Higher octane fuels in lower south island

[Berries]

So I am dredging this old thread really but figured nobody would read it in that part of the forum - Race-fuel-in-the-S-I (https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/186008-Race-fuel-in-the-S-I)

Just got me a bike where the manual recommends 98 octane. The three stations near me only go to 95 so it is a 30km round trip to Dunedin to fill up at one of the self serve stations which have 98 and 100. No problem if heading north or in town, pain in the arse if going south or inland.

So, if you draw a rough line between Queenstown and Dunedin what is there south of the line?

Only a select few NPD stations do 98/100 - Cromwelll, Frankton, Mossburn, Gore, Winton and Invers.

McKeown are much more widespread than NPD now, like Hyde and Owaka etc. Anyone know if they do 98, or any of the BP stations down south?

[Grumph]

McKeown seem to carry Caltex products so no 98 or 100.

BP's website is useless. You'd have to contact them to find out which sites carry 98.

[Berries]

BP's website is useless.
Which is why I am here.

As much as I hate using any petrol station where I have to wait for someone to get their coffee when I just want to pay for the petrol. Self service stations are a godsend.

[R650R]

What’s your compression ratio? 96 should be ok, two modern bikes in recent times and reckon both are better on 96 than 98.
Me and mate both had trouble with those NPD/mckeow type 24hr pumps they didn’t like our eftpis ir credit, maybe there’s a secret South Island code.
All modern bikes have knock sensors now and should auto adjust fuelling to suit occasion use of lesser fuel.
I’ve noticed newer Mobil/bp stations in smaller towns like Gisborne etc often only have 91 or 98 a conspiracy to make you buy the more expensive fuel.

[Berries]

What’s your compression ratio?
12:1 but while it is under warranty I will stick with the recommended fuel type.



Me and mate both had trouble with those NPD/mckeow type 24hr pumps they didn’t like our eftpis ir credit, maybe there’s a secret South Island code.
Yes, there is.

[neels]

The Gaspy phone app lets you set what type of fuel you are after (premium+ for 98 & 100), and gives you a map of where to find it with prices.

354755

[R650R]

12:1 but while it is under warranty I will stick with the recommended fuel type.



Yes, there is.

This is worthy of its own thread just been down a few rabbit holes on Google.
It seems compression ratio on its own is not the only factor in pre ignition knocking and that bore size and other factors come into it.

[Berries]

The Gaspy phone app
Thank you, that does the job. Not great coverage though so I hope the fuel gauge is accurate.

[Racing Dave]

Not great coverage though so I hope the fuel gauge is accurate.

In my experience, you can be very confidant (certain!) that it will not be accurate. I've never seen one that is. On my GSA, which I had BMW 'calibrate' the fuel gauge (twice!), the countdown to 'zero' km remaining concludes with the display showing three dashes (---). I have ridden a further 60km from there without the engine stopping. On my XL750, the first segment of the fuel gauge takes over 200km to vanish and then 50km for the next.

Manufacturers constantly blow their metaphorical horns when boasting of the multitude of electronic gizmos that their bikes have, but not one can make a fuel gauge read accurately.

In my previous life as an aircraft engineer, considerable time was spent calibrating aircraft fuel gauges, and pilots of same can have no doubt that when the gauge reaches '0', the engines will stop.

[Grumph]

In my previous life as an aircraft engineer, considerable time was spent calibrating aircraft fuel gauges, and pilots of same can have no doubt that when the gauge reaches '0', the engines will stop.

Most car fuel gauges show empty when there is still a reasonable reserve left.
This is to cater for the car-ignorant housewife who never looks at the gauges.

One well-known racer of my experience did the entire South Island National rounds with the gauge in his Sentra wagon showing empty all the way.
Asked if the gauge actually worked, he said, Yes, but I know it has a huge reserve.

He never did run out. But as the bike fuel he carried was 20% Nitro, I'd have liked to see the result if he did.

[SaferRides]

Which is why I am here.

As much as I hate using any petrol station where I have to wait for someone to get their coffee when I just want to pay for the petrol. Self service stations are a godsend.Just use the BP app to pay at the pump. You sometimes get extra discounts as well.

Having said that, I tend to avoid BP because of their ripoff pricing, but their coffee is half decent.

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

[Berries]

It does seem like BP has 98 at a lot of their stations so I will have to bite my tongue and not go off at people in front of me who are buying something other than petrol and fags which is all a petrol station should be allowed to sell.

/Long Friday night rant deleted/

I have been boycotting BP and Shell for years now so it will suck arse having to go in there again.

[Gremlin]

In my experience, you can be very confidant (certain!) that it will not be accurate. I've never seen one that is. On my GSA, which I had BMW 'calibrate' the fuel gauge (twice!), the countdown to 'zero' km remaining concludes with the display showing three dashes (---). I have ridden a further 60km from there without the engine stopping. On my XL750, the first segment of the fuel gauge takes over 200km to vanish and then 50km for the next.
On my R1200GSA, I've ridden down to 6km remaining, wasn't brave enough to go further. It's also run out with 17km remaining on the dash... that was a fun call on the side of the motorway (AA guy says, don't you have a fuel gauge, yeah, it said 17km then coughed and that was that). Mates then of course hassled me for running out of fuel on the supertanker of motorcycles... 750km with about a litre to spare was my record.

The other problem of course is that it calculates to empty, not reserve, so you have a tendency to cut it closer than you probably should. On my 1090R I did about 30km after it hit zero (no choice, middle of the countryside wishing I hadn't been yanking on the throttle before). I think I put 22.81L into a 23L tank, so I had a few km and then I was likely empty. Thank goodness Waipukurau wasn't further north! :laugh:

Don't get me started on manufacturers desire to keep reducing tank volume. If it can go further, cool, I want it!

[Racing Dave]

Don't get me started on manufacturers desire to keep reducing tank volume. If it can go further, cool, I want it!

I smile to myself when I see more modern bike's tank capacity described as 'huge'. Ever since the R1200GSA having an alleged 33 litres (what it really has, if you take all of five seconds to hook out the rubber 'thing' in the filler neck, is 38 litres. It doesn't need to have five litres of air above the fuel) all the more recent BMW models are down to 30 litres or less. Hopeless. I'll be most interested to see what the (proposed) R1300GSA has, but I'd bet that it won't be anything like 38 litres. I, too, can regularly travel over 700km on a tankful. Excellent for events like the TT2000, where time spent in the pits is average speed diminished.

[Gremlin]

Haven't modified my tank, and I can put something like 36-38L in.
Yep, I had a R1250GSA for a time, down to 30L, and so less range than the R1200GSA hex/cam.

Still, we're spoilt. When I had a Tuono hit reserve at 155km, that was the final straw and it was traded. I'm not even in the South Island!

[R650R]

It does seem like BP has 98 at a lot of their stations so I will have to bite my tongue and not go off at people in front of me who are buying something other than petrol and fags which is all a petrol station should be allowed to sell.

/Long Friday night rant deleted/

I have been boycotting BP and Shell for years now so it will suck arse having to go in there again.

Snap was doing same but in end practicallity….

The newer Mobils are good for 98 and have pay at pump

[rastuscat]

Had a GPz 550 H2 in 82. It had an LCD fuel gauge which didn't move for about 200 km, then plummeted from full to empty in the next 50 km.

I've not trusted fuel gauges since. On a 1200GSA these days, which apparently can travel to Mars on a tank, but I never ride past a gas station beyond my butt pain threshold.

[pete376403]

A fuel injected bike *should* be able to have an accurate gauge. The computer knows how much fuel is inected with each shot, and should be able to keep track of the total number of shots and so calculate the total amount of fuel used since last fill. This is the sort of thing that computers are good at.

[R650R]

A fuel injected bike *should* be able to have an accurate gauge. The computer knows how much fuel is inected with each shot, and should be able to keep track of the total number of shots and so calculate the total amount of fuel used since last fill. This is the sort of thing that computers are good at.

Well some do. IÂ’ve found ones with an avg and current km per litre function accurate on that part but tank level can be total witchcraft.
I think that comes down to the oddball tank shapes these days and many manufacturers leaving g space for emissions systems to capture fumes so the tank is never properly fill (or you issues with wet carbon canister).
IÂ’ve found heavy trucks to have quite accurate gauges along with some cars I think it comes down to a much larger tank vs the amount your journey consumes.

A little bit of quick maths, a four cylinder bike engine averaging 5000rpm over a one hour journey will go through 600,000 injector sequences. Now factor in all the micro adjustments happening in real time for atmospheric changes, gearing, speed, quick shifter, temperature and thereÂ’s plenty of room for error in measurement multiplied by 600,000.
Your injector might be open for anything from day 2.8 to 7 milliseconds each time. Fuel rail pressure may vary due to temp or voltage fluctuations so thereÂ’s a lot going on. And also your injectors are constantly suffering wear depending on fuel quality.I think the processing power to account for all those extras would be an expense manufacturers and consumers wouldnÂ’t pay for.
The only real way to get an accurate tank level would be to have a weight/pressure transducer in tank which would have to be baffled to hell and also tied up with a gyroscope/g force meter to cope with dynamics of moving bike.

[pete376403]

Well some do. IÂ’ve found ones with an avg and current km per litre function accurate on that part but tank level can be total witchcraft.

The only real way to get an accurate tank level would be to have a weight/pressure transducer in tank which would have to be baffled to hell and also tied up with a gyroscope/g force meter to cope with dynamics of moving bike.

Been done. Back in 2014 on ADVrider, Ranger Ron, who seems to know lots about electronics, made a pressure transducer system for a KLR. Quote "Since tanks are not symmetrical, I needed to get some data for the program to use. To do that, I filled the tank completely and recorded the sensor output voltage. Then I drained 1/10 gallon (12.8 oz) of gas at a time, recording the voltages until the tank was empty." and "It actually measures the pressure of the gas. One port of the sensor goes to the gas line, the other is open to the atmosphere. Here's the sensor I used: http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=9&y=13&lang=en&site=us&keywords=480-3090-5-ND" and "The program is written in C. The sensor output is applied to a 10 bit A/D convertor. The A/D results are processed via an exponential running average filter. 300 samples are taken at 20ms intervals. Next a mean average is taken of the middle 10% of the samples. This result is then displayed. I hope that made some sense." Used a PIC microcontroller and oled display

Following the photobucket meltdown the pictures are no longer available

[BMWST?]

it wasnt so long ago that we didnt have fuel gauges at all,just a reserve tap. It only takes a few rides to figure out what your actual range is. A mate always takes his new bike out until it stops,then throws some fuel in from a 5 l container he carrys for this particular mission

[pete376403]

it wasnt so long ago that we didnt have fuel gauges at all,just a reserve tap.
As manufacturers strive to make their bikes more unique, more electronics seems to be the easiest way. Once the bike has a computer and a display, feature creep takes over. Tyre pressure monitors are among the latest "must haves"

[SaferRides]

A fuel injected bike *should* be able to have an accurate gauge. The computer knows how much fuel is inected with each shot, and should be able to keep track of the total number of shots and so calculate the total amount of fuel used since last fill. This is the sort of thing that computers are good at.Most newer bikes can do this reasonably accurately. But you wouldn't want to rely on it!

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

[R650R]

Been done. Back in 2014 on ADVrider, Ranger Ron, who seems to know lots about electronics, made a pressure transducer system for a KLR. Quote "Since tanks are not symmetrical, I needed to get some data for the program to use. To do that, I filled the tank completely and recorded the sensor output voltage. Then I drained 1/10 gallon (12.8 oz) of gas at a time, recording the voltages until the tank was empty." and "It actually measures the pressure of the gas. One port of the sensor goes to the gas line, the other is open to the atmosphere. Here's the sensor I used: http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=9&y=13&lang=en&site=us&keywords=480-3090-5-ND" and "The program is written in C. The sensor output is applied to a 10 bit A/D convertor. The A/D results are processed via an exponential running average filter. 300 samples are taken at 20ms intervals. Next a mean average is taken of the middle 10% of the samples. This result is then displayed. I hope that made some sense." Used a PIC microcontroller and oled display

Following the photobucket meltdown the pictures are no longer available

Very clever

[neels]

Been done. Back in 2014 on ADVrider, Ranger Ron, who seems to know lots about electronics, made a pressure transducer system for a KLR. Quote "Since tanks are not symmetrical, I needed to get some data for the program to use. To do that, I filled the tank completely and recorded the sensor output voltage. Then I drained 1/10 gallon (12.8 oz) of gas at a time, recording the voltages until the tank was empty." and "It actually measures the pressure of the gas. One port of the sensor goes to the gas line, the other is open to the atmosphere. Here's the sensor I used: http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=9&y=13&lang=en&site=us&keywords=480-3090-5-ND" and "The program is written in C. The sensor output is applied to a 10 bit A/D convertor. The A/D results are processed via an exponential running average filter. 300 samples are taken at 20ms intervals. Next a mean average is taken of the middle 10% of the samples. This result is then displayed. I hope that made some sense." Used a PIC microcontroller and oled display

Following the photobucket meltdown the pictures are no longer available

Wouldn't a pressure transducer still be effectively measuring the height of the fuel, as in the head of pressure, above the sensor? Which isn't a lot different to using a float to measure the height of fuel in the tank, neither are measuring actual volume.

In theory the same process of calibration would work with a float type sender measuring fuel height vs volume of fuel added to the tank, with a correction applied to compensate for the irregular shape of the tank and display actual volume.

Anyway, my normal process is to run it until reserve (or the fuel light comes on) so I have an idea of 'normal' range, and leave whatever the reserve range is for emergencies

[Grumph]

The most elegant solution was I think originated by Ducati.

A strip down the side of a fiberglass tank with no coloured gelcoat. Thus transparent.

Fuel level at a glance.

[pete376403]

The most elegant solution was I think originated by Ducati.

A strip down the side of a fiberglass tank with no coloured gelcoat. Thus transparent.

Fuel level at a glance.

Are 'glass tanks till legal? I thought there was an issue with fuel additives not playing nicely with glass fibre

[Grumph]

Are 'glass tanks till legal? I thought there was an issue with fuel additives not playing nicely with glass fibre

AFAIK they've never been illegal here.

[R650R]

AFAIK they've never been illegal here.

It seems one of those things that there’s little info on officially. All I found direct to MC was alternative tank ok as long as the structure of the vehicle wasn’t modified for it to fit.

Also in car stuff below it mentions alternative materials ok as long as made by a recognised reputable manufacturer.

https://lvvta.org.nz/documents/consultation/2021/fuel-systems/2021_July_Chapter_10_Fuel_Systems_CCM_Final_Draft_ Ind_Consult.pdf

The only glass tank I’ve seen fail is when the owner launched it into the kitty litter coming off Manfield extension. I don’t think cartwheels were in the design criteria though.