Road condition possible cause of crash?

[pete376403]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/papamoa-motorcyclist-asks-waka-kotahi-nzta-to-accept-state-highway-5-near-rotorua-caused-crash/DDWVEAXQ5ZHVRPPAQTC3RMVK2E/

Includes a picture of the bike. My question is about the current fad of balloon tyres. -if these were any good then surely something similar would be fitted to sports bikes. There is mention of a "tank-slapper". Wondering if a heavy front wheel would accentuate any tendency for such a thing to occur, once triggered by a bad pothole or other road surface fault. driver behaviour, vehicle condition and speed were trotted out by Waka Kotahi as factors, even though these were ruled out at the time.

[Laava]

Wonder if she should be fighting the same battle with the manufacturer of the bike?
they are like a suzuki van van for adults.

[BMWST?]

the front tyre looks huge,wonder if it is standard size?

[Gremlin]

In any accident, there are 3 factors, the vehicle, the driver/rider and the environment (inc road and it's surface).

I see plenty of issues with that picture of the road, and NZTA says it's fit for purpose... (btw, if they say it's fit for purpose, thanks, I'll be needed the data that has allowed you to determine that, for my case).

Her issue is, she's going to be fighting the NZTA lawyers. NZTA doesn't actually care about her one bit. It's concerned about the precedent if they're found liable. This is how corporates work (make no mistake, that's what NZTA is). We can't lose this case, otherwise xyz. NZTA are also like any other organisation, you're fighting a faceless entity. If you start getting somewhere with a manager, they'll move on, or be moved, and you'll start again.

Her other avenue is negligence. NZTA should have known better that doing xyz was going to cause issues, which is probably easier. eg, if I recall correctly, the manufacturer of the WRB have a recommended installation, x metres from a live lane of traffic etc. If NZTA have breached this, they have knowingly gone against manufacturer recommendations. Under the OIA you request information around the work in that section and installing the WRB against recommendations... this is an easier requirement to meet. You definitely don't play games on their pitch, and don't get shoehorned into their arguments.

As for the tyres, hell, put dual purpose tyres on flushed tar and you're significantly worse off that street tyres. Vice versa with street tyres on gravel. All about the performance of the tyre and it's intended use. Manufacturers have smart people to figure out the geometry, suitable tyre size etc, as they have to be able to sign off the vehicle is fit for purpose etc. Just look at the original Merc A class that infamously failed the moose test. Merc re-consults with engineers to come up with a solution otherwise it wouldn't have been able to meet approval...

[Berries]

To be honest I switched off when I read the term cheese cutters. Normally flags to me someone wanting to deflect the blame. Not saying that is the case here but they had nothing to do with the cause of the crash and landing on top of armco can be pretty horrific as well. As can being run over by a car coming the other way.

Always feel for someone who suffers those kinds of injuries but that article raises lots of questions. If the road was so bad why not slow down? How do you get a 100m+ tank slapper on a bike like that? How much actual experience did she have on that bike? Having a full licence for three years does not necessarily make you an experienced rider, noting that the crash was on a long weekend.

Shame she cannot remember what happened in the lead up as that would no doubt help with the mental recovery, its going to be a long and difficult journey if everyone tells her it was all the roads fault. Hope her physical recovery is quick.


I see plenty of issues with that picture of the road, and NZTA says it's fit for purpose... (btw, if they say it's fit for purpose, thanks, I'll be needed the data that has allowed you to determine that, for my case).
I wouldn't fancy it in the wet but I suspect hundreds of motorcyclists have ridden over there without an issue. What is fit for purpose for a road anyway? On any road you just have to deal with what is in front of you.


Her other avenue is negligence. NZTA should have known better that doing xyz was going to cause issues, which is probably easier. eg, if I recall correctly, the manufacturer of the WRB have a recommended installation, x metres from a live lane of traffic etc. If NZTA have breached this, they have knowingly gone against manufacturer recommendations. Under the OIA you request information around the work in that section and installing the WRB against recommendations... this is an easier requirement to meet.
There are guidelines for the offset etc but you only have to look at the bit heading out of Wellington where they installed it with sod all clearance and head on fatalities dropped like a stone. There is a story about that somewhere on the internet. If it can save so many lives then they will go against supplied guidance and come up with their own. I guess at this site they must have weighed up the pros and cons of putting barrier in, and to be honest the photos looks very similar to the many designs that are currently under way and will be making an appearance all over the country in the very near future. You won't get anywhere with the negligence card. This is NZTA's thinking - https://nzta.govt.nz/assets/Roads-and-Rail/docs/Report-to-the-Minister-of-Transport-on-median-barriers.pdf

And one thing none of us should forget, 'cheese cutters' can also save motorcyclists lives. I am guessing this dude might still be around if this road had a median barrier - https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/gang-tributes-biker-killed-motorway-crash

And check this out -

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9NYanW4ypEY?si=2OAYrUbUkeO6i9cl" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>


EDIT - Here's that Wellington video. Go to 5:30 to see two riders who probably benefitted from the barrier being installed even if it wasn't to the ideal standard.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qCYy8wfPR6k?si=js6DGzM54e0nbDZv" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[pritch]

the front tyre looks huge,wonder if it is standard size?

It looks right for a Harley 48. Function follows form on Harleys and in this instance in particular the bike is primarily a styling exercise.

[Moise]

It looks right for a Harley 48. Function follows form on Harleys and in this instance in particular the bike is primarily a styling exercise.The front tyre tyre is 130/90-16. Here are the geometry and suspension specs, you'd want to be careful on less than smooth roads.


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[pete376403]

So, shitty road and marginal suspension. Equal share of blame. Leave the WRB out of it, they are after the event and if they were not there then the rider may well have gone under an oncoming vehicle.

[Laava]

As I said in post 2, maybe she should be asking questions of the bike manufacturer? Might have been covered in the owners manual I guess? Not suitable for uneven roads, high speeds or tight corners…

[R650R]

It looks right for a Harley 48. Function follows form on Harleys and in this instance in particular the bike is primarily a styling exercise.

Yes looks like normal cruiser tyre. But these tyres and being a Harley should be no problem and maybe an advantage in these conditions, weight carried nice and low and those sidewalls would flex good soaking bumps up.

Of note is that she has only been riding three years. That’s not a long time experience wise and probably in social group environment where someone else is spotting hazards instead of learning to see them.
Even if the road is crap it’s a driver/rider responsibility to read/observe and adjust your operation accordingly. And even more so given its common knowledge many are in a poor state of repair.
I’ve had couple of times where bike has lost it big time in wet on tyre bleed unexpectedly and just accept it’s part of being on road. One time I did report it to NZTA as it wasn’t easily visibly apparent how bad it was.
Another time was exacerbated by the bike being on cruise control and once it slid the bike kept applying power! I no longer use cruise in wet if tar bleed about.

Very sad about injuries received but if it was bad enough to be a “ major” causative factor then there would be multiple accidents happening in same place and that is pretty rare in my experience. On a North Island road like that which is a major freight route you e got to expect those channels and ridges which form from high numbers of heavy trucks. Never mind that the road itself is in a pumice base that is always moving anyway.

[pete376403]

As I said in post 2, maybe she should be asking questions of the bike manufacturer? Might have been covered in the owners manual I guess? Not suitable for uneven roads, high speeds or tight corners…
H-D will never accept any blame and will react in exactly the same way as W-K, cmplete with (if necessary) the lawyers

[R650R]

This had me hitting replay a few times other day. Near end of vid, yes ford ranger is quite away across centre but think standing up (needlessly) ADV style increase reaction time and reduced time to brake properly and hug the bank.
Right at very end of vid author provides a super slow mo also.
First crash footage about 3/4 way in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kIB86PzsKw&pp=ygUaQWZyaWNhIHR3aW4gcGhpbGxpcCBpc2xhbmQ%3D

[Laava]

H-D will never accept any blame and will react in exactly the same way as W-K, cmplete with (if necessary) the lawyers
Yep, that is right. Unless it becomes a class action law suit. Highly unlikely I know.

[BMWST?]

This had me hitting replay a few times other day. Near end of vid, yes ford ranger is quite away across centre but think standing up (needlessly) ADV style increase reaction time and reduced time to brake properly and hug the bank.
Right at very end of vid author provides a super slow mo also.
First crash footage about 3/4 way in.


He braked quite early but didnt seem to slow down much and didnt seem to turn away but rather kept going .Easy to criticise watching a slo mo video

[Moise]

I rode to Rotorua recently on SH5, including the section where the crash happened, and thought that the road was is better condition than usual. But the road heading north up the Mamakus can be a bit bumpy in places and 1.5" of suspension travel is not very much, although the back tyre probably helps to absorb the bumps.

You really have to be careful out there.

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[roogazza]

He braked quite early but didnt seem to slow down much and didnt seem to turn away but rather kept going .Easy to criticise watching a slo mo video

Just watched it. I dunno he seems to have room but maybe freaked a little and got the old target fixation. Narrow gravel road,shit happens.
Older fellas but we don't know how experienced. Took a while to get up lol.
No other traffic oncoming either ,maybe got a bit of a fright when the Ute appeared ?

[george formby]

Just watched it. I dunno he seems to have room but maybe freaked a little and got the old target fixation. Narrow gravel road,shit happens.
Older fellas but we don't know how experienced. Took a while to get up lol.
No other traffic oncoming either ,maybe got a bit of a fright when the Ute appeared ?

Concur. I feel for the poor bugger. By the time WTF? had gone through their head the body was tense and the reaction window was closing.

It's really hard to make an instantaneous decision in a situation like that and focus on the "gap".

[R650R]

He braked quite early but didnt seem to slow down much and didnt seem to turn away but rather kept going .Easy to criticise watching a slo mo video

It’s not about criticism, it’s about hey guys there’s always something you can be actively doing yourself to contribute to your own safety.

[rastuscat]

One of the keys to positioning is surface appraisal.

I suspect that if the rider had paid more attention to where she was putting her contact patches, this might not have happened.

Sure, roads need to be better. But until they are, we need to ride like they aren't.

[R650R]

Follow up of the Africa twin vs ford ranger from the man himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftyyBLc0wH4&pp=ygUTYmlnIGJpa2UgYWR2ZW50dXJlcw%3D%3D

[Oakie]

Spent some time thinking about the incident today as I rode around. I came up with one observation. The rider was riding with two friends so assume three bikes and that they were all going about the same speed and probably following similar lines. Yet the other two bikes didn't have tank slappers on that piece of road which makes me think bike setup may have something to do with it or an incorrect input from the rider. I know, a lot of assumptions but I offer it for thought.

[F5 Dave]

Certainly none of us know. But reflecting back, my gf had a bad tankslapping wobble on her, and I can't remember if it was GN250 or GS500, but we were approaching McKay's crossing. The road was shiny and badly bumpy from trucks breaking. We didn't have same issue. I'm guessing she deflected the front wheel off a bump to invoke it. She was badly rattled by the experience.

I could say her inexperience and my superior roadcraft were the reason for above. But we'd ridden many more kilometers in those years than most people especially these days with bikes as secondary transport. Also if it were nighttime and I was tired, I could easily have hit those bumps wrong. Then I'd be the wally.

[pritch]

Spent some time thinking about the incident today as I rode around. I came up with one observation. The rider was riding with two friends so assume three bikes and that they were all going about the same speed and probably following similar lines. Yet the other two bikes didn't have tank slappers on that piece of road which makes me think bike setup may have something to do with it or an incorrect input from the rider. I know, a lot of assumptions but I offer it for thought.

A thoughtful response but one observation. I was startled to see "bike set up" referred to in connection with a Harley. Generally, according to professionals, they don't even run correct tyre pressures.

[george formby]

A thoughtful response but one observation. I was startled to see "bike set up" referred to in connection with a Harley. Generally, according to professionals, they don't even run correct tyre pressures.

I've never ridden a bike like the Harley which went AWOL. Would the large diameter front wheel and fat tyres cause the bike to tram line more than a "normal" bike? Compensating for this could cause a head shake. Just a thought.

I can get a tank slapper going on all my trail bikes with 21" fronts pretty easily. Not that I do, obv's.

[BMWST?]

in another life i had a cb900. A flatmate also had a CB900. He always complained about speed wobble as he hit the Aotea Overramp southbound. I tried his bike no issue. He tried my bike..had a speed wobble. He was a little fella. I was a normal fella. I think we ran the same tyres at that time

[Gremlin]

I've never ridden a bike like the Harley which went AWOL. Would the large diameter front wheel and fat tyres cause the bike to tram line more than a "normal" bike? Compensating for this could cause a head shake. Just a thought.
Closest I've had was a VTX1800 the shop gave me as a loaner, while one was in. The biggest thing I remember is consecutive bumps just flat out confused the suspension (but mister, I'm still dealing with the other bump and now you give me another?) Combine the bumps with corners and you had a real circular gyration going on.

For tramlining, even different tyres on the same bike can behave differently. Also, given the reasonably slack head angle (especially in comparison to say sportbikes), it seems less likely.

[R650R]

Kyle Wyman of king of baggers fame and AMA Superbikes takes his personal road bike around laguna seca.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEUXX3wyj-c&pp=ygUbS3lsZSB3eW1hbiBwZXJzb25hbCAgaGFybGV5

[Berries]

Kyle Wyman of king of baggers fame and AMA Superbikes takes his personal road bike around laguna seca.
Going to have a bit of a stab in the dark here and say he has a few more km's under his belt than the subject of this thread.

Have seen a few cruisers crash due to running out of ground clearance when banked over on a corner, hello Suzuki Boulevard, but generally speaking the rider is more of a contributing factor to a bike only crash than the type of bike, assuming it is kind of road legal.

[neels]

Have seen a few cruisers crash due to running out of ground clearance when banked over on a corner, hello Suzuki Boulevard, but generally speaking the rider is more of a contributing factor to a bike only crash than the type of bike, assuming it is kind of road legal.
Have observed similar myself thankfully without the crashing, after being overtaken by a fat american machine at the end of a couple of long straights leading into 10k of twisties, then watching the hopping sideways on the road when bits touched down and the constant checking of the mirror to see if the following 2 up 80's yamaha was still there. Didn't look like much fun from an observer point of view.

[george formby]

Stumbled across this vid. Go to 1:34 for relevance.


https://youtu.be/eM6RxWKx3Zc?si=f3A2Vl8UF2aCSyf7

[BikeLED]

It looks right for a Harley 48. Function follows form on Harleys and in this instance in particular the bike is primarily a styling exercise.

What he said ^^^^

Google 'Harley 48 Wobble" and be unsurprised at the large number of posts of people having handling issues at 'freeway speeds'

Isolating the bike from the engine seems to have consequences with frame rigidity and oscillation.

The rake should be enough to make it solid in a straight line.


Pearce said she had been riding motorbikes for three years, was fully licensed and her bike was warranted. She said she was not speeding, according to witnesses, there were no other vehicles or people involved, and she had no alcohol in her blood.

In her view: “The only thing left is the road conditions.”



No, there are plenty of other things that could contribute - tyre pressure, tyre wear, riding style, steering head bearings, wheel bearings, axle

I'm amazed how rarely other riders check their pressure.

[rastuscat]

No, there are plenty of other things that could contribute - tyre pressure, tyre wear, riding style, steering head bearings, wheel bearings, axle
.

Oh come on. Those things require the rider to take personal responsibility. Most unlikely.

Rather, this was a case where the state should have fitted training wheels and speed limiters to every motorcycle so we can stay safe.

Get with it.

[Laava]

Well I'm offended and so's my wife!

I think you'll find that is the usual response these days so let's go with that…

[rastuscat]

Well I'm offended and so's my wife!

Nice LoB reference.