500cc GP Replica thread

[onearmedbandit]

With this bike coming up in my facebook feed recently, and all the other 500cc rep's out there, I figured I'd start a thread so the lovers of these bikes can all have a perv and add others that might be of interest too.

https://rupesrewires.com/honda-nsr500-replica-3/#prettyPhoto

[onearmedbandit]

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Gorgeous!!

[onearmedbandit]

Have to add Samron Jude's channel too.

https://www.youtube.com/@samronjude

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Rfu56oRBq5o?si=1hX2DDpIkWXqvaWJ" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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[pete376403]

There is no finer replica than Geaorge Beales recreation of the Honda 6 (even if it is not a 500) I would buy the book but 75 pounds plus postage would raise a few eyebrows in the household. Fuck it, should get it anyway.
https://charterhouse-bikes.com/book

[onearmedbandit]

There is no finer replica than Geaorge Beales recreation of the Honda 6 (even if it is not a 500) I would buy the book but 75 pounds plus postage would raise a few eyebrows in the household. Fuck it, should get it anyway.


Ok you win with that entry!

[jato]

Years ago i read an article (with heaps of photos) about building the replica Honda 6s - deeply impressive even with a genuine one to copy. i believe they were bought for half a million a piece as soon as they were completed. https://www.rideapart.com/news/496543/george-beale-honda-rc174-replica/

[jato]

Re the 500 replicas there is/was a guy near tauranga a year or so back doing a pretty respectable job of building an NSR 500 replica engine using nsr 250 streetbike cranks and pos cr125 cylinders... in the stage it was at back then it looked like the real thing . i'll see if i can find out what progress has been made

[pete376403]

Ok you win with that entry!

I emailed the vendor - book would be 120 pounds inc postage. - $248.20, Think I'll do it, what's the worst that could happen?:shit:

I've posted this picture before and I'll never get tired of looking at it, Would make a superb A3 sized poster

[F5 Dave]

Re the 500 replicas there is/was a guy near tauranga a year or so back doing a pretty respectable job of building an NSR 500 replica engine using nsr 250 streetbike cranks and pos cr125 cylinders... in the stage it was at back then it looked like the real thing . i'll see if i can find out what progress has been made

Wonder what happened to Nigels RGV? He offered it to me but it really wasn't a roadbike which is what I wanted to build.
Not sure who bought it. Could give him a text but. .

[jellywrestler]

I emailed the vendor - book would be 120 pounds inc postage. - $248.20, Think I'll do it, what's the worst that could happen?:shit:

I've posted this picture before and I'll never get tired of looking at it, Would make a superb A3 sized poster


if you do it this way you've got about the right amount of change to grab a copy of my book .....

although he is out of stock.


https://www.graemecrosby.co.nz/shop/Products/Accessories+and+promotional+items/HONDA+RC174+SIX+-+RECREATING+A+MASTERPIECE+by+George+Beale+-+NOW+AVAILABLE/x_sku/02348.html

[onearmedbandit]

https://costinmotorcycleengineering.com.au

Get your order in!

[Berries]

https://costinmotorcycleengineering.com.au

Get your order in!
Oh dear.


Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.


How will I explain this one to the wife?

[Grumph]

Oh dear.


Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.


How will I explain this one to the wife?

I think it would be lost in the noise surrounding the required lotto win.....

[pritch]

Back in the days of two stroke GP bikes the mechanics used to take a conrod and cut a piece of the little end out in such a way that the conrod functioned as a bottle opener. Alex Briggs produced some aluminium replicas and I bought one, which is as close as I'll get to owning any of that confectionary.

[F5 Dave]

Ha! Nice.

10 char

[roogazza]

Back in the days of two stroke GP bikes the mechanics used to take a conrod and cut a piece of the little end out in such a way that the conrod functioned as a bottle opener. Alex Briggs produced some aluminium replicas and I bought one, which is as close as I'll get to owning any of that confectionary.

Think I met him, Rossi mechanic right ??? nice fella.... :yes:

[jellywrestler]

Marshall Motorcycles owner Wayne has made a stunning job of this weapon with the help of Steve Roberts in wanganui
they are on the start finish line of the cemetery circuit

[pete376403]

Back in the days of two stroke GP bikes the mechanics used to take a conrod and cut a piece of the little end out in such a way that the conrod functioned as a bottle opener. Alex Briggs produced some aluminium replicas and I bought one, which is as close as I'll get to owning any of that confectionary.

Not a bottle opener but back in the swansong days of the NR500, but while the exact configuration of the engine was still unknown, Cycle magazine was given a single conrod. From that they (either Jennings or Cameron) were able to posit the design of the engine to what turned out to be a remarkable degree of accuracy. I miss that degree of technical journalism. Cameron does still write for Cycle World, but not quite to the same depth

[Grumph]

Not a bottle opener but back in the swansong days of the NR500, but while the exact configuration of the engine was still unknown, Cycle magazine was given a single conrod. From that they (either Jennings or Cameron) were able to posit the design of the engine to what turned out to be a remarkable degree of accuracy. I miss that degree of technical journalism. Cameron does still write for Cycle World, but not quite to the same depth

I miss it too. There doesn't seem to be the required level of knowledge in the current wriers/commentators on the sport now.
You can go back to S.C.H. Davis prewar and postwar, followed by Phil Irving and others in the 50's and 60's then Jennings and Cameron. Don't know whether Cathcart is still writing but he seems to have been the last of the technical writers who could ride as well. The ex riders who do columns don't have the technical background their predecessors did.
When the book on the current fourstroke era is published I probably won't be around to see it. Bugger. No idea who's going to write it either.
If there's a book on the last of the 2 stroke era I'd love to see it. If there isn't one, it had better be done soon as those guys are dying off.

[F5 Dave]

Cameron did a good one on GP engines about 15 years ago.

Not written, but did you hear Crafer explain in about a 20 second burst under live pressure at Mugello what was likely happening with MMs ride height mechanism being the likely cause of smoke over a bump, how it works and why, and what was likely wrong, all without a breath or um, ah.
That was focused.

[Grumph]

Yeah, seen Cameron's book. What's needed is one or more like The Grand Prix Car Vol 1 & 2 By Laurence Pomeroy. Analyses the periods covered in detail, races, results and mechanical trends. Then analyses examples of the cars. In fine, exploded detail. He had been editor of The Motor and his dad Vauxhall designer in the
early years. Qualified Mech Engineer too. Vic Willoughby was probably the closest writer - his The Racing Motorcycle is very similar style. But stops just when things get interesting.

20 second information bursts are what Si gets paid for. He's better at it than you or I would be so he gets the big bucks. And good on him too.

[F5 Dave]

Bradley's book on racing motorcycle is good, bit old and crazy expensive. Only borrowed it otherwise I'd send it down as was considering with the Cameron book.

[Grumph]

Bradley's book on racing motorcycle is good, bit old and crazy expensive. Only borrowed it otherwise I'd send it down as was considering with the Cameron book.

I've got vol 2 and the last one - 3 or 4 ? Vol One is theory. Two you need if you're building anything.
Last one is more about tyres than anything else.

[pritch]

Don't know whether Cathcart is still writing but he seems to have been the last of the technical writers who could ride as well. The ex riders who do columns don't have the technical background their predecessors did.


Hugh Anderson and his Suzuki mechanic used to strip the engines and remove high spots after practice.

Then there's this:
https://mike-thistledown.blogspot.com/2015/09/winning-through-adversity.html

Shepherd doesn't mention it in this account but as part of the solution to the lower octane rating in the US he also had to fit extra gasket(s) to lower the compression.

[F5 Dave]

I'll read that more fully later.

My cat is named Kaaden.

[jato]

while not bike related, this "tour" of the factory producing merlins is pretty impressive imho esp considering the stakes were so high and the result was so good. there can't be any weak links building building a light powerful and reliable engine and you've got to say the poms did real good... https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+rolls+royce+merlin+factory&oq=youtube+rolls+royce+merlin+factory&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l2.27466j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6e49f6f1,vid:-fo7SmNuUU4,st:0

[pete376403]

Hugh Anderson and his Suzuki mechanic used to strip the engines and remove high spots after practice.

Then there's this:
https://mike-thistledown.blogspot.com/2015/09/winning-through-adversity.html

Shepherd doesn't mention it in this account but as part of the solution to the lower octane ratio in the US he also had to fit extra gasket(s) to lower the compression.
Honda had to run low octane in the super high tevving multis in the '60s becuase high octane didnt burn fast enough at 22,000 rpm

[Grumph]

while not bike related, this "tour" of the factory producing merlins is pretty impressive imho esp considering the stakes were so high and the result was so good. there can't be any weak links building building a light powerful and reliable engine and you've got to say the poms did real good... https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+rolls+royce+merlin+factory&oq=youtube+rolls+royce+merlin+factory&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l2.27466j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6e49f6f1,vid:-fo7SmNuUU4,st:0

My understanding is that it was only when Packard redrew the engine with tolerances on parts which made them suitable for mass production that it became a feasible front line engine. Packard out-produced RR and the Packard built engines had a much better reliabilty record.
RR stuff was basically hand built in small batches. Which is what they were used to. Good book by an insider at RR who later became MD, Not Much Of An Engineer.
Author name Sir Stanley Hooker. Designed and developed the blowers which gave big HP gains. Later designed the early Jets.

[pritch]

My understanding is that it was only when Packard redrew the engine with tolerances on parts which made them suitable for mass production that it became a feasible front line engine. Packard out-produced RR and the Packard built engines had a much better reliabilty record.
RR stuff was basically hand built in small batches. Which is what they were used to. Good book by an insider at RR who later became MD, Not Much Of An Engineer.
Author name Sir Stanley Hooker. Designed and developed the blowers which gave big HP gains. Later designed the early Jets.

Umm it's probably also a consideration that the Brit factories had to be hidden from prying eyes despite which there may have been bomb damage to their factories or those of suppliers.
No such concerns at Packard.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-68383619

[jato]

Absolutely Pritch - and wartime england didn't have too many spare fitter turners in 1939 so the design of the factory processes and to some degree the engine itself had to take into account that unskilled (semi-skilled?) workers would be building the engine. it may of been a different video but even where the entrances to the buildings were planned to help efficiency and firefighting in case the germans bombed the place. i look at the bloke with no glasses or earmuffs banging out con rods on that forging machine and then watch genuine footage of a young pilot screaming down in a steep dive dog-fighting a messerschmitt and you've got to say the poms did real good... (sorry Fraser - plenty of thread drift here...)

[SaferRides]

My understanding is that it was only when Packard redrew the engine with tolerances on parts which made them suitable for mass production that it became a feasible front line engine. Packard out-produced RR and the Packard built engines had a much better reliabilty record.
RR stuff was basically hand built in small batches. Which is what they were used to. Good book by an insider at RR who later became MD, Not Much Of An Engineer.
Author name Sir Stanley Hooker. Designed and developed the blowers which gave big HP gains. Later designed the early Jets.Not quite correct, check out Wikipedia for details of Merlin production in the UK. Ford actually built the most in Britain (30,000) at their factory in Trafford Park. In total, twice as many Merlins were made in the UK than the US.

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

[pete376403]

Early RR engines were known to use “file to fit” assembly, but by the time Packard started manufacturing, quality, and tolerances were understood to be much more refined. Packard contributed significantly to the design of the engine, especially in terms of simplifying manufacturer and construction.

There’s an interesting thread here on the topic. https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/packard-vs-rolls-royce-merlins.38825/

Which is getting a long way from 500m GP replicas

[Grumph]

The only relevance really is that these modern GP replicas are probably reverse engineered from an original.
Rather than castings to be machined I suspect they're CNC'd from billets. Yes, barrels excepted I'd imagine.
The relatively small physical size of components makes this feasible. Unlike say, a Merlin crankcase/block.

[F5 Dave]

There's a great several part series podcasts called spitfire that explains how the plane manufacturing was spread out in all sorts of places to hide it.

[SaferRides]

Early RR engines were known to use “file to fit” assembly, but by the time Packard started manufacturing, quality, and tolerances were understood to be much more refined. Packard contributed significantly to the design of the engine, especially in terms of simplifying manufacturer and construction.

There’s an interesting thread here on the topic. https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/packard-vs-rolls-royce-merlins.38825/

Which is getting a long way from 500m GP replicasThat's an interesting link, and there's also a considerable amount of information on Quora about WW2 aircraft engines. It's good to see RR still pushing the boundaries in jet engine design, even if they do have occasional problems.

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[husaberg]

Not quite correct, check out Wikipedia for details of Merlin production in the UK. Ford actually built the most in Britain (30,000) at their factory in Trafford Park. In total, twice as many Merlins were made in the UK than the US.

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk
In Here it says RR bulilt 32,000 Merlin's at their factory.
ford or others it seems had other factories in the UK though.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-story-of-when-ford-uk-refused-to-build-rolls-royce-merlin-engines-because-the-tolerances-rolls-royce-allowed-were-looser-than-ford-was-willing-to-work-with/


The final total came to 30,428. This was only 2,000 less than the main Rolls-Royce plant at Nightingale Road, Derby (although there were several other plants producing Merlins in the UK.

Ford used their experience in having access to the Merlin and drawings to build this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GAA_engine


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p9eyUAIcX8

[SaferRides]

In Here it says RR bulilt 32,000 Merlin's at their factory.
ford or others it seems had other factories in the UK though.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-story-of-when-ford-uk-refused-to-build-rolls-royce-merlin-engines-because-the-tolerances-rolls-royce-allowed-were-looser-than-ford-was-willing-to-work-with/



Ford used their experience in having access to the Merlin and drawings to build this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GAA_engine


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p9eyUAIcX8Now that's a big V8!

The Ford factory built the most Merlins during the war. The Derby factory continued production for a number of years after WW2 ended. RR built another factory at Crewe and there was also a factory in Glasgow.

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[onearmedbandit]

Tastefully done.

[onearmedbandit]

KB site software is out dated...

[F5 Dave]

Tasteful except the clutch cover:no: and the pointless carbon covers on sw/arm and triple. <_<.

Retaining the std linkage is easier but there's room and good reason to go conventional.

[Grumph]

Pegs IMO are too far forward. Would suit a shortarse but not anyone over 5'6.

[husaberg]

Pegs IMO are too far forward. Would suit a shortarse but not anyone over 5'6.

Yeah, They should be a little back beyond the line from the tank about 2 inches further back.



355290355291

[onearmedbandit]

Not that far back on the original.

[onearmedbandit]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/r23PhxMAkBk?si=cUblUfP6U1Vfv835" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yes please.

[F5 Dave]

Looks like a 3MA reverse cylinder frame. A mate has the RZ and the frame, pipes, usd forks 17" wheels.
Just needs to sew them together. No rush. Been in his lounge for 20 years.

[onearmedbandit]

Looks like a 3MA reverse cylinder frame. A mate has the RZ and the frame, pipes, usd forks 17" wheels.
Just needs to sew them together. No rush. Been in his lounge for 20 years.

Some of the build info is in the description on YT


Yamaha TZR 4DL frame with V5
Yamaha TZR 4DL Belgrade tank - Made in Italy
Kawasaki ZXR 750 swing arm
Suzuki GSXR front forks with gold nitrate plated tubes
Yamaha RD500 engine beautifully made to fit with a cradle in the frame and modded with output of around 100hp on the back wheel
Zeeltronic ignition system
BDK racing lightened rotor
YZR500 body kit
Rear brake on left side like thumb brake style
Brembo 19RCS brake cylinder on the front brake
JLs YZR exhaust system in stainless steel
Ducati GP quick releases, koyo small speed dash with old school YZR500 style rpm and voltage in dash.
Price 20k pounds firm - plus delivery

Contact me for sale - Samronjude@gmail.com
+447933838680

[F5 Dave]

Ah, the 4dl is the 125. But actually it was some Italian tie up. They basically used the 3MA frame and built a 125 for Yamaha Belgarda or something like that. The SZR660 was a similar arrangement apparently.

[husaberg]

355720
Ah, the 4dl is the 125. But actually it was some Italian tie up. They basically used the 3MA frame and built a 125 for Yamaha Belgarda or something like that. The SZR660 was a similar arrangement apparently.

yeah they also by the looks of it either used brembo wheels or at least the mold on all the Yamahas of the period either made in Italy or Japan and I guess ended up buying brembo and then Ohlins. The Ohlins on My 851 were afaik only ever used on Bimotas and works Yamaha's and Cagiva who shared tech engines and designs.
the 6 Bolt Yamaha discs even going back to the RD A's and XS650 all had the same bolt pattern as the 90's to early 2000's Dukes.
the 660 was I believe an idea direct from the Italians after the build a semi works sos racer from a Tenere desert bike. (pirovani?)


the R6/R1 Blue spots I think have the same pads as a similar era Brembo gold 4 pt. One Pin
Brembo even made a caliper in Yamaha bolt spacing for the XJR. std brembo is 40mm or 65mm for Ducati


355714355720355721

where as Yamaha is edit 100mm were those Yamaha the same RZ or I think those triumph calipers you were selling a while back 100 or? or 83mm?
so if you wanted to you could bolt on 4 pot brembos to a 90s Yamaha like a 87 tZR250 or 90's FZR250-1000 to replace the simototo? calipers without an adaptor as long as you used the ones from a XJR400R or XJR1300R.

[F5 Dave]

I fitted Blue spots to my yzf750SP, just tickle off a flashing and use the smaller mc. Ran Aprilia discs when yam warped.

[SaferRides]

the R6/R1 Blue spots I think have the same pads as a similar era Brembo gold 4 pt. One Pin
Brembo even made a caliper in Yamaha bolt spacing for the XJR. std brembo is 40mm or 65mm for Ducati
.
The current model R1 uses the same pads, along with some others like the MT10, so there are plenty of pad options.

The gold spots fitted to the 02-03 R1 are the ones to go for as they have ceramic coated pistons. Nice.

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[husaberg]

The current model R1 uses the same pads, along with some others like the MT10, so there are plenty of pad options.

The gold spots fitted to the 02-03 R1 are the ones to go for as they have ceramic coated pistons. Nice.

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Not sure but weren't the pistons ti?

[SaferRides]

Not sure but wern't the pistons ti?They are a dull grey colour, similar to an AFAM aluminium rear sprocket, which has a hard coating. They are quite thick, so I'd guess they are aluminium but maybe not ceramic coated.

Google wasn't much help but apparently aluminium pistons are a Bad Thing in brake callipers because they transfer heat well. Might explain a couple of experiences I've had!

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[F5 Dave]

That makes sense re ally. For some reason my old H100 bucket had a ally piston that Kev the old owner mahoned up for some reason lost to time. It was after he gave me the bike as it was converted to disc in my care, and I probably paid for it.
Maybe I'd exclaimed the rust damage and he offered to make one. I do recall being surprised at being ally as I'd only ever seen Ferrous material. It was castellated so less contact area on pads. Worked just fine on an 80 kilo bucket.

[SaferRides]

I can buy castellated s/s pistons from Europe for ridiculous money, which is probably the best material to reduce heat transfer. But not for street use, and anyway, I'd change to 320 mm discs if I ever upgrade the brakes.

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[husaberg]

They are a dull grey colour, similar to an AFAM aluminium rear sprocket, which has a hard coating. They are quite thick, so I'd guess they are aluminium but maybe not ceramic coated.

Google wasn't much help but apparently aluminium pistons are a Bad Thing in brake callipers because they transfer heat well. Might explain a couple of experiences I've had!

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk


That makes sense re ally. For some reason my old H100 bucket had a ally piston that Kev the old owner mahoned up for some reason lost to time. It was after he gave me the bike as it was converted to disc in my care, and I probably paid for it.
Maybe I'd exclaimed the rust damage and he offered to make one. I do recall being surprised at being ally as I'd only ever seen Ferrous material. It was castellated so less contact area on pads. Worked just fine on an 80 kilo bucket.




yip according to this (https://fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16543.0)
good stuff here (https://www.venturerider.org/forum/forums/topic/31841-r1r6-caliper-question/) also

I had forgotten the real early R1 had those blue spots with the horrible external line.

The blue are steel the gold are alloy ceramic coated would make sense as this would stop the hurt being transformed to he alloy.
looks like the seals wear faster n the golds but are cheaper and you can put gold pistons in the blue calipers
Also it seems the tools to undo the ends are available as well as the piston extractor toos for the other side.

looks like someone does newer r1 in ti castleated
https://titanclassics.com/product/yzf-r1-5pw-4-x-titanium-caliper-pistons/

[F5 Dave]

No they didn't have external lines. The Thunderace had external lines. By the R1 they had disappeared.

People made the mistake of not changing the 5/8" mc most bikes of that era had for the 14mm, reducing the benefit possible.

[husaberg]

No they didn't have external lines. The Thunderace had external lines. By the R1 they had disappeared.

People made the mistake of not changing the 5/8" mc most bikes of that era had for the 14mm, reducing the benefit possible.

yeah totally right you are, I forgot those hideous pair of thunderthighs.

According to all the TZR ikt stuff I have read For a single bluespot/goldspot supposed to be the butter zone of 1/2"/12.7mm , but not sure what that translates to in a radial MC.
My sons Supermoto has a beautiful Motomaster billet 4 and tiny radial (both in 11mm and later 12mm) 320mm full floating rotor with either it's a magic combo. But right on the limit at Ruapuna for fade as it doesn't get any cooling air tucked behind the forks and inside the fat tire/rim. I think a cooling scoop would fix it (but it fails on looking cool to the 20 year old)

Brembo on the 30/34 recommend 13mm for a single and 16mm for the twins. Which I think is just fractional larger than 5/8/15.8mm
My CR5AF Supermoto had a Honda RS125 Brembo and Nissin MC set up it felt perfect.

I once tried out someones bike that had far to small a Mc, it didn't shift enough flulid ,its was a hard pull with a shit amount of power. worst of everything.

http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm

[F5 Dave]

Wrong way around or confused.

A small mc will indeed shift less fluid for the travel. A too big one will have a stiff lever and crucially Less leverage. That produces less power at the caliper.

Smaller may come right into the bar. Braided lines improve that over rubber, there will be mondo leverage but too small feels like it can't be bled properly.

[SaferRides]

yip according to this (https://fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16543.0)
good stuff here (https://www.venturerider.org/forum/forums/topic/31841-r1r6-caliper-question/) also

I had forgotten the real early R1 had those blue spots with the horrible external line.

The blue are steel the gold are alloy ceramic coated would make sense as this would stop the hurt being transformed to he alloy.
looks like the seals wear faster n the golds but are cheaper and you can put gold pistons in the blue calipers
Also it seems the tools to undo the ends are available as well as the piston extractor toos for the other side.

looks like someone does newer r1 in ti castleated
https://titanclassics.com/product/yzf-r1-5pw-4-x-titanium-caliper-pistons/All interesting stuff. I bought the gold spots off a very low mileage 02-03 R1 - they still had a set of original, barely worn Sumitomo pads! But the pistons were quite sticky and didn't retract properly, so I pumped them partly out, cleaned, and gave them a very thin smear of brake grease. All good after that, but one pad had worn unevenly when I changed them at the weekend so it may be time for new seals.

I might pass on the Ti pistons!

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[F5 Dave]

Pop the seals out and clean out the white gunge that grows behind and pushes the seals out causing drag.

Inspect seals under a magnifying glass . Use an appropriatepick and dont skewer them. Usually the seals remain square and sharp so aren't actually worn, unless they are.

It's the outer dust seals that can be twisted. Inspect carefully.

Brass chimney sweep penny on a stick brushes on a dremmel work great. Eye protection and brake clean, dry before putting seals back in.

[husaberg]

Wrong way around or confused.

A small mc will indeed shift less fluid for the travel. A too big one will have a stiff lever and crucially Less leverage. That produces less power at the caliper.

Smaller may come right into the bar. Braided lines improve that over rubber, there will be mondo leverage but too small feels like it can't be bled properly.

okay wrong way round, everyday is a school day, all I remember is it was herculean effort to do nothing with no real feel either.

[F5 Dave]

Think of it as a long brake lever (small) vs short (big bore). Go to extremes. 300mm lever. 50mm lever.

Also Shows why shorty lever that were so fashionable on roadbikes are silly.

[husaberg]

Think of it as a long brake lever (small) vs short (big bore). Go to extremes. 300mm lever. 50mm lever.

Also Shows why shorty lever that were so fashionable on roadbikes are silly.

okay...cheers a school day.
The only time to me shorties made sense was on say an old xr200 for the clutch as those old short deg legged ones they were less likely to break as they never poke out (prior to spring loaded ones being made affordable/findable )and were cheap if they ever did. lever perch combo made sure they could be replaced easy as well plus we're ball ended
I used to always use accessory honda XR/cr pattern ones and perch for the bucket clutch or any offroader as every motorbike shop in nz had one....
but always gen or a exp aftermarket for the brakes. As they were better made more malleable less pot metal.
The cheesy shorty on the Dogcati didn't even lock the wheel but the genius who put it on also had the switch block partially blocking it.:laugh:
better quality levers have a bush or occasionally a bearing in the pivot (Berg/KTM.) I drilled out and put a bush in a gen slogged out clutch lever the other day to keep it as a spare. As the previous animal had used a std bolt in the perch which wore the hole oval. That cost a set of clutch plates as I thought it had freeboard only instead it was the lever moving on the tard.
but TBH some as you say some pattern clutch are just useless. shorty or not.
hand-guards on the Supermoto are awesome, a crash = at worst is a wipe dust off loosen pinch-bolts and straighten up the fork angle in a handy tree/gap fence
No stove'd in pipe broken fairing or brackets levers etc

[F5 Dave]

I have cheapo levers for most bikes cable tied out of the way just in case I need them. Better to ride home with a dumb lever than no lever at all.

[SaferRides]

Think of it as a long brake lever (small) vs short (big bore). Go to extremes. 300mm lever. 50mm lever.

Also Shows why shorty lever that were so fashionable on roadbikes are silly.We'll, it depends. I have a shorty brake lever on the R1 and with my hand in its normal position on the throttle, my first 3 fingers fit comfortably on the straight part of the brake lever. I could not get more leverage from a standard lever unless I slid the palm of my hand past the end of the grip.

Plus I do almost all of my braking with 2 fingers.

I'll just get standard length next time though, but I find the dog leg levers much more comfortable than the standard curved ones.

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[F5 Dave]

Try both levers. You may get surprised how the two fingers slide further on application with a longer lever. I put cute shorty's on my 675, thinking that. Were a bit square feeling, but the looked better. Wombled on for about a year. Swapped a ride on a mate's to show off my suspension and then noticed his brakes were much better.

Got home, put std levers on, and test rode. Brake upgrade for free.
Shorty's got cable tied under sidecover.

[Kickaha]

We'll, it depends. I have a shorty brake lever on the R1 and with my hand in its normal position on the throttle, my first 3 fingers fit comfortably on the straight part of the brake lever. I could not get more leverage from a standard lever unless I slid the palm of my hand past the end of the grip.

Are you able to move the master cylinder further inboard on the bar, that's what I do with stock levers where possible to position them better

[SaferRides]

Are you able to move the master cylinder further inboard on the bar, that's what I do with stock levers where possible to position them betterYes, I've done that on other bikes, but with the clipons on the R1 there isn't clearance. I can only just adjust the lever angle to something reasonable.

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[SaferRides]

Try both levers. You may get surprised how the two fingers slide further on application with a longer lever. I put cute shorty's on my 675, thinking that. Were a bit square feeling, but the looked better. Wombled on for about a year. Swapped a ride on a mate's to show off my suspension and then noticed his brakes were much better.

Got home, put std levers on, and test rode. Brake upgrade for free.
Shorty's got cable tied under sidecover.I have the standard levers so can try that. I did use the clutch lever a while ago, but it felt quite uncomfortable because of the profile.

Once the brakes are warm, I have no trouble applying enough force. The first stop with cold pads always needs more of a squeeze, but all sintered pads seem like that.

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