RUC charges for all petrol vehicles by 2027

[nerrrd]

Do we think they can pull this off? If so, do we think motorcycles could be exempt? I note that despite RNZ using 'cars' in the headline, Brown uses 'all light vehicles' in the quotation below.


Speaking at the Building Nations conference in Auckland on Thursday, Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced a roadmap for moving all light vehicles to the RUC system and away from fuel tax.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/526491/petrol-cars-could-be-hit-with-road-user-charges-from-2027

[jellywrestler]

exempt, why, are you special needs? The north of auckland toll roads charge the same for bikes as cars so no real chance.

[BMWST?]

I dont know how they could do it . Its a manual system at the moment and i suspect there is a fair ammout of evasion going on..Ie disconnected odometers,and people risking driving without current RUC. I dont know if their is a checking system because there is no mileage check at the time of buying.
If all of a sudden there are millions more people wanting to buy ruc then the "shops" and the online system just couldnt handle it.
They will have to bring in some more classes i think. The current initial step is up to 3.5 tonnes. I think they need at least a couple of classes under that.
The AA are complaining that less fuel efficient vehicles are punished under the current system...what? that IS fair in my opinion. The new RUC could be based on more criteria than just weight,but I just cant see how they can implement it. It would have to be an automatic system but that will introduce its own set of challenges.
Petrol at the pump will go down heaps overnight.We might need front numberplates

[nerrrd]

exempt, why, are you special needs? The north of auckland toll roads charge the same for bikes as cars so no real chance.

Arguably, but if the driving force behind this is 'fairness' (also arguable), how are they going to define what's fair? What constitutes 'fair use' of the road for private users and will the type of vehicle involved be a consideration.

Same question will be coming up with congestion charges for those of us lucky enough to live in New Zealand's bustling metropolises.

With tolls are you paying to use the road or paying for the cost of building it (given they're only on new roads)?

[BMWST?]

With tolls are you paying to use the road or paying for the cost of building it (given they're only on new roads)?

Building it by paying to use it. Use the existing road and avoid the toll cos the road has already been paid for and you pay through your new RUC for the upkeep

[R650R]

I’ve been warning you all for ages this was coming, this is just the start.
What makes me laugh is the amount of people in news comments who think they are just going to delete their speedo cable line diesel owners do.
This will all be done via an app on your phone or ANPR cameras.
At least Nats are being honest and calling it a tax straight up, labour/greens would have done this eventually but called it carbon tax.

[pritch]

I dont know how they could do it . Its a manual system at the moment and i suspect there is a fair ammout of evasion going on..Ie disconnected odometers,and people risking driving without current RUC. I dont know if their is a checking system because there is no mileage check at the time of buying.
If all of a sudden there are millions more people wanting to buy ruc then the "shops" and the online system just couldnt handle it.
They will have to bring in some more classes i think. The current initial step is up to 3.5 tonnes. I think they need at least a couple of classes under that.
The AA are complaining that less fuel efficient vehicles are punished under the current system...what? that IS fair in my opinion. The new RUC could be based on more criteria than just weight,but I just cant see how they can implement it. It would have to be an automatic system but that will introduce its own set of challenges.
Petrol at the pump will go down heaps overnight.We might need front numberplates

Paying the tax at the pump is simple and relatively painless. Paying RUCs is not as simple and requires lump sum payments. Families with multiple vehicles will feel the pain. The Police don't have the staff to check that the charges have been paid so after the initial enthusiasm the only time it would be checked would be if the vehicle had been stopped for something else. That could lead to a high level of non compliance

One of the criteria for a tax is that it should be easily collectible. The current system wins in that regard.

[BMWST?]

I’ve been warning you all for ages this was coming, this is just the start.
What makes me laugh is the amount of people in news comments who think they are just going to delete their speedo cable line diesel owners do.
This will all be done via an app on your phone or ANPR cameras.
At least Nats are being honest and calling it a tax straight up, labour/greens would have done this eventually but called it carbon tax.

speedo cables?

[R650R]

I dont know how they could do it . Its a manual system at the moment and i suspect there is a fair ammout of evasion going on..Ie disconnected odometers,and people risking driving without current RUC. I dont know if their is a checking system because there is no mileage check at the time of buying.
If all of a sudden there are millions more people wanting to buy ruc then the "shops" and the online system just couldnt handle it.
They will have to bring in some more classes i think. The current initial step is up to 3.5 tonnes. I think they need at least a couple of classes under that.
The AA are complaining that less fuel efficient vehicles are punished under the current system...what? that IS fair in my opinion. The new RUC could be based on more criteria than just weight,but I just cant see how they can implement it. It would have to be an automatic system but that will introduce its own set of challenges.
Petrol at the pump will go down heaps overnight.We might need front numberplates

Initially could be by ANPR cameras or a small electronic tag that is remotely read by over head signpost. This is already proven implanted technology in other countries.
Quite likely though is a phone app given NZTA recent enthusiasm for developing the app where you store all your vehicle details just “ help you manage your rego fees”….
Covid set precedent for govt to force (effectively) you to install an app on your phone.
You will enter your bank details to pay automatically tolls and fines because app will also detect speeding via location services.
One silver lining is we could make cyclists pay as well. They already use an app called Strava that is super accurate, they have already mapped out most roads already.
Just like covid though they won’t throw it all on us at once. First it’s just the tolls later the speed detecting and driver identification factors will be added to reduce police workload and to “protect the community”.
Welcome to 1984 in 2024, about 40 years late but hey who said govts were ever efficient at implementation.

[R650R]

Paying the tax at the pump is simple and relatively painless. Paying RUCs is not as simple and requires lump sum payments. Families with multiple vehicles will feel the pain. The Police don't have the staff to check that the charges have been paid so after the initial enthusiasm the only time it would be checked would be if the vehicle had been stopped for something else. That could lead to a high level of non compliance

One of the criteria for a tax is that it should be easily collectible. The current system wins in that regard.

Police won’t be involved except when CCTV detects a non compliant vehicle. Most people will comply despite what they say. Just look back at Covid where many people said they won’t force me to wear a mask/scan in everywhere/take jab. When it finally came there was pretty much close to 100% compliance of some major challenges to individual freedoms.
What ever technology is used to implement it (see my other post) will be checked on your vehicle at WOF time. Just like trucks police can’t stop all of them but major penalties see pretty good compliance these days as technology of cctv and electronic records makes it easier to detect.
There is no easy out we will all pay up whether we like it or not

[pete376403]

Initially could be by ANPR cameras or a small electronic tag that is remotely read by over head signpost. This is already proven implanted technology in other countries.
Quite likely though is a phone app given NZTA recent enthusiasm for developing the app where you store all your vehicle details just “ help you manage your rego fees”….
Covid set precedent for govt to force (effectively) you to install an app on your phone.
You will enter your bank details to pay automatically tolls and fines because app will also detect speeding via location services.
One silver lining is we could make cyclists pay as well. They already use an app called Strava that is super accurate, they have already mapped out most roads already.
Just like covid though they won’t throw it all on us at once. First it’s just the tolls later the speed detecting and driver identification factors will be added to reduce police workload and to “protect the community”.
Welcome to 1984 in 2024, about 40 years late but hey who said govts were ever efficient at implementation.

Yes I could see this coming but there are a few "buts" - what if you dont use a mobile phone ? What if you had multiple bank accounts, and the linked one permanently has insufficient funds? Looking at previous government (of both stripes) attempts to develop software applications that work, what are the chances of them making this work ? Why not just put road tax onto diesel, and left non road users (ie farmers) claim it back?

[onearmedbandit]

I’ve been warning you all for ages this was coming, this is just the start.
What makes me laugh is the amount of people in news comments who think they are just going to delete their speedo cable line diesel owners do.
This will all be done via an app on your phone or ANPR cameras.
At least Nats are being honest and calling it a tax straight up, labour/greens would have done this eventually but called it carbon tax.

It's been talked about for a couple years now, everyone has heard about it whether they know of you or not. On the issue of a phone app, what, are they going to make it a law that you must travel with your mobile device everywhere you drive/ride?

[nerrrd]

Extending the manual system does seem, frankly, a stupid way to go, given you'll be giving up a simple, guaranteed income stream for one dependent on how well it's administered and how much compliance there is.

A digital system is going to cost hundreds of millions to set up and maintain, if it's even possible to do that reliably (and legally). I'm sure any number of IT consultants will be telling the government that it can be done, as per the usual over-promise-and-sort-the-details-out-later IT business model.

Either way, if they do manage to bring it in, I guess paying a flat 'private use' rate regardless of vehicle type is probably the most likely outcome. Sigh.

[R650R]

It's been talked about for a couple years now, everyone has heard about it whether they know of you or not. On the issue of a phone app, what, are they going to make it a law that you must travel with your mobile device everywhere you drive/ride?

They don’t have to. Just like Covid it became cumbersome to do the manual method of signing a book it became easier to point your phone at the sign.
Going to the movies no one prints ticket out you show your email screen shot of tickets etc.
It’s default human behaviour for vast majority to carry phone everywhere.
The alternative could be an Apple air tag type device mounted to vehicle but really it doesn’t matter. There’s a range of technology based solutions out there Eroad system on trucks great example of proven system in use.

[onearmedbandit]

You're right, it doesn't matter, there is plenty of tech available, but I doubt a compulsory phone app is the way it will be handled.

[jellywrestler]

It's been talked about for a couple years now, everyone has heard about it whether they know of you or not. On the issue of a phone app, what, are they going to make it a law that you must travel with your mobile device everywhere you drive/ride?

and how does it know you're driving, and not one of the five passngers carrying a phone, same with a bus passenger?

[MarkH]

do we think motorcycles could be exempt?[/URL]

Currently they use road tax on petrol, this idea is suggested as a replacement. Are motorcycles currently exempt from road tax on petrol?
I think the answer to my question would be the same as the answer to yours.

[Berries]

Yes, but we are talking RUC which historically has been based on vehicle mass and the direct link of that mass or number of axles with road wear.

You could argue that a light 2 wheel vehicle, like an ebike or a motorbike, doesn't cause any measurable wear or damage and therefore should pay a lesser amount.

[nerrrd]

Currently they use road tax on petrol, this idea is suggested as a replacement. Are motorcycles currently exempt from road tax on petrol?
I think the answer to my question would be the same as the answer to yours.

You're 100% right, what was I thinking, but there is a variation based on fuel consumption which is tipped in our (my?) favour. At the moment it costs me $25 to fill, which usually lasts me two or more weeks.


Yes, but we are talking RUC which historically has been based on vehicle mass and the direct link of that mass or number of axles with road wear.

You could argue that a light 2 wheel vehicle, like an ebike or a motorbike, doesn't cause any measurable wear or damage and therefore should pay a lesser amount.

Exactly, and that's broadly mirrored by the more petrol your (private) vehicle uses, the more tax you pay. It's a blunt instrument and won't be fair for everybody, but I'm not sure it's unfair enough to deserve spending lots of money to 'fix.'

Rather it looks to me (long term) that they want to move everyone to a flat rate charge for using the roads, regardless of vehicle type.

[BMWST?]

You're 100% right, what was I thinking, but there is a variation based on fuel consumption which is tipped in our (my?) favour. At the moment it costs me $25 to fill, which usually lasts me two or more weeks.



Exactly, and that's broadly mirrored by the more petrol your (private) vehicle uses, the more tax you pay. It's a blunt instrument and won't be fair for everybody, but I'm not sure it's unfair enough to deserve spending lots of money to 'fix.'

Rather it looks to me (long term) that they want to move everyone to a flat rate charge for using the roads, regardless of vehicle type.

i think they want to do more than that. I have absolutely no knowledge of what they want to do but i think they will introduce a more complex system for light vehicles encompassing fuel economy ,fuel type,co2, etc. I think any "light vehicle" has very little impact on road wear. They might even have some sort of vehicle classifications related to congestion

[R650R]

You're 100% right, what was I thinking, but there is a variation based on fuel consumption which is tipped in our (my?) favour. At the moment it costs me $25 to fill, which usually lasts me two or more weeks.



Exactly, and that's broadly mirrored by the more petrol your (private) vehicle uses, the more tax you pay. It's a blunt instrument and won't be fair for everybody, but I'm not sure it's unfair enough to deserve spending lots of money to 'fix.'

Rather it looks to me (long term) that they want to move everyone to a flat rate charge for using the roads, regardless of vehicle type.

Long term the plan worldwide is for EVERYBODY to be off the road except for essential travel.
The last 100 years of freedom of movement over long distance relatively easily and cheaply has been a brief experiment of freedom in letting us roam off the plantation.
Roads were primarily built for movement of the kings armies and secondary for trade. Private travel is a luxury side effect.

[R650R]

i think they want to do more than that. I have absolutely no knowledge of what they want to do but i think they will introduce a more complex system for light vehicles encompassing fuel economy ,fuel type,co2, etc. I think any "light vehicle" has very little impact on road wear. They might even have some sort of vehicle classifications related to congestion

You have to think of roads as a system it’s not just the tarmac. That old chestnut about trucks wear out roads more is just a distraction really( even though yes it’s true technically ).You also have associated drainage, median barriers, lighting and expensive electronic signage infrastructure.
I think the average motorist would be in for a shock if by some magic trucks vanished and rail did everything, along with the loss in RUC revenue.
Just look at cycle lanes you can honestly say they are a true zero impact on road wear but we already see the massive cost in painting seperate lanes for them and sweeping roadside of glass and nails for them.
The end goal they probably want is Singapore. That is a true anti private vehicle system that forces all but wealthy onto public transport.

[R650R]

and how does it know you're driving, and not one of the five passngers carrying a phone, same with a bus passenger?

Maybe an electronic interlock on ignition like those damn electric scooters. Inserting your credit card would identify and pair with your phone authorising movement. There’s lots of existing systems that could be easily integrated like this.

[Berries]

Long term the plan worldwide is for EVERYBODY to be off the road except for essential travel.
Interested to know who you think is running the world and has this plan.

I feel like I am missing something, can you post a link?

[HenryDorsetCase]

People got all exercised about "tyranny" for COVID measures - what the fuck is this except FASCISM in its purest form. How DARE they? Lets occupy fucking parliament!!!!! its a conspiracy to deprive us of our guns and our first amendment rights and its unconstitutional!!!!!!!! MAN THE BARRICADES!!!!

[onearmedbandit]

Interested to know who you think is running the world and has this plan.

I feel like I am missing something, can you post a link?

It's a shadowy group that only do stuff in the shadows that 99% of the population are too asleep to realise are in control of everything you do and have a plan to make everyone do as they please for some sort of benefit that only the awake 1% are aware of.

[Moi]

I can tell you now this is what's happening...

Last night had a wee chat with Simeon while he was eating his baked beans on toast. Aunty Nicola has told him that if he wants to build lots of roads for his cars and trucks to play on in his sandpit then he better find some money for the sand - "It doesn't grow on trees!" is what she told him. So he thought if he charged all his friends to play with their cars and trucks in his sandpit he'd have enough money for the sand for his present sandpit and what's left over could be used to extend the sandpit. So, if you want to play in Simeon's sandpit with your car or truck or whatever makes you wet your pants you'd better have a few gold coins to toss his way when you wander round the back of the house to play 'vroom, vroom'.

[Berries]

It's a shadowy group that only do stuff in the shadows that 99% of the population are too asleep to realise are in control of everything you do and have a plan to make everyone do as they please for some sort of benefit that only the awake 1% are aware of.
The fucking Wiggles again.

I knew it.

[rastuscat]

Traditionally the weight of the vehicle has determined the level of RUC, as greater weight means more damage to a road.

Even my bike is lighter than almost every car.

The devil is in the detail with this proposal.

[Moi]

The fucking Wiggles again.

I knew it.

Not quite.

They are the puppets of the Teletubbies who were manipulated by the original greenies, the Wombles of Wimbledon...

[HenryDorsetCase]

Not quite.

They are the puppets of the Teletubbies who were manipulated by the original greenies, the Wombles of Wimbledon...

At last I have a use for this photo

[Moi]

At last I have a use for this photo

Haha!

:shit::shit::shit:

Some of Yammie Noob's groupies :facepalm:

[Berries]

The Wiggles have let themselves go.

[sugilite]

https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/teletubbies-bikes.png

See that bike with no rider? They just got back from burying the poor bastard after he ran out of RUC - You have been warned!

[rastuscat]

https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/teletubbies-bikes.png

See that bike with no rider? They just got back from burying the poor bastard after he ran out of RUC - You have been warned!

Overtaking across no passing lines on a bend. No wonder he's no longer with us.

[Pixie]

Interested to know who you think is running the world and has this plan.

I feel like I am missing something, can you post a link?

Like me , you are missing a tin foil hat