The "didn't see you" idea

[vtec]

I've had a thought, and this comes up often. I always hear people's saying that they don't see motorbikes, and I've had experience of people taking me out, so I know how it works.

Here's my thought. I feel that they most often do see the bikes, but they just either don't register them as part of the traffic in their brains, or they can't judge our speed and treat us like bicycle's cause we are smaller. I reckon that its just a subconscious thing that goes on in people's heads. As we all know most of the time you are driving, its done subconsciously.

So what do you guys think? Do they see us but just (badly) misjudge the situation, or just not see us at all?

P.S. I've found riding bicycles people are way more likely to cut you off or try to take you out than on a motorbike, cause they are smaller again.

[M1CRO]

...Do they see us but just (badly) misjudge the situation, or ...

I think the old saying is "Might is right" (or something like that). If your NOT BIG then you are no threat - so yeah, I vote for "misjudge" :whistle:

[inlinefour]

I think that we live in a rights based society, where responsibility is forgotten or not considered important. I think they see us allright, have to do a sight test to get a licience. They just believe that their "right" to do something outweights anyone elses' "right", irrelevant of what they law might say of the situation. :weird:

[vtec]

My point for starting this thread, is that it feels like they are shifting blame back onto you when they use the "didn't see you" theory, and I think that's the only reason why they say it... most of the time. They'll use that excuse in every crash.

[DemonWolf]

Think Inlinefour is on to something here... Though it goes further than that.. the 'Didn't see you' is more likely 'I badly misjudged the situation and thought I could get through' .... People generally do not like admitting to their faults.. and the 'I didn't see you' shifts the blame off them... Yet they know that if they were in the wrong that they were actually in the wrong. Its just people do not own up to their responsibilities in this society... and yeah I'm as sure hell as guilty of that.

[Lou Girardin]

I didn't see you really means I didn't look properly.
Like the import who possibly saw the truck turning right next to me, but I didn't register. She couldn't have looked very hard though, because I watched her as she came into view and pulled out in front of me. She didn't look to her right once. She did look when she got an earfull of horn from a metre away though.

[Mental Trousers]

A few years back when me and a 2 others cobbled together a driving simulator for the Psych Department, one of the studies done was on this exact problem. They found that drivers do see motorcycles, but they don't recognize them as something to watch out for.

From memory, the reason was something to do with a motorcycle not being large enough to pose a serious threat to the driver combined with the riders head and face being covered by a helmet, the driver doesn't recognize the rider as being an actual person to watch out for.

For instance, a car is large and poses a serious threat to the drivers health and therefore they acknowledge it. Also, a person on a bicycle is recognised as being a person because the driver can see the cyclists head (even with a stack hat on) and therefore needs to be avoided so theres no injury to that person.

[FlyingDutchMan]

I recently got me a cage (I hate the damn thing!), and I've noticed it is really hard to be concious of everything on the road - its like it puts your brain to sleep, not to mention how much harder it is to see out with the damn pillars and restrictive seating. It takes serious concentration to be anywhere near as aware of things than it does on the bike.

[F5 Dave]

Further tests as MT above mentions (‘scientific studies have shown. . .’, love that :niceone: ) made the same conclusion. People noticed a motorbike before a bicycle, a car before a bike, a truck before a car

. . . & above all a cop mounted on a motorcycle. :Police: He obviously posed the biggest perceived threat.

So they see you, they just don’t fear you.

[Beemer]

I think it's a combination of more than one thing - firstly a bike is smaller than a car, so they look for a car-sized object when they check to see if anything is coming and often a bike just doesn't register with them. Secondly, a bike isn't threatening like a truck, so if they don't perceive you as a threat, they tend to not worry about pulling out in front of you. It may be that they think "bike" and view it the same way as a pushbike - which definitely isn't a threat to them. And sometimes they bloody well did see you but figured they could beat you. When you hit them, they figured the easiest thing to do is claim they didn't see you, then it somehow won't be their fault.

And the other option is, they are fuckwits!

[F5 Dave]

Scientific studies have shown. . that people are fuckwits.
Has a nice ring.

[snuffles]

I believe in making myself as visible as possible, mounted additional spots under the main light and ride with High beam on all the time, also wear bloody bright rflecto jacket when riding alone or at night.

I'm a fairly big guy on a big bike, I'm just waiting for the shit head who knocks me off to say " I didnt see you "................ I will then be forced to insert whats left of the Bandit up his arse, hot bits first.

[Motu]

How many threads are we going to start on this one - there was one yesterday,one today - who want's to start tomorrows one?

Buy a big block Harley,get a Nazi helmet and get the missus to make you a Headhunter patch on her Jemone - then see if the car driver sees you as a ''significant threat''...

[Lou Girardin]

If they don't fear us, it can be fixed.

[Korea]

]...not to mention how much harder it is to see out with the damn pillars and restrictive seating. It takes serious concentration to be anywhere near as aware of things than it does on the bike.
So true... Riders enjoy a much greater degree of peripheral vision than cars - they don't have a bloody great big pillar blocking their view to either side.
Also, a rider scans further up the road, left, right, eyes scanning for the next threat that wants to run them off the side of the street.
Plenty of car drivers just switch-off behind the wheel like they're at a drive-in movie. KBer's with cars excepted of course! :niceone:

[WRT]

Buy a big block Harley,get a Nazi helmet and get the missus to make you a Headhunter patch on her Jemone - then see if the car driver sees you as a ''significant threat''...

Problem solved . . .

<img src="http://www.classictrailers.co.uk/images/arniebike.jpg">

[Motu]

Too Right!...

Sportsbike riders appear insignificant to car brivers because they are insignificant - just multicoloured parrots.You want respect - you gotta earn it!

[Mental Trousers]

.... it feels like they are shifting blame back onto you when they use the "didn't see you" theory.....

If you look at things from a different angle, ALL cage drivers are morons and can't be trusted to look out for your safety. Therefore, you are solely responsible for your own safety on the road and if you get into an accident with a car then it's entirely your fault because you didn't take into account that the driver is a farken moron and compensate for that.

[Waylander]

I say they see us but just don't give a fuck.

[Sparky Mark]

If you look at things from a different angle, ALL cage drivers are morons and can't be trusted to look out for your safety. Therefore, you are solely responsible for your own safety on the road and if you get into an accident with a car then it's entirely your fault because you didn't take into account that the driver is a farken moron and compensate for that.

Mate, there's potentially the essence of biking. :not: Whether you meant it in that way I dont' care... Green bling to you anyway my friend! because it's meant something to me.

Look out for YOURSELF and be bloody careful. If you're slipping through traffic and someone pulls out who's fault REALLY is it?
How many of us are actually honest enough to say, "I really did take all precautions to ensure I was seen, and ensure my own safety"?

Go on tempt me.. :argh:

Personally, in my honesty, every single ride I make, at some point has me thinking 'Have they seen me? What's the worst thing that could happen if they haven't? Well, I'll go for it anyway.'

Could be undertaking or simply lane splitting.
That means to me, that I'm PUTTING MYSELF AT RISK, otherwise I'd be sitting in traffic like everyone else.

PLEASE get real people. Most of us drive cars as well but are we all saints?

BOLLOCKS NO! We will all pertain to to be aware of bikes and far more aware of our surroundings, which is largely true because we experience being exposed, however, what about those who've never been on a bike? Its not law that everyone should. But its fact, and we all know deep down, that sometimes YOU DON'T SEE BIKES!!!
I've been riding for 25 years and I'm as guilty as anyone for putting my own life in danger.
I'm guilty of not paying enough attention when driving in a car, taking chances with enough prior knowledge on bikes, and I've experienced 1 and a half months of sleeping upright because of broken bones caused by something that was completely not my fault.

For gods sake stop blaming everyone else and take a fucking look in the mirror. I love biking, I love the community here and the spirit, but I hate the 'holier than thou' attitude sometimes!!

Sorry if I've offended anyone but this site allows freedom of speech... doesnt' it?.... :done:

[Drum]

Waylander may have something. Sometimes you can almost see the thoughts going through their heads as they look right at you and inch forward! Should I? Did I pay my insurance? He would come off second best. Yeah what the Fuck. Lets go.

One thing though. Dont take it personally. This behaviour is not only directed at bikes. I drive a cage too, and it happens to me all the time. Its the "Im doing what I want, and they'll have to get outta my way" attitude.

From a scientific point of view, when a vehicle is coming towards you at a right angle your brain computes its speed (and thus the risk of conflict) by noting the rate of change of its size (i.e. it gets bigger as it gets closer). The brain is better at making this calculation for slow moving vehilces and large vehicles.

Is your bike either of these?

[SlowHand]

WRT - I see your Terminator, and raise you the governor.

And I was trying to find the Yakuza pics off Kill Bill but I suck. You know, black bikes with a samurai sword attached

[Drum]

From the "Roadcode for Motorcyclists":

If another vehicle can enter your path, what should you assume?

A. That the driver will see you and keep out of the way.
B. That the driver will take whatever action is neccessary to avoid a crash.
C. That the vehicle will enter your path.

[madmal64]

Look out for YOURSELF and be bloody careful. If you're slipping through traffic and someone pulls out who's fault REALLY is it?
How many of us are actually honest enough to say, "I really did take all precautions to ensure I was seen, and ensure my own safety"?



I have to agree with you Mark and yes it is up to us as individuals to keep ourselves as safe as possible. Filtering through traffic and undertaking etc I do with extreme caution as I expect that they have NOT seen me and I am prepared as well as I can for this situation.

I however cannot understand how a cage driver can rear end me at a set of traffic lights which I am stopped at with my bloody big brake light on an be told that she didnt see me. :crazy:
In this instance I was stopped at a red light I was the only vehicle in the lane and I get hit from behind. I ride with lights on and because this set of light is on a slope I also had my brake on so also a brake light on. Reflectorised Jacket and a bright red helmet. Short of a high vis vest I think I make myself a visible as possible.

I expect not to be seen and like you I try to what I call calculate the risk while Im out there.

[Sparky Mark]

Too Right!...

Sportsbike riders appear insignificant to car brivers because they are insignificant - just multicoloured parrots.You want respect - you gotta earn it!

So what's that supposed to mean? or Have I missed something...???

[Sparky Mark]

I have to agree with you Mark and yes it is up to us as individuals to keep ourselves as safe as possible. Filtering through traffic and undertaking etc I do with extreme caution as I expect that they have NOT seen me and I am prepared as well as I can for this situation.

I however cannot understand how a cage driver can rear end me at a set of traffic lights which I am stopped at with my bloody big brake light on an be told that she didnt see me. :crazy:
In this instance I was stopped at a red light I was the only vehicle in the lane and I get hit from behind. I ride with lights on and because this set of light is on a slope I also had my brake on so also a brake light on. Reflectorised Jacket and a bright red helmet. Short of a high vis vest I think I make myself a visible as possible.

I expect not to be seen and like you I try to what I call calculate the risk while Im out there.

Hey Mal, fair call mate.
I was really generalising, not trying to 'dis' anyones experiences. Your experience is one of those shit times when there's nothing you can do about it, as was mine.
Thanks for your comment about being cautious and safe. I think it's honesty thats sometimes the issue here!

[vtec]

Hey Sparky, just so you know, I was neither filtering nor misbehaving when I had my "experiences", for clearer explanations of my personal incidents go.... here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=391912&postcount=20
My point is that I find when I'm driving aggressively lane splitting and stuff, I feel safer than if I'm just going with the traffic, cause I have to watch out for everyone that I'm overtaking, rather than relying on them having to watch out for me. However, both my incidents happened when riding relaxed, and pretty much both came out of the blue, the one on the roundabout... well that roundabout is nuts, and you can't allow for every possibility, cause with the number of cars on it, you have to rely on at least a few of them to behave normally, but this one still managed to catch me. I've been riding for about 4 years now and driving for 8 so I've definitely learnt how to watch out for most hazards, but they can still catch you even if you think you are expecting the unexpected.

[Sparky Mark]

Hey Sparky, just so you know, I was neither filtering nor misbehaving when I had my "experiences", for clearer explanations of my personal incidents go.... here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=391912&postcount=20
My point is that I find when I'm driving aggressively lane splitting and stuff, I feel safer than if I'm just going with the traffic, cause I have to watch out for everyone that I'm overtaking, rather than relying on them having to watch out for me. However, both my incidents happened when riding relaxed, and pretty much both came out of the blue, the one on the roundabout... well that roundabout is nuts, and you can't allow for every possibility, cause with the number of cars on it, you have to rely on at least a few of them to behave normally, but this one still managed to catch me. I've been riding for about 4 years now and driving for 8 so I've definitely learnt how to watch out for most hazards, but they can still catch you even if you think you are expecting the unexpected.

VTEC, Perfectly good point mate. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do- actually did you take note of the crystal ball before you left? Hmmm? :mellow:

Well either way, the way I see it, and it really is my humble opinion, we can all put ourselves at risk everyday. We sometimes fail to realise that because WE know where we are and where we are going that everyone else does. Yet
we are very quick to blame others when something goes wrong. We can blame all cage drivers for not seeing us when I know for a fact I've not seen bikes sometimes when they come up so fast between mirror checks.. and I also know that when I'm filtering sometimes, they've not seen me. The thing is, I know that I'm taking a chance.

Is that why, subconciously I always feel beter when filtering behind someone else- aren't they really taking most of the risk...?

[sunhuntin]

when the woman that hit me came over, the first thing she said was "i didnt see the motorbike" and i gotta admit, it did feel like she was returning the blame to me, and my first thought was "sure lady" but i somehow managed to avoid saying it out loud.

maybe we could ask car drivers what we could do to make ourselves more visible?

[Mental Trousers]

Mate, there's potentially the essence of biking. :not: Whether you meant it in that way I dont' care... Green bling to you anyway my friend! because it's meant something to me.

That's exactly what I meant mate, thanks.

My attitude on a bike is the same as for the rest of life - I look after me and don't rely on anyone else at all. Well, within limits of course. But I'm a very self reliant person anyway. Getting on a bike just magnifies that particular character trait.

[Mental Trousers]

I however cannot understand how a cage driver can rear end me at a set of traffic lights which I am stopped at with my bloody big brake light on an be told that she didnt see me. :crazy:
In this instance I was stopped at a red light I was the only vehicle in the lane and I get hit from behind. I ride with lights on and because this set of light is on a slope I also had my brake on so also a brake light on. Reflectorised Jacket and a bright red helmet. Short of a high vis vest I think I make myself a visible as possible.

Whats happening behind you is equally as important as whats happening in front of you. At lights I make sure I have escape routes - even it's "dash to the left and up the gutter onto the footpath" or "the gap between the 2 stationary cars" or something like that. I leave a minimum of 2-3 bike lengths between myself and the car in front and am far more alert to anything behind me than I would be if I walked into a gay bar.

A little story: I was heading over the Mamaku's one time having a nice little ride and getting along at about 140kph on one of the quicker parts. Just me and no other traffic around when all of a sudden alarm bells started going off inside my head. 2 seconds later a bright red Ford Probe absolutely blitzed me. At a guess he was doing an easy 210kph.

The point of that little story is that even at 140kph when I wouldn't expect anything to come up behind me, I was still aware of something back there and that it was a real danger. I didn't know what, but at least alarm bells went off in my head. And that is something that pleases me very much.

[Waylander]

when the woman that hit me came over, the first thing she said was "i didnt see the motorbike" and i gotta admit, it did feel like she was returning the blame to me, and my first thought was "sure lady" but i somehow managed to avoid saying it out loud.

maybe we could ask car drivers what we could do to make ourselves more visible?
And they will respond with, "drive a car"

[sunhuntin]

true enough, waylander. cars suck.