Media reports the price of car reg going up.

[rastuscat]

Are we going to be hit with the xtra dollars to repair potholes?

[pete376403]

That and ending free school lunches for kids in low decile schools. Whatever it take to cut taxs for the rich.

[Black Knight]

There was a rumour that RUC was going to apply to ALL vehicles

[nerrrd]

Hopefully that's an across the board increase and not a proportion of what's already paid.

What, a government announcing policy changes they didn't campaign on?? How dare they! It's the end of democracy!! Fascists!!!

But seriously, filling in the potholes is probably a good idea. Building decent roads that don't get so many potholes in the first place would be a better idea. Is that something we simply can't afford anymore, or are the companies we pay to build the roads either incompetent or deliberately creating future work for themselves?

[pete376403]

There was a rumour that RUC was going to apply to ALL vehicles

It more or less does - just for some it's rolled into the registration charge or the petrol taxes

[pete376403]

Hopefully that's an across the board increase and not a proportion of what's already paid.

What, a government announcing policy changes they didn't campaign on?? How dare they! It's the end of democracy!! Fascists!!!

But seriously, filling in the potholes is probably a good idea. Building decent roads that don't get so many potholes in the first place would be a better idea. Is that something we simply can't afford anymore, or are the companies we pay to build the roads either incompetent or deliberately creating future work for themselves?

A decent rail system that gets the heavy freight off the roads wouldn't go amiss either, but the NactFirsts are ideologically committed to road over rail. And I'd agree that Fulton Hogan and the like dont want to fix the roads too well, otherwise, what do they do later

[release_the_bees]

Additional information that I came across on the Newshub site that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere else:


This will increase the annual cost of Motor Vehicle Registration (MVR) in 2026 by $50 for most vehicles, $28 for motorcycles, trailers and ATVs and $16.5 for mopeds

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[Oakie]

There was a rumour that RUC was going to apply to ALL vehicles

It is already a component of the price of petrol. Not in Diesel because of the wide variation in vehicle sizes (and therefore the damage caused to roads)

[pritch]

What, a government announcing policy changes they didn't campaign on?? How dare they! It's the end of democracy!! Fascists!!!


There was a Cabinet Minister on TV last week mentioned the government's austerity programme. He may have mentioned that prematurely 'cause nobody has mentioned it that I've seen since. They sure as Hell didn't trumpet an austerity programme during the election campaign. Though it was apparent that the noises Willis and Luxon were making were likely to cause a recession.

Looking on the bright side, when the recession hits we can laugh at the clowns who unwittingly voted for their own misery.

[Moise]

It is already a component of the price of petrol. Not in Diesel because of the wide variation in vehicle sizes (and therefore the damage caused to roads)This was part of the announcement, but not for a few years. So no more fuel tax but all light vehicles will pay the same RUC.

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[pzkpfw]

It is already a component of the price of petrol. Not in Diesel because of the wide variation in vehicle sizes (and therefore the damage caused to roads)

Oh! I thought it was something to do with all the non-road-use of diesel (construction, farming, ...) and the difficulty of having different supplies of road-taxed and non-taxed diesel.

(I think in some countries they have dyes in the diesel so it can be checked the "right kind" (taxed or not) is being used.)

[jim.cox]

(I think in some countries they have dyes in the diesel so it can be checked the "right kind" (taxed or not) is being used.)

That was done in NZ with petrol - aviation gas was a different colour - partly for safety partly for tax - not sure if it still applies

[pritch]

That was done in NZ with petrol - aviation gas was a different colour - partly for safety partly for tax - not sure if it still applies

My memory seems to suggest that in the dim distant past farm petrol may have been a different colour too?

[pete376403]

Oh! I thought it was something to do with all the non-road-use of diesel (construction, farming, ...) and the difficulty of having different supplies of road-taxed and non-taxed diesel.

That is how I understood it too. At one stage, the petrol used in boats was tax exempt as well, so it was not unknown for a boat on trailer to be filled up and then syphoned into the car once the boat was back home.

[nerrrd]

This was part of the announcement, but not for a few years. So no more fuel tax but all light vehicles will pay the same RUC.

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Hopefully they'll charge vehicles per wheel? I wouldn't put any money on this happening, I read an article saying they intend to do the charging electronically and we don't have a good track record with IT systems in this country – it'll end up costing four times as much, will take twice as long to deliver, and won't work as intended (if at all).

And what exactly would the benefit be over the existing excise tax, to make it worth making a simple system much more complicated? Isn't that why we can't have GST exemptions (unlike every other country in the world?)

[BMWST?]

This was part of the announcement, but not for a few years. So no more fuel tax but all light vehicles will pay the same RUC.

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that wont work with the current system.The purchase of RUC is virtually a manual transaction.I cant see it working if suddenly there are millions of users rather than thousands.However I think it s the way forward as the plug in hybrid users are paying twice ..They pay 5.5 cents a kilometre RUC whilst pure BEV and light(less than 3.5 tonne) diesels pay 7.6. non plug in hybrids pay nothing .They use far less petrol but still use the roads

[neels]

the plug in hybrid users are paying twice ..They pay 5.5 cents a kilometre RUC
It looks like they are getting burnt by the fuel economy figures published by their manufacturers, which for testing purposes are low thanks to including the rather limited electric range, but in reality are very optimistic compared to actual real world usage.


non plug in hybrids pay nothing .They use far less petrol but still use the roads
Therein lies one of the problems, the increasing number of hybrids, and petrol cars in general getting more efficient. There are more cars using the roads, but the tax take per car from fuel excise is ever decreasing, so they need to find another way to extract money to pay the increasing roading costs.

[Moise]

It looks like they are getting burnt by the fuel economy figures published by their manufacturers, which for testing purposes are low thanks to including the rather limited electric range, but in reality are very optimistic compared to actual real world usage.


Therein lies one of the problems, the increasing number of hybrids, and petrol cars in general getting more efficient. There are more cars using the roads, but the tax take per car from fuel excise is ever decreasing, so they need to find another way to extract money to pay the increasing roading costs.

Exactly. This issue was flagged by NZTA years ago, but of course the government just kicked the problem down the road until it became a serious funding shortfall.

(No pun intended!)

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[nerrrd]

I didn't realise how many petrol hybrids there are out there, almost as many as petrol if these figures are to be believed.

https://evdb.nz/ev-percentage-nz

Still, an increase in the excise tax would be a far simpler mechanism to compensate for any funding shortfalls, and they could do that tomorrow.

[BMWST?]

I didn't realise how many petrol hybrids there are out there, almost as many as petrol if these figures are to be believed.

https://evdb.nz/ev-percentage-nz

Still, an increase in the excise tax would be a far simpler mechanism to compensate for any funding shortfalls, and they could do that tomorrow. that would further confuse the issue with plug in hybrids I think there needs to be a revisit to the ruc price to plug ins as they pay rughly 5/8 of the full ruc charge . Surely the ruc charge should be the average range on the battery of the plug in / the average range of a full ev as a fraction of 7.6c

[neels]

I didn't realise how many petrol hybrids there are out there, almost as many as petrol if these figures are to be believed.

https://evdb.nz/ev-percentage-nz

Still, an increase in the excise tax would be a far simpler mechanism to compensate for any funding shortfalls, and they could do that tomorrow.

That is a significant percentage, then again everywhere you look is a toyota hybrid with red stickers above the door handles.

Increasing the excise on fuel would serve to punish two very different groups, people at the bottom of the food chain who can't front the capital for a more efficient car, and those who can afford to buy enormous european SUVs with terrible fuel economy. The second group are probably the ones the current government would be trying not to upset.

Applying RUC to everything would be a simple mechanism where if you use the road you pay, although at present it's a fairly blunt instrument on diesels where a 1000kg Ford Fiesta pays the same as a 2500kg Ford Everest, so there's no cost incentive to have a more fuel efficient vehicle.

[nerrrd]

At least an increase in excise tax is something you pay as you go, unlike RUCs where you have to pay upfront, which may actually be better for those who can't afford a more efficient car?

Look there won't be a perfect system, which makes me sceptical that the administration costs of changing everyone to RUCs won't eat up most of the extra funds it's supposed to bring in, therefore requiring even bigger charges.

[BMWST?]

That is a significant percentage, then again everywhere you look is a toyota hybrid with red stickers above the door handles.

Increasing the excise on fuel would serve to punish two very different groups, people at the bottom of the food chain who can't front the capital for a more efficient car, and those who can afford to buy enormous european SUVs with terrible fuel economy. The second group are probably the ones the current government would be trying not to upset.

Applying RUC to everything would be a simple mechanism where if you use the road you pay, although at present it's a fairly blunt instrument on diesels where a 1000kg Ford Fiesta pays the same as a 2500kg Ford Everest, so there's no cost incentive to have a more fuel efficient vehicle.
a "light diesel can be up to3500kg .I agree there should be anther weight band in there. We once considered a really small diesel car .The idea of paying the same ruc as a 4500v8 toyota landcruiser seemed a bit ridiculous for a 1.4 litre diesel

[Moise]

The RUC bands are based on the fully loaded weight - it was designed for trucks after all. So larger SUVs will be in band 2 and pay a slightly higher rate.

It needs a lot of work to be equitable for light vehicles.

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[rastuscat]

The RUC bands are based on the fully loaded weight - it was designed for trucks after all. So larger SUVs will be in band 2 and pay a slightly higher rate.

It needs a lot of work to be equitable for light vehicles.

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

And how that is going to apply to bicycles is yet to be raised.

[R650R]

That and ending free school lunches for kids in low decile schools. Whatever it take to cut taxs for the rich.

That’s ending because even the labour govt didn’t allocate more funding in budget and their own report said it was making no difference overall. It’s one of those ideas that sounds great but implementation through govt beauracracy causes wastage.

[R650R]

that wont work with the current system.The purchase of RUC is virtually a manual transaction.I cant see it working if suddenly there are millions of users rather than thousands.However I think it s the way forward as the plug in hybrid users are paying twice ..They pay 5.5 cents a kilometre RUC whilst pure BEV and light(less than 3.5 tonne) diesels pay 7.6. non plug in hybrids pay nothing .They use far less petrol but still use the roads

It’s been available automatic/electronically for well over ten years in NZ, check out e-road.
Trucking company managers love it as you can setup auto purchase and you won’t be getting fines for failing to display current label cause a driver left it in smoko room.
Also-road enables claiming back off-highway mileage which can be surprisingly high.

Technology is progressing fast and on the back of everyone using covid tracer apps we will soon be hit with the MyDriver App. This will be a digital format of your driver licence, will use GPS to auto detect speeding and crashes and auto-fine you via your banking account. It will also autopay any parking charges and summarize your carbon emissions which will govern your allowed allocation of travel kms as a private citizen each year.

The arguments in support will be freeing up cops for more important stuff and stopping the oppression of the poor who get fines for forgetting to buy rego.

Also you WOF will be a QR code sticker you scan before every trip. No WOF no drive and ANPR camera will detect movement of any vehicle not logged in via phone system.

[pete376403]

That’s ending because even the labour govt didn’t allocate more funding in budget and their own report said it was making no difference overall. It’s one of those ideas that sounds great but implementation through govt beauracracy causes wastage.


Is that another example of those "alternative facts" you specialise in ?

11 AUGUST 2021
School lunches evaluation report finds the programme is working
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/school-lunches-evaluation-report-finds-programme-working

[R650R]

A decent rail system that gets the heavy freight off the roads wouldn't go amiss either, but the NactFirsts are ideologically committed to road over rail. And I'd agree that Fulton Hogan and the like dont want to fix the roads too well, otherwise, what do they do later

WhoÂ’s gonna pay for that??? The taxpayer.

Who benefits???? Mostly wealthy large companies who have enough bulk product

At What cost???? Massive earthworks loss of productive land, huge taxes/inflation to pay for it.

We are lucky we have the rail network now that was built in cheaper times. The cost today to expand it enough to take a significant amount of “ trucks off the road” is just off the charts crazy.
People who play with toy train sets donÂ’t realise what happens when you scale that up to real world.In you trainset world you donÂ’t pay for real estate, you donÂ’t have noise or labour shortages affecting operation .

We are a very small country that is spared from third world status thanks to our early days when our colonial fathers in Britain bought our meat butter and wool to help pay for stuff.
Right now we are nearly broke. There is no money and also not enough vacant land in right places to build rail heads required for the mega rail freight utopia to work.
Currently kiwirail is building a massive new hub at Palmerston North that will be great but there are few other opportunities around the country to do this.

Trucking companies actually like rail and use it for some freight types it costs about same and frees truck up for other work/revenue.
But turnaround times for freight handling vs direct delivery by a truck in modern world is limiting factor.
As a customer you have to be accepting a 3-5day window at best compared to overnight and pay for the extra storage and double handling costs.
Rail really only suits bulk commodities which is where itÂ’s at now, coal, milk, timber.
ThereÂ’s a lot of other stuff the country needs and it travels on trucks.

And you only have to travel to countries with great rail networks like UK or USA to see trucking is still a major component of not the dominant form of transport.
ItÂ’s just like saying theoretically we could all push bike to work and save the planet and not pay petrol tax. But we know in practically carrying tools or wet weather gear etc that personal cars works better etc.

[R650R]

Is that another example of those "alternative facts" you specialise in ?

11 AUGUST 2021
School lunches evaluation report finds the programme is working
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/school-lunches-evaluation-report-finds-programme-working

Usually when measuring something we go with up to date information

2023

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/493640/treasury-unsure-school-lunch-scheme-represents-value-for-money-budget-document

[pete376403]

WhoÂ’s gonna pay for that??? The taxpayer..

Who pays for everything - the taxpayer. Roads didn't, and still dont pay for themselves.
Also - most of the land required for rail is already used for rail, unlike the new roads that are taking more land. The lines themselves and the infrastructure need maintenance and upgrading. It's funny how thre is never any money for rail, but roads can get what they want.
Yes there is a bit of double handling, but there is that anyway - no B-train ever pulls up outside my house to deliver a courier pack. And three days (minimum) for a parcel from Auckland to Wellington is considered pretty good, even though it never goes anywhere near a rail wagon.
Ant the USA has a SHIT rail network compared to Europe

[nerrrd]

It’s been available automatic/electronically for well over ten years in NZ, check out e-road.
Trucking company managers love it as you can setup auto purchase and you won’t be getting fines for failing to display current label cause a driver left it in smoko room.
Also-road enables claiming back off-highway mileage which can be surprisingly high.

Technology is progressing fast and on the back of everyone using covid tracer apps we will soon be hit with the MyDriver App. This will be a digital format of your driver licence, will use GPS to auto detect speeding and crashes and auto-fine you via your banking account. It will also autopay any parking charges and summarize your carbon emissions which will govern your allowed allocation of travel kms as a private citizen each year.

The arguments in support will be freeing up cops for more important stuff and stopping the oppression of the poor who get fines for forgetting to buy rego.

Also you WOF will be a QR code sticker you scan before every trip. No WOF no drive and ANPR camera will detect movement of any vehicle not logged in via phone system.

Eroad looks interesting, but they'll need to be able to scale it up by a factor of 10 to handle light vehicles (91% of the fleet). That's not going to be cheap, plus the hardware costs (without the business write-off), data storage and privacy implications...when they could just put the excise tax up.

I'm not sure the Covid app ever worked, wasn't that why we had to manually scan QR codes ourselves all the time?

Oh, and I'm happy to let bicycles off the hook.

[R650R]

Who pays for everything - the taxpayer. Roads didn't, and still dont pay for themselves.
Also - most of the land required for rail is already used for rail, unlike the new roads that are taking more land. The lines themselves and the infrastructure need maintenance and upgrading. It's funny how thre is never any money for rail, but roads can get what they want.


Labour just had six years of a pure majority to do what they liked, what happened with rail some improvements but mostly nothing. Even with grant robetsons helicopter cash spray and pray they couldn’t bring themselves to invest in rail properly.
A lot of rail land is gone, our rail head now has a PaknSave on it.
Really for it to work we need double rail lines everywhere so trains can run both ways. A lot of there network is already at capacity.
Unless you’ve worked in industry and seen both modes you’ll never understand that they are complimentary and we need both in a functioning modern industrial society. There is no magic way to “ get rid of trucks”.
Our existing rail is also narrow gauge. The tracks are too close together for high speed rail and also the lack of width means not stable enough for the double stack container trains they use in USA.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACNeDxew5Q4&pp=ygURR2VybWFuIHJhaWwgeWFyZCA%3D

[R650R]

Eroad looks interesting, but they'll need to be able to scale it up by a factor of 10 to handle light vehicles (91% of the fleet). That's not going to be cheap, plus the hardware costs (without the business write-off), data storage and privacy implications...when they could just put the excise tax up.

I'm not sure the Covid app ever worked, wasn't that why we had to manually scan QR codes ourselves all the time?

Oh, and I'm happy to let bicycles off the hook.

It’s a profitable business now I’m sure plenty will invest the capital needed when the business has gauranteed income!!!

May I refer you to the single source of truth who said covid app saved lives undoubtedly….

[pete376403]

Labour just had six years of a pure majority to do what they liked, what happened with rail some improvements but mostly nothing. Even with grant robetsons helicopter cash spray and pray they couldn’t bring themselves to invest in rail properly.
Really for it to work we need double rail lines everywhere so trains can run both ways.

The line that runs right behind my house was (originally) double tracked, then at considerable expense the second, unused tracks were removed and the road crossing converted to a single, about 15-20 years ago. Then in the past couple of years, converted back to double tracks and crossings to allow for the log trains from Waiararapa to Wellington harbour without having to schedule around the half-hourly commuter trains. So it can be done. in places, without the need for more land

[nerrrd]

It’s a profitable business now I’m sure plenty will invest the capital needed when the business has gauranteed income!!!

Yes, guaranteed millions from everyone in set up and running costs before a single cent is spent on the roads. And scaling isn't always straightforward.


May I refer you to the single source of truth who said covid app saved lives undoubtedly….

Dunno about that, but it was supposed to automatically do something with bluetooth in the background, which I don't think ever got used in the end.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/126261938/no-straight-answer-from-health-ministry-on-nonuse-of-bluetooth-tracing