New zealand refugee quota

[Kb2020dope]

Hi,

Some of my staff members are having difficulty in finding housing for themselves and their families. This is due to new zealand currently having a housing crisis. In 2020 the New Zealand labour party increased our refugee quota from 1000 to 1500. I'm all for helping out people who have no other options but ,if hard working, tax paying kiwis are failing to find accommodation we failing them.

I'm a bit frustrated with the fact Refugee's are entering our country, being gifted accommodation and a good percentage are not contributing to our society.


What are your views on this?

[jellywrestler]

What are your views on this?

what bikes do they ride?

[1/32 man]

I'm a bit frustrated with the fact Refugee's are entering our country, being gifted accommodation and a good percentage are not contributing to our society.


Call out the national guard, call out the border patrol, separate the children from their families and stick them in cages,......that is what trumpf did.

You have staff? sheesh, really truly?

[wetanz]

... part of the cloward piven strategy

[nerrrd]

You don't think the 173,000 new immigrants in 2023 might have something to do with it?

1500 is less than 1% of that.

The housing crisis is 30 years in the making, mostly due to the (understandable) growth in property investment during this time, which incentivises constant price increases in every aspect of the accommodation and building industries, funded by vast amounts of borrowing (check out the levels of private debt in NZ, it's quite sobering).

1500 refugees is a bacterium on the back of a flee on the back of a very large dog compared to our own (understandable) desire to make profits from the housing market.

[Kb2020dope]

what bikes do they ride?

I'm not sure. I just hope they contribute or get on their bikes!

[Kb2020dope]

Call out the national guard, call out the border patrol, separate the children from their families and stick them in cages,......that is what trumpf did.

You have staff? sheesh, really truly?

That was for illegal immigrants. Criminals. Criminals belong behind bars.

[Kb2020dope]

You don't think the 173,000 new immigrants in 2023 might have something to do with it?

1500 is less than 1% of that.

The housing crisis is 30 years in the making, mostly due to the (understandable) growth in property investment during this time, which incentivises constant price increases in every aspect of the accommodation and building industries, funded by vast amounts of borrowing (check out the levels of private debt in NZ, it's quite sobering).

1500 refugees is a bacterium on the back of a flee on the back of a very large dog compared to our own (understandable) desire to make profits from the housing market.

A large number of immigrants and skilled and are here to contribute. 1500 refugees per year are taking opportunities from 1500 kiwis per year.

Imagine if you were a refugee trying to flea new zealand. Most of these countries wouldn't even consider taking you in.

[nerrrd]

A large number of immigrants and skilled and are here to contribute. 1500 refugees per year are taking opportunities from 1500 kiwis per year.

Imagine if you were a refugee trying to flea new zealand. Most of these countries wouldn't even consider taking you in.

Can't speek to the mind set or intentions of refugeas, I have no direct experience with them. But if they're 'taking opportunities' from New Zealanders, doesn't that mean they are making a contribution (through those opportunities)?

Anyway, how do you define 'making a contribution'? There will be long term sickness beneficiaries, working families getting 'working for families' tax credits and accommodation supplements (due to the housing crisis), high worth individuals with similarly high powered accountants, all of whom probably pay no tax beyond GST. I suspect there are many more of those than non-contribution-making refugees in New Zealand

And I would challenge you to stand up in front of a group of actual refugees, hear their stories, look them (and their children) in the eyes and tell them they're not welcome here and should all go home. I couldn't do it.

[jellywrestler]

1500 refugees per year are taking opportunities from 1500 kiwis per year.

have you tried running a bakery and get new zealand staff to turn up reliably at 3 AM, or trying to get nz people to pick apples and grapes?

[Kb2020dope]

Can't speek to the mind set or intentions of refugeas, I have no direct experience with them. But if they're 'taking opportunities' from New Zealanders, doesn't that mean they are making a contribution (through those opportunities)?

Anyway, how do you define 'making a contribution'? There will be long term sickness beneficiaries, working families getting 'working for families' tax credits and accommodation supplements (due to the housing crisis), high worth individuals with similarly high powered accountants, all of whom probably pay no tax beyond GST. I suspect there are many more of those than non-contribution-making refugees in New Zealand

And I would challenge you to stand up in front of a group of actual refugees, hear their stories, look them (and their children) in the eyes and tell them they're not welcome here and should all go home. I couldn't do it.

Hey mate,

They are taking housing opportunities from new Zealanders.

That is a great point! The are plenty of bludger kiwis out there. I guess those bludger kiwis are unfortunately our problem. When others countries problems arrive here, the tax payers have no choice but to support them. I find this unfair. I think if you and I were refugees in 10 years time a lot of the countries we have supported would not take us in.

[Kb2020dope]

have you tried running a bakery and get new zealand staff to turn up reliably at 3 AM, or trying to get nz people to pick apples and grapes?

No, if I ran a bakery I would be 3 axe handles wide across the back. With great management you can turn any employee into a reliable staff member.

[wetanz]

have you tried running a bakery and get new zealand staff to turn up reliably at 3 AM, or trying to get nz people to pick apples and grapes?

... one of my cousins is a baker, been in business at least 30 yrs, employs 10 or so people, small northland town, competes with an asian bakery at the bottom of town ... both bakeries very popular
... his brother, butcher, competes successfully with new world and countdown - both jobs long hours, early starts - with local employees
... currently orange picking season around kerikeri, a few fijian pickers, mostly local

[Kb2020dope]

... one of my cousins is a baker, been in business at least 30 yrs, employs 10 or so people, small northland town, competes with an asian bakery at the bottom of town ... both bakeries very popular
... his brother, butcher, competes successfully with new world and countdown - both jobs long hours, early starts - with local employees
... currently orange picking season around kerikeri, a few fijian pickers, mostly local

This goes to show your cousin is a great manager. I imagine he has a good tight team of long-term staff that he looks after and in return they respect him and perform at a high level. It can be done.

[wetanz]

Call out the national guard, call out the border patrol, separate the children from their families and stick them in cages,......that is what trumpf did.

You have staff? sheesh, really truly?


AP FACT CHECK: Michelle Obama and the kids in ‘cages’

By CALVIN WOODWARD and HOPE YEN
Published 4:24 PM GMT+12, August 18, 2020

WASHINGTON (AP) — Michelle Obama assailed President Donald Trump on Monday for ripping migrant children from their parents and throwing them into cages, picking up on a frequent and distorted point made widely by Democrats.

She’s right that Trump’s now-suspended policy at the U.S.-Mexico border separated thousands of children from their families in ways that had not been done before. But what she did not say is that the very same “cages” were built and used in her husband’s administration, for the same purpose of holding migrant kids temporarily.

A look at her remark in the keynote address at the opening night of the remote Democratic National Convention:

MICHELLE OBAMA, on Americans: “They watch in horror as children are torn from their families and thrown into cages.”

THE FACTS: The reference to cages is misleading and a matter that Democrats have persistently distorted.

Trump used facilities that were built during the Obama-Biden administration to house children at the border. They are chain-link enclosures inside border facilities where migrants were temporarily housed, separated by sex and age.

At the height of the controversy over Trump’s zero-tolerance policy at the border, photos that circulated online of children in the enclosures generated great anger. But those photos — by The Associated Press — were taken in 2014 and depicted some of the thousands of unaccompanied children held by President Barack Obama.

When that fact came to light, some Democrats and activists who had tweeted the photos deleted their tweets. But prominent Democrats have continued to cite cages for children as a distinctive cruelty of Trump.

[Berries]

Trump used facilities that were built during the Obama-Biden administration to house children at the border. They are chain-link enclosures inside border facilities where migrants were temporarily housed, separated by sex and age.
Hmm.

cage
noun [ C ]
uk /keɪdʒ/ us /keɪdʒ/

a space surrounded on all sides by bars or wire, in which animals or birds are kept

[jellywrestler]

Hmm.

cage
noun [ C ]
uk /keɪdʒ/ us /keɪdʒ/

a space surrounded on all sides by bars or wire, in which animals or birds are kept

this is kiwibiker, it's also used as a reference to cars by the wannabe hipsters on here

[wetanz]

... nicholas

[jellywrestler]

With great management you can turn any employee into a reliable staff member.

Are you a charity worker or need to supply a product as efficiently as possible? Got a mate whose apprentice moved into a flat recently where they are in hospo, and have a big piss up every sunday night, mondays are very optional to him now, but he's often out to it and doesn't even let the boss know, what a cunt.

It seems the modern generation see turning up to work as being a flexible option, might work for some but a headache for others.

[Kb2020dope]

Are you a charity worker or need to supply a product as efficiently as possible? Got a mate whose apprentice moved into a flat recently where they are in hospo, and have a big piss up every sunday night, mondays are very optional to him now, but he's often out to it and doesn't even let the boss know, what a cunt.

It seems the modern generation see turning up to work as being a flexible option, might work for some but a headache for others.

In the trades. Typical hospo workers. I've had employees like that but managed to get them on the straight and narrow. It's all about working with this modern generation and gaining respect by working with them and showing them the level they should strive for.

[1/32 man]

managed
This is my second most despised word, the first being "management"


I've had employees like that but managed to get them on the straight and narrow. It's all about working with this modern generation and gaining respect by working with them and showing them the level they should strive for.

I bet they thank you for it later on.....I dont think.

People who think they know what is best for other people have a name dont they? Can't quite remember it at the moment though.

[Kb2020dope]

This is my second most despised word, the first being "management"



I bet they thank you for it later on.....I dont think.

People who think they know what is best for other people have a name dont they? Can't quite remember it at the moment though.

Being 1/32 of a man you potentially have something similar to short man syndrome. I take it you have been in roles where you have had superiors and don't get your own way hence your hate for management.

I have trained and managed plenty of people who have learnt discipline, customer service and great skills. They have gone on to be very successful and many have thanked me for helping them get their life sorted.

What I would like you to do is have a more positive attitude towards management and work. I believe you could go far.

[1/32 man]

I remain firmly opposed to people telling others what to do....so please yourself mate.

Just as a point for further discussion....how does a manager such as yourself deal with a response from someone who says, "get fucked" or 'go fuck yourself" or "fuck you"?
Is there a management strategy for that?

[Kb2020dope]

I remain firmly opposed to people telling others what to do....so please yourself mate.

Just as a point for further discussion....how does a manager such as yourself deal with a response from someone who says, "get fucked" or 'go fuck yourself" or "fuck you"?
Is there a management strategy for that?

Everyone has a role in a company. I don't see myself as above or better than my employees. I see myself as an organiser and leader. My employees have other roles which they are way more efficient at that I can be. Management is above discovering strong points and helping people grow.

I would consider that as a cry for help. I would have an off the record chat with them. If they didn't open up I would open up about some of my past struggles to make them feel comfortable.

Brother 1/32 man, you alright mate? Give us private message anytime if you need to chat.

Cheers

[1/32 man]

I would consider that as a cry for help. I would have an off the record chat with them. If they didn't open up I would open up about some of my past struggles to make them feel comfortable.

I had a bit of a chuckle.

That is a typical response from on high. I thought you might take a moment to reflect on what might be triggering the persons frustrations.....it might be you?

That DM that you mention would be a waste of both of our time.

Perhaps some papers on psychology would benefit a manager in the future.

Can you tell my attitude is coloured by experiences with shitty managers?

[jellywrestler]

Being 1/32 of a man you potentially have something similar to short man syndrome.

if that's the case then what does the inclusion of the word Dope in your name make you?

[Kickaha]

if that's the case then what does the inclusion of the word Dope in your name make you?

Accurately named?

[1/32 man]

Thanks Jelly wrestler and kickaha.

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser"....sorta like trump style.

[JimO]

Call out the national guard, call out the border patrol, separate the children from their families and stick them in cages,......that is what trumpf did.

You have staff? sheesh, really truly?
obama did that as well

[pritch]

Just as a point for further discussion....how does a manager such as yourself deal with a response from someone who says, "get fucked" or 'go fuck yourself" or "fuck you"?
Is there a management strategy for that?

I experienced something like that - twice. "Stick your job up your arse." The first time that happened it came out of the blue, I thought things could escalate rapidly so I walked away. Second time, same guy, a foremen no less, and he said it in front some of his staff. I told him I was on my way to check something in the yard, when I got back to the office I'd tell the pay clerk to make up his pay. If he changed his mind he should get to the office before me. He was there, and thereafter a changed man.

[R650R]

I experienced something like that - twice. "Stick your job up your arse." The first time that happened it came out of the blue, I thought things could escalate rapidly so I walked away. Second time, same guy, a foremen no less, and he said it in front some of his staff. I told him I was on my way to check something in the yard, when I got back to the office I'd tell the pay clerk to make up his pay. If he changed his mind he should get to the office before me. He was there, and thereafter a changed man.

At one large company we had a few disgruntled drivers from time to time. Dispatcher would lean over counter looking towards floor and ask if their legs were working ok. Second question was you do know how to find the exit gate, well problem solved.
The ones that do walk off the job and go somewhere else usually did it with little fanfare.

Back to topic original poster could consider hiring immigrants as apparently they’ll never have housing problems. And coming from some foreign dictatorship they’re probably unlikely to complain much or ask for pay rises to often…. Sometimes different perspectives might even bring new profitable ideas or better ways of doing things.

[Kb2020dope]

I had a bit of a chuckle.

That is a typical response from on high. I thought you might take a moment to reflect on what might be triggering the persons frustrations.....it might be you?

That DM that you mention would be a waste of both of our time.

Perhaps some papers on psychology would benefit a manager in the future.

Can you tell my attitude is coloured by experiences with shitty managers?

I don't have upset employees. I either put them on the right path or if they are broken goods with issues with authority I move them on.

I feel your issue with management may not be all your past managers. The issue here seems to be you. That is fine. Everyone is different, I think you just need to work for yourself or maybe look at a management role.

Keep me posted on how you go.

Cheers

[Kb2020dope]

if that's the case then what does the inclusion of the word Dope in your name make you?

Direct
Original
Powerful
Eagle-eyed

Would love to know the story behind the name jellywrestler.

[jellywrestler]

Direct
Original
Powerful
Eagle-eyed

Would love to know the story behind the name jellywrestler.

I'm sure when you reach 18 your mummy or daddy, or maybe fraternity buddies will tell you or even take you to an event, meanwhile you just enjoy your jelly with some lovely icecream innocent in the fact that there could have been a couple of menstruating dirty bitches writhing in a tub full of it prior to it being dished up to you....
That is of course if they let you have jelly at Gloriavale?

[1/32 man]

I admire people with mental clarity and acuity.
Mine is sure in decline but I often fall back on that old quote which goes something like....

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts"

[neels]

With great management you can turn any employee into a reliable staff member.


I've had employees like that but managed to get them on the straight and narrow. It's all about working with this modern generation and gaining respect by working with them and showing them the level they should strive for.


I don't have upset employees. I either put them on the right path or if they are broken goods with issues with authority I move them on.

If you're going to post a load of bollocks, at least try to remember the previous bollocks you've posted, so you don't contradict yourself.

[Kb2020dope]

I'm sure when you reach 18 your mummy or daddy, or maybe fraternity buddies will tell you or even take you to an event, meanwhile you just enjoy your jelly with some lovely icecream innocent in the fact that there could have been a couple of menstruating dirty bitches writhing in a tub full of it prior to it being dished up to you....
That is of course if they let you have jelly at Gloriavale?

Hey bud,

Sorry I'm not really familiar with this sport.
So you are a jelly wrestler?
Do you wrestle in the male league? Or are you a woman? Or is there a gender diverse league?

Would love to know more about your sport pal.

Thanks

[Kb2020dope]

I admire people with mental clarity and acuity.
Mine is sure in decline but I often fall back on that old quote which goes something like....

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts"

That sounds like a quote made by someone that couldn't handle being told what to do.

Here's my quote

"There are two types of people in this world. Those who can manage and those that wish they could manage."

Kb2020dope - 2024

[Kb2020dope]

If you're going to post a load of bollocks, at least try to remember the previous bollocks you've posted, so you don't contradict yourself.

Hey brother neels,

Great observation, very impressive.

Look I'll have to admit, in my time I've had one difficult team member that I couldn't get in line. Luckily I told him to have a crack, he did. I fired him for punching me. I won that fight using my biggest muscle ( my brain).

I do look back at this incident as a fail on my part. Since then I have strived to be better.

Cheers

[neels]

Look I'll have to admit, in my time I've had one difficult team member that I couldn't get in line. Luckily I told him to have a crack, he did. I fired him for punching me. I won that fight using my biggest muscle ( my brain).

Can't help thinking you might have deserved it.

You must have got your pronouns mixed up then, I took 'them' as meaning more than one.

[Kb2020dope]

Can't help thinking you might have deserved it.

You must have got your pronouns mixed up then, I took 'them' as meaning more than one.

Neels, I would like you to get to know me before you judge me. Why do you think I would deserve a punch?

This particular ex employee had multiple personalities so they/them/shim/her /him are appropriate.

[Kb2020dope]

This is great!

https://youtu.be/1CXMwu530Gg?si=wL2M8UgLCbpZ2WP4

[jellywrestler]

I won that fight using my biggest muscle ( my brain).



figured your biggest muscle wouldn't be your womb broom

[Kb2020dope]

figured your biggest muscle wouldn't be your womb broom

Correct!

I believe that was an attempt at an insult . If you had the mass of the largest "womb broom" ever recorded it would be lucky to be 1/4 of the size of an average brain.

I have heard the rumours jelly wrestler.
Apparently it's not fat that makes you tip the scales. It's that fact you are so intelligent your brains seem to leak down into your stomach.

It's refreshing to have a nice Intelligent debate with a legend such as yourself.

[1/32 man]

That sounds like a quote made by someone that couldn't handle being told what to do.


I think the debate is over, Kb2020dope.
I have read your replies on that other thread and you are in the deep stuff now. Who is accepting your argument? your point of view?

Remember my previous quote, "the fool and fanatic are so sure of themselves while the wise continue to question"?????

That is how you come across.....the fanatic.

I pity the poor souls that have to work under you.

I remember I once worked in a place where there were two thousand good men under me......I was a grave digger and none of those poor bastards answered me back either.

[R650R]

Lost an interesting link but in a nutshell….
Refugees are heading to capitalist western nations in greater numbers than ever before. They are fleeing mostly socialist dictatorships in most instances.
Meanwhile some in the west think we should adopt the political systems of these other countries.
Feel free to add any capitalist/right wing nations where people are fleeing from.

[pete376403]

Lost an interesting link but in a nutshell….
Refugees are heading to capitalist western nations in greater numbers than ever before. They are fleeing mostly socialist dictatorships in most instances.
Meanwhile some in the west think we should adopt the political systems of these other countries.
Feel free to add any capitalist/right wing nations where people are fleeing from.

Maybe the dictatorships they are fleeing are not socialist, regardless of how they are named. from North Korea and down, there is little that is "socialist" about how the countries are run at the whim of one person.

[TheDemonLord]

Maybe the dictatorships they are fleeing are not socialist, regardless of how they are named. from North Korea and down, there is little that is "socialist" about how the countries are run at the whim of one person.

And yet, every attempt at Socialism always ends up that way...

Curious that there is a perfect correlation (some might say even Causation) - and yet it is never Socialisms fault...

Curious, indeed.

[pete376403]

And yet, every attempt at Socialism always ends up that way...

Curious that there is a perfect correlation (some might say even Causation) - and yet it is never Socialisms fault...

Curious, indeed.

And that bastion of freedom, USA, looks like its heading exactly the same way, just a tossup if the one person is trump or musk

[TheDemonLord]

And that bastion of freedom, USA, looks like its heading exactly the same way, just a tossup if the one person is trump or musk

The idea that Musk or Trump will become dictators is (ironically) propagated by the same time of Middle Class university educated idiot who has never experienced Socialism but thinks it will solve all of their problems (AKA Journalists).

[pete376403]

The idea that Musk or Trump will become dictators is (ironically) propagated by the same time of Middle Class university educated idiot who has never experienced Socialism but thinks it will solve all of their problems (AKA Journalists).

Well we will just have to wait and see. However, given that, which ever one rises to the top of the pile, he will have the supreme court (thus the entire judiciary), the senate and the congress in his pocket. Then the multi billionaires, wishing keep what they have, will all follow along. The military of course answers to the Commander-in Chief. If that doesn't make for dictator-like power, obviously we have different definitions of the term.

[TheDemonLord]

Well we will just have to wait and see. However, given that, which ever one rises to the top of the pile, he will have the supreme court (thus the entire judiciary), the senate and the congress in his pocket. Then the multi billionaires, wishing keep what they have, will all follow along. The military of course answers to the Commander-in Chief. If that doesn't make for dictator-like power, obviously we have different definitions of the term.

Dictator-like power (voted in democratically).

Not a Dictatorship.

Bit of the ol' bait and switch going on.

[pete376403]

Dictator-like power (voted in democratically).

Not a Dictatorship.

Bit of the ol' bait and switch going on.


Less important how he gets there, more important what happens after he gets there


Stalin was elected, (According to Russian historian, Vadim Rogovin, Stalin's election to the position occurred after the Eleventh Party Congress (March–April 1922), Mussolini was elected, ( Mussolini's National List (an alliance of Catholic, liberal, and conservative political parties) used intimidation tactics against voters,[2] resulting in a landslide victory and a subsequent two-thirds majority) Hltler was elected. (The Nazi Party had risen very rapidly, from being a fringe group for much of the 1920s to becoming the second-largest party in the Reichstag in 1930. Led by Hitler, who exercised sole control over its policy and direction)

So elected into positions of dictatorship - may have started democratically but look at the end result

[R650R]

Less important how he gets there, more important what happens after he gets there



So elected into positions of dictatorship - may have started democratically but look at the end result

Well they ended up with decent roads and became an engineering and eco ionic powerhouse of the world despite losing war. And now they are falling apart under current leadership or lack of….

Democracy is just dictatorship in three year bite size pieces.

[TheDemonLord]

Less important how he gets there, more important what happens after he gets there

Stalin was elected, (According to Russian historian, Vadim Rogovin, Stalin's election to the position occurred after the Eleventh Party Congress (March–April 1922)

The fact you included this really does render your point moot.

I would have granted you Hitlers rise to power (to some degree), although I would have asked you to point to the equivalent of the Reichstag fire....

Again - the people who believe in a Political system that always ends up in a totalitarian, blood-thirsty dictatorship - are complaining about Trump becoming a Dictator.

Whereas the people that have fled those totalitarian, blood-thirsty dictatorships overwhelming support Trump as a paragon of freedom.

The irony is hilarious.

To your point specifically - Trump is hopefully going to take a sledgehammer to various elements, groups, sub-factions etc. within the US political system (similar to Jarvier Milei) - people are going to call that Dictatorial... But removing power from unelected beaurocrats and returning it the State and the People is the very antithesis of Dictatorship.

[Berries]

Lost an interesting link but in a nutshell….
Refugees are heading to capitalist western nations in greater numbers than ever before. They are fleeing mostly socialist dictatorships in most instances.
Meanwhile some in the west think we should adopt the political systems of these other countries.
Feel free to add any capitalist/right wing nations where people are fleeing from.

This one?

US searches for moving to NZ rise 2000% (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/us-searches-moving-nz-rise-2000)

[TheDemonLord]

This one?

US searches for moving to NZ rise 2000% (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/us-searches-moving-nz-rise-2000)

And how many *actually* move.

I know of one person who did move in 2017. Primarily for health related issues, but also because they hate Trump.

That is about it.

[Berries]

And how many *actually* move.
The numbers were going up then this news dropped on Reddit. Perhaps more impact than the orange one?

[R650R]

This one?

US searches for moving to NZ rise 2000% (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/us-searches-moving-nz-rise-2000)

Given that most Americans don’t know nz exists that could just be 5 fans of 4 low grade celebrities looking it up compared to one initial person 20/1.

Leaving because you don’t like someone is not fleeing, it’s moving on. No one in America is in danger from trump running the place. Any real USA refugees would only need to walk across the border to Canada for a completely different lifestyle and political system.

[Berries]

Given that most Americans don’t know nz exists that could just be 5 fans of 4 low grade celebrities looking it up compared to one initial person 20/1.
I posted it as a piss take but if you look at the link it says there were 25,000 people looking it up in one day.

They can't all be fans of Cliff Curtis.

[pritch]

. They are fleeing mostly socialist dictatorships in most instances.


You must have a different definition of socialist to my dictionary. Most seem to be fleeing Muslim countries which are not socialist. Others are fleeing African countries run by African forms of government most of which are loosely based on those of their former colonial occupiers.

[TheDemonLord]

You must have a different definition of socialist to my dictionary. Most seem to be fleeing Muslim countries which are not socialist.

Errrrr Arab Socialism is *definitely* a thing

- Iraq (Saddamn Hussein)
- Syria (Assad)
- Egypt (Mubarak)

I could go on.


Others are fleeing African countries run by African forms of government most of which are loosely based on those of their former colonial occupiers.

And African Socialism is *also* a definite thing.

Best example would be South Africa and the ANC.

But other examples include the Congo, Zimbabwe, Rwanda.

[pritch]

Errrrr Arab Socialism is *definitely* a thing

- Iraq (Saddamn Hussein)
- Syria (Assad)
- Egypt (Mubarak)

I could go on.



And African Socialism is *also* a definite thing.

Best example would be South Africa and the ANC.

But other examples include the Congo, Zimbabwe, Rwanda.

Those Arab counties would only be considered socialist by someone who sees socialists under their bed. Oh wait!

Also to the best of my knowledge the many people crossing the Med to get to Europe from Africa come from further north than the African countries you mention, so whatever colour their politics may be they are irrelevant.

[BMWST?]

Dictator-like power (voted in democratically).

Not a Dictatorship.

Bit of the ol' bait and switch going on.

The US is not a democracy. It is a Republic. The electoral college means it is not 1 man 1 Vote

[pete376403]

The US is not a democracy. It is a Republic. The electoral college means it is not 1 man 1 Vote

A thought about that. If the presidential candidate selects a person to be vice presidential candidate before the election, then, if following the election, the president dies (eg like lincoln, kennedy and hopefully drumpf), when the VP takes over the role, does that mean the US ends up with an unelected president?

[TheDemonLord]

Those Arab counties would only be considered socialist by someone who sees socialists under their bed. Oh wait!

Except they described themselves as Arab Socialists.

Look up the Ba'ath party.

This is not what I see them as.



Also to the best of my knowledge the many people crossing the Med to get to Europe from Africa come from further north than the African countries you mention, so whatever colour their politics may be they are irrelevant.

Like Libya? Which was socialist under Gaddafi?
Or Algeria?

[pete376403]

Except they described themselves as Arab Socialists.

Look up the Ba'ath party.

This is not what I see them as.


Like Libya? Which was socialist under Gaddafi?
Or Algeria?

Although he had his moments Libya under gaddafi wasn''t all that bad eg Gaddafi's regime opened up a wide range of educational and employment opportunities for women, although these primarily benefited a minority in the urban middle-classes. From 1969 to 1973, it used oil money to fund social welfare programs, which led to housebuilding projects and improved healthcare and education. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi#:~:text=Gaddafi's%20regime%20opene d%20up%20a,and%20improved%20healthcare%20and%20edu cation.) Then the "west" supported the overthrow leading to the carnage of today. Similarly Iran was performing pretty ok until the US destabilised the government, reinstating the shah with all his excesses and leading to the religious fundies taking over. Seems all the countries that are so fucked up that people want to flee are, mainly, ones that european nations, especially britain, colonised and plundered, then pulled out leaving a power vacuum to be exploited.

[R650R]

Although he had his moments Libya under gaddafi wasn''t all that bad eg Gaddafi's regime opened up a wide range of educational and employment opportunities for women, although these primarily benefited a minority in the urban middle-classes. From 1969 to 1973, it used oil money to fund social welfare programs, which led to housebuilding projects and improved healthcare and education. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi#:~:text=Gaddafi's%20regime%20opene d%20up%20a,and%20improved%20healthcare%20and%20edu cation.) Then the "west" supported the overthrow leading to the carnage of today. Similarly Iran was performing pretty ok until the US destabilised the government, reinstating the shah with all his excesses and leading to the religious fundies taking over. Seems all the countries that are so fucked up that people want to flee are, mainly, ones that european nations, especially britain, colonised and plundered, then pulled out leaving a power vacuum to be exploited.

Yep if you want to know the real reason the west took him out, check out the massive water project he was working on. There was a pipeline being built to use a huge aquifer to make Libya the bread basket of Middle East and he had a plan for an Arab gold backed currency.
As you can understand having an independent nation in that part of world with its own water, food, finance and energy security would upset certain foriegn policy objectives…,
About 20 years ago local library had a copy of his book in English the “green book”. He detailed his plans for the future perhaps a little too well.
As well as bring ahead of the BRICS game he also smoked the left on the defund the police game.
He envisioned what we would call vigilante justice where the community would instantly take care of a thief in local markets negating need for costly police and justice systems.
It’s well worth a read if you can find a copy that hasn’t been burnt..,,

[Berries]

Seems all the countries that are so fucked up that people want to flee are, mainly, ones that european nations, especially britain, colonised and plundered, then pulled out leaving a power vacuum to be exploited.
Yes, there is a lot to be said for the Empire. Perhaps Team GB should go back to the old ways to save the world from itself.

Would resolve all this treaty bullshit quick smart.

[TheDemonLord]

Although he had his moments Libya under gaddafi wasn''t all that bad eg Gaddafi's regime opened up a wide range of educational and employment opportunities for women, although these primarily benefited a minority in the urban middle-classes. From 1969 to 1973, it used oil money to fund social welfare programs, which led to housebuilding projects and improved healthcare and education. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi#:~:text=Gaddafi's%20regime%20opene d%20up%20a,and%20improved%20healthcare%20and%20edu cation.) Then the "west" supported the overthrow leading to the carnage of today. Similarly Iran was performing pretty ok until the US destabilised the government, reinstating the shah with all his excesses and leading to the religious fundies taking over. Seems all the countries that are so fucked up that people want to flee are, mainly, ones that european nations, especially britain, colonised and plundered, then pulled out leaving a power vacuum to be exploited.

Had his Moments - I mean, the good people of Lockerbie would say it was more than just his moments...

But sure - he was a complex individual and there is much to be said about American interference...

However - my point remains - Libya under Gaddafi was ostensibly a Socialist State and after 1973 (4 years after the revolution, presumably when all the money ran out - like it always does with Socialism) the Economic reforms nose-dived.

Arab Socialism, Islamic Socialism and African Socialism has its fingerprints over a good number of countries, it is not a mere flight of my fancy, this is their self-declared political position.

The last part though - this is the common Left-Wing trope, it is economically illiterate (if the Left understood economics, they wouldnt be on the left...) and historically illiterate.

Yes, Britain colonised - and the places (America, Canada, Australia, NZ) where the British way of doing things has persisted, those countries are prosperous.

The ones where certain British ideals were rejected (pretty much every where else) suffered the consequences of rejecting them.

[TheDemonLord]

Yes, there is a lot to be said for the Empire. Perhaps Team GB should go back to the old ways to save the world from itself.

Would resolve all this treaty bullshit quick smart.

Well, not the current Team GB - Keir Starmer is a disgrace. And the Tories arent much better.

[Jantar]

A thought about that. If the presidential candidate selects a person to be vice presidential candidate before the election, then, if following the election, the president dies (eg like lincoln, kennedy and hopefully drumpf), when the VP takes over the role, does that mean the US ends up with an unelected president?
Yes, that is exactly what happens.

[R650R]

Yes, there is a lot to be said for the Empire. Perhaps Team GB should go back to the old ways to save the world from itself..

Isn’t colonialism just refugeeism on steroids???? A whole lot of people coming from somewhere else and saying hey we want you to incorporate our ideals into your society???

Anyhow we should just consider ourselves fortunate that we weren’t colonised by the French, Chinese or Spanish instead, things would have been very different….

Incidentally the Russians were here in pre treaty times and traded with Maori successfully. If you’re suffering a rare ferry delay in Picton the small museum has some great info on this. It seems the Russians of time weren’t interested in new outposts just doing trade and learning from others. Oh and they have a whale harpoon cannon and scale model diorama of whale being speared. Go see it before it’s banned lol

[F5 Dave]

I can't read most of the contributors causing the backlash. Unless quoted.

But I would suggest that they learn some ficking history.

Also, learn what Socialism and Communism are. Spoiler, always ends up as Totalitarian Hell for common people.

Communism is a failed Social experiment, Kippered by human Greed and Ego.

BTW, Capitalism can produce exactly the same results allowed to be taken to the same extreme.

That's why we need a balanced approach.

And yes, only four beers in, the most intelligent post on KB thus far.

Don't worry, I'll be back in another four to negate that brilliance.

Actually, no I'll unsubscribe. Some real dingle danglers are posting here, even if they are already on ignore, they will continue to double down with rubbish.

[Berries]

Well, not the current Team GB - Keir Starmer is a disgrace. And the Tories arent much better.
Was thinking of petitioning for the reinstatement of the East India Company.

Have just read Nathaniel's Nutmeg. A pretty good treatise on how to deal with johnny foreigner. Pretty sure you would find it interesting.

[nerrrd]

Hmmm, I'm not sure if you can re-pillage countries you've already pillaged, sorry 'colonised'.

Seems to me that Western civilisation as it stands was built on vast amounts of resources 'discovered' off shore and repatriated back to Europe, making Europe rich enough to start dabbling in more esoteric concerns like human rights etc.

All the money from that ran out quite a while ago though, hence why most of those countries are surviving now on vast amounts of debt, all of which seems to be based on some kind of foreign exchange pyramid scheme, as in if everyone was suddenly forced to stop borrowing and pay everything back, the whole thing would collapse.

Nowadays the big money is on the internet, perhaps someone could try colonising that for a change? Forget Greenland, annex Facebook instead. Maybe then we'll just get lots of digital refugees.

[TheDemonLord]

Hmmm, I'm not sure if you can re-pillage countries you've already pillaged, sorry 'colonised'.

Seems to me that Western civilisation as it stands was built on vast amounts of resources 'discovered' off shore and repatriated back to Europe, making Europe rich enough to start dabbling in more esoteric concerns like human rights etc.

All the money from that ran out quite a while ago though, hence why most of those countries are surviving now on vast amounts of debt, all of which seems to be based on some kind of foreign exchange pyramid scheme, as in if everyone was suddenly forced to stop borrowing and pay everything back, the whole thing would collapse.

Nowadays the big money is on the internet, perhaps someone could try colonising that for a change? Forget Greenland, annex Facebook instead. Maybe then we'll just get lots of digital refugees.

I, personally, cannot stand this narrative that europe only became Rich by resource extraction. It has its roots in (you guessed it) Marxist critique (which posits a zero-sum game, so if Group A succeeds, it must be because they stole success from Group B).

[R650R]

Hmmm, I'm not sure if you can re-pillage countries you've already pillaged, sorry 'colonised'.

Seems to me that Western civilisation as it stands was built on vast amounts of resources 'discovered' off shore and repatriated back to Europe, making Europe rich enough to start dabbling in more esoteric concerns like human rights etc.

All the money from that ran out quite a while ago though, hence why most of those countries are surviving now on vast amounts of debt, all of which seems to be based on some kind of foreign exchange pyramid scheme, as in if everyone was suddenly forced to stop borrowing and pay everything back, the whole thing would collapse.

Nowadays the big money is on the internet, perhaps someone could try colonising that for a change? Forget Greenland, annex Facebook instead. Maybe then we'll just get lots of digital refugees.

Perhaps we could rewind human progress back 600 years or so and everyone will be happy. Your sole existance would be based on finding food to survive rest of day, dodging predators and hoping the hungry tribe across river finds food before they figure out how to cross.

Many people on this site let alone the nation benefit massively from the improvements in lifespan, living standards and medical care that has resulted from “ capitalist” investment in success.Every generation has lived better than previous thanks to all this.
Just look at rescue helicopters in NZ. First we just had one then as our economy grew it’s now a 100% coverage. Yes it’s funded mostly by donation but all that capital has come from economic progress by companies and private individuals.
And now with fast internet and various apps you can now privately invest in the big mega corporations and have a slice of the pie. You mention Facebook, most of us don’t like it but it’s enormously successful, it keeps 82% of all revenue as profit.
For those of you retired or about to retire guess how your supe/kiwisaver is funded. It’s from investing in all these companies.

[nerrrd]

I, personally, cannot stand this narrative that europe only became Rich by resource extraction. It has its roots in (you guessed it) Marxist critique (which posits a zero-sum game, so if Group A succeeds, it must be because they stole success from Group B).

Not judging, that's how it was done back in the day, and it's been a net benefit for me, so "go team pillage!" But I don't have any issue with calling it what it was at the time.

[nerrrd]

Perhaps we could rewind human progress back 600 years or so and everyone will be happy. Your sole existance would be based on finding food to survive rest of day, dodging predators and hoping the hungry tribe across river finds food before they figure out how to cross.

Many people on this site let alone the nation benefit massively from the improvements in lifespan, living standards and medical care that has resulted from “ capitalist” investment in success.Every generation has lived better than previous thanks to all this.
Just look at rescue helicopters in NZ. First we just had one then as our economy grew it’s now a 100% coverage. Yes it’s funded mostly by donation but all that capital has come from economic progress by companies and private individuals.
And now with fast internet and various apps you can now privately invest in the big mega corporations and have a slice of the pie. You mention Facebook, most of us don’t like it but it’s enormously successful, it keeps 82% of all revenue as profit.
For those of you retired or about to retire guess how your supe/kiwisaver is funded. It’s from investing in all these companies.

Again, don't want to go back to that, I'd be dead (lifelong myopia), the world we have now is pretty great for me. But I'd like someone to explain to me how it's going to continue when the vast majority of people are getting deeper and deeper in debt.

[TheDemonLord]

Not judging, that's how it was done back in the day, and it's been a net benefit for me, so "go team pillage!" But I don't have any issue with calling it what it was at the time.

Okay - hear me out for a second - if the goal was *solely* Go Team Pillage - why bother setting up schools - I mean, sure in parts of Australia they did go the exterminate the locals route - but by and large, everywhere the British went, they sought to setup functioning (by Western definitions) societies.

They ended various barbaric tribal practices - sometimes at great financial cost - something that again if the narrative was accurate, then they wouldnt bother.

A more accurate version of events would be that the British helped setup far more efficient industries and running things at scale and yes, some of the profits did go back to the UK...

But that is half the story - consider all the manufacturing that was done in the UK and then purchased and sent overseas - that was not Go Team Pillage - yes, UK industry benefitted greatly from the extra business...

But so did the local economies from having state-of-the-art equipment to help them be more productive

Or to put it another way:

Is Japan currently pillaging New Zealand by being the biggest supplier of Cars?

[Berries]

They ended various barbaric tribal practices.
To be fair they started a few as well.


A more accurate version of events would be that the British helped setup far more efficient industries and running things at scale and yes, some of the profits did go back to the UK...
Would shipping slaves across the Atlantic be a good example of that?

[TheDemonLord]

To be fair they started a few as well.


Would shipping slaves across the Atlantic be a good example of that?

Stopping the practice of slavery would be an even better example.

And here is your timely reminder that every culture and civilization on earth practiced a form of Slavery, until the British said that this was not cool.

Although it is sad to see with the decline of the British Empire the practice has resumed in certain parts of the world (but we wont talk about the cultural and religious practices that allow it...)

[nerrrd]

Okay - hear me out for a second - if the goal was *solely* Go Team Pillage - why bother setting up schools - I mean, sure in parts of Australia they did go the exterminate the locals route - but by and large, everywhere the British went, they sought to setup functioning (by Western definitions) societies.

They ended various barbaric tribal practices - sometimes at great financial cost - something that again if the narrative was accurate, then they wouldnt bother.

A more accurate version of events would be that the British helped setup far more efficient industries and running things at scale and yes, some of the profits did go back to the UK...

But that is half the story - consider all the manufacturing that was done in the UK and then purchased and sent overseas - that was not Go Team Pillage - yes, UK industry benefitted greatly from the extra business...

But so did the local economies from having state-of-the-art equipment to help them be more productive

Or to put it another way:

Is Japan currently pillaging New Zealand by being the biggest supplier of Cars?

I would say that the basic reason that most Europeans came to NZ back in the day was to access as yet untapped economic resources (you might even call them economic refugees). The reason I'd use the word 'pillage' is that some were able to corner those resources here for a fraction of what they would have been worth back home, and turn them into profitable export industries, which might have been a bit unfair for the locals, particularly in hindsight. It also took an awful lot of courage and hard work, which are both things that your average refugee understands.

Once those resources are gone (I hesitate to use the word 'owned' as that's probably some kind of Marxist red flag), you've got to start adding value to what you've already got, which is fine I guess, and what we've been trying to do over the last 50 years or so, but it seems to be less and less successful at sustaining the overall economy, hence we're now forced to prop up pretty much everything with loads of debt.

I'd be very grateful if someone could figure out a way of fixing that.

[mashman]

Once those resources are gone (I hesitate to use the word 'owned' as that's probably some kind of Marxist red flag), you've got to start adding value to what you've already got, which is fine I guess, and what we've been trying to do over the last 50 years or so, but it seems to be less and less successful at sustaining the overall economy, hence we're now forced to prop up pretty much everything with loads of debt.

I'd be very grateful if someone could figure out a way of fixing that.

I know how to fix it... but you're unlikely to like it. That the fix would do the trick is irrelevant :)

[BMWST?]

A thought about that. If the presidential candidate selects a person to be vice presidential candidate before the election, then, if following the election, the president dies (eg like lincoln, kennedy and hopefully drumpf), when the VP takes over the role, does that mean the US ends up with an unelected president?
thats got nothhing to do with the diussion here.Its no less "democratic" than what has happened here when a prime ministers is rolled or say in the Uk who had Many prime ministers in one term

[BMWST?]

I would say that the basic reason that most Europeans came to NZ back in the day was to access as yet untapped economic resources (you might even call them economic refugees). The reason I'd use the word 'pillage' is that some were able to corner those resources here for a fraction of what they would have been worth back home, and turn them into profitable export industries, which might have been a bit unfair for the locals, particularly in hindsight. It also took an awful lot of courage and hard work, which are both things that your average refugee understands.

Once those resources are gone (I hesitate to use the word 'owned' as that's probably some kind of Marxist red flag), you've got to start adding value to what you've already got, which is fine I guess, and what we've been trying to do over the last 50 years or so, but it seems to be less and less successful at sustaining the overall economy, hence we're now forced to prop up pretty much everything with loads of debt.

I'd be very grateful if someone could figure out a way of fixing that.

And the plebians came for the same reason. They figured it would be better than back home. My own Mother came back with my father in 1945 quite young. They and her parents figured a life in NZ would be better than a war torn UK

[Katman]

But I'd like someone to explain to me how it's going to continue when the vast majority of people are getting deeper and deeper in debt.

That's all part of their plan.

[R650R]

Again, don't want to go back to that, I'd be dead (lifelong myopia), the world we have now is pretty great for me. But I'd like someone to explain to me how it's going to continue when the vast majority of people are getting deeper and deeper in debt.

Debt is a tool to improve your standard of living on a personal level and community level. Most of us take out a mortgage to buy a house as we believe in our ability to pay it back. But we need a house now not at the end of the 25 year period it would take to save purchase price.

Yes some people are badly in debt/poor choices/misused, but that’s just an education issue that’s slowly being fixed.

Debt is a belief in the future value of yourself and your community. The real issue is too many people use debt to buy things that are not assets with the worst probably being motor vehicles of all types. Again a societal educational issue rather than the tool of itself.

[pete376403]

But so did the local economies from having state-of-the-art equipment to help them be more productive

Jamaican sugar plantation slaves, for example. Cecil Rhodes exploitation of the black africans in the De Beers diamond mines would be another

[pete376403]

thats got nothhing to do with the diussion here.Its no less "democratic" than what has happened here when a prime ministers is rolled or say in the Uk who had Many prime ministers in one term
Yeah it should have been in the trump thread, not sure how it ended up here.

[F5 Dave]

Straight from wiki. How British colonialism help those savages get ahead

". . . India experienced deindustrialisation and cessation of various craft industries under British rule,[12] which along with fast economic and population growth in the Western world, resulted in India's share of the world economy declining from 24.4% in 1700 to 4.2% in 1950. . . "

[R650R]

A bit of comedy and some cold hard facts about colonialism and its effects. For some unknown reason the series visits only four countries and we didn’t make the cut. Guess we’re just part of Australian now with so many people fleeing there, sorry relocating.

No wonder they stomach working in 40deg with creepy crawlies and crocs everywhere when you hear what conditions were like in prison and voyage over here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKsirsvC4eQ

[Berries]

For some unknown reason the series visits only four countries and we didn’t make the cut.
A few muskets being shot doesn't really put little old NZ on the map when it comes to some of the atrocities committed around the globe in the name of Empire.

[Katman]

A few muskets being shot doesn't really put little old NZ on the map when it comes to some of the atrocities committed around the globe in the name of Empire.

For the first 40 years of the 19th century the almost exclusive use of muskets in New Zealand was Maori shooting Maori.

[TheDemonLord]

Straight from wiki. How British colonialism help those savages get ahead

". . . India experienced deindustrialisation and cessation of various craft industries under British rule,[12] which along with fast economic and population growth in the Western world, resulted in India's share of the world economy declining from 24.4% in 1700 to 4.2% in 1950. . . "



Did Indias share of the world economy decline because the Indian Economy shrunk...

Or did it decline because others (such as Post WW2 USA) absolutely sky-rocketed in that time period.

Even if you look at per-capita GDP, you have to factor in that the population was steadily rising. Then when the 1900s hit (and modern medicine was introduced) - it really increased.

Deindustrialization of India is a complex subject, I personally consider it to be more historical revisionism than anything else. The key fact is that India had Industry, but not Industrial industry.

When Britain created textile machines, this basically made hand-made clothing items uncompetitive - which was a major source of export and trade.

A lot of the research in this topic is from Indian Scholars - who tend to adopt the idea that if it wasnt for the British Empire, India would be a perfect Utopia.

It also ignores the amount of Investment that Britain put into India to have a rail network and setting up heavy industry. Some of which still exists today.

[TheDemonLord]

Jamaican sugar plantation slaves, for example. Cecil Rhodes exploitation of the black africans in the De Beers diamond mines would be another

King Ghezo, of Benin:


The slave trade is the ruling principle of my people. It is the source and the glory of their wealth…the mother lulls the child to sleep with notes of triumph over an enemy reduced to slavery

Remember kids, Africa had a well developed and established Slave Trade before the Europeans showed up.

Also - lets not talk too much about the Arabic Slave trade.... Really does undermine the idea that Europeans were the monsters...

[Katman]

Remember kids, Africa had a well developed and established Slave Trade before the Europeans showed up.

So did the Maoris.

[TheDemonLord]

So did the Maoris.

I would disagree - I would say the Maori had well established cultural practice, but not a Trade.

There is a difference between a war party capturing people and forcing them into slavery (which, again, every culture on earth did at one point)

And specifically going on a raiding party to capture slaves to trade with other groups.

Whilst both are barbaric - there is a difference in intent, one is the by-product of a conflict - the other isnt.

[Katman]

I would disagree - I would say the Maori had well established cultural practice, but not a Trade.

Slaves certainly got passed around amongst Maori tribes.

[TheDemonLord]

Slaves certainly got passed around amongst Maori tribes.

Was that specifically for Trade or was that as part of gift giving and protocol?

This may seem pedantic - many cultures who interacted with other tribes would give gifts to each other (including Slaves) - but the practice of going out specifically to capture slaves with the sole intent of selling them was something that was well-established in Africa.

The Europeans came along and said: We will buy as much as you can sell.

Which is morally wrong - the point is that there is this myth that it was some european invention, it was not.

[pritch]

There was a trade in tattooed heads but that was after the Europeans arrived. Apparently it was not unknown for slaves to be tattooed specifically so that they could be beheaded and the head sold. Entrepreneurial initiative was alive and well. Even if the aforementioned slave wasn't.