me drive around the city to find a place to repair some crash damage before the next weekend. That car you could understand why it cost more!

[sugilite]

Some good points, and while I agree with OAB on the physical stuff/options. When it comes to things like turning off wheelie control, it is just an instruction set that costs not one bean to have it switchable from the start. So companies like KTM are still on my shit list.
I would not be surprised if journalists were encouraged strong arm like not to get too negative about it.

It sux.

[onearmedbandit]

How about this view? The manufacturers work out that overall it is cheaper to build the bike with all the options installed rather than some with this and some with that? But instead of making everyone pay for features they may not want, they give you the option to pay less for less?

Playing the devils advocate here I know. And at first I thought the behaviour was less than average, but I must admit I've been slightly swayed by the arguments the manufacturers have given. Now as to whether those arguments are legitimate or not....your guess as good as mine. They are a business after all, and their primary function is to return a profit.

[george formby]

Some good points, and while I agree with OAB on the physical stuff/options. When it comes to things like turning off wheelie control, it is just an instruction set that costs not one bean to have it switchable from the start. So companies like KTM are still on my shit list.
I would not be surprised if journalists were encouraged strong arm like not to get too negative about it.

It sux.

When the 890r came out, the first bike I recall having pay per wheelie, many of the reviewers were extremely skeptical, some cynical, about subscribing for a full fat bike. None of them got too loud about it, though. Obviously a shit list beckoned..

I'm keen to have a crack on a KTM 890 SMT but if I had to subscribe for a full power fuck it package it's not gonna happen.

It also begs the question of reliability, how often do bikes with this level of technology have annoying "little" issues? My car pretty much crapped itself when a wheel speed sensor failed. Most irksome.

Worth considering how it effects the second hand value of the bike. Does the dongle and subscription get transferred?

This is my third edit and more stuff has popped into my head but really, it's just a bucket of arse.

[sugilite]

Some bloody good points yeah.
I'm guessing the lucky new owner would need to set up his own subscriptions.

I moved over to the old farts club and prefer the older bikes with lots of power, and no aids. Organic if one likes.

[onearmedbandit]

I moved over to the old farts club and prefer the older bikes with lots of power, and no aids. Organic if one likes.

That's why I'll never sell my K2. Even Fi is almost too much tech on a bike for me.

[Gremlin]

It seems to be the coming business model, for cars as well as bikes. Don't forget to pay your heated seat subscription before winter.....

https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscriptions-microtransactions-heated-seats-feature

It's actually been the norm for electronic test equipment for quite a while, the hardware is pretty much all the same, the only difference is how much you pay for options to unlock the various functions.
On the other hand... BMW is withdrawing it, after push back: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/7/23863258/bmw-cancel-heated-seat-subscription-microtransaction

And that's pretty much it. Don't buy it, watch demand for the model tank, and the manufacturers will stop doing it. Even those that don't care, and always buy the new model... when they see a non-existent 2nd hand market, they'll start changing.

And for KTM... 3 fucken models you morons, and you're back to where you were. 990 - 790 - 890 - 990... ridiculous. Even if I include the 1290, that's still silly.

[R650R]

And for KTM... 3 fucken models you morons, and you're back to where you were. 990 - 790 - 890 - 990... ridiculous. Even if I include the 1290, that's still silly.

And they still sell 790 alongside 890. Also the 1290 is about to become a 1390 prob because emissions laws.

[R650R]

My main beef about the new 990 is its pathetic 14 litre fuel tank. They claim great gas mileage but we know real world riding and “fun” means it’s going to drinking like a sailor in a brothel.

I think it’s a lazy way to get a claimed lower bike weight and also to get us to forget what real range of distance we had before they start making e bikes.

On the plus side some of these new riding modes are saving our licences/tyres/brakes/chain from wear. My main bike has silly HP and is an animal in sport mode but there’s so many extra lifestyle block driveways and traffic on our good bike roads there’s less places to use the bike to its full potential anyway.
One mode down the bike is plenty of fun still and does what I need.

But yeah it does suck a bit. The whole climate change scam is starting to unravel so hopefully in their final death throes the manufacturers might go rogue and release unrestricted bikes for certain markets and end the disease of Californication.

[rastuscat]

It's been happening for a long time. For example, buy a Harley for $40K, then spend another $5K on extra bits to make it what you want.

I had a Street Glide to ride for a few days, most uncomfortable seat I ever sat on. But hey, Harley can sell you a comfort seat..........

Or buy a BMW R1250GSA for a gaziliion dollars, then farkle the feck out of it with Touratech or Wunderlich bits.

Kind of disappointing. But it's a strategy to empty our pockets. Hardly surprising, when you consider that companies exist to make money. They aren't a social service.

[sugilite]

I guess the fight back is likely too late and it gets accepted into normalcy. It would take the heads of marque specific facebook groups/forums etc to coordinate a campaign of sustained pressure on their respective manufacturers to bring about change.

Just imagine a world with motorcycles being controlled like 3 in one printers are these days. Run out of ink, and the scanning gets disabled. "I'm sorry sir, your helmet is one day past it's expiry date, access to motorcycle - denied, but do feel free to sit on it in the garage and make broom broom sounds.".

[R650R]

How about we get the tech world motivated to make complete aftermarket ECU’s for ahem racing use.
I’m sure none of the data is encrypted strong enough for the right minds to not be able to do it.
I’ve seen a guy pull a complete ecu read of a bmw car and even write/clone the internal vin/ID into a new generic aftermarket ecu so it’s doable.

[pete376403]

How about we get the tech world motivated to make complete aftermarket ECU’s for ahem racing use.
I’m sure none of the data is encrypted strong enough for the right minds to not be able to do it.
I’ve seen a guy pull a complete ecu read of a bmw car and even write/clone the internal vin/ID into a new generic aftermarket ecu so it’s doable.

the mind that are smart enough to that sort of thing are probably after a more profitable target, such as cracking bank encryption

[onearmedbandit]

Cracking ECU's is easy enough that there are multiple places in NZ that can do this. Cracking bank encryption though....yeah not so much

[george formby]

How about we get the tech world motivated to make complete aftermarket ECU’s for ahem racing use.
I’m sure none of the data is encrypted strong enough for the right minds to not be able to do it.
I’ve seen a guy pull a complete ecu read of a bmw car and even write/clone the internal vin/ID into a new generic aftermarket ecu so it’s doable.

Getting your ECU "flashed" to remove a 4000rpm flat spot, correct lean running or liberate more horsepower with a new pipe is common practice. But that is purely the engine management / FI side of things.

I suspect the firmware for anti wheelie, no slidey slidey is a whole different kettle of pixies. No doubt some 12 year old is all over it but then we have to consider stuff like autonomous braking, cruise control, lidar etc. Getting it wrong could be lethal.

And if it does go wrong after fiddling where would we stand with insurance and the legal aspect of causing an accident due to riding an unsafe bike? Will the electronics on vehicles become a bigger part of the WoF process? An ABS warning light is currently a fail.

[Grumph]

And if it does go wrong after fiddling where would we stand with insurance and the legal aspect of causing an accident due to riding an unsafe bike? Will the electronics on vehicles become a bigger part of the WoF process? An ABS warning light is currently a fail.

Undoubtedly they will become an integral part of the WOF test. ATM they aren't - but only because no-one's written them into the regs.
What worries me is that the easy way will be taken - a fault light will be a fail. No effort to actually test the functions.

We're already looking back on the golden age of motorcycling.

[Gremlin]

Or buy a BMW R1250GSA for a gaziliion dollars, then farkle the feck out of it with Touratech or Wunderlich bits.

Kind of disappointing. But it's a strategy to empty our pockets. Hardly surprising, when you consider that companies exist to make money. They aren't a social service.
Just look at any brand that has a model that has a street variant along with the adventure variant (KTM Duke vs Adventure, BMW R1250 GS vs R/RS etc). The adventure variant is comfortably more expensive. Manufacturers figured this out a while ago...
The new R1300GSA (when announced next year) is going to be past $50k, if the R1300GS is $46k (depending on model etc).

My 1090R was lighter than the 1190R (plus upgraded suspension etc). Half the weight loss was the centre stand (which you paid to put back on) - the R1300GS in some variants also does away with the centre stand being stock.

[Kickaha]

a fault light will be a fail. No effort to actually test the functions.

It already is with ABS and TPMS lights