Ignition Timing

[diesel pig]

Now I admit I don`t know much about fowl strokes ... I mean four strokes. But I am currently looking into up grading the ignition on my cousin`s next Post classic and thought I better see what timing it should have. All I have info wise, on it is a very ratty photocopy of a factory manual and a very old Hayne`s manual. The thing is they are not the same. The factory one says retarded 15 Degrees at 1500 revs, Advanced 22 D at 3000. The Haynes says 15 D at 1500 OK the same but Advanced 37 D at 3000. What gives? is the Haynes just wrong? I know on fowl strokes it`s different but on a best stroke ... I mean a two stroke 37 degrees would kill it. Any ideas?

[pete376403]

What is it? 15 retarded ( as in after TDC) sounds unlikely, even lawn mowers run a few degress before TDC.

[diesel pig]

What is it? 15 retarded ( as in after TDC) sounds unlikely, even lawn mowers run a few degress before TDC.

I assume it is 15 degrees before Top Dead center. As the factory one is done as 15 D BTDC and I think that is what those capitals stand for.

[Grumph]

The info I have for the 550 is 15deg advance at the F mark and 22 degrees at 3000rpm.

22 won't be full advance, just a check on the advance curve.

Put a Dyna on it. Just a basic one will do.

[diesel pig]

The info I have for the 550 is 15deg advance at the F mark and 22 degrees at 3000rpm.

22 won't be full advance, just a check on the advance curve.

Put a Dyna on it. Just a basic one will do.

Good Grief, So 15 at 1500,22 at 3000 and then it ultimately it go`s to 37? it rev`s to 10000 so it gets to 37 timing at what 6000 or 8000rpm?

[Grumph]

Good Grief, So 15 at 1500,22 at 3000 and then it ultimately it go`s to 37? it rev`s to 10000 so it gets to 37 timing at what 6000 or 8000rpm?

Yeah, that would be pretty close. Probably hits full advance around 5000. Stock.

A race curve would probably get full advance about 3000.

That's a pretty conservative advance. The 550 head burns well. Yamaha OW01 - which does not burn efficiently at all - uses around 52 degrees advance.....
You're not dealing with nice fast burn 2strokes here Neil.

[diesel pig]

I think I might have worked out why they are different numbers. Looking through the pile (it is a literal pile) of photocopies of the factory manual. It turns out there was a hun low power version with different Cam timing numbers compared to the rest of the world version. So what if I found the factory ignition timing for that version? and the Haynes numbers are for the rest of the world version? I will have to have another look through the pile.

[Grumph]

Figures I quoted are from a UK printed service and setup book. Everything I've used it on seems the same as NZ market.

[F5 Dave]

My memory still seems to work.

I recall a CBX550 being punted around the short Rua track in pursuit of a Black GS Thou. Focused young man in black leathers riding in a very spirited manner. Ring any bells? .

Maybe the brake shrouds were removed?

[Grumph]

My memory still seems to work.

I recall a CBX550 being punted around the short Rua track in pursuit of a Black GS Thou. Focused young man in black leathers riding in a very spirited manner. Ring any bells? .

Maybe the brake shrouds were removed?

Couple of random neurons collided did they ? Well done.

[diesel pig]

I recall a CBX550 being punted around the short Rua track in pursuit of a Black GS Thou. Focused young man in black leathers riding in a very spirited manner. Ring any bells? .

The short track is a couple of years before my time. So I am afraid I don't know. I have see a picture of a hoted up NZ one CBX550 from back at the time they were new, Maybe it was that one?

[diesel pig]

Put a Dyna on it. Just a basic one will do.

I am afraid Ignitech has a hold of my heart. I have had a quick chat with the NZ importer of Ignitech and he is sure we can do a system to suit the Post classic and since I use ignitech`s on almost all my Two stroke`s I know the system backwards and forwards. So should have no worries setting one up.

[Grumph]

My most vivid memory of Neil and Betty is Greymouth in the wet. And Neil disappearing towards Westport sliding on his arse at high speed.

[F5 Dave]

I was meaning the track we were using for BOB, would have been a CAMs meeting I guess with Posties etc.

[diesel pig]

I was meaning the track we were using for BOB, would have been a CAMs meeting I guess with Posties etc.

Oh, you were taking the piss out of me. The reason I didn't catch on is all the GS thou`s I can remember racing were red.

[diesel pig]

My most vivid memory of Neil and Betty is Greymouth in the wet. And Neil disappearing towards Westport sliding on his arse at high speed.

Must of been the time I thought I was invincible because I had wets fitted. I rudely found out although they are good in the wet they are not perfect.

[F5 Dave]

Um, no, not taking the piss. You'd know as it would be witty to the point of caustic. Maybe.
It was over a decade ago. Urgh. The new 50 was 2004 so maybe 2 decades ago?

Funny how the brain works. I saw the CBX in the same Red/White colour as my old one. Greg mentioned Betty and heck. It was the CBX that was Black not the GS.

That's why eye witness testimonials are so fallible. The brain takes shortcuts.

D.

[BMWST?]

Um, no, not taking the piss. You'd know as it would be witty to the point of caustic. Maybe.
It was over a decade ago. Urgh. The new 50 was 2004 so maybe 2 decades ago?

Funny how the brain works. I saw the CBX in the same Red/White colour as my old one. Greg mentioned Betty and heck. It was the CBX that was Black not the GS.

That's why eye witness testimonials are so fallible. The brain takes shortcuts.

D.
If i think of GS's now I always visualize the white and blue S models.
I saw a post when this thread was started as I was interested as another mate had a red/white(CBX 550) one .Someone said the Haynes manual was not very good

[husaberg]

If I was going to build a 60s look GP replica Honda multi the engine I would use would be a CBX400F or 550.
reasonably narrow for AC 4 with the alternator tucked up the back.
355442355443

355444

Seen this while looking for an Engine pic


355445

Were these the same engine family?
355446
looking at the pics its looks like the VTech one?

[diesel pig]

No the alternator is on the end of the crank. Although it is missing in that second picture. What you can see in the first picture is the drive for the starter motor. Until I studied that last picture, I would of said nothing to do with a CBX and CBR but that does look like CBX400 engine in a newer style frame. So I do not know.

[Grumph]

That does look like the Vtech version.

As Neil will confirm, that engine family isn't the greatest point to start developing a race motor.
The Morse chain primary drive is the main weak point. It doesn't like revs or HP.

I was under the impression for some time that NZ had run out of sound CBX550 engine cases due to
the number destroyed developing Betty. Apparently more were sold here than I thought.

I'm told that Paul Pav back in the day made a good attempt at reducing stocks when racing his one too.

[Kickaha]

I was under the impression for some time that NZ had run out of sound CBX550 engine cases due to
the number destroyed developing Betty. Apparently more were sold here than I thought.

I only remember one being destroyed when the primary chain letting go tried to saw the engine in half

It's more of a problem getting the correct bearings for the crank he has

[diesel pig]

The Morse chain primary drive is the main weak point. It doesn't like revs or HP.

I now believe the Morse* chain breaking was a symptom not the cause of the crankcase being Chain-sawed almost in half. At the start of being off injured, a couple of years ago, I found one of the clutch basket`s involved, cleaned it and carefully studied it under a Magnifying Glass, the steel plate riveted to the back of the clutch holding the primary Drive sprocket to the basket, has rectangle cut outs in it for the crush drive springs and there were cracks starting from the corners nearest the outside edge. On one of the cut outs both cracks had reach the edge of the steel plate and the resulting piece of steel had no where to go but between the sprocket and the chain.

*It is really a Morse chain made in England. I worked this out after finding out what the symbol was stamped into the side of the chain. I must admit it made me laugh to think the chain was made in England, shipped to Japan put in a CBX and in some cases ( CBX550s were sold in England ) shipped back to England!

[diesel pig]

I only remember one being destroyed when the primary chain letting go tried to saw the engine in half

It's more of a problem getting the correct bearings for the crank he has

It was two set`s of cases in the end. I have not been able to get new crankshaft bearings to rebuild the original engine in another set of cases. I have got another motor, witch I am going put all the good parts on to it ( including a uprated clutch basket )

[diesel pig]

I have talked to the NZ rep of Ignitech. He assured me that they can do a customizable set up for a four cylinder fowl stroke ... I mean four stroke. So I will go with the stock ign numbers and see where to go from there.

[husaberg]

I have talked to the NZ rep of Ignitech. He assured me that they can do a customizable set up for a four cylinder fowl stroke ... I mean four stroke. So I will go with the stock ign numbers and see where to go from there.

https://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/tcip.htm



SPARKER TCIP4 is so-called inductive ignition (battery, transistor, TCI) with revolution and TPS regulation of the advance. This type of ignition is used for most multi-cylinder road motorbikes. SPARKER TCIP4 ignition is prepared for many individual bike types. It can be assembled to practically any carburettor motorbike with stable dashboard voltage 12 V. CBR, CB, VF, GSX, VS, XTZ, TDM, FJ, XJ, LTD, ZX, EN ... motorbikes can be mentioned as an example. If the sensor system of customer`s bike does not comply with SPARKER TCIP4 ignition, it can be adjust by means of special settings.SPARKER TCIP4 ignition is equipped with two inputs for pickup, input for throttle position sensor or inlet air pressure sensor, two multifunctional switch inputs (for blocking, kill switch, retard...), output for tachometer, two multifunction switch outputs (for fuel pump relay, gear shift light ...), outputs for servomotor.
SPARKER TCIP4 is produced with several modifications according pickup system and according used coils.
Ignition is fully programmable by software. Software included advance map or curve, options for blocking, revolution limiter, servo ...

A lot if Racing older efi Ducatis in NZ use an ignitec they also do an ignijet... for fuel injecion....:msn-wink:

https://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/ignijet/ignijet.htm

[husaberg]

Looks like someone else figured out that they would make a good replica basis

https://www.classicracer.com/honda-rc181-replica/

[diesel pig]

Looks like someone else figured out that they would make a good replica basis

https://www.classicracer.com/honda-rc181-replica/

The only thing I picked the author getting wrong was the CBX400/550 had a Morse Hi - Vi chain driving the cams not a shaft. Maybe the broke who made this bike was trying to tell the author he had changed it to a roller chain?

[husaberg]

The only thing I picked the author getting wrong was the CBX400/550 had a Morse Hi - Vi chain driving the cams not a shaft. Maybe the broke who made this bike was trying to tell the author he had changed it to a roller chain?
I think he was referring to the final drive
no idea re the 550s in Europe never seen one with traditional discs like the one in the pic in the article
355637


I never read it but seen what it was based on...
but looking here at least one of the 400 versions was shaft final drive
355635

according to the blurb it looks like there was a shaft 550 but then again it says the alt is behind the cylinders?
I assume the CBX650 is a smaller CBX750 which was likely a 700 for the US at the time. (Save Harley import RULE)

it looks like the valve gear is different according to the blurb? not just shaft.

355636

Any parts look the same to you? on the 83 550 USA parts fiche?

https://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/l/hon/5053ff03f870021c54beacfe/1983-cb550sca-nighwk-550-parts

the center code is different than the CBX550 euro
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cbx550f-1983-d_model50025/crankcase-set_11000ma6000/

similar but different....

[diesel pig]

I think the mag has just used the wrong picture. That's I am pretty sure is a pic of a twin cam CB750/900 of roughly the sane time period 1978/82 and all the other pics in your post are of later different versions of the same.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY_8aYJFsto

Different engine.
https://www.webbikeworld.com/honda-nighthaw-2/