whose to blame here

[jellywrestler]

The cyclist had plenty of time to react, but was clipped from behind, yes the car didn't indicate but the one in front reacted well, seems to me it's 'someone else's fault' according to the rider.
Take some responsibility for your own group methinks

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360565659/cyclist-goes-over-handlebars-after-near-collision-auckland

[Berries]

You're English teacher.

[rastuscat]

I love these "who is to blame" discussions. Brings out the ignorance of the law.

Land Transport Act 1998 Section 37, Careless Driving.

The JP will apply the test "were these the actions of a careful and prudent driver".

Car drivers liability all day, but the cyclist could also have avoided this.

[onearmedbandit]

Car drivers liability all day, but the cyclist could also have avoided this.

Totally agree.

On another note, I do feel the cyclist is milking it a bit. Could've broken his neck or been killed. I mean sure, maybe, so he is kinda right. But I had far worse accidents on pushbikes when I was young, before helmets were a thing, and suffered nothing worse than abrasions and cuts.

[nerrrd]

The lycra brigade do travel pretty fast, especially the pros, which may explain why the driver claims she didn't see them (not expecting cyclists to be approaching from behind at that speed). I regularly see cyclists (especially the e-powered ones, even scarier, the e-powered scooterists) matching, maybe even exceeding the speed limit around Auckland which is a risky approach to take in built up areas.

However she's clearly at fault, and if his bike's damaged as a result, he's perfectly entitled to expect her (or her insurance?) to cover the cost of the damage.

I'm also reminded seeing this about the bit in the road code which points out that even if you have the right of way, you're expected to be ready to take all reasonable measures to avoid a crash. I get the impression his attention was elsewhere until he saw his team-mate ahead moving out of the corner of his eye and grabbed a hand full of brake in a panic.

How's that for a whole load of assumptions!

[pete376403]

If bike was worth that much then the owner should have it insured for full replacement value. If I bin on the road, regardless of fault, its insured or replacement is on me.

[Berries]

Group rides and following distances eh?

Slow down Merckx.

[release_the_bees]

My first thought was that he could have done with ABS. [emoji23]

It just goes to show that even cyclists should practice emergency braking.

[sugilite]

I see the cyclist is trying to claim 12,000 from the car driver in damages to the bike. He also claims that though he had these expensive parts for near 1 month he had been far to busy to sent the 5 min email to the insurance company to up his policy.
I ask, how does a cyclist that provides a convenient human cushion for his bike to land on at relatively low speed incur $12,000 smackers in damage?

[Stylo]

You're English teacher.

Correction. It's ' Your English teacher ' What were you saying ?

[Laava]

Correction. It's ' Your English teacher ' What were you saying ?
He was channeling Borat.

[Berries]

Whooosshh.

[rastuscat]

I see the cyclist is trying to claim 12,000 from the car driver in damages to the bike. He also claims that though he had these expensive parts for near 1 month he had been far to busy to sent the 5 min email to the insurance company to up his policy.
I ask, how does a cyclist that provides a convenient human cushion for his bike to land on at relatively low speed incur $12,000 smackers in damage?

Cycles are awesomely expensive these days.

If the frame is toast, which it likely is, that's the guts of it. Replacement cost. The gears are likely Dura Ace Di2, which is crazy expensive, then you have the finishing kit and wheels.

My road bike is worth more than many motorcycles I see, for no good reason. I'm never going to be riding the TdF. But a lot of people have motorcycles fit for the Nurburgring, which get pootled aroud the Coro Loop once a year, and only on fine days.

Brakes on road bikes are better than ever, but the laws of physics are quite inflexible. Group riding has hazards, and this is just one of them.

[sugilite]

Thank you for your reply Rastuscat.
I figured the frame would be the most expensive part, but watching that video over and over, I was not seeing the sort of impact, especially with the bike landing on him to bend the frame.
However, I'm making my assumptions off my own experiences with mountain bikes which likely have entirely different frame tech to survive the riquors where as I'm guessing roadbikes have traits akin to race horses, fast but fragile?


Cycles are awesomely expensive these days.

If the frame is toast, which it likely is, that's the guts of it. Replacement cost. The gears are likely Dura Ace Di2, which is crazy expensive, then you have the finishing kit and wheels.

My road bike is worth more than many motorcycles I see, for no good reason. I'm never going to be riding the TdF. But a lot of people have motorcycles fit for the Nurburgring, which get pootled aroud the Coro Loop once a year, and only on fine days.

Brakes on road bikes are better than ever, but the laws of physics are quite inflexible. Group riding has hazards, and this is just one of them.

[SaferRides]

It looks like the cyclist actually managed to miss the car, but didn't know to ease off slightly as he came to a complete stop.

Two thoughts - had he ever practiced an emergency stop and they were following each other too close.

(Note to self to find a quiet road and practice emergency braking. It's been a while.)

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

[pritch]

The JP will apply the test "were these the actions of a careful and prudent driver".


This is disputes tribunal though. Is that a JP or a Judge Judy? They tend to say there's wrong on both sides and award costs on a 50/50 basis.

[nerrrd]

This is disputes tribunal though. Is that a JP or a Judge Judy? They tend to say there wrong on both sides and award costs on a 50/50 basis.

Do we know how old the driver was? Might have an influence on how much she ends up paying if she's on a fixed income? Even $6000 will be a lot of money for someone living just on the pension.

[rastuscat]

Do we know how old the driver was? Might have an influence on how much she ends up paying if she's on a fixed income? Even $6000 will be a lot of money for someone living just on the pension.

Note to self : Get hit by someone with deep pockets and a job.

[pete376403]

Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004
Stopping and following distances
(1)
A driver must not drive a vehicle in a lane marked on a road at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in the length of the lane that is visible to the driver.
(2)
A driver must not drive a vehicle on a road that is not marked in lanes at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in half the length of roadway that is visible to the driver.
(3)
A driver must not drive on a road a vehicle following behind another vehicle so that the driver cannot stop the driver’s vehicle short of the vehicle ahead if the vehicle ahead stops suddenly.

Therefore cyclist is at fault, not the driver (even if the driver was a careless arse who didn't look)

[rastuscat]

Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004
Stopping and following distances
(1)A driver must not drive a vehicle in a lane marked on a road at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in the length of the lane that is visible to the driver.
(2)A driver must not drive a vehicle on a road that is not marked in lanes at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in half the length of roadway that is visible to the driver.
(3)A driver must not drive on a road a vehicle following behind another vehicle so that the driver cannot stop the driver’s vehicle short of the vehicle ahead if the vehicle ahead stops suddenly.

Therefore cyclist is at fault, not the driver (even if the driver was a careless arse who didn't look)

Contributory negligence is a legal defense that can be used in personal injury lawsuits when the injured person is partially responsible for their own injuries.

The driver initiated the problem, but the riders made it worse.

Thing with the law is it's expected to deal with every situation. The transition from theory to application is tenuous. Imagine if the Police were to start writing tickets for every cyclist who followed too closely.

I kind of feel sorry for the people who write and enforce the law. Many transport laws are so technical that enforcement is virtually impossible.

[TheDemonLord]

I decided to have a look into where this was - based on some rough maths - they are moving close to 40 kph.

The lead rider is quite far to the left, with the 3rd rider being in the middle of the road, looks to be about a 2-3 metre gap between each rider.

I would estimate that the driver started to pull out 1-2 seconds before the accident, right when the lead rider would likely have been obscured by the parked car.

If the person driving did see the Cyclists, it is reasonable that she would have seen the 3rd or 4th rider in the pack, which would have given an altered perception of where the other road users are.

I suspect they didnt see the Cyclists, pulled out, saw, the Cyclists - went Oh Shit, panicked and kinda just stopped (ironically, if they had gotten on with it - most likely wouldnt have had the issues).

So, the Car driver has an element of Fault - I dont think they looked properly and didnt pull out safely.

As others have pointed out, however - driving and riding so that you cannot stop safely is also against the law.

The first rider was able to successfully avoid the accident.

The third rider was able to successfully avoid the accident.

The second rider, however, puts their foot down, turns their handlebars, this causing them to be bucked off (which is something I did as a kid, broke my arm - the culprit was a static Bush) - This was a rider-induced error.

As such - I would say that this is a classic split fault accident. The Riders were riding too fast to stop safely and the rider who stacked it did a number of actions that exagerated the damage that they incurred.

The driver also pulled out without properly checking it was safe to do so and by stopping mid-move, created additional hazards.

[Gremlin]

Cycles are awesomely expensive these days.

If the frame is toast, which it likely is, that's the guts of it. Replacement cost. The gears are likely Dura Ace Di2, which is crazy expensive, then you have the finishing kit and wheels.

My road bike is worth more than many motorcycles I see, for no good reason. I'm never going to be riding the TdF. But a lot of people have motorcycles fit for the Nurburgring, which get pootled aroud the Coro Loop once a year, and only on fine days.
When we were in Taupo for the Ironman 70.3 World Champs in December, we did some rough math across the thousands of racked bikes, and put it somewhere in the ball park of $50-100m (that's million) worth of bikes. Suddenly the odd security guard overnight looks like chump change...

[pritch]

Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004
Stopping and following distances
(1)
A driver must not drive a vehicle in a lane marked on a road at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in the length of the lane that is visible to the driver.
(2)
A driver must not drive a vehicle on a road that is not marked in lanes at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in half the length of roadway that is visible to the driver.
(3)
A driver must not drive on a road a vehicle following behind another vehicle so that the driver cannot stop the driver’s vehicle short of the vehicle ahead if the vehicle ahead stops suddenly.

Therefore cyclist is at fault, not the driver (even if the driver was a careless arse who didn't look)

That's interesting but completely irrelevant. The cyclist could see for miles, the car pulled out in front of him.

[nzspokes]

My first thought was that he could have done with ABS. [emoji23]

It just goes to show that even cyclists should practice emergency braking.

ABS is a thing on bicycles these days.

[nzspokes]

I decided to have a look into where this was - based on some rough maths - they are moving close to 40 kph.

The lead rider is quite far to the left, with the 3rd rider being in the middle of the road, looks to be about a 2-3 metre gap between each rider.

I would estimate that the driver started to pull out 1-2 seconds before the accident, right when the lead rider would likely have been obscured by the parked car.

If the person driving did see the Cyclists, it is reasonable that she would have seen the 3rd or 4th rider in the pack, which would have given an altered perception of where the other road users are.

I suspect they didnt see the Cyclists, pulled out, saw, the Cyclists - went Oh Shit, panicked and kinda just stopped (ironically, if they had gotten on with it - most likely wouldnt have had the issues).

So, the Car driver has an element of Fault - I dont think they looked properly and didnt pull out safely.

As others have pointed out, however - driving and riding so that you cannot stop safely is also against the law.

The first rider was able to successfully avoid the accident.

The third rider was able to successfully avoid the accident.

The second rider, however, puts their foot down, turns their handlebars, this causing them to be bucked off (which is something I did as a kid, broke my arm - the culprit was a static Bush) - This was a rider-induced error.

As such - I would say that this is a classic split fault accident. The Riders were riding too fast to stop safely and the rider who stacked it did a number of actions that exagerated the damage that they incurred.

The driver also pulled out without properly checking it was safe to do so and by stopping mid-move, created additional hazards.

You would have a different response if it was a motorcycle.

[TheDemonLord]

You would have a different response if it was a motorcycle.

That is a pretty fair accusation.

But it relies on a Motorcyclist riding like a push bike - which I think would get critiqued.

[R650R]

I agree with Pete’s comments, hope we get to hear final outcome.

All the car driver is possibly guilty of is an improper manoeuvre or careless use, $150 fine at most.

I freezexframe watched the vid a few times;

1 lead cyclist observed hazard and reacts avoiding collision.
2 Second cyclist is following too closely and probably relying solely on verbal warnings from lead rider as all he can prob see is number ones butt cheeks.
3 third cyclist also not pay proper attention and clips the back wheel of second cyclist, if you watch clearly this is the only real collision and the 99% cause of rider two falling.
4 You can guarantee these racing bicycles won’t have the required by legislation fitments of reflectors on pedals and wheels. The tyres will also be race spec and will have not for road (public) use stamped on side. So Lycra boys you can F off into sunset with your flimsy case.
5 Likely that all of them will be running Strava app or similar on their phones tracking their rides. I’d file for seizure of that data in interests of establishing the riders typical behaviour on public roads.
Also that data would be a case for having an unsanctioned race on public roads.

[nzspokes]

I agree with Pete’s comments, hope we get to hear final outcome.

All the car driver is possibly guilty of is an improper manoeuvre or careless use, $150 fine at most.

I freezexframe watched the vid a few times;

1 lead cyclist observed hazard and reacts avoiding collision.
2 Second cyclist is following too closely and probably relying solely on verbal warnings from lead rider as all he can prob see is number ones butt cheeks.
3 third cyclist also not pay proper attention and clips the back wheel of second cyclist, if you watch clearly this is the only real collision and the 99% cause of rider two falling.
4 You can guarantee these racing bicycles won’t have the required by legislation fitments of reflectors on pedals and wheels. The tyres will also be race spec and will have not for road (public) use stamped on side. So Lycra boys you can F off into sunset with your flimsy case.
5 Likely that all of them will be running Strava app or similar on their phones tracking their rides. I’d file for seizure of that data in interests of establishing the riders typical behaviour on public roads.
Also that data would be a case for having an unsanctioned race on public roads.

The root cause is the driver pulling out. If that didnt happen, then nothing else would have. She should be charged.

Group rides are dangerous, watch a Poker run etc. They often crash into each other.

Most motorcycles have the factory reflectors removed from the forks, tail tidy's etc. There is no DOT requirement for bicycle tyres.

So you have a ride App running all the time to prove you never speed or roll through stop signs?

[R650R]

The root cause is the driver pulling out. If that didnt happen, then nothing else would have. She should be charged.

Group rides are dangerous, watch a Poker run etc. They often crash into each other.

Most motorcycles have the factory reflectors removed from the forks, tail tidy's etc. There is no DOT requirement for bicycle tyres.

So you have a ride App running all the time to prove you never speed or roll through stop signs?

No because it’s not needed, that’s as absurd an idea as always being with someone as an alibi, perhaps one should walk around with a strawman in todays world ;p

It’s an urban environment you’re going to get people pulling out of parking spaces. If there’s no collisions just the grind of city life. Just take roundabouts, at some stage we e all had to force a little gap in rush hour to keep moving that isn’t a 100% not failing to give way.

We really need more info. She’s probably looked to see it was clear (no one wants to another by the rubbish truck or bus) then been focused perhaps in front of car getting past car parked in front. Meanwhile the Tour de France wannabes have just come steaming over a ride perhaps at a speed inconsistent with local traffic flow. A lot of these residential streets have speed limits less than 50.

I keep my fork reflectors and with the tyres it may not matter if our law doesn’t specify, it’s superseded by the manufacturer stating what it’s safe use is for.

[release_the_bees]

Meanwhile the Tour de France wannabes have just come steaming over a ride perhaps at a speed inconsistent with local traffic flow. A lot of these residential streets have speed limits less than 50.

I'll never forget the time, as a learner, religiously sticking to the 50 km/h speed limit, only to be overtaken by a bunch of cyclists whilst riding down a steep hill. [emoji1787]



Sent from my SM-S901E using Tapatalk

[neels]

The drivers action initiated the event. The rider's actions caused the outcome.

The driver has failed to see a group of riders in grey riding in and out of the shade from the trees, or not recognised how fast they were travelling, so a misjudgement on their part.

The cyclist in this case appears to have grabbed a handful of his probably very high spec front brake, tripped over his own feet and then been clipped from behind. The result of this is he's launched himself over the handlebars, while his riding companions have all managed to stay upright.

If he'd taken the 10 minutes required to insure his bike, then his insurance company would take up the fight to pay for the damage, if it was deemed the car driver was at fault.

As previously posted maybe a fine is in order for the driver for the unsafe driving, but the cause of any damage was the cyclist reacting poorly and throwing themselves down the road, so the cost of their actions rests with them.

I've had a few occasions when cycling where cars have pulled out in front of me, fortunately at worst I've ended up is leaning on the side of theiir car looking in the window at a startled driver, but have managed to not panic grab the brakes and create my own accident before even getting to the car.

The safety messaging has been around for a long time, make yourself visible, ride to the conditions, the bigger the speed the bigger the mess.

[rastuscat]

I'll never forget the time, as a learner, religiously sticking to the 50 km/h speed limit, only to be overtaken by a bunch of cyclists whilst riding down a steep hill. [emoji1787]



Sent from my SM-S901E using Tapatalk

Go sit on Hackthorne Road, Cashmere, Christchurch, any weekend.

Not a single cyclist sticks to the speed limit down there. When the road cycling nationals were there a few years ago, cyclists were doing 90+ kmh down that hill.

Legally, as there was a road closure in place for the event.

[Racing Dave]

Go sit on Hackthorne Road, Cashmere, Christchurch, any weekend.

Not a single cyclist sticks to the speed limit down there. When the road cycling nationals were there a few years ago, cyclists were doing 90+ kmh down that hill.

Legally, as there was a road closure in place for the event.

Funnily enough, in pre-Demerit Points days, and when an RD250LC was the weapon of choice (1981?), that was the speed I was ticketed for on that same road.

[F5 Dave]

Yesterday I was approaching a roundabout with a decent hill to wind up to warp 8 and a cyclist wearing less than a Hottie at a nightclub stormed through with a very serious expression on his face.

Fuck I wouldn't enter a roundabout that fast in a car especially if you could see people approaching the other entries. We could have been texting or changing channels on the wireless. (Hey! There's no slot for my CD in this stereo!).

As an Instructor used to say "Great, they can put "I had the right of way" on your headstone'.

[pritch]

All the car driver is possibly guilty of is an improper manoeuvre or careless use, $150 fine at most.


Opening a car door in front of a cyclist cost the driver $10,000. That's a long way north of $150. This case isn't in court. It's in a disputes tribunal, a different beast.

[R650R]

I mentioned in another thread about cyclists using cellphones, well it’s happening often enough it’s been caught in epic style on dashcam.
Angry Lycra wearer on wrong side of road cellphone in hand head on into car. Starts just before six minute mark.
Followed up by non seatbelt wearer falling out of 4wd at roundabout, some sharp situational awareness and a bagger fails predictably in tight left up inside lane split.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjogHcWIHWE&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

[rastuscat]

"Great, they can put "I had the right of way" on your headstone'.

Might start using that one.

The one I use now is "being right doesn't mean much when you are lying in the back of an ambulance."

[F5 Dave]

Feel free. An Instructor mate used it on courses but hell this was over 30 years ago.

[BMWST?]

Feel free. An Instructor mate used it on courses but hell this was over 30 years ago.

used to talk about that 45 years ago as a riding instructor for beginners and more advanced courses

[onearmedbandit]

Mine is 'the hospital, morgue and cemetery are all full of people who were in the right'.

[F5 Dave]

used to talk about that 45 years ago as a riding instructor for beginners and more advanced courses

Topper;)

.
.Right.
Back 150 years ago before you were born, I used to etc blah blah. . . So there.
.

[Gremlin]

He was right, dead right, as he sped along. He was right, dead right, as if he were wrong...

[R650R]

Be careful I haven’t any spare money for flowers my grandmother would say.