Help, stats needed. V8 v Motormacycle

[Biff]

Ok - a topic virtually done to death. But I work with a dick splash that swears a V8 car will beat 'any' motorbike around 'any' track. I've got all the general cage v bike stuff covered, but I've no evidence to back up the fact that a bike may be faster than a V8 (Holden, Ford things).

Any help, advice? Google isn't my friend today.

[James Deuce]

<table class="data" border="0" height="42" width="525"> <tbody><tr><td class="first" align="center">1</td> <td class="odd" align="center">51</td> <td class="names">Super Cheap Auto Racing</td> <td class="names">Greg Murphy</td> <td class="odd">Holden Commodore VZ</td> <td class="even" align="right">
</td> <td class="odd" align="right">
</td> <td class="even" align="right">1:51.3434</td></tr></tbody> </table>
<table class="DataTable" id="table9" width="95%"> <tbody><tr><td class="PosCol">1</td> <td class="NameCol">Josh BROOKES (NSW) </td> <td class="MachineCol">Honda CBR 1000</td> <td class="LapsCol">
</td> <td class="TimeCol">
</td> <td class="TimeCol">
</td> <td class="TimeCol">1:32.157</td> <td class="OnLapCol">3</td></tr></tbody> </table>

He said what? These stats are from this year. MotoGP bikes haven't been there yet but I would imagine the good guys would be in the mid-1:20s.

Silly man. Point out that the V8s are purpose built space frame cars, and the Superbikes are mildly modified road bikes.

[Motu]

F1 goes to V8s next year,I doubt if they will be any slower than the V10s - I don't think any bike will stand a shit show against a V8 F1 car.....A 2005 R1 against an XC Falcon 302?....I think I might back the bike there.

[Ghost Lemur]

Invite him out to ruapuna. Best time wins.

[Mental Trousers]

Invite him out to ruapuna. Best time wins.

Loser buys the drinks, the food for the bbq and the strippers.

Oh, there's always that wee vid someone posted on here somewhere of a 999 beating a Lambo that 5th Gear did.

[masterofpuppets]

F1 goes to V8s next year,I doubt if they will be any slower than the V10s - I don't think any bike will stand a shit show against a V8 F1 car.....A 2005 R1 against an XC Falcon 302?....I think I might back the bike there.

yeah but im pretty sure ther eis a bit of differnce between F1 and v8 "super"cars. yep the v8's will be just as good in the F1. teams will still be allowed to use v10 but have to restrict them a little bit.

[Biff]

Thanks Jim. A futon of sinformation be thee.

[Timber020]

Ill race him for vehicle titles. Could use a V8 as bait for bogan hunting season.

[TonyB]

Amazing how often you strike these dickheads. Let me guess:
- he wouldn't be seen dead in a Ford (or a Holden depending on his bias)
- a V8 Supercar is just like an HSV/ FPV
- his V8 will take down your crappy rice burner motorbike
- his V8 gets unheard of economy figures..... but it's only expressed in 'tanks' of gas. He's never actually worked out how many ks/litre it gets
- you nearly wet yourself when he was amazed that your bike needs filling up on the way to Nelson (or some other 4 hour trip). As he can't admit to himself that his V8 is a gas guzzler, he only works things out in the affore mentioned tanks per distance measure.... therefore he thinks your bike uses more gas than his car
- his V8 is quicker than his mates uncles Porshe 911 turbo whatsit "off the line", whatever the fuck that means...

[Kickaha]

www.mylaps.com and do a track search for Pukekohe or Manfield (I couldn't be arsed) then you can do a direct comparison of bikes in NZ vs V8 Supertaxi racing

[TonyB]

I could be arsed. For Pukekohe, the production superbikes are a smidgeon quicker than the Porche GT3's. Both in the mid to low 58's for the rounds I looked at. Couldn't see any times for the V8 supercars. Are the GT3's quicker?

[avgas]

I remember a few years ago Tony Ree's racing his ol' 98' R1 against a V8 supercar - or doing some track comparision or sommat.
Bike obviously won.
Would like to see a comparison with a catterham 500 vs ariel atom vs special bike (R7, RCV30?, RGV500 etc), as i think that would be closer.
The V8's are as bad as the F1's, banning 6/4 cyclinder cars well i never.
And then we had the demise of poor ol RT Chargers :(

[Hoon]

Ummm I'm sorry but your friend is right. At Pukekohe the V8 Supercars do 55secs (http://www.v8central.com/v8supercar/racenews.asp?newsitem=719) whereas Tony Rees R1 had the fastest lap of 57.6 at this years nationals (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=123760).

Of course you could say that Rossi could do better on his bike but then you are just speculating.

However, V8 supercars also race at Shangai which is on the MotoGP calendar so this is the best comparison we can find but unfortunately the V8s do 1.49.6s (http://www.v8central.com/v8supercar/racenews.asp?newsitem=756) against Gibernaus lap record of 159.7 (http://www.motogp.com/en/motogp/results/results_2751.htm?event_id=2751) in the dry.

[ManDownUnder]

Can't help witht he stats, but can offer the general approach of laugh in his general direction and walk away...

[Hoon]

<table class="data" border="0" height="42" width="525"> <tbody><tr><td class="first" align="center">1</td> <td class="odd" align="center">51</td> <td class="names">Super Cheap Auto Racing</td> <td class="names">Greg Murphy</td> <td class="odd">Holden Commodore VZ</td> <td class="even" align="right">
</td> <td class="odd" align="right">
</td> <td class="even" align="right">1:51.3434</td></tr></tbody> </table>
<table class="DataTable" id="table9" width="95%"> <tbody><tr><td class="PosCol">1</td> <td class="NameCol">Josh BROOKES (NSW) </td> <td class="MachineCol">Honda CBR 1000</td> <td class="LapsCol">
</td> <td class="TimeCol">
</td> <td class="TimeCol">
</td> <td class="TimeCol">1:32.157</td> <td class="OnLapCol">3</td></tr></tbody> </table>



That must have been from a wet v8 race. This site here (http://www.v8central.com/v8supercar/racenews.asp?newsitem=749) says Murphy did a 1:31.9909s with Mark Skaife taking pole with a 1:31.7311s!

[TonyB]

10 secs a lap.... that is an official arse kicking. Bikes don't use aerodynamic down force, so they will never corner as fast or brake as hard as a race car with down force.

And just as bloody well too, otherwise bike racing would become the procession that many forms of car racing have become. Why? In an EVEN racing class, most passing is done using the braking area or a mid corner speed variation. A vehicle with down force can brake in a much shorter distance than a standard vehicle. Shortening the braking area makes it harder to pass. Increasing corner speed makes it harder to pass.
EG: two vehicles are racing- they have no aerodynamic aids. The braking marker for a certain corner is 200m out. They need to gain say 10m to make a clean pass. So to make a clean pass they need to brake 5% harder or later.
Next they are fitted with wings etc giving them some down force. God knows what the braking distance would really be, but considering that an F1 car can supposely drive UPSIDEDOWN at anything over 100k, lets just say that its now 100m. To make a pass they now have to brake 10% harder or later, and they will be going much faster when they get there.

F1 racing cars are awesome machines. Nothing can get around a race track faster. But the braking distances are so short and the corner speeds are so high that it is incredibly difficult to make a pass. So you end up with a race that is won with pit stop strategys. Y-A-W-N!!!!!!!!!!!!! In MotoGP the lead can change 6 times in a lap. What would you rather watch?

[k14]

http://www.canterburycarclub.co.nz/The%20Track/Lap%20Records.php

That has the ruapuna lap records. Bike best lap is 5 secs better than a V8, 125 lap record is only 2 secs less. Although I'd say an auzzie v8 (eg, murph) would be pretty damn close to a bike around there, they are alot more sophisticated than the ones the nz series runs.

Its pretty logical that a v8 would be faster round puke than a bike, its a horsepower track and isn't really a good indication of the all round ability.

Next round in the v8's is at philip island. See what lap times they are pulling there compared to superbikes and motogp. Be a good indication.

[Kickaha]

but considering that an F1 car can supposely drive UPSIDEDOWN at anything over 100k.



And if they had any balls one of the teams would do a demo and prove that to us :yes:

[TonyB]

And if they had any balls one of the teams would do a demo and prove that to us :yes:
Of course they can't do it ...... there's no "Drive upsidedown" button on the steering wheel...

[Kickaha]

Just about forgot at the first Drink Drive 500 (liquor King) the fastest TransAm car was faster than the fastest bike by about 2/100ths of a second on the first day with both bikes and cars using the same track configuration

but thats a purpose built race car vs modified road bike

[Motu]

It's the aerodynamics that stop the F1 cars from passing these days,as they get close the dirty air reduces the down force so they can't get right up close,I think new rules are being sort to rectify this.An F1 car makes 1G just by backing off the throttle.It's stupid to campare any racing class against another,four wheels or two,each class has restriction,it's the whole point like,y'know? Whatever handycaps they have hurt,something not handycapped in that area will shit on them.

In the 50s bikes had full dustbin fairings,they covered the complete front wheel,but they were banned.GP bikes still don't have full front wheel coverage - does the ban still apply? Maybe bikes could be faster???

[onearmedbandit]

In the 50s bikes had full dustbin fairings,they covered the complete front wheel,but they were banned.GP bikes still don't have full front wheel coverage - does the ban still apply? Maybe bikes could be faster???

From the official Motogp quide:


Rule 26, subsection 1a; No motorcycle shall run a 'dustbin' stlye fairing in any FIM/DORNA event.

However one has to dig a little further to find out the reasoning why:


Rule 26, subsection 1a falls under the 'fashion crimes against motorcycles' (FCAM) act introduced in 1978.

[Oscar]

TWENTY SECONDS:


Lap Record – Marcos Ambrose (AU Falcon) 1:51.6490 (2002) ...

[cowpoos]

I could be arsed. For Pukekohe, the production superbikes are a smidgeon quicker than the Porche GT3's. Both in the mid to low 58's for the rounds I looked at. Couldn't see any times for the V8 supercars. Are the GT3's quicker?
probally not..

[cowpoos]

10 secs a lap.... that is an official arse kicking. Bikes don't use aerodynamic down force, so they will never corner as fast or brake as hard as a race car with down force.

And just as bloody well too, otherwise bike racing would become the procession that many forms of car racing have become. Why? In an EVEN racing class, most passing is done using the braking area or a mid corner speed variation. A vehicle with down force can brake in a much shorter distance than a standard vehicle. Shortening the braking area makes it harder to pass. Increasing corner speed makes it harder to pass.
EG: two vehicles are racing- they have no aerodynamic aids. The braking marker for a certain corner is 200m out. They need to gain say 10m to make a clean pass. So to make a clean pass they need to brake 5% harder or later.
Next they are fitted with wings etc giving them some down force. God knows what the braking distance would really be, but considering that an F1 car can supposely drive UPSIDEDOWN at anything over 100k, lets just say that its now 100m. To make a pass they now have to brake 10% harder or later, and they will be going much faster when they get there.

F1 racing cars are awesome machines. Nothing can get around a race track faster. But the braking distances are so short and the corner speeds are so high that it is incredibly difficult to make a pass. So you end up with a race that is won with pit stop strategys. Y-A-W-N!!!!!!!!!!!!! In MotoGP the lead can change 6 times in a lap. What would you rather watch?

as usual....tony's makin some sence... :niceone:

[number33]

It's all just physics. 4 wide tyres piss all over 2 skinny bike tyres on corners. Jesus - the contact patch on a bike is ridiculously tiny. As for outright performance, GP bikes OUTACCELERATE F1 cars and Joe blogg's street R1 pisses all over a V8 supercar.

[Mental Trousers]

It really depends on the track as to which will be faster - V8 supercar or bike. Pukekohe is a fast track where vehicles benefit from aerodynamics. It also doesn't have many places where the bikes superior power to weight ratio can be used effectively - out of the hair pin is really the only place.

Would be interesting to see times for both on more complex tracks.

[gav]

It's all just physics. 4 wide tyres piss all over 2 skinny bike tyres on corners. Jesus - the contact patch on a bike is ridiculously tiny.
I see this brought up alot, can you tell me why a 125GP bike can corner faster than a MotoGP when it has narrower tyres? Anyone?? :whistle:

[Biff]

In the 50s bikes had full dustbin fairings,they covered the complete front wheel,but they were banned

The official line being that dustbin fairings were prone to speed wobbles during a side wind. Another reason could have simply been sour grapes ( from some manufacturers), as Motto Guzzi (the inventer of the bins) was one of, if not the only, bike companies with access to a wind tunnel they used in order to improve the bikes hairydynamics. I think.

[Kickaha]

Would be interesting to see times for both on more complex tracks.

Only slighty more complex than Puke but at Teretonga

NZV8 Supertaxi, Kayne Scott , 1.02.867
GT3 Porshce,Matt Halliday, 59.519
GSXR1000, Andrew Stroud,1.00.697
GSXR600?Shaun Harris,1.02.300
RS125,Midge Smart,1.05.168
Hayabusa Sidecar,Scrivener/Meads,1.09.200

AT Levels the Production Superbikes were faster than all the car classes even though the bikes run a extra chicane onto the start/finish straight
there was less than a second in it though

[TonyB]

The NZ V8s are a very different animal to the Aussie V8 Supercars. NZ has about 400hp and 4 gears in a standard GB, Aussie has 600+ and a 6 speed sequential clutchless GB thingy

[sAsLEX]

I see this brought up alot, can you tell me why a 125GP bike can corner faster than a MotoGP when it has narrower tyres? Anyone?? :whistle:

thing called physics! they are about as heavy as a wet bus ticket therefore forces etc make the tires do less work blah blah stuff

[avgas]

Just about forgot at the first Drink Drive 500 (liquor King) the fastest TransAm car was faster than the fastest bike by about 2/100ths of a second on the first day with both bikes and cars using the same track configuration
but thats a purpose built race car vs modified road bike

Yeh had one of the guys who made that chev, was suppose to get back to me about some work - then he packed up an went to the states to do daytona cars.
superlight body, with 600+hp motor in those TransAms, im not supprised they beat a bike.
Very few of the race bikes in NZ wack out more than 200hp
besides the fastest time for anything on puke is done by........;)

[NordieBoy]

thing called physics! they are about as heavy as a wet bus ticket therefore forces etc make the tires do less work blah blah stuff

And when leaned over the narrower tyre keeps the centre of effort nearer the centre line of the wheel which produces less torque effects pulling the bike upright etc etc etc.

[Pixie]

The main point being: with the exception,maybe, of F1 and rallying, car racing is as boring as watching yatching.
So tell Mr Dick Splash that

He's only pursuing the argument because he feels so inadequate in his tin top when he sees a freedom loving motorcyclist

[ducatilover]

I could be arsed. For Pukekohe, the production superbikes are a smidgeon quicker than the Porche GT3's. Both in the mid to low 58's for the rounds I looked at. Couldn't see any times for the V8 supercars. Are the GT3's quicker?
the gt3's are more than likely quicker through the corners and they are probably as fast as the v8s on the straights.

if this guy thinks v8s are so fost he can pick any hsv/fpv pref hsv cos they're faster, and my bros650 will beat it to 160. :niceone: it does 160 in the same amount of time that the uk version of the hsv [they have an optional supercharger that boosts them to 560 odd hp] with the supercharger can. and my bros will sound better too :niceone:

[NhuanH]

those at Phillip Island ('The Island' to those who have been :bleh: ) may recall over the PA:
"....and when Murph heard the speed trap figures of Careless Chucka on the Duc of 332km/h, his reaction was FAAARK!"

So there. Bikes better than tintops. Enough to astonish a professional V8 pilot. Times/physics/whatever, doesn't matter. It is a much more gladiatorial pursuit. 300km/h+ with just 1.3mm of dead kangaroo between you and tarmac/kitty litter/tyre wall/spectators. That's well hard, innit?

Biff, edumacate your unsophisticated mate with the "Faster" DVD...

[TonyB]

Here's a thought. Can we find a bike with roughly the same power to weight ratio as a Formula Ford? They have no wings etc, so I guess they have no down force- tho they may use 'ground effect' although I have a feeling that ground-effect-only areodynamics was banned. The point being you would have a good comparison between a car and a bike, with no wings etc to give one or the other an unfair advantage.

[sAsLEX]

Here's a thought. Can we find a bike with roughly the same power to weight ratio as a Formula Ford? They have no wings etc, so I guess they have no down force- tho they may use 'ground effect' although I have a feeling that ground-effect-only areodynamics was banned. The point being you would have a good comparison between a car and a bike, with no wings etc to give one or the other an unfair advantage.

and only let it run with two wheels ......... :mellow:

[Mental Trousers]

If power to wieght ratio were the same for a car and a bike, I'd bet on the car no question. Problem there is, you neutralize the bikes advantage but only 1 of of the cars, not contact patch and roll stability.

[onearmedbandit]

Pixie, did I read your post correctly? F1 being interesting to watch?

[Biff]

Invite him out to ruapuna. Best time wins.

I did offer him a chance to prove his case, but he doesn't know anyone that would loan him a V8. Any offers....?

I'll show him the evidence kindly donated here to him tomorrow.

Thang q guys.


I see this brought up alot, can you tell me why a 125GP bike can corner faster than a MotoGP when it has narrower tyres? Anyone?? :whistle:

....physics and more general mathamatical thingies. Smaller tyre profiles/road contact area/angle of lean etc can be used in order to determine the formula required to calculate the geometric arc in which the wheels/bike takes. Slight variations in any of these variables can, in maffs terms, make a significant difference to the speed/rate of turn of any given.

And I said all that without taking a breath.

[TonyB]

Pixie, did I read your post correctly? F1 being interesting to watch?
I was thinking the same thing...

the funniest thing in F1 is the twelve tyre changers who stand carefully inspecting the tyres and then..... do nothing LOL

[sAsLEX]

I was thinking the same thing...

the funniest thing in F1 is the twelve tyre changers who stand carefully inspecting the tyres and then..... do nothing LOL

WORST RULE CHANGE EVER that one, dont have an issue with slowing the cars down reducing aero aid etc, BUT the pit stop tatics etc that were based around going for some fast laps on tires to make some ground while in a clear track etc actually made F1 bearable (especially when sky1 had certain programmes on for the adds)

but now its an even more farcical parade

[Mooch]

Had a mate with an older 255 HSV (Standard), Was doing 1:34's around manfield on a track day. So this could be the bench mark.
So for those that have trackdayed your road bikes how do your track day times compare. ? (I'm thinking 1:15-20's)

Oh and biff , an 850cc Mini 7 on the same day was doing 1:28's.

[Lou Girardin]

The NZ V8s are a very different animal to the Aussie V8 Supercars. NZ has about 400hp and 4 gears in a standard GB, Aussie has 600+ and a 6 speed sequential clutchless GB thingy

It's not sequential, standard H pattern with a clutch.

Besides, let's compare apples with apples, not purpose built race cars with slightly modded road bikes.
Get the mouth to put his V8 against any road bike. (I bet he hasn't got one)

[onearmedbandit]

Are you sure Lou? From in-car shots it certainly looks like the aussie V8 drivers are only moving the shifter forward or back, not in an H pattern.

[Motu]

Maybe they got a Berry & Chung inline shifter?

Any of you old farts have one in a Holden or Vauxhall?

[k14]

Are you sure Lou? From in-car shots it certainly looks like the aussie V8 drivers are only moving the shifter forward or back, not in an H pattern.
Yep the auzzie supercars have a normal h pattern gearbox. They don't use the clutch on upchanges but do on downchanges. I'm pretty sure the clutch works the same as a conventional clutch but the gearbox is different in someway so that they can change up without using the clutch. They can also change up without lifting the throttle.

[k14]

Besides, let's compare apples with apples, not purpose built race cars with slightly modded road bikes.
Get the mouth to put his V8 against any road bike. (I bet he hasn't got one)
Yeah I don't have any problems have a comparo with my little ole 125cc bike ahem. Its only 125cc and 1 cylinder against all 5.7 litres and 8 cylinders. Bike hasn't got a chance in hell against it aye??? :whistle:

[Drunken Monkey]

Lap records/statistics from http://www.philipislandcircuit.com.au

Motorcycle Lap Records
Class Rider Machine Time
MotoGP Melandri Honda 1:30.332
Form.Xtrm Brooks Honda 1:36.346

Car Lap Records
Category Driver Car Time
Form 4000 Wills Reynard 1:24.2215
V8 Supercars Lowndes Comm.VT 1:33.4389
GT Production Youlden AU XR 8 1:52.0907


The Formula Xtreme bikes and GT production cup V8s are probably the closest things you'll get to race modified vehicles which started off as dealer vehicles which any ordinary person can purchase.
The V8 supercars are pretty fast, even though we like to think of them as taxis, around 3 seconds per lap faster than Formula Xtreme (around the same as Troy Corsa's superbike record of 1:33.019). They would probably be considered equivalent classes, i.e. based on road-going vehicles, but in reality share few similar parts.
MotoGPs are quicker again. The Reynard 94D is an open wheeler and holds the outright lap record for Philip Island. I would expect an '06 F1 car would be faster again.

[Drunken Monkey]

Are you sure Lou? From in-car shots it certainly looks like the aussie V8 drivers are only moving the shifter forward or back, not in an H pattern.

The Hollinger 6 speed comes in both specifications, i.e. H pattern or Sequential. V8 Supercars run sequentials. V8 touring cars tend to run H types.

[k14]

The Hollinger 6 speed comes in both specifications, i.e. H pattern or Sequential. V8 Supercars run sequentials. V8 touring cars tend to run H types.
http://www.v8supercar.com.au/downloads/operationsman/2005/manual/2005%20Final%20Div%20C%20.pdf
page 26 states that they are only allowed to use H pattern gearboxes. Was pretty sure that I'd seen them using the standard H pattern from the in car shots. :niceone:

[Lou Girardin]

Yep the auzzie supercars have a normal h pattern gearbox. They don't use the clutch on upchanges but do on downchanges. I'm pretty sure the clutch works the same as a conventional clutch but the gearbox is different in someway so that they can change up without using the clutch. They can also change up without lifting the throttle.
No synchros, they just use engagement dogs.

[ManDownUnder]

No synchros, they just use engagement dogs.

is that another term for ugly bridesmaids?

[Lou Girardin]

is that another term for ugly bridesmaids?

Well, they make it easier to just bang it in.