Seminars for fun

[rastuscat]

I ran some seminar sessions at our Kickstart event yesterday.

Topics were


The quickest way to get a motorcycle licence
Lanes, lane splitting and filtering
Positioning


It never ceases to amaze me how little people actually know about the law, but who will claim to know it all.

The one I always ask a crowd is "What's the legal following distance at 50 kmh?". The answer I get is always the 2 second rule, but of course, that's not the law.

People are almost always surprised when I tell them the road code isn't the law, it's a collection of good driving/riding practices based on the written law, and a box of good ideas.

The lane splitting topic drew a wide range of questions, which makes me think there may be a need for better clarity on that.

[neels]

The one I always ask a crowd is "What's the legal following distance at 50 kmh?". The answer I get is always the 2 second rule, but of course, that's not the law.
At a sufficient distance that you can stop short of the vehicle in front. There is a stated distance, but that is the minimum without factoring in the performance of the particular vehicle you are driving, so there is more than one way to break the law.

Comes to mind as I was looking at this for an entirely unrelated reason, the land transport rule does specify the minimum distance for 50kmh but rather than answer here it's more fun for people to look at the legislation themselves, and realise that most people driving in traffic are not observing it <_<

[F5 Dave]

On unlined roads within 1/2 the distance visible. Thing that frightens me is my hill road is lined. So stop within distance visible.

But parked cars mean it is impossible to not travel some distance on the wrong side of the road. You can meet someone coming opposing you and hope they are following the 1/2 rule despite being laned.

It's safer on a bike clinging the side.

In my car i regularly drag off following cars around the right hand hairpin as I take a better line but I then come to a combination of left hand bends against a bank and car chicanes and they invariably catch up to me as they travel around as if they will never meet a mamal puffing his bicycle home from his resolution to get fit or indeed a car crossing over to avoid parked car..
I guess they can see the future, or at least through obstacles. Hoping for this superpower to kick in.

[pritch]

It never ceases to amaze me how little people actually know about the law, but who will claim to know it all.


That sadly includes the police. The Brit Youtube drone operators strike it all the time. Both from the public and the police. It's not surprising that NZ is similar.

Actually it's not just Britain. Some people anywhere seeing something new decide it must be illegal.

[rastuscat]

In summary it's 4 metres per 10 kmh up to 36 metres at 90 kmh, then 36 fir any speed above 90.

[rastuscat]

At a sufficient distance that you can stop short of the vehicle in front. There is a stated distance, but that is the minimum without factoring in the performance of the particular vehicle you are driving, so there is more than one way to break the law.

Comes to mind as I was looking at this for an entirely unrelated reason, the land transport rule does specify the minimum distance for 50kmh but rather than answer here it's more fun for people to look at the legislation themselves, and realise that most people driving in traffic are not observing it <_<

This too. Its a different section of the Rule, but equally applicable.

[Gremlin]

... and realise that most people driving in traffic are not observing it <_<
How else do you think we get 5 car pile ups? I don't get me started on the motorway patrol show, when the driver at fault says... I was driving, and the car in front, he suddenly stop! I have nowhere to go! Why is it my fault?

:facepalm:

[rastuscat]

How else do you think we get 5 car pile ups? I don't get me started on the motorway patrol show, when the driver at fault says... I was driving, and the car in front, he suddenly stop! I have nowhere to go! Why is it my fault?

:facepalm:

I recall a stat from the 90s when I did a short stint on Auckland Motorways, based at the Harbour Bridge office.

76% of crashes on the motorway are nose to tail. I would have thought it was higher.

[jellywrestler]

I recall a stat from the 90s when I did a short stint on Auckland Motorways, based at the Harbour Bridge office.

76% of crashes on the motorway are nose to tail. I would have thought it was higher.

bullshit, they are caused by alcohol and speed,

[BMWST?]

In summary it's 4 metres per 10 kmh up to 36 metres at 90 kmh, then 36 fir any speed above 90.

Is the "1 car length per 10km/h" in the road code?Thats what I recall as "the rule".In practie i try to observe the 2 second rule as a minimum

[rastuscat]

Is the "1 car length per 10km/h" in the road code?Thats what I recall as "the rule".In practie i try to observe the 2 second rule as a minimum

Here's the law.

5.9Stopping and following distances
(1)

A driver must not drive a vehicle in a lane marked on a road at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in the length of the lane that is visible to the driver.
(2)

A driver must not drive a vehicle on a road that is not marked in lanes at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in half the length of roadway that is visible to the driver.
(3)

A driver must not drive on a road a vehicle following behind another vehicle so that the driver cannot stop the driver’s vehicle short of the vehicle ahead if the vehicle ahead stops suddenly.
(4)

No driver may drive a motor vehicle on any road following behind another vehicle at a distance behind that vehicle of less than—
(a)
16 m, if his or her speed is 40 km an hour or more but less than 50 km an hour; or
(b)
20 m, if his or her speed is 50 km an hour or more but less than 60 km an hour; or
(c)
24 m, if his or her speed is 60 km an hour or more but less than 70 km an hour; or
(d)
28 m, if his or her speed is 70 km an hour or more but less than 80 km an hour; or
(e)
32 m, if his or her speed is 80 km an hour or more but less than 90 km an hour; or
(f)
36 m, if his or her speed is 90 km an hour or more.

And here's what the road code says.

https://nzta.govt.nz/roadcode/general-road-code/about-driving/key-driving-skills/following-distance

If you apply the 2 second rule, you arenalways further back than legally required. Which is a good idea.

Everyone can tell you the 2 second rule, but few actually apply it. And it only works if you actually apply it.

[Racing Dave]

Here's the law.

No driver may drive a motor vehicle on any road following behind another vehicle at a distance behind that vehicle of less than—
(a)
16 m, if his or her speed is 40 km an hour or more but less than 50 km an hour; or
(b)
20 m, if his or her speed is 50 km an hour or more but less than 60 km an hour; or
(c)
24 m, if his or her speed is 60 km an hour or more but less than 70 km an hour; or
(d)
28 m, if his or her speed is 70 km an hour or more but less than 80 km an hour; or
(e)
32 m, if his or her speed is 80 km an hour or more but less than 90 km an hour; or
(f)
36 m, if his or her speed is 90 km an hour or more..

Which clearly shows that whoever wrote the law has no actual knowledge of physics. The energy needed to be dissipated goes up with the square of the speed. The 'law' is for a linear increase.

It was stupid when I got my license in 1972 (although memory tells me that it was measured in 'car lengths' then) and it's still stupid now.

[SaferRides]

That sadly includes the police. The Brit Youtube drone operators strike it all the time. Both from the public and the police. It's not surprising that NZ is similar.

Actually it's not just Britain. Some people anywhere seeing something new decide it must be illegal.And not just the LTA but also the law in general.

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[rastuscat]

And not just the LTA but also the law in general.

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It's pretty hard to every cop to know every law in detail. Those who specalise into road policing often become specialists.

Those who just rotate through road policing as part of career progression often think they know it all, but actually don't.

[R650R]

How else do you think we get 5 car pile ups? I don't get me started on the motorway patrol show, when the driver at fault says... I was driving, and the car in front, he suddenly stop! I have nowhere to go! Why is it my fault?

:facepalm:

I’ve been hit from behind three times while operating truck, motorbike and car. Each time following distance wasn’t an issue, it was failing to pay attention. In fact I wish they were actually tailgating me as the speed differential on impact would have been less.
Yes a lot of what you mention is caused by no stopping distance but it’s wasted if the driver is paying attention to start with

[pritch]

It's pretty hard to every cop to know every law in detail. Those who specalise into road policing often become specialists.

Those who just rotate through road policing as part of career progression often think they know it all, but actually don't.

A former TO of my acquaintance was somewhat unhappy after the merger of traffic with police. He said prior to the merger he took his car home at night so he was working until he pulled into his drive. In the morning he was working from the time he pulled out of the drive. During the day he'd write his reports as events took place. After the merger there was no taking his car home so there was about an hour lost with briefings and admin etc each morning. The sergeant wouldn't accept handwritten reports so at the end of the day he had to go back to the office early and type up his record of the day. More time lost.

He also mentioned that the TOs knew the law and dealt with it on the spot. Non specialists need to seek the guidance of senior staff.

[BMWST?]

I’ve been hit from behind three times while operating truck, motorbike and car. Each time following distance wasn’t an issue, it was failing to pay attention. In fact I wish they were actually tailgating me as the speed differential on impact would have been less.
Yes a lot of what you mention is caused by no stopping distance but it’s wasted if the driver is paying attention to start with
Yes to this.
Was on the Wellington Motorway in the Aotea Quay part where it is 4 lanes wide heading north (just after the on ramp by the ferries).There may have been road works on the left . Something on the left was causing problems,I could see brake lights going on way ahead. The two cars to my left were blissfully unaware. I had already started to brake and move into the far right lane to give the people to my left room to come right. Everything was coming to a halt. AFTER i was virtually stopped I was hit hard from behind even though I had come to a stop quite slowly .The two cars to my left had tail ended the cars ahead too. I could see it all happening but these three were oblivious to what was happening. I was in my old BMW 535 car,which had a broken tail light and a slightly distorted rear end.(the boot still opened and closed) The Mitsubishi was a steaming wreck .

[rastuscat]

A former TO of my acquaintance was somewhat unhappy after the merger of traffic with police. He said prior to the merger he took his car home at night so he was working until he pulled into his drive. In the morning he was working from the time he pulled out of the drive. During the day he'd write his reports as events took place. After the merger there was no taking his car home so there was about an hour lost with briefings and admin etc each morning. The sergeant wouldn't accept handwritten reports so at the end of the day he had to go back to the office early and type up his record of the day. More time lost.

He also mentioned that the TOs knew the law and dealt with it on the spot. Non specialists need to seek the guidance of senior staff.

This.

And the fact that we used to look after our vehicles far better, we took pride on them. Some still do, but pooled vehicles rarely get looked after as well as assigned vehicles.

Ironically I left as I felt that they had lost their way with road safety. It took me a long time to come to that realisation, but it was reinforced when I left by the crest I was presented with distinguishing between road policing and road safety.

[SaferRides]

Yes to this.
Was on the Wellington Motorway in the Aotea Quay part where it is 4 lanes wide heading north (just after the on ramp by the ferries).There may have been road works on the left . Something on the left was causing problems,I could see brake lights going on way ahead. The two cars to my left were blissfully unaware. I had already started to brake and move into the far right lane to give the people to my left room to come right. Everything was coming to a halt. AFTER i was virtually stopped I was hit hard from behind even though I had come to a stop quite slowly .The two cars to my left had tail ended the cars ahead too. I could see it all happening but these three were oblivious to what was happening. I was in my old BMW 535 car,which had a broken tail light and a slightly distorted rear end.(the boot still opened and closed) The Mitsubishi was a steaming wreck .The most dangerous part of my weekend rides are probably the Auckland motorways. Not because an accident is likely, but because if one happened it could end very badly for me. So I try to make sure I have an escape route and always leave a decent gap to the vehicle in front

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