RUC's for all road vehicles, this will be fun.

[jellywrestler]

Todays news they are dropping petrol tax and running a road user charge system
One wonders what process they will have for recording the initial mileage for this
One wonders how many will scream what about cyclists
One wonders how many speedos will come on the market for those who may want to fiddle with readings.

[F5 Dave]

Um. . . How much petrol tax are cyclists currently using?
(Asking for a friend).

[F5 Dave]

Disincentivices people moving to Diesil and Electric cars.

That said. Fast forward 20 years. What % of the fleet on the road will be Electric? What if none of them payed for road upkeep?

[F5 Dave]

". . . based on distance and weight"


Um actually this makes sense. MC are of little weight but are comparably fuel inefficient for their weight.
Damage goes up maybe not exponentially, but a lot for how heavy you are. So a truck causes significant damage. A bicycle none.

The whole article made good sense.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360782053/petrol-tax-getting-scrapped-road-user-charges-expand-all-vehicles-2027

I'm scared. :scratch:

[jim.cox]

". . . based on distance and weight"



I'm scared. :scratch:

And so you should be....

From today's Otago Daily Times

"The current RUC system is outdated. It's largely paper based, means people have to constantly monitor their odometers, and requires people to buy RUC in 1000km chunks," Bishop said.

"We're not going to shift millions of drivers from a simple system at the pump to queues at retailers. So, instead of expanding a clunky government system,
we will reform the rules to allow the market to deliver innovative, user-friendly services for drivers."


Yeah Right!

Jobs for our Mates you mean.
Plus added opportunity for ongoing corruption.
Not to mention the surveillance.
There are only about three or four players in the market.
They'll be loving this all the way to the Bank and DataCenter

Would you trust a Bishop?
.

[neels]

And boom, 1235 comments on a stuff article in less than half a day, nothing gets people going like the perception that it might cost them more to run their car.

There is some logic to this, in that the road tax you are charged for your vehicle should be reflective of it's effect on infrastructure.

If it is going to be equitable then there probably needs to be more distinction between light vehicles, with diesels presently I believe a 1000kg hatchback pays the same as a 3000kg large SUV, which seem a little distorted.

It's sort of implied that the vehicles they are really going after are the small hybrids which don't pay RUC but have stupidly good fuel economy, so there is presumably a corresponding reduction in tax revenue as their numbers increase.

For most other vehicles the fuel usage is likely to roughly track with weight with maybe a bit of variation where there are different engine options, but if the weight is the same the road tax should be the same, if you choose a bigger engine you've already decided to spend more on fuel but why should you be punished further with extra tax as well.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Royal Ulster Constabulary can get fucked.

[HenryDorsetCase]

There is some logic to this, in that the road tax you are charged for your vehicle should be reflective of it's effect on infrastructure.



This absolutely

[R650R]

Hate to say I told you so (across multiple threads) but here we are.

At least mowing the lawns, motocross and boating will be cheaper ;p

IÂ’d expect some form of digital drivers licence to be not far away either. Likely a small device will mount in your vehicle or operate via a phone app.

The bad thing is high speed runs are prob over. Eroad systems on trucks automatically email employers any instances of over speed.And also insurance companies will prob have access under guise of evidence collection. Most of these device also support a black box data record option also.

The best thing is Labour/Greens wonÂ’t be able to slap new taxes on fuel to pay for unfulfilled promises as public will go nuts.

Vehicle theft should be curtailed as all vehicles will be relocated at any time. This should have implications for other crime fighting tasks. If gang members thought patch ban was bad then wait til they get load of this.

The real beauty is itÂ’s a big reaming for all the smug virtue signalling EV owners who took a hand out from our tax dollars are now going to pay price for buying a heavier than needed vehicle. Ranger drivers be crying to as like diesel RUC it will be based on max weight capacity not actual weight.

[BMWST?]

EVs are already paying RUC. And the comment about minimum threshold on diesels is correct.All diesels pay the same rate from 0 to 3500kg .That put me off buying a 1.4 diesel many moons ago. RUC for EVs and light diesels is nearly 8 c a kilometre
My wife has a Toyota yaris hybrid. The bloody thing does 70-80 mpg (3.33-3.8 l per 100ks) She pays no RUC whereas PHEV vehicles do at approx 5 c a kilometer and pay fuel tax ..There is a loophole.
I dont know how they will do this as the current RUc system is a manual one. Its up to you to keep track of the mileage and to purchase the RUC online or at a VTNZ.Conversely there is no real means to keep track of RUC for the authorities,unless you happen to have a chat at a traffic stop.
I suspect this may be recorded at WOF time
The RUC takes a big chunk of change, ie you have to shell out nearly 800 bucks to buy 10000 ks of RUC(you save a small ammount on "admin").There will be a number of people who wont be able to purchase 10000 ks as they dont have any spare cash.

[Laava]

I dont know how they will do this as the current RUc system is a manual one. Its up to you to keep track of the mileage and to purchase the RUC online or at a VTNZ.Conversely there is no real means to keep track of RUC for the authorities,unless you happen to have a chat at a traffic stop.
I suspect this may be recorded at WOF time
The RUC takes a big chunk of change, ie you have to shell out nearly 800 bucks to buy 10000 ks of RUC(you save a small ammount on "admin").There will be a number of people who wont be able to purchase 10000 ks as they dont have any spare cash.
They have already introduced RUC in retrospect on EV's, so they are likely to be aware of many potential problems in putting a new system in place. Is it going to make my motorbike cheaper to run? Can't imagine it being cheaper for anyone. The RUC's will balance it out and is ALL tax being removed at the pump? I know that sounds cynical but history shows….

[rastuscat]

(Asking for a friend).

Most people don't have to ask for a friend. They just have them.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Um. . . How much petrol tax are cyclists currently using?
(Asking for a friend).


I feel so smug when I ride past you in your 4WD seething, dropping pie innards all over your lap while you try to text your bookie on your iPhone 4. I am saving the planet and you need to pull a $20 out of your wallet and give it to me as I ride past, like those dudes on the TdF with the water bottles. Thank you, we appreciate you.

[HenryDorsetCase]

They have already introduced RUC in retrospect on EV's, so they are likely to be aware of many potential problems in putting a new system in place. Is it going to make my motorbike cheaper to run? Can't imagine it being cheaper for anyone. The RUC's will balance it out and is ALL tax being removed at the pump? I know that sounds cynical but history shows….

It will still have GST in it which is 15% on top. So thats fun.

[F5 Dave]

I feel so smug when I ride past you in your 4WD seething, dropping pie innards all over your lap while you try to text your bookie on your iPhone 4. I am saving the planet and you need to pull a $20 out of your wallet and give it to me as I ride past, like those dudes on the TdF with the water bottles. Thank you, we appreciate you.
I used to occasionally drive a 4WD drovy up at dad's batch where it was kept for fishing. Had a holdem 202 in it, whatever that is. Didn't like going much over 50mph, which is the quaint measurement of speed it used.
Was easier to get to the hot pools than fussing with leathers there so we parked up for the night and took that.
Where were you? Could have been one of the constant bumps. Lights were courtesy of Joe Lucas so . . ,

[R650R]

EVs are already paying RUC. And the comment about minimum threshold on diesels is correct.All diesels pay the same rate from 0 to 3500kg .That put me off buying a 1.4 diesel many moons ago. RUC for EVs and light diesels is nearly 8 c a kilometre
My wife has a Toyota yaris hybrid. The bloody thing does 70-80 mpg (3.33-3.8 l per 100ks) She pays no RUC whereas PHEV vehicles do at approx 5 c a kilometer and pay fuel tax ..There is a loophole.
I dont know how they will do this as the current RUc system is a manual one. Its up to you to keep track of the mileage and to purchase the RUC online or at a VTNZ.Conversely there is no real means to keep track of RUC for the authorities,unless you happen to have a chat at a traffic stop.
I suspect this may be recorded at WOF time
The RUC takes a big chunk of change, ie you have to shell out nearly 800 bucks to buy 10000 ks of RUC(you save a small ammount on "admin").There will be a number of people who wont be able to purchase 10000 ks as they dont have any spare cash.

With modern technology I’d expect it to auto bill in real time prob for say each 100km of travel.
Haven’t bought RUC in awhile but think the 10,000 km one is prob buying a time based licence. Sure last Eroad unit had was auto buying 1000km blocks online as you covered x amount of distance.

I expect the only thing expensive in terms of large unexpected bills will be for non compliance to discourage any creative evasion efforts. Remember this is tax as govt gets very upset if it’s not paid.

I think we should rejoice in option of now being able to buy the gas guzzling 131 Harley or V8 car you wanted but couldn’t afford the fuel bill for. And maybe just maybe if caravans and boat trailers have to pay seperate RUC just like truck trailers do it will mean less of them on road.

[R650R]

https://nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-licences/

https://www.eroad.co.nz/products/ruc-compliance-eroad-autoruc/

[BMWST?]

They have already introduced RUC in retrospect on EV's, so they are likely to be aware of many potential problems in putting a new system in place. Is it going to make my motorbike cheaper to run? Can't imagine it being cheaper for anyone. The RUC's will balance it out and is ALL tax being removed at the pump? I know that sounds cynical but history shows….
the number of EVs in NZ is far more manageable than what they are proposing

[BMWST?]

With modern technology I’d expect it to auto bill in real time prob for say each 100km of travel.
Haven’t bought RUC in awhile but think the 10,000 km one is prob buying a time based licence. Sure last Eroad unit had was auto buying 1000km blocks online as you covered x amount of distance.

I expect the only thing expensive in terms of large unexpected bills will be for non compliance to discourage any creative evasion efforts. Remember this is tax as govt gets very upset if it’s not paid.

I think we should rejoice in option of now being able to buy the gas guzzling 131 Harley or V8 car you wanted but couldn’t afford the fuel bill for. And maybe just maybe if caravans and boat trailers have to pay seperate RUC just like truck trailers do it will mean less of them on road.
10,000 km is 10,000 km.Its how I buy my ruc...evrytime ,its not time based its 10,000 km

[nerrrd]

Hard to see how this will ever happen without massive cost blowouts and delays. If and when it does, no doubt we’ll have the same level of savings and service to look forward to as we currently enjoy from our electricity providers.

NZ doesn’t do complicated tax systems well, as evidenced by us charging GST on everything, unlike pretty much every other country with a value added tax that somehow manages to cope with exemptions that we couldn’t possibly entertain.

[rastuscat]

The biggest problem is the vacuum of information. Especially in regard to how it will be applied.

Leaving us all to speculate about how they will implement it, how we can minimise it, or even avoid it. It's going to be quite fun.

It's going to be a couple of years before most of these answers are available.

[pritch]

There will be a number of people who wont be able to purchase 10000 ks as they dont have any spare cash.

That number will be quite large I suspect. That was my first thought when I heard this on the news. Paying as you buy gas is painless - relatively.

Technology comes with glitches though, for example the handicapped vehicles getting parking fines because the system reads the plates but it doesn't read the disability card.

[rastuscat]

That number will be quite large I suspect. That was my first thought when I heard this on the news. Paying as you buy gas is painless - relatively.

Paying as you buy isn't quite so painless, when you realise that about 70 cents per litre is tax. The model is moving it from pay-per-purchase to post-paid, where people pay for what they have used.

The big thing the minister said appears to have been missed. He said that they are doing this because the overall tax take is reducing as cars become more fuel efficient, with hybrid technology, and even with smaller capacity twin turbos designed for fuel economy. My Golf 1.4 litre win turbo uses 4.8 - 5.1 l/100 km. My wifes Jeep uses 10.5 l/100. We don't use the Jeep much.

If the aim is to maintain or increase the overall tax take, there's only one way that can happen. Everyone pays more.

Well, actually, not everyone. Some people will be able to adapt their travel to minimise the RUC they pay. Anyone who can use public transport may do that. Anyone who can ride a bicycle might do that. Any trip that can be taken without incurring RUC will now be fair game. Of course, not everyone has that opportunity. But many do.

A couple of years of such speculation is going to be fun.

[JimO]

will those fancy plate recognition safety (ahem) cameras pick up people whose rucs are unpaid like their rego has lapsed and haven’t had a wof since 2008 even if they arnt speeding

[nerrrd]

If the aim is to maintain or increase the overall tax take, there's only one way that can happen. Everyone pays more.

Amen. But once the private providers are entrenched and turn themselves into a cartel, the existing petrol companys’ cartel use the opportunity to increase their margins, and the set up costs are paid back, I expect to be paying much more than the excise tax.

[rastuscat]

will those fancy plate recognition safety (ahem) cameras pick up people whose rucs are unpaid like their rego has lapsed and haven’t had a wof since 2008 even if they arnt speeding

Shameless self promotion about cameras.

https://www.compass.fm/listen?open=contentcompassfm.podbean.com%2Fae14121 7-34f4-368c-aba4-fdc9520d5492

Sorry.

[jellywrestler]

Disincentivices people moving to Diesil and Electric cars.

That said. Fast forward 20 years. What % of the fleet on the road will be Electric? What if none of them payed for road upkeep?

ev's and hybrids got RUC's a few months ago

[jellywrestler]

They have already introduced RUC in retrospect on EV's, so they are likely to be aware of many potential problems in putting a new system in place. Is it going to make my motorbike cheaper to run? Can't imagine it being cheaper for anyone.

for many here it will skyrocket, cause this system will show vehicles on the road and align the info with registration, it's been coming, they'll know you're riding driving an unregistered machine

[jellywrestler]

Paying as you buy isn't quite so painless, when you realise that about 70 cents per litre is tax. The model is moving it from pay-per-purchase to post-paid, where people pay for what they have used.

. my ruc's are purchased in advance, sometimes months worth so how come you think this new shit will be paid afterwards? it makes no sense

[nerrrd]

I’ve heard someone supposedly involved in the consultation process mention physical transponders being installed on vehicles, that’s going to open up a whole new can of worms.

[sugilite]

I’ve heard someone supposedly involved in the consultation process mention physical transponders being installed on vehicles, that’s going to open up a whole new can of worms.

Listening to Bishop talking last night, right at the end of the video it was clear to me that gps transponders could be the only way the system could work because he mentioned that the system would know what roads you were on and what time you were on said roads, which I took to mean they will bring in heavier rates for rush hour times for certain roads - and the only way they could possibly do that is gps transponders. (same goes for sending the bill laterz - transponders is the only way)
Which means the government will know exactly when and where you go and how long it took you to get there and how long you stayed - and what speed you were doing. Anyhoo, as people data is worth a lot of money, you can bet the government will absolutely be selling it to third parties - likely prioritizing their rich mates/donors. The fact Bishop says that only private providers could possibly provide a service like this is to me basically admitting his government is too incompetent to do the job they were elected to do.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The biggest problem is the vacuum of information. Especially in regard to how it will be applied.

Leaving us all to speculate about how they will implement it, how we can minimise it, or even avoid it. It's going to be quite fun.

It's going to be a couple of years before most of these answers are available.

number plates and rear view mirrors. optional extras for the weak minded. We libertarians have decided not to participate in any of that stuff.

[rastuscat]

number plates and rear view mirrors. optional extras for the weak minded. We libertarians have decided not to participate in any of that stuff.

I do rather envy the freedom I perceive that you libertarians have, when you are not running the library. :brick:

My reality is cognitive dissonance. I am just far too compliant for my own happiness.

Which is exactly what society relies on: that most opf us will grumble about things, but just get on with being complaint as it's less hassle than resisting.

Most people get a WoF, some don't. In the same way, most will just suck up whatever comes our way with RUC, and get on with it.

[jim.cox]

The fact Bishop says that only private providers could possibly provide a service like this

Marginally True, if we look at the history of such great systems successes like INCIS and IRD. But then Fujitsu did f*ck up the British Post Office so there is NO guarantee



is to me basically admitting his government is too incompetent to do the job they were elected to do.

Incompetent? Absolutely.
And no leadership what-so-ever

But they can still give their mates rich jobs and even richer data.
Palantir will be rubbing their hands at this one, eRoad is already in there and I'm sure the big four accounting companies will be hoping for a slice of consultant pie

[R650R]

I’ve heard someone supposedly involved in the consultation process mention physical transponders being installed on vehicles, that’s going to open up a whole new can of worms.

What problems do you see????

The technology tools are already well proven in other countries via electronic toll collection and anti theft trackers not to mention phone tracking apps like Strava.

Maybe related maybe not but my town getting brand new street lights again only 4-5 years after the others went in. There black instead of silver but have same additional sensor/trabsmitter/beacon??? on top of them….

[sugilite]

What problems do you see????

The technology tools are already well proven in other countries via electronic toll collection and anti theft trackers not to mention phone tracking apps like Strava.

Maybe related maybe not but my town getting brand new street lights again only 4-5 years after the others went in. There black instead of silver but have same additional sensor/trabsmitter/beacon??? on top of them….

I see plenty of problems with privacy, our data being sold. And every pollies wet dream will be along at some point - an immobilizer to go with the transponder. Have not paid a parking ticket in a timely manner, whammo immobilized and so on. Naturally they won't do that for civilian fines like from the small claims court, pollies only give a fuck if it is money for them to get their grubby mitts on.

[F5 Dave]

Strolled past Bishop on my lunchtime walk parked in his car.

Didn't knock on his window to ask silly questions but thinking of some now.

I saw on Stuff some AA mouthpiece stating the two winners are boat owners (true why do they pay for road upkeep?. Conversely who pays the expensive rescues?)
. . And multiple vehicle owners.

. . . because they will only pay for distance travelled, not when they fill up.:scratch:

. . . Oh dear. Bet he's regretting opening his dumbarse. But why did the journalist not question him and run the story making them look stoopid by association?

[nerrrd]

What problems do you see????

The technology tools are already well proven in other countries via electronic toll collection and anti theft trackers not to mention phone tracking apps like Strava.

Maybe related maybe not but my town getting brand new street lights again only 4-5 years after the others went in. There black instead of silver but have same additional sensor/trabsmitter/beacon??? on top of themÂ….

Ummm, just maintaining and storing an accurate, 24/7/365 data retrieval service for millions of individual vehicles in real time seems like a pretty big task, let alone keeping that system and data secure against hackers in the age of AI. Seems like a whole different order of difficulty to monitoring occasional toll road useage or thefts. And at what cost?

It all smacks of the government going to a bunch of IT consultants and asking “can you do this?” and them saying “sure we can, and would you like it to make you a cup of tea as well?”

If it were me, I wouldn’t give them a cent until they’ve got a system up and running and providing accurate, verifiable results.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I do rather envy the freedom I perceive that you libertarians have, when you are not running the library. :brick:

My reality is cognitive dissonance. I am just far too compliant for my own happiness.

Which is exactly what society relies on: that most opf us will grumble about things, but just get on with being complaint as it's less hassle than resisting.

Most people get a WoF, some don't. In the same way, most will just suck up whatever comes our way with RUC, and get on with it.

All you need is an American flag with a yellow fringe, and to mumble words like "corporation" and "living man"* and alltaxation is theft. stuff like that. Also dont be coming after me with that vaccine needle. Im happy over here having polio and diptheria and measles and meningococcus.

The thing with this is it will be just like the ACC changes. A lot (A LOT) of whinging and no action and your political class will run roughshod over it. I think it is time to share the greatest meme in the history of meme making.


*PS - its always a man.

[jim.cox]

If it were me, I wouldn’t give them a cent until they’ve got a system up and running and providing accurate, verifiable results.

eRoad do have a surveillance system that works right now

shares in them look good to me

but I'm probably too late for the insider trading

[R650R]

I see plenty of problems with privacy, our data being sold. And every pollies wet dream will be along at some point - an immobilizer to go with the transponder. Have not paid a parking ticket in a timely manner, whammo immobilized and so on. Naturally they won't do that for civilian fines like from the small claims court, pollies only give a fuck if it is money for them to get their grubby mitts on.

And just like that all us conspiracy theorists proven right aye????

Data/privacy, seriously there is none anymore except perhaps for the old age pensioner living in flat close to shops and paying cash for most things.
The rest of us long ago signed away our privacy by either not reading the terms and conditions of various online service providers or not being worried about it.
Don’t worry a bit more outcry about privacy and we get a digital ID system like the Chinese have.

I’m
No great fan of all that but the writings been on the wall for a long time. And the Covid experience showed how willing the general populace and businesses were willing to do anything the govt said was the new way of doing things.

[R650R]

Ummm, just maintaining and storing an accurate, 24/7/365 data retrieval service for millions of individual vehicles in real time seems like a pretty big task, let alone keeping that system and data secure against hackers in the age of AI. Seems like a whole different order of difficulty to monitoring occasional toll road useage or thefts. And at what cost?

It all smacks of the government going to a bunch of IT consultants and asking “can you do this?” and them saying “sure we can, and would you like it to make you a cup of tea as well?”

If it were me, I wouldn’t give them a cent until they’ve got a system up and running and providing accurate, verifiable results.

Data storage/AI is the oil boom/gold rush of our time. ALL of the technology to do this exists on the shelf and is easy. The Free Strava app accurately records pushbike rides on forest trails via phone for many years now.
A small dedicated device the size of a credit card maybe thicker for battery is all that will be needed.

Let’s not forget our local petrol retailers been pushing these phone based apps for petrol payment so you don’t have to go in store. Wouldn’t take much for APP to be expanded to include distance billing.Youd enter your odometer reading every time and rego like anyone whose used a company fuel card does.
That would provide a baseline reference at WOF time for compliance check. AI anslysis will uncover fraud and report rego for enforcement/investigation actions.

[jellywrestler]

I’ve heard someone supposedly involved in the consultation process mention physical transponders being installed on vehicles, that’s going to open up a whole new can of worms.

yip, for all of the riders whose bikes are on hold who will get a fright

[nerrrd]

It’s so easy, and yet no system currently exists that tracks a country’s entire national vehicle fleet (according to Google). Time will tell.

[sugilite]

It’s so easy, and yet no system currently exists that tracks a country’s entire national vehicle fleet (according to Google). Time will tell.

I acknowledge I may be missing your point, but this is a whole new system and what Bishop described simply cannot be done with out gps tracking.

[pete376403]

Strolled past Bishop on my lunchtime walk parked in his car.

Didn't knock on his window to ask silly questions but thinking of some now.

I saw on Stuff some AA mouthpiece stating the two winners are boat owners (true why do they pay for road upkeep?. Conversely who pays the expensive rescues?)
. . And multiple vehicle owners.

. . . because they will only pay for distance travelled, not when they fill up.:scratch:

. . . Oh dear. Bet he's regretting opening his dumbarse. But why did the journalist not question him and run the story making them look stoopid by association?

WRT to the road tax currently incorporated in petrol - I thought for off-highway use (ie boats) there was some provision for the road tax to be claimed back. This was evident by the number of boats being filled just before a price increase, whereupon the petrol would be drained from the boat and put in the car.

[Moi]

I can understand the reason for removing Fuel Excise Duty from the price paid at the pump for petrol - more efficient petrol engines, hybrids, PHEVs etc mean less FED paid into the road fund.

However, I have little faith in the current minister's ability to pull it off without stuffing it up completely especially as he seems to believe that technology will do it all. And that is not just the RUC that needs to be paid but whatever else he can think of to throw into the mix - road time charging, tolls, etc. Look at efficiently he has stuffed the construction industry by canning so many KO building projects.

I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle. Let's just have an easy to follow, easy to understand, easy to use process that deals with just RUC and nothing else. A bit like a prepaid debit card, something you do online and then have the e-receipt to show you have paid your required RUC.

And for those who say that there will be those who will abuse the system, you have severe penalities which will make the abuser's eyes water - instance impounding of the vehicle until owing RUC are paid plus the penality rate for late payment. I'm sure you get the idea. You not prepared to play the game you will be penalised.

[jellywrestler]

And for those who say that there will be those who will abuse the system, you have severe penalities which will make the abuser's eyes water - instance impounding of the vehicle until owing RUC are paid plus the penality rate for late payment. I'm sure you get the idea. You not prepared to play the game you will be penalised.

and yet they don't do that with un registered vehicles to date.

This is going to be tough on those who can't budget, having to pay big lumps will trip some people up for sure

[pritch]

Data storage/AI is the oil boom/gold rush of our time. ALL of the technology to do this exists on the shelf and is easy. The Free Strava app accurately records pushbike rides on forest trails via phone for many years now. .

Care with such tech is required. A secret CIA base in Africa was discovered when a bright Strava spot appeared. It was caused by the staff running laps around the base.

Privacy got several mentions on the news tonight. Politicians and others would not like the location of their vehicle recorded. Not if it would show them parked somewhere they should not be parked.

[rastuscat]

I can understand the reason for removing Fuel Excise Duty from the price paid at the pump for petrol - more efficient petrol engines, hybrids, PHEVs etc mean less FED paid into the road fund.

However, I have little faith in the current minister's ability to pull it off without stuffing it up completely especially as he seems to believe that technology will do it all. And that is not just the RUC that needs to be paid but whatever else he can think of to throw into the mix - road time charging, tolls, etc. Look at efficiently he has stuffed the construction industry by canning so many KO building projects.

I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle. Let's just have an easy to follow, easy to understand, easy to use process that deals with just RUC and nothing else. A bit like a prepaid debit card, something you do online and then have the e-receipt to show you have paid your required RUC.

And for those who say that there will be those who will abuse the system, you have severe penalities which will make the abuser's eyes water - instance impounding of the vehicle until owing RUC are paid plus the penality rate for late payment. I'm sure you get the idea. You not prepared to play the game you will be penalised.

Other countries have impoundment for various things, e.g. not having 3rd party insurance.

We aren't brave enough to do that, as it would adversely effect the economically under privileged. We lack the intestinal fortitude

[SaferRides]

50 posts already! Is that a KB record?

The Big Question surely is what will the rate be for motorcycles? Much less than cars if it's based on weight?

Sent from my SM-S938B using Tapatalk

[jellywrestler]

50 posts already! Is that a KB record?

The Big Question surely is what will the rate be for motorcycles? Much less than cars if it's based on weight?

Sent from my SM-S938B using Tapatalk

if the toll roads are anything to measure attitude by they will be the same as cars

[jellywrestler]

i've taken my bike in my van down south and too northland in the last 18 months, wonder how that will go for me next time too?

[nerrrd]

I acknowledge I may be missing your point, but this is a whole new system and what Bishop described simply cannot be done with out gps tracking.

I think I'm trying to say it's not so much the technology when it comes to government IT projects as the implementation, it never seems to happen as quickly or as easily as advertised. I guess Google and Apple track billions of people's phones on a daily basis, how hard can it be? Having said that when I look up my Google timeline, it's only seems to track positions, not the route taken between them, no experience with Apple...I've got no idea if that's relevant.

The 'National Ticketing Solution (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/567505/can-the-national-ticketing-project-get-back-on-track)' for public transport, as an example, seems to be a technological 'solution' which they're struggling to implement.

[SaferRides]

I think I'm trying to say it's not so much the technology when it comes to government IT projects as the implementation, it never seems to happen as quickly or as easily as advertised. I guess Google and Apple track billions of people's phones on a daily basis, how hard can it be? Having said that when I look up my Google timeline, it's only seems to track positions, not the route taken between them, no experience with Apple...I've got no idea if that's relevant.

The 'National Ticketing Solution (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/567505/can-the-national-ticketing-project-get-back-on-track)' for public transport, as an example, seems to be a technological 'solution' which they're struggling to implement.Exactly. Health can't even manage your complete medical records online, my GP couldn't find a recent specialist report last time I saw her.

Sent from my SM-S938B using Tapatalk

[F5 Dave]

I'll be selling special transponder cloaking technology for strategically reducing your footprint for a modest sum.

[Might look like a tinfoil hat you close up around it].

Send money and bitcoin to the usual address.

[HenryDorsetCase]

WRT to the road tax currently incorporated in petrol - I thought for off-highway use (ie boats) there was some provision for the road tax to be claimed back. This was evident by the number of boats being filled just before a price increase, whereupon the petrol would be drained from the boat and put in the car.

Sure that was a thing but it would be statistically insignificant IMO

[HenryDorsetCase]

50 posts already! Is that a KB record?

The Big Question surely is what will the rate be for motorcycles? Much less than cars if it's based on weight?

Sent from my SM-S938B using Tapatalk

With a rebate for every kilometer travelled on one wheel. Wheelies not only save you money on tyre wear but also on extra tax for driving. Plus it makes the transgender more efficient if it is pointing straight up in the air.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Other countries have impoundment for various things, e.g. not having 3rd party insurance.

We aren't brave enough to do that, as it would adversely effect the economically under privileged. We lack the intestinal fortitude

Conspiracy theory: ACC will be expanded to include third party insurance and added to registration fees. So we get extra tax there plus pay RUC's.

[rastuscat]

With a rebate for every kilometer travelled on one wheel. Wheelies not only save you money on tyre wear but also on extra tax for driving. Plus it makes the transgender more efficient if it is pointing straight up in the air.

Genius.

A data logger for recording how much time is spent with only one wheel on the road. Thus doing less damage.

Trouble is, scence would tend to suggest that the weight that is taken off the front wheel during a mono is simply transferred to the rear wheel.

Evel Knievel might get a discount for time spent with no wheels on the ground, but the EK rebate is unlikely to be widely used.

[sugilite]

I think I'm trying to say it's not so much the technology when it comes to government IT projects as the implementation, it never seems to happen as quickly or as easily as advertised. I guess Google and Apple track billions of people's phones on a daily basis, how hard can it be? Having said that when I look up my Google timeline, it's only seems to track positions, not the route taken between them, no experience with Apple...I've got no idea if that's relevant.

The 'National Ticketing Solution (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/567505/can-the-national-ticketing-project-get-back-on-track)' for public transport, as an example, seems to be a technological 'solution' which they're struggling to implement.

Ahhh, cheers for that. Funnily enough I spent 6 years working for GCS (Government Computing Services) during the time of the police incest system debacle, though I had nothing to do with it with me being a Network Controller. For every Government disaster IT project being reported, there were a lot more successful ones being implemented that were not reported.
However with that being said, as trucking firms have systems already in place that do this style of operation already - all the Government needs to do, is pick the best system already available and award that company the contract - then manage the contract with oversight. What "Man most voted to receive a custard pie to the face" Chis Bishop is proposing is to have multiple private companies with competing solutions to "vie" for our business. I'm sure none of them will be associated with nationals rich buddies, and that said companies wont price fix among each other while being largely out of reach of Government oversight - surely not Mr Bishop - right? :rolleyes:


With a rebate for every kilometer travelled on one wheel. Wheelies not only save you money on tyre wear but also on extra tax for driving. Plus it makes the transgender more efficient if it is pointing straight up in the air.
Officer, that was not a wheelie! That was a considerate erection - thus saving the road and fellow tax payers from unnecessary wear, tear & maintenance costs :innocent:

[jellywrestler]

Evel Knievel might get a discount for time spent with no wheels on the ground, but the EK rebate is unlikely to be widely used.

and when i travel with my bike in my van what happens then?

[BMWST?]

and when i travel with my bike in my van what happens then?

good point.A detail none the less. Same applies to cars getting towed and motorbikes being delivered. Double dipping could ensue

[JimO]

how about domestic/boat trailers , will they need hubodometers

[rastuscat]

and when i travel with my bike in my van what happens then?

My guess would be that as long as the bike isn't running in the back of your van, the GPS thingy won't be powered up, so won't be clocking miles.

Already trailers are exempt from petrol tax, as they don't take, um, petrol.

[rastuscat]

good point.A detail none the less. Same applies to cars getting towed and motorbikes being delivered. Double dipping could ensue

If the vehicle isn't powered up, the GPS logger won't be either. I would have thought.

[F5 Dave]

how about domestic/boat trailers , will they need hubodometers

Why did you even ask that? :facepalm:

[jellywrestler]

Why did you even ask that? :facepalm:

he was triggered, that's quite common these days

[nerrrd]

If the vehicle isn't powered up, the GPS logger won't be either. I would have thought.

How long will it take to install 3 million plus data loggers, I wonder. A good time to be an auto electrician, or will they allow DIY? Some kind of switch might come in handy. They’ll have to reference odometer readings for verification I guess.

[R650R]

How long will it take to install 3 million plus data loggers, I wonder. A good time to be an auto electrician, or will they allow DIY? Some kind of switch might come in handy. They’ll have to reference odometer readings for verification I guess.

A portion of our populace already has govt tracking devices installed on their ankles after making unwise lifestyle choices. I see some of them perusing the aisles at PaknSave, non of them are attached to a power supply.
I doubt many of them ever visited an auto electrician business and if they did it prob wasnt during business hours
Bishop let slip in the interview that newer cars slready have the tracking technology installed it’s just that we haven’t paid the fee to access it yet. That’s why we have those push button ignition systems where you’re requesting your car to start….
Enjoy your freedom folks while it lasts, never mind peak oil we’re running out of freedom before that happens.

[nerrrd]

A portion of our populace already has govt tracking devices installed on their ankles after making unwise lifestyle choices. I see some of them perusing the aisles at PaknSave, non of them are attached to a power supply.
I doubt many of them ever visited an auto electrician business and if they did it prob wasnt during business hours
Bishop let slip in the interview that newer cars slready have the tracking technology installed it’s just that we haven’t paid the fee to access it yet. That’s why we have those push button ignition systems where you’re requesting your car to start….
Enjoy your freedom folks while it lasts, never mind peak oil we’re running out of freedom before that happens.

Google says you have to charge your ankle monitor daily.

At least in a vehicle there's usually a cigarette lighter to plug into for power. Or even a usb port in all those fancy newer cars. Nothing on my 2021 Honda though. Oops, sorry officer, I must have knocked the plug out.

How accurate is the average odometer vs GPS? Might need some tolerance there. If they're using WOF mileage figures for reference, that's a possible data entry failure point. They'll need a credible error resolution process as well.

[Moi]

How long will it take to install 3 million plus data loggers, I wonder. A good time to be an auto electrician, or will they allow DIY? Some kind of switch might come in handy. They’ll have to reference odometer readings for verification I guess.

I wonder if they'll even go that way.

What are things you can do as a political party that will, almost, guarantee you'll not get to hold the treasury benches after the next election?

* talk too loudly about increasing the age for receiving National Super

and I'd suggest

* making every vehicle, particularly private mum and dad vehicles, will have a GPS tracker.

I suspect that if/when it happens it'll be a simple solution because anything that suggests government watching you too closely will be distasteful for many electors.

[JimO]

Why did you even ask that? :facepalm:

because i have seen mention of trailers being included

[pritch]

A portion of our populace already has govt tracking devices installed on their ankles after making unwise lifestyle choices. I see some of them perusing the aisles at PaknSave, non of them are attached to a power supply.
I doubt many of them ever visited an auto electrician business and if they did it prob wasnt during business hours
Bishop let slip in the interview that newer cars slready have the tracking technology installed it’s just that we haven’t paid the fee to access it yet.

On the TV item the required device was compared to an Apple air tag but it would presumably need to be connected to the cars battery.

You must live in a rougher neighbourhood than me. I just came across my first ankle monitor last year. He was an interesting character with a back story that was complete fiction, and he mentioned an anger management problem.

A year or two back a bike magazine contained an article that claimed some bikes now come equipped with tech roughly comparable to the black box in aircraft. Kawasaki were mentioned specifically. That could be embarrassing - and expensive if it became general knowledge.

[nerrrd]

On the TV item the required device was compared to an Apple air tag but it would presumably need to be connected to the cars battery.

I've been looking at the Eroad site (https://www.eroad.co.nz/solutions/asset-tracking/), seems there's a difference between knowing where something is at a single point in time and tracking something over time, the former can be a tiny battery powered thingumy like an Airtag, the latter looks like it's more involved and needs more power than that. Interesting that they don't publish pricing on their website.

[Laava]

This device sounds expensive! I might wrap mine in a lead sheet to protect it…

[jellywrestler]

On the TV item the required device was compared to an Apple air tag but it would presumably need to be connected to the cars battery.

that'll be the journalist making things up, trying to do some filming but no idea at all what it would look like most liekley

[BMWST?]

many many cars since at least 2018 will have a gps already fitted as standard,so thats half of the puzzle right there.Presumable the sub models of those cars will have a wiring loom which will accept a pigtail to power such a device.
But as someone has already stated there is a lot of work to fit these devices to every car in the NZ fleet. What happens in the meantime? Who will pay?

[sugilite]

Who will pay?

Hopefully national at the ballot box.
However, at the minimum, labour will need to do the following:
Ditch hipkins as leader, he is a proficient minister but a seriously weak leader.
Put forward well thought out and presented policies with robust plans of implementation. Including a better ruc policy than this one.

The ill advised, arrogant and worn out "just trust us" trope was on full display from hipkins last week when labour were accused of getting carried away with the money hose during covid. His response "No we didn't" was hardly a compelling rebuttal, and simply reminded us of how in their last term they spent most of the time sitting on their hands whilst wallowing in a quagmire of Ineffectiveness.

Wouldn't it be great if NZ voters had something better than the usual choice between either the shit sandwich or turd burger combos this election?

[nerrrd]

Maybe we’ll just end up with a slightly modified version of the existing system. Compliance could be a big issue either way, instead of petrol users subsidising others you’ll get the compliant vehicle owners subsidising the non-compliant, and all the associated costs with policing that. Non-compliance isn’t something the existing commercial GPS based systems with have had to deal with. Will these extra costs end up far outweighing any increase in revenue?

Or you could just increase the existing excise tax.*
* and RUCs.

[pritch]

I've been looking at the Eroad site (https://www.eroad.co.nz/solutions/asset-tracking/), seems there's a difference between knowing where something is at a single point in time and tracking something over time, the former can be a tiny battery powered thingumy like an Airtag, the latter looks like it's more involved and needs more power than that. Interesting that they don't publish pricing on their website.

It's the tracking something over time aspect that raises privacy issues. We can see why that would be a concern but I don't see how anyone else could access the device and its contents. A suspicious significant other excluded?

[R650R]

Hopefully national at the ballot box.
However, at the minimum, labour will need to do the following:
Ditch hipkins as leader, he is a proficient minister but a seriously weak leader.
Put forward well thought out and presented policies with robust plans of implementation. Including a better ruc policy than this one.

The ill advised, arrogant and worn out "just trust us" trope was on full display from hipkins last week when labour were accused of getting carried away with the money hose during covid. His response "No we didn't" was hardly a compelling rebuttal, and simply reminded us of how in their last term they spent most of the time sitting on their hands whilst wallowing in a quagmire of Ineffectiveness.

Wouldn't it be great if NZ voters had something better than the usual choice between either the shit sandwich or turd burger combos this election?

Just out of interest what’s your idea of a better RUC system? At least under National it’s going to be a simple vehicle weight and distance calculation. If labour bought this in it would have all sorts of fishhooks in system around engine size and prob still give EV owners unfair advantage.

[R650R]

With regard to compliance and mention of hubometers. Hub meters can be quite unreliable due to vibration they are subject to. Trucking operators often get a free ride here and there in a few trailers in the fleet.
As long as it’s not significant enforcement action isn’t usually cost effective.
You want to see how fast your boss moves though to replace one when you inform him it’s over reading which does happen too 😂🤣😂.

I’d say at WOF time a check will be made against odometer (very high reliability) and what the govt system says you have travelled. At a guess I reckon a generous 5% discrepancy will be allowed maybe more. Even then it would prob just flag you for extra attention initially at say a random breath test traffic stop.
Like fisheries or drug busts they will be after the big offenders first to make example.

The bonus for those that play off road or have a long driveway on rural property is you can claim
Back off highway miles automatically on eroad. That’s what gets a lot of truck companies onto Eroad. Once your on a large industrial site or quarry etc you’d be surprised how many kms ate done off road.

[jellywrestler]

With regard to compliance and mention of hubometers. Hub meters can be quite unreliable due to vibration they are subject to. Trucking operators often get a free ride here and there in a few trailers in the fleet..

the only reason they exist is that was the best they could do decades ago no sane person would consider them now and apart from single sided swingarms how will they ever fit on a bike?, or tidy looking on cars?

[nerrrd]

Odometers are already there, come up with a remote or automated system based on reading odometers and all the privacy concerns go away.

[neels]

How accurate is the average odometer vs GPS? Might need some tolerance there. If they're using WOF mileage figures for reference, that's a possible data entry failure point. They'll need a credible error resolution process as well.
The electronic RUC system does end up with differences, neither is perfect as gps distance measurement is dependent on time between data points, and odometers are measuring how far your wheels have actually travelled which also changes with tyre size and tyre wear.

Currently there is a process for I think correcting the electronic RUC machine to match the odometer, so you don't end up with a significant difference over time.


Compliance could be a big issue either way, instead of petrol users subsidising others you’ll get the compliant vehicle owners subsidising the non-compliant, and all the associated costs with policing that.


We already have that, for example couriers in 4 year old diesel vans with 40,000k on the odometer, who use a fuel card so there is a record of how many litres they've tipped into the thing. :facepalm:

[Moi]

I doubt if much will change before the next election. Chris Bishop's announcement was very thin on specifics - he'd have been better to have not said anything until there was a more definite plan forward. This government is very good on having announcementts to announce an upcoming announcement...

Anyhow, someone who has a light vehicle, ute or EV, that is on RUCs maybe able to answer this - ignoring HGVs in this question:

When you go to trade-in your vehicle, does the dealer check the RUC against the odometer?

[jellywrestler]

Odometers are already there, come up with a remote or automated system based on reading odometers and all the privacy concerns go away.

several of mine are proven to be up to 8% out, fucked if i want to be taxed another 8% charges cause of a shitty speedo,

[jellywrestler]

When you go to trade-in your vehicle, does the dealer check the RUC against the odometer?

why even ask that? any dealer would be a fool to not, it's like checking to see if there's any money oweing

[Moi]

why even ask that? any dealer would be a fool to not, it's like checking to see if there's any money oweing

So the present system for light vehicles is working, why change it?

[JimO]

Hopefully national at the ballot box.
However, at the minimum, labour will need to do the following:
Ditch hipkins as leader, he is a proficient minister but a seriously weak leader.
Put forward well thought out and presented policies with robust plans of implementation. Including a better ruc policy than this one.

The ill advised, arrogant and worn out "just trust us" trope was on full display from hipkins last week when labour were accused of getting carried away with the money hose during covid. His response "No we didn't" was hardly a compelling rebuttal, and simply reminded us of how in their last term they spent most of the time sitting on their hands whilst wallowing in a quagmire of Ineffectiveness.

Wouldn't it be great if NZ voters had something better than the usual choice between either the shit sandwich or turd burger combos this election?


labour will come tied to tpm and the greens and you can guarantee the greens will want to save the planet by eradicating cars from aortea so that will be a main coalition agreement

[BMWST?]

several of mine are proven to be up to 8% out, fucked if i want to be taxed another 8% charges cause of a shitty speedo,
speedo or odometer. I reckon the speedo error is "built in" but as far as I can tell my odometer is quite accurate. Time was the odometer 5km check on the highway was fairly common but not now My stand alone gps tells me my speedo is 5% out but the odometer seems accurate. My bult in GPS doesnt show the speed or distance travelled (Toyota not bike)

[jellywrestler]

So the present system for light vehicles is working, why change it?

how does a dealer checking mean it's working, i haven't even had a beer yet and confused?

[Moi]

how does a dealer checking mean it's working, i haven't even had a beer yet and confused?

OK, is the present system working?

Or, if not, then what needs to be done to it to make it work?

[jellywrestler]

OK, is the present system working?

Or, if not, then what needs to be done to it to make it work?

i've no idea, but they'll want a system people can't dodge, been driving a deisle for 20 years and cannot recall once RUC's being checked. Electronically will have flexibility, and you can bet they will be have thought this another tool in their toolbox to find unregistered vehicles
Whatever happened to the APNR set ups that popped up a handful of years ago, they came and went pretty quick, they would pick up status of vehicle and registered owner too

[Laava]

My mate in Brisbane told me they have ANPR in lots of locations and they ping for the cops if your car is unregistered, uninsured, whatever. And apparently the cops act on it as well. Queensland cops eh? So no idea how realistic that is. Cops seem pretty thin on the ground in my part of the country

[Moi]

i've no idea, but they'll want a system people can't dodge, been driving a deisle for 20 years and cannot recall once RUC's being checked. Electronically will have flexibility, and you can bet they will be have thought this another tool in their toolbox to find unregistered vehicles
Whatever happened to the APNR set ups that popped up a handful of years ago, they came and went pretty quick, they would pick up status of vehicle and registered owner too

And how will the electronically collected RUC have more flexibility?

As for finding unregistered vehicles, perhaps the answer is a dedicated traffic police. Though they must pick up a few when doing "blow-in-the-bag" checks, plus expired-CoF/WoF.

[HenryDorsetCase]

labour will come tied to tpm and the greens and you can guarantee the greens will want to save the planet by eradicating cars from aortea so that will be a main coalition agreement

and it will still be better than the shit show that is cluxy and his two extra arseholes

[BMWST?]

I have had deisels for a while now and I dont think its ever been checked. wether its checked at warrant time I cant say.
One time after a few trips away i realised that my RUC was way overdue so I bought two lots . There is a big label on your windscreen that shows the mileage that your ruc will expire at. All my liasons with "traffic" police have been random breath tests .They have never asked me what my odo reads.The label could have been 10000 kms under at one time. During the discount period i just kept buying my 10000 k blocks as required. My milege varys a lot. One trip i did was 2500ks in three days. The next few weeks i might only do 40km a week

[Gremlin]

When you go to trade-in your vehicle, does the dealer check the RUC against the odometer?
I can only say when RUC was being introduced for EVs, there was a 3 month introductory phase. The car went in for a service during this period, and the service operated on a traffic light system, green good (at the bottom), then orange (warnings) ahead of it and and the top of the report, red. The car didn't have RUC organised yet, this was flagged as missing.

Via the NZTA app, it tells me when RUC is paid up to, the brand app tells me what the odometer stands at currently. It is handy for checking you're good... from your couch.

As for bikes, I can't imagine they'll be nice enough to introduce a <1000kg class (or whatever weight), but any electronics that are mandated might suffer a hard life down rough roads...

[sugilite]

Just out of interest what’s your idea of a better RUC system? At least under National it’s going to be a simple vehicle weight and distance calculation. If labour bought this in it would have all sorts of fishhooks in system around engine size and prob still give EV owners unfair advantage.

There is fish hooks a plenty in nationals plan too.
However, in answer to you question - please consider my alternate ruc proposal.

How the charges get calculated and allocated.
For Motorcycles, Passenger Cars the RUC will be based on the manufacturers stated weight of vehicles.

The trickiest part to calculate is weight based RUC on goods vehicles such as trucks and vans. They can carry both small to very heavy loads at any given time. Their impact on the road could vary from hour to hour. Tracking that weight change is near impossible.
My thinking is all goods either arrive from overseas, or are manufactured here in New Zealand.
A way to create a system to handle the extremely complex mechanics of this without blowing out compliance hardware and operational costs massively is to use a tech solution called IOTA.
IOTA is a crypto based technology. It works very differently from traditional blockchain based crypto. In comparison, it has extremely energy efficient architecture with vastly expanded capabilities. Seriously large companies are investing in this tech right now.

At the point of arrival of said goods into NZ, or at the point of manufacture in NZ - Iota assigns ownership in a digital ledger recording details, such as manufacturer, weight etc The goods then get tracked through the entire transport chain allowing for transport companies to pass on the associated weight based RUC charges to the owner. The goods IOTA id/ownership gets passed over to the new owner upon arrival.
Thus RUC can be accurately applied to the true weight of the loaded truck/van through out it's journey, no matter how many carriers are involved in the chain. I will post more information on IOTA in a separate post below this one for those interested.

Tracking The Distance.
GPS transponders get wired into the electrical system of every existing powered vehicle over a one year period at the time of the vehicles next WOF/COF. The system is turned on after that one year period has been run and all installations have been completed.

The trackers are provided by the government, and the hardware and installation costs are to be spread across the first 2 years (or designated distance) of the vehicles existence within the RUC system itself – thus avoiding high one off initial costs to the end user.

ALL data other than the actual measured distance to be stripped out at the hardware (transponder itself) level before being sent to the contracted companies servers. If they want to charge higher congestion fees, then the location data is stripped out, just transmitting the distance traveled data at the higher rate for billing purposes. Similar in the way smart power meters charge peak and off peak usage rates.

An Independent oversight position to be set up to analyse and ensure all necessary data is indeed being stripped out and privacy levels are being maintained.. Their findings are publicly published every six months with zero interference from the government of the day. I do not feel it would be over the top for them be allocated ombudsmen style powers that actually have the teeth to ensure enforcement and compliance by the government.

The system is to be run by the company that wins the contract based on the best proposal, note I say best, not cheapest proposal. All aspects of the system as presented in the contract proposal must be met, and honoured. To avoid shitty budget overruns due to fraudulent under quoting the actual costs to gain the contract (think the roading company that underbid the transmission gully highway project) If that company cannot honour the contract at the stated price, then that company is sacked and fined the total costs of the contract monies allocated to them up to that point.

The Government owns said contract and provides oversight making sure the selected company is performing as per the contract conditions.

Allocation Of Gathered Funds

The overall tax take for road maintenance and so on must be worked out, and a target set. Initial RUC are worked out using the best data available to get the best possible estimate on what the RUC will need to be set at in order to meet that target.
If after a year that target was not reached, the RUC will need to be increased. If the target was exceeded, then the surplus should be refunded back to the end users in the form of a credit applied to the next bunch of RUC they purchase.

As motorcyclists we have seen the degradation of our roading system happening in front of our handle bars for years now. So we know that realistically the road maintenance budget must increase – and not by a small amount. There is no point putting in a system that lamely kicks that can down the road as successive governments have been doing to us for years now.

At the end of the day, I'm just a guy that loves rocks and riding motorcycles. I'm no gubbermant expert, thus I do know, that I don't know what I don't know. Thus if you are a KBer with experience in areas where you can easily see gaping holes in my logic, please consider rather than kicking me in the nuts internetz stylez, maybe use your knowledge to possibly offer a solution.

And after that, go on then - you may as well kick me in my internetz nutz as is the time honoured KB way. :laugh:

[Laava]

And how will the electronically collected RUC have more flexibility?

As for finding unregistered vehicles, perhaps the answer is a dedicated traffic police. Though they must pick up a few when doing "blow-in-the-bag" checks, plus expired-CoF/WoF.
Very very seldom you see wof/rego checks up here in northland. I have not personally been through one for at least 15 years. And the further north you go the dodgier the state of the vehicles on the road. So I think the cops know if they start confiscating all the unregistered or stolen cars, it will just lead to more car thefts.

[sugilite]

I will let chatgpt explain IOTA better than I ever could. (I did not use chatgpt in my post above for those wondering)

How it would work with IOTA
IOTA isn’t a blockchain; it uses the Tangle (a Directed Acyclic Graph) which allows for feeless, lightweight transactions — well suited for IoT and high-frequency tracking events.
1️⃣ Registering Ownership
You create a digital twin of the goods in IOTA’s ledger (via the IOTA Identity framework or a digital asset registry smart contract in Shimmer, IOTA’s staging network).
Metadata might include:
Unique identifier (serial number, RFID tag hash, QR code)
Product details
Current owner’s decentralised identifier (DID)
2️⃣ Tracking Through Transport
At each transport checkpoint, an IoT device or company’s system submits a signed IOTA transaction updating the asset’s status/location.
Because IOTA transactions are feeless, this can happen at high frequency without cost blowouts.
The Tangle ensures these updates are immutable and timestamped.
3️⃣ Transferring Ownership Upon Delivery
On successful delivery, the current owner (shipper) sends a transfer transaction on IOTA to the buyer’s DID.
This creates an immutable proof of handover — useful for audit trails, insurance claims, and anti-fraud.

Benefits
Feeless microtransactions → ideal for constant tracking updates.
Decentralised and immutable record of events.
IoT friendly → works well with sensors, GPS units, RFID scanners.
Programmable conditions → handover can be triggered by proof-of-delivery events.

Challenges
Tech adoption → Transport companies must have IOTA-enabled tracking devices or integrate with IOTA’s APIs.
Identity binding → You must reliably link physical goods to their digital twin (RFID, QR code, NFC tag, tamper-evident seals).
Legal recognition → While the ledger can prove ownership changes, legal systems in most countries require integration with traditional contracts or registries for enforceability.
Data privacy → If sensitive supply chain data is recorded, you’d likely need to encrypt payloads and share decryption keys selectively.

✅ Bottom line:
Yes — IOTA’s structure is particularly well-suited for this “register → track → transfer” workflow in supply chains. With the right IoT integration and legal frameworks, it could provide a trustless, automated proof of ownership and movement for goods in transit.

Sugilite here for a bit - This is the chatgpt suggestion as a Process For IOTA To Be Implemented....
This looks complicated, but just know that it would just require a few taps on a smartphone for all this to happen lightning fast electronically in the background.

1. Digital Twin & Asset Registration
- Define data fields for each product (serial number, batch, specs, etc.)
- Create a unique Decentralized Identifier (DID) for each product on IOTA
- Store metadata on the Tangle (immutable record)

2. Ownership Token Setup
- Create an NFT or native token on IOTA representing product ownership
- Link token to product DID
- Establish initial owner identity (KYC optional)

3. Transport Integration
- Ensure transport companies have IoT gateways or API integration to IOTA
- Equip goods with IoT trackers or QR/RFID/NFC tags
- Define update intervals for location, condition, and event logs

4. Transfer Protocol
- Set up smart contract or multi-signature logic for ownership transfer
- Define delivery verification method (digital signature, GPS geofence, QR scan)
- Automate transfer execution upon confirmation

5. Legal & Compliance
- Draft legal terms recognizing tokenized ownership
- Ensure contracts comply with relevant jurisdictions
- Define dispute resolution process

6. Auditing & History
- Enable read-only public or permissioned access to IOTA ledger records
- Implement analytics dashboard for tracking shipments and transfers
- Keep immutable proof of all transactions for audits

[rastuscat]

i've no idea, but they'll want a system people can't dodge, been driving a deisle for 20 years and cannot recall once RUC's being checked. Electronically will have flexibility, and you can bet they will be have thought this another tool in their toolbox to find unregistered vehicles
Whatever happened to the APNR set ups that popped up a handful of years ago, they came and went pretty quick, they would pick up status of vehicle and registered owner too

I was an ANPR instructor when I was in the job. It was very restricted, as to what it was allowed to detect.

It could alert to a vast range of things, all related to registered owner or vehicle status. The level of alert could be filtered.

Thing is, it was too efficient. Most alearts were turned off, as it was too hard to drive 200 metres down the road without alerting to something or other.

So all the less important things were turned off. Like expired WoF, licence label, and probably RUC. Mind you, I'm not sure electronic RUC was a thing back then. I've been out for over 10 years now.

Mostly it was used for disqualified, suspended drivers, stolen cars, or cars with a VOI (vehicle of interest) flag. Or people with a POI person of interest flag) . It could only alert to licence plates, but if the R/O was a POI, it would alert.

It could have done so much more than it was allowed to do, but logistically it was challenging. In terms of invasion of privacy, each day the plates scanned (it would scan and record every plate it went past) the records were deleted. So nobody could establish traffic patterns using those older ANPR systems.

Of course, the pace of electronic advancement means the systems are so much more powerful and capable now, and I can't speak to how they are being used.

[nerrrd]

There is fish hooks a plenty in nationals plan too.
However, in answer to you question - please consider my alternate ruc proposal…


All of that sounds great, if it can be implemented properly.

My natural scepticism has me questioning how easy it’ll be for such a data heavy solution to maintain a consistent level of accuracy (garbage in, garbage out), how competent the GPS installers messing around with your vehicle turn out to be, and what happens if the contractors don’t underquote as such, but promise a level of service that (it turns out, having not been done before) they’re not able to deliver.

[sugilite]

All of that sounds great, if it can be implemented properly.

My natural scepticism has me questioning how easy it’ll be for such a data heavy solution to maintain a consistent level of accuracy (garbage in, garbage out), how competent the GPS installers messing around with your vehicle turn out to be, and what happens if the contractors don’t underquote as such, but promise a level of service that (it turns out, having not been done before) they’re not able to deliver.

Cheers for the feedback. You are of course correct, it is data heavy compared to the current system. The main thing is all the tech and software requirements already exist and any modern solution one could use will be data heavy so to speak - well at least for goods vehicles - not really the data itself, more the careful set up and integration that would be required at start up. Cars and bikes data would be super light with most of the info being stripped before the transponder transmits. The way I suggest is about the most streamlined it could reasonably be (I feel). The transponders would just need power, and any workshop accredited to do wofs/cofs should be able to handle installation with ease. With IOTA being immutable (third parties cannot hack) any weight fudging at the point of data entry would soon be exposed by the freight companies. Because the tech and software already exists for this type of operation, any company worth their salt should be able to stick to the contract requirements, though I completely understand your reservations based on past roading contracts turning to over budget custard in NZ.

[FLUB]

Not sure if anyone has seen it but the AA are considering bikes for a change. In the Otago Times the AA has poked holes in the proposal because road damage is not done by cars, even heavier EVs, but by 8 ton plus trucks.

The AA Principle Policy Advisor, Terry Collins, goes on to say "changes should also be made to motorbike registrations as motorcyclists often owned several bikes, but could only ride one at a time yet made multiple ACC contributions when not on the road. By going to a distance based system it will be a much fairer way for them to make their contribution. So we think that would be a very good outcome".

Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

[neels]

The AA Principle Policy Advisor, Terry Collins, goes on to say "changes should also be made to motorbike registrations as motorcyclists often owned several bikes, but could only ride one at a time yet made multiple ACC contributions when not on the road. By going to a distance based system it will be a much fairer way for them to make their contribution. So we think that would be a very good outcome"
I think that argument has been made before, and the answer was that the ACC levy would increase per person, at present someone with multiple bikes that are licenced is effectively subsidising someone with only one bike, with the levy being based on total cost/x

In a discussion over the weekend a similar point was made with RUCs for people with multiple vehicles that are infrequently used, from the perspective of not wanting to end up with unused RUC distance on a vehicle that's sitting in the garage, and if the RUC could be applied to a person and used against whichever vehicle they were driving at the time. Or perhaps use the wife's car, so she gets the bill, if they move to a post-paid model.

[jellywrestler]

Not sure if anyone has seen it but the AA are considering bikes for a change. In the Otago Times the AA has poked holes in the proposal because road damage is not done by cars, even heavier EVs, but by 8 ton plus trucks.



by their presence they are using the road and often roads need making bigger to accomadate them so the money is to fund roading projects, as well as repairs.
As for only riding one bike at a time, why do people even quote that, the neighbour owns three bikes, i regularly see him his wife and kid out on a ride, with another kid on the back. If you think that's the answer then how will it be that one person registers all the houselhold bikes in one name, and spits that garbage out to anyone and everyone like a vegan crossfitter tells us they are a vegan crossfitter....

[R650R]

i've no idea, but they'll want a system people can't dodge, been driving a deisle for 20 years and cannot recall once RUC's being checked. Electronically will have flexibility, and you can bet they will be have thought this another tool in their toolbox to find unregistered vehicles
Whatever happened to the APNR set ups that popped up a handful of years ago, they came and went pretty quick, they would pick up status of vehicle and registered owner too

Some city councils NZ are now using ANPR cars for parking. They drive around taking photos of wheels in a digital version of tyre chalk to see if you’ve moved. I foresee a new business selling highballs that freespool in breeze of passing traffic :)

[R650R]

Sugilite that sounds a lot like how it will actually work except blockchain part isn’t needed.

In the last revamp of RUC overseen years ago maybe more the govt realised trucking companies couldn’t be trusted. It was cheaper to ahem accidently under buy the correct weight and just pay fines when actually caught.
So since then you pay RUC based on your maximum gross capacity (GVM).

A lot of Ranger owners will be rethinking that 3 ton towing capacity….

[sugilite]

Sugilite that sounds a lot like how it will actually work except blockchain part isn’t needed.

In the last revamp of RUC overseen years ago maybe more the govt realised trucking companies couldn’t be trusted. It was cheaper to ahem accidently under buy the correct weight and just pay fines when actually caught.
So since then you pay RUC based on your maximum gross capacity (GVM).

A lot of Ranger owners will be rethinking that 3 ton towing capacity….
Thanks for the feedback, gotcha on the blockchain comment, though I thought you would of thought a system charging for the actual weight you have on board would be a fairer way to do it?

National better do the privacy thing, but I suspect they will not as they want to both be nosy and sell everyone's data. And I also doubt they will set the budget for road maintenance to anywhere near where the level it will need to be. Also they want multiple companies with multiple solutions to vie for our business, read price fix and gouge. So actually, I feel the national proposed system and mine are quite far apart.

[Gremlin]

So since then you pay RUC based on your maximum gross capacity (GVM).

A lot of Ranger owners will be rethinking that 3 ton towing capacity….
Yes and no. Are you confusing GVM with GCM? Tow rating doesn't strictly come into GVM, but does work into things like GCM, and all the weights can be a bit variable depending on your current load (people get included in that).

Eg quick Google gave me 2022 Rangers (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/2022-ford-ranger-every-models-payload-gvm-and-gcm), and GVM maxed out at 3350kg. The max GVM under WOF is 3500kg - 3501kg is the next RUC class and COF required (plus 90kph speed limit in theory). It's a bit of a thing for me currently, as I want a bigger van, but want to stay within WOF, so I'm limited to 3500kg GVM.

GCM for them tops out around 6400kg. Class 1 allows for up to 6000kg (so you if you want to push the GCM to it's limit of 6400kg, you'd need a class 2). Side note that I don't think we see much enforcement here in Class 1? vs Aussie, where its a bit more common to check you're not exceeding your licence limits...

[R650R]

Yes and no. Are you confusing GVM with GCM? Tow rating doesn't strictly come into GVM, but does work into things like GCM, and all the weights can be a bit variable depending on your current load (people get included in that).

Eg quick Google gave me 2022 Rangers (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/2022-ford-ranger-every-models-payload-gvm-and-gcm), and GVM maxed out at 3350kg. The max GVM under WOF is 3500kg - 3501kg is the next RUC class and COF required (plus 90kph speed limit in theory). It's a bit of a thing for me currently, as I want a bigger van, but want to stay within WOF, so I'm limited to 3500kg GVM.

GCM for them tops out around 6400kg. Class 1 allows for up to 6000kg (so you if you want to push the GCM to it's limit of 6400kg, you'd need a class 2). Side note that I don't think we see much enforcement here in Class 1? vs Aussie, where its a bit more common to check you're not exceeding your licence limits...

I need a disclaimer on my signature, sweeping generalisations often used and Billy T style word replacements when I can’t find the correct big word lol
Yep enforcement lacking prob nothing at all to do with how many politicians, policemen and their friends enjoy towing large fishing boats on holiday trips.

[rastuscat]

I think that argument has been made before, and the answer was that the ACC levy would increase per person, at present someone with multiple bikes that are licenced is effectively subsidising someone with only one bike, with the levy being based on total cost/x

In a discussion over the weekend a similar point was made with RUCs for people with multiple vehicles that are infrequently used, from the perspective of not wanting to end up with unused RUC distance on a vehicle that's sitting in the garage, and if the RUC could be applied to a person and used against whichever vehicle they were driving at the time. Or perhaps use the wife's car, so she gets the bill, if they move to a post-paid model.

Yes, we tend to look at it from the point of view of the individual paying, wanting to reduce our personal cost. That's us. But the systems need to recover a certain amount of cost.

In the case of ACC, they aim to recover the cost of motorcycle related injuries. So if individuals pay less, or less individuals pay, the amount the remaining individuals who pay will have to pay more to maintain the overall level of cost recovery.

In the case of RUC, they want to recover the cost of building and maintaining roads. We each want to pay less, e.g. the under 1000 kg exemption suggested. Thing is, if the number of individuals who pay less increases, the overall take will decrease, and then overall rates will have to increase.

It's perfectly normal for individuals to ant to reucde their individual costs. But someone has to pay the collective bill.

The big questions are how to do reduce the overall cost of motorcycle injuries, and how do we reduce the overall cost of building and maintaining roads. That seems to have been lost in the mire.

[sugilite]

The big questions are how to do reduce the overall cost of motorcycle injuries, and how do we reduce the overall cost of building and maintaining roads. That seems to have been lost in the mire.

My feeling is that is is kinda odd that we have a system of laws which mandate helmets for head protection, but ignore that the rest of the body is also vulnerable (and expensive to fix up post accident).
One way to reduce the injuries cost would be to mandate CE approved Gloves, Jackets, Pants and boots be worn too.

After watching the never ending Haywards Hill road debacle going on for near a decade now, it is hard to believe there is not a whole lot more financial efficiency that could not be found in that entire industry.
I do wonder if it would not be a good idea to get the Marsden Point oil refinery back up and running? That way we at least we can provide our own bitumen again to improve the road surface over a wider range of our roads where bitumen would work best?

[BMWST?]

My feeling is that is is kinda odd that we have a system of laws which mandate helmets for head protection, but ignore that the rest of the body is also vulnerable (and expensive to fix up post accident).
One way to reduce the injuries cost would be to mandate CE approved Gloves, Jackets, Pants and boots be worn too.

After watching the never ending Haywards Hill road debacle going on for near a decade now, it is hard to believe there is not a whole lot more financial efficiency that could not be found in that entire industry.
I do wonder if it would not be a good idea to get the Marsden Point oil refinery back up and running? That way we at least we can provide our own bitumen again to improve the road surface over a wider range of our roads where bitumen would work best?

The Haywards Hill is a good example of bd planning or management imho. One of the reasons(if not the reason) was with transmission gulley there was going to be more traffic going over the hill. If that was the case then surely the whole Haywards project should have been finished when transmission gulley was finished. They are now starting to put in 2 new roundabouts there .It seemed to me that that whole job was done "part time"

[jellywrestler]

The Haywards Hill is a good example of bd planning or management imho. One of the reasons(if not the reason) was with transmission gulley there was going to be more traffic going over the hill. If that was the case then surely the whole Haywards project should have been finished when transmission gulley was finished. They are now starting to put in 2 new roundabouts there .It seemed to me that that whole job was done "part time"

6 years so far, when they reinstated the passed lane west to east and all the cheesecutters were up etc the cones sat there for another 2 1/2 weeks, why? seems like they couldn't run a bath. whats worse is at the hutt valley end when the traffic north on the motorway is at a standstill it gridlocks the haywards hill, and also stops southbound traffic in it's tracks, shit design

[SaferRides]

The Haywards Hill is a good example of bd planning or management imho. One of the reasons(if not the reason) was with transmission gulley there was going to be more traffic going over the hill. If that was the case then surely the whole Haywards project should have been finished when transmission gulley was finished. They are now starting to put in 2 new roundabouts there .It seemed to me that that whole job was done "part time"You are kidding me, I cannot believe it has not been finished by now! But Tauranga is hardly any better, God only knows when the whole Takatimu mess will be finished. They have been doing "enabling works" for at least this year.



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[rastuscat]

Wish I could find a way to say "I told you so", without saying "I told you so."

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/15VoXJCuEx/

This is a FB link, but it is a Bonnet analysis of the additional cost of the RUC programme.

The Minister did warn of this when he announced it. He said that it was due to decreasing income due to EVs and more efficient vehicles.

They need to collect more, and RUC is how.

[neels]

The Minister did warn of this when he announced it. He said that it was due to decreasing income due to EVs and more efficient vehicles.

They need to collect more, and RUC is how.

Interestingly, when you look at the income from the various government indirect taxes, it very much appears that to the end of 2024 Fuel excise and RUC income have sharply increased back to or higher than previously, presumably from the adding of RUC to EVs and removal of the fuel tax discount at the end of 2023. Don't think the June 2025 figures have been published yet, so there might be something nasty that they know about and we don't.

In short, the combined income from fuel excise and RUC has not significantly decreased, so the justification is bollocks. But you can be sure that when it's changed, the govt won't end up with less money.

What is notable is the decrease in tobacco excise tax income, when the anti-smoking campaigns work they have to replace that income from somewhere, and the increase in alcohol excise indicating it's driving us all to drink.

356520

[rastuscat]

Interestingly, when you look at the income from the various government indirect taxes, it very much appears that to the end of 2024 Fuel excise and RUC income have sharply increased back to or higher than previously, presumably from the adding of RUC to EVs and removal of the fuel tax discount at the end of 2023. Don't think the June 2025 figures have been published yet, so there might be something nasty that they know about and we don't.

In short, the combined income from fuel excise and RUC has not significantly decreased, so the justification is bollocks. But you can be sure that when it's changed, the govt won't end up with less money.


My guess is they are looking at the anticipated increases in the cost of building their pet project RONS. Somone has to pay, and inevitably, that's us.

The consultation on tolling is going on for the Woodend bypass and nearby Pineacres-Smith Street widening. The Electronic RUC thing is going to be a useful way for them to collect tolls.

[neels]

My guess is they are looking at the anticipated increases in the cost of building their pet project RONS. Somone has to pay, and inevitably, that's us.

So why not just say that they need more money for building more roads that people want, rather than telling porkies about decreasing income when evidently it's not.


The consultation on tolling is going on for the Woodend bypass and nearby Pineacres-Smith Street widening. The Electronic RUC thing is going to be a useful way for them to collect tolls.
What's interesting with that proposal is adding a toll point to the existing motorway section that already exists and is currently free to use, it's a legitimate concern that's been raised that people will rat run through Kaiapoi to avoid it, or continue to drive through Woodend rather than pay to use the new road defeating the purpose of building it.

[rastuscat]

So why not just say that they need more money for building more roads that people want, rather than telling porkies about decreasing income when evidently it's not.


What's interesting with that proposal is adding a toll point to the existing motorway section that already exists and is currently free to use, it's a legitimate concern that's been raised that people will rat run through Kaiapoi to avoid it, or continue to drive through Woodend rather than pay to use the new road defeating the purpose of building it.

They are expanding it to two lanes in each direction, so are going to toll it to pay for that.

Thing is, I suspect it is a ruse. They are consulting on it. I reckon they will drop that proposal (Pineacres to Smith Street) and toll the Pegasus to Pineacres.

That will allow them to say they counsulted, and listened to what people said. Cynical me.

[Moi]

So why not just say that they need more money for building more roads that people want, rather than telling porkies about decreasing income when evidently it's not.

Why, cause the minister ls a flounder...

When he appeared on the news saying the FED would be removed and replaced by RUC and in the next sentence said it would mean/need electronic collection and monthly bills then red flags and alarm bells should have begun ringing.

Those who go round saying we must have GPS enabled transponders are buying into the mis-truths. You only need GPS if you intend to track vehicles - if you have a fleet then that makes sense. If you are talking about Mum and Dad with two, maybe three cars, then why are you wanting to do that?

If you want to do tolls with e-tags you don't need GPS - you need a standard e-tag for the whole country and need to be honest about extending the toll system. They won't be honest because tolling is seen as an additional tax and in a time when the economy is not exactly bouyant.

And if you just want RUC then the current system would work. The licencing system works with labels, so the RUC system will also work - same number of vehicles for each. For those operating a fleet of vehicles then the present e-Roads or similar is their port of call. For those of us with a private vehicle or two then we just have to keep track of things. For those who say that's difficult, then just stay in the rest home.

[R650R]

For a long time in modern era we have had screams about equality.

Well folks this is what “equality” looks like even if it is coming from a right wing govt.
First you have another layer of beauracracy and enforcement but every single person will pay the SAME amount of tax to travel, that gorgeously fair isn’t it.
You wanted equality you got it.
Best of all travel will be slightly cheaper for the poor who mostly make short journeys where fuel efficiency is lower.
The wealthy who regularly drive long distance to holiday baches or rick concerts, rugby games etc they will pay the MOST travel tax.
A LOT of people on here should be happy about that!

[BMWST?]

I think that for those who till buy petrol keep the tax on it. Its virtually free to collect it like this. Then the RUC will only involve a fraction of the vehicle fleet
The upkeep required on the roads is probably fairly proportiaal to the fuel cosumption, They need to introduce ruc for hybrids and dial it back a bit for PHEV

[nerrrd]

Yes, there’s something else going on here if the existing system can be adjusted to suit.

A cynical person might imagine they see it as an opportunity to funnel public money into private hands. Remind me how much more efficient the private sector has been at building roads again?

[Moi]

Interesting...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxRmID0Aflc

[sugilite]

Yes, there’s something else going on here if the existing system can be adjusted to suit.

A cynical person might imagine they see it as an opportunity to funnel public money into private hands. Remind me how much more efficient the private sector has been at building roads again?

I'm still reveling in the cheap power bills the private sector have provided us.
Why, just yesterday - I was able to afford one of those fancy new European heaters for the house.

https://www.kitchenthings.co.nz/media/catalog/product/S/m/Smeg_Toaster___TSF02CRAU_2_7b74.jpeg?quality=80&bg-color=255,255,255&fit=bounds&height=597&width=597&canvas=597:597