How good are the older thou's??

[Gremlin]

just wondering... may be looking at an upgrade from a 250 in a couple of weeks, maybe.

Budget is a big factor, but anything from 400-1000 is being considered, but it has to have reasonable performance and ultra-reliable, along with being built for bigger people.

Seen a lot of older (1990-1995) cbr1000 and the like going for 4-5k and began wondering if they might not be a good idea, given that apparently the older 600's are not as peppy as older 400's (apparently after speaking to some other bikers), which may not be big enough for me. Old zxr's are still very expensive. :crybaby:

Which brings me back to the original question. What are the older (early 90's) thou's (600+) like, big problems or ultra reliable??

[aff-man]

you should buy this off swanman http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=38886758&key=153066

dooo ittttt http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=39006219&key=153066

tastey http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=39219167&key=153066

ol reliable http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=39333134&key=153066 (heheheh its a honda)

cheap as chips http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=39365993&key=153066

[MSTRS]

Tough call really. Age need not be an issue if it has been well maintained. I'm sure that certain models of any make have good/bad reputation. Someone else here may have that sort of advice. In saying, my 1990 GSXR1100 is as good/better than any other bike of it's age/class.

[Gremlin]

jeez, I hadn't seen most (looking regularly), but had seen swanman's, sorta why I asked, along with the cbr1000 l, fk, or something like that.

black gsxr is very nice, but probably too expensive, and that last one (with luggage) is not exactly what I am after... yeah

stop encouraging me :bleh: , I don't need any more of that... :sweatdrop

anyone owned those old thou's and the like? Any experience?

[Bonez]

http://www.ukbike.com/reviews/bikes/cbr1000.html

[Gremlin]

thanks MSTRS, yeah, age is not as important as treatment...

with all the bike experience people have had, I was hoping for something along the lines of x bike had recurring problems with this, maybe x bike always had trouble - avoid like the plague, x bike was very good.... that sort of thing.

I know they aren't exactly modern, but even 1990 isn't actually very backward, especially when you compare to the newest I would probably get being 1997 ish

I have been sorta tossing up between something like aff-mans old cbr (1997 I think it was wasn't it?), or going back a bit and getting a bigger bike, giving me more life in the bike. But then suspension is probably not as advanced etc...

[aff-man]

jeez, I hadn't seen most (looking regularly), but had seen swanman's, sorta why I asked, along with the cbr1000 l, fk, or something like that.

black gsxr is very nice, but probably too expensive, and that last one (with luggage) is not exactly what I am after... yeah

stop encouraging me :bleh: , I don't need any more of that... :sweatdrop

anyone owned those old thou's and the like? Any experience?

Havn't really ridden one but the 750 will out handel almost all the old thou's. plus it has awesome 3 pot caliper brakes so will stop on a dime.
And if you get the black one i can show you how to wheelie it... :eek5: :eek5:

[aff-man]

thanks MSTRS, yeah, age is not as important as treatment...

with all the bike experience people have had, I was hoping for something along the lines of x bike had recurring problems with this, maybe x bike always had trouble - avoid like the plague, x bike was very good.... that sort of thing.

I know they aren't exactly modern, but even 1990 isn't actually very backward, especially when you compare to the newest I would probably get being 1997 ish

I have been sorta tossing up between something like aff-mans old cbr (1997 I think it was wasn't it?), or going back a bit and getting a bigger bike, giving me more life in the bike. But then suspension is probably not as advanced etc...

What do you mean by more life?? The cbr did wheelies fine (yes i know that's what you are really asking :devil2: ) ... cause you had to use the clutch unlike the gixxer but hey it was still a bit scarey quick when you gave it nuts :love:

[Gremlin]

In terms of life, meaning a balancing act between cost (older thous seem cheaper) and power.

Older thous would probably have the same kind of power as a more modern 600-750, but they cost more.

Funny, when I started on the ZZR, I had read the posts about out-growing your bike, figured it wouldn't happen with a more sporty bike. But it did. Quickly :weep:

yeah, at the moment just trying to find and absorb all the knowledge needed to make a decision... seems like the older thou's are heavy (did expect that really) but combined with a bad turning circle and it will be doing some commuting means that it probably won't be a good choice. (splitting to the front of lights is a very necessary ability)

That said, weight will probably be an issue with all old thou's. *sigh*

[TonyB]

Tough call really. Age need not be an issue if it has been well maintained. I'm sure that certain models of any make have good/bad reputation. Someone else here may have that sort of advice. In saying, my 1990 GSXR1100 is as good/better than any other bike of it's age/class.
Hoho! Now thats a big call! Many would beg to differ (http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcyam/fzr1000.html) I saw an 89 FZR1000 exactly like mine on trade me for only $3500. Thats a hell of a lot of bike for the money. The FZR won motorcycle.coms open class shootout for 6 years in a row. (http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mccompare/opensportbikes.html)

Just remember if you step up to a 1000cc you'll be getting all the insurance and running costs that go with it. It's a whole different league of expensive. Tyres will set you back about $530 or so a set and you'll be lucky to get 5000k out of them

[justsomeguy]

Oi Gremlin - have the LTStupidArses said yes???

[MSTRS]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Sports-tourer/auction-38809367.htm

[MSTRS]

just to prove I'm not biased....
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Sports-tourer/auction-39385227.htm

[RiderInBlack]

You've just got to decide what you want from your bike. Get to know your 1000's. "Roxanne" is a 1990 CBR1000F and is therefore more suited to the long hauls, rather than the track and fast hoon's. She heavy @ 230Kg dry, but this is no problem for what I use her for. She's not as quick as the racing 1000's of her year, but 260KPH is not slow ether . For me she does the trick and is as nearly good as most of the new bikes of her class.
If it's speed and hoon handling power then look @ bike models with lot's of R's in their names.
Like all bikes, the older ones are as only good as their rider. Riders with brand new bikes can be seen to be taken by older "outdated" bikes just because the rider knows how to handle and set it up better. "The Fastest Indain" is a good case in point for this. A 1920 bike betting 1960's bikes and still has the record for the fastest under 1000cc streamlined bike.

[Gremlin]

Oi Gremlin - have the LTStupidArses said yes???
what, on the exemption?? Need to get bike back tomorrow, book test, get someone to photograph me on the bike, showing how ridiculously small it is, sit test, put in exemption detailing all the reasons and then wait.

yeah, the RF900 is another I have seen. Apparently the km model is unrestricted, mile one is (not to mention having to deal with miles) so that is one thing I have to look at, but their price is also a little high. Sorta depends if the right bike comes along, at the right price kinda thing.

[WINJA]

ANY EARLY ZZR1100 IS GOOD GREM , HIGHER KS ARE STILL RELIABLE AND FAST AND EASY TO WORK ON

[justsomeguy]

what, on the exemption?? Need to get bike back tomorrow, book test, get someone to photograph me on the bike, showing how ridiculously small it is, sit test, put in exemption detailing all the reasons and then wait.

yeah, the RF900 is another I have seen. Apparently the km model is unrestricted, mile one is (not to mention having to deal with miles) so that is one thing I have to look at, but their price is also a little high. Sorta depends if the right bike comes along, at the right price kinda thing.

See if Pyro still has his old bike - that would be the best to take a pic on.:sherlock:

[Gremlin]

As a side, when does a bike become heavy?? I like a nippy bike, but the older thou's like cbr or the zzr1100 (good idea Winja) are heavier for obvious reasons.

Was going to go off and look at stats, but not much point unless I know approximately what is heavy... 200kg??

The zzr1100 is about 230, same with the cbr...

[WINJA]

As a side, when does a bike become heavy?? I like a nippy bike, but the older thou's like cbr or the zzr1100 (good idea Winja) are heavier for obvious reasons.

Was going to go off and look at stats, but not much point unless I know approximately what is heavy... 200kg??

The zzr1100 is about 230, same with the cbr...
THE CBR IS A SACK OF SHIT WHEN YOUR COMPARING EARLIER ZZRS AND CBR , THE ZZR CAN STILL TURN WELL IF YOU PLAY ROUND WITH THEM , LIKE RAISE THE BACK OR DROP THE FRONT , ALSO THE ZZR RESPONDS WELL TO TUNING , LIKE A 4 TO 1 ZORST AND AN IGNITION ADVANCER.
WHEN COMPARING BIKES YOU NEED TO ADD YOUR OWN WEIGHT TO BOTH BIKES WET WEIGHT THEN CHECK OUT THE DIFFERENCE AS A PERCENTAGE.

[RiderInBlack]

OK, mech down falls of "Roxanne" the CBR1000FL:

Rotten collector boxs. The orginal down pipes and collector box on these bikes trap water in the box. This leads to them rotting out. Check this cearfully if you are looking at one of these. I've replaced "Roxanne's" at great exspence (see "Roxanne's" Stripping For Winter (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=11937)), but that was cheaper than buying the orginal part and ending up with the same problem

Fu*ken camchain and camchain tensioner. They wear out in 30000-60000Km. Exspenive to replace cause it's a task and a half getting the chain out, and you should replace both the chain and tensioner together (IMHO). I've had that problem (see "Roxanne's" Stripping For Winter (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=11937)).

Starter/alternator chain. Some have this problem. @ over 80000Km, it is possible that "Roxanne" might just be starting to have this.

Fairings that are older than 10 years and have been out in the Sun. Most fully faired bikes of "Roxanne's" age will have this problem. The plastic gets brittle and cracks easily even if you don't drop them. Learn plastic welding, get fibreglass fairing, or go naked or newer.

[Bonez]

As a side, when does a bike become heavy?? I like a nippy bike, but the older thou's like cbr or the zzr1100 (good idea Winja) are heavier for obvious reasons.

Was going to go off and look at stats, but not much point unless I know approximately what is heavy... 200kg??

The zzr1100 is about 230, same with the cbr...Heavy is relative. I'm 6' , weigh 65kgs and ride a 550ish lb 1980s 750. It commutes and handles quite well. 90s thous should be better, ie power to weight ratio etc. Go for a ride on a few. Be carefull though or you'll end up in deep shit. It's a BIG step up from your current bike but is totally possible with the right frame of mind. Have a look at the sight I posted. There's a few owner reveiws on quite a number of bikes.

[cowpoos]

have a look into zxr750's...or if u have enough coin zx7r...great bikes....very confidence inspiring handling I've been told...lots of them in wreakers so parts cheap...

[Gremlin]

yeah, I was wondering about weight being relative, discounted it, but then I guess at 6'3, and 100kg, I assume too much. Figured that in heavy traffic a heavy bike is a heavy bike...

On the power front, I'm certainly not looking at modern 600-1000, too expensive and definitely quick.

I figure old 1000 (early 90), or newer (mid 90) 600ish would be reasonably similar (weight and technology leveling the field)?? But both would definitely be faster than the zzr, but its a matter of control. When I started on the zzr, it was smoothly rolling on the throttle, then realised that just opening it didn't make a difference.

Moving up will mean the resumption of smoothly rolling on and off the throttle. Shouldn't be too much of a problem. Really hoping to get some more power off the line (although it will mean more tyres) as at the moment even a fast take off (leaving the cars for dead) is a yawn waiting for the bike to respond. Biggest is power out of an uphill tight corner without chopping down 3-4 gears (not kidding)

[kro]

Dude, that YZF would be a beast of a bike, very very under-rated machine in its time that kinda came in being when everyone was going 900cc, and kinda missed its hey day.

[cowboyz]

I went from a ninja 250 to my current gsx600. Loving it. The throttle control took a couple of kms to get used to. I used to open the throttle on the little ninja and leave it there. Cornering was pretty much lying the bike down and getting on the throttle early and (don't get me wrong, I loved the bike) but it just didn't have the power to get into trouble. When I first started riding the 600 I found myself doing 150 everywhere because it just didn't seem like it. Had a couple of moments where I got on the throttle a bit much a bit early and had the bike twisting under me reminding me that the ground is very hard but I haven't dropped it yet.

I went for the 600 cause it options in my budget at the time were either the gsx or an older GPZ1000 which was really heavy. The 600 felt heavy when I am pushing it around or backing it up but riding it seems extremely light. This was my main reason for going with the 600 instead of the 1000.

[RiderInBlack]

Riding the VFR750 after my little GSXR250 was about the same as you Cowboyz. Nearly got a RF900, but found it weighty after the GSXR250 and way too exspencive. The VFR750 was a very good move for me as the extra weight and power was not that hard to get used to. When I first looked at getting a CBR1000F, I found the power and weight difference quite marked from the VFR750. Made me glad I hadn't tried going straight to the 1000 (or the RF900) from the 250.

[WINJA]

GSXR 750 T OR V ARE ALSO GREAT BIKES AT A REASONABLE PRICE. THATS 96 AND 97

[Unit]

If it's speed and hoon handling power then look @ bike models with lot's of R's in their names.
Sound advise I say, very technical (like I would know). Mine has lots of sssssssss's, whats with that? Yea, I know, back to my corner... :blank:

[T.I.E]

i went from a ninja 250 to a 94 Cbr1000f i made the big jump. i took a 2000 cbr600rr for a spin and that was insane. i'm 6ft weight over 100kgs.
it didn't take long to adjust to the 1000 for me. smooth even power. and yep it weighs alot but i have never had a problem throwing it around in traffic during rush hour. turning a problem it maybe but it's nothing i didn't get used too.
i have never looked back except for the rear suspension. i'm not light and put a pillion on the back and it was not too healthy but it handled.
it's no race bike, but it aint slow either. and i have to say for a long haul it has to be one of the most comfortable bikes out there.
commuting 7.5/10
long haul 9.5/10
its not a race bike. but it still has some get up and gone in it.

[RiderInBlack]

Sound advise I say, very technical (like I would know). Mine has lots of sssssssss's, whats with that? Yea, I know, back to my corner... :blank:Maybe that's an Itie thing:whistle: Probably an Italian word for racing or fast starts with S.

[cowpoos]

Sound advise I say, very technical (like I would know). Mine has lots of sssssssss's, whats with that? Yea, I know, back to my corner... :blank:
R is for racey
S for sexy....your bike must be real sex dudette... :)

mine only has one s ..... so semi-sexy

[Unit]

R is for racey
S for sexy....your bike must be real sex dudette... :)

mine only has one s ..... so semi-sexy
Ahhhhhhh, another TLer. Now I can tell TL Rider IM the sexier one, cool, power. :headbang:

[Mumbles]

have a look into zxr750's...or if u have enough coin zx7r...great bikes....very confidence inspiring handling I've been told...lots of them in wreakers so parts cheap...

Being a tall person (not) I went from a CBR250 straight to a ZXR750 (89 H1). noticed the weight when trying to push her, but the balance when riding i never noticed the weight. Best thing was the fact that I could touch the ground with both feet when sitting on her (had trouble doing this on the 250). Riding with me mate (who can ride well and is 6ft) who has the same model of bike, was keeping up with the new bikes and they didnt like it a bit!

Take some bikes for test rides to see what works for you

P.S Person I purchased the ZXR off was a 120+ Kg guy
(sold it cause he went overseas)

[Toast]

Dude, that YZF would be a beast of a bike, very very under-rated machine in its time that kinda came in being when everyone was going 900cc, and kinda missed its hey day.

Yeah, the YZF thou's hall arse! My '02 600 gets hammered on the back straight of Puke by one of them...and I mean hammered, no contest. That dude was keeping with the K3 thou on the day too.

[Toast]

GSXR 750 T OR V ARE ALSO GREAT BIKES AT A REASONABLE PRICE. THATS 96 AND 97

They're the bomb! My first big bike experience...mo' power but wicked handling when you grab them by the neck and show 'em where to go. Still wanna own one, one day...

[WINJA]

Yeah, the YZF thou's hall arse! My '02 600 gets hammered on the back straight of Puke by one of them...and I mean hammered, no contest. That dude was keeping with the K3 thou on the day too.
IF YOU ARE TALKING BOUT PETER VILES THUNDER ACE , IT HAS ABOUT 15,000 WORTH OF WORK DONE TO IT

[WINJA]

They're the bomb! My first big bike experience...mo' power but wicked handling when you grab them by the neck and show 'em where to go. Still wanna own one, one day...
YUP THEY THE HEAD BANGERS BIKE

[Toast]

IF YOU ARE TALKING BOUT PETER VILES THUNDER ACE , IT HAS ABOUT 15,000 WORTH OF WORK DONE TO IT

Nah bro, this was just some dairy farmer dude from up North...just had a modded pipe on it. He was probably a better rider than me anyway...but I was never really close enough to test how close I could stay in the corners.

[Stevo]

The best thing about a bigger bike = The power. The bike works more so the rider doesn't have to. (To a degree anyway)

Worst thing about a bigger bike = Speed. I am endlessly frustrated that I am choking the thing by not letting it above 110 apart from one corner to the next in twisties. (Bearing in mind I have 95 demerits and wanna keep my license)

[VasalineWarrior]

Hey what about an older GSX-R 750? (late eighties/early ninties before they became water cooled) Cheap, reliable and damn quick

[SARGE]

just wondering... may be looking at an upgrade from a 250 in a couple of weeks, maybe.

Budget is a big factor, but anything from 400-1000 is being considered, but it has to have reasonable performance and ultra-reliable, along with being built for bigger people.

Seen a lot of older (1990-1995) cbr1000 and the like going for 4-5k and began wondering if they might not be a good idea, given that apparently the older 600's are not as peppy as older 400's (apparently after speaking to some other bikers), which may not be big enough for me. Old zxr's are still very expensive. :crybaby:

Which brings me back to the original question. What are the older (early 90's) thou's (600+) like, big problems or ultra reliable??


mate .. i ride a 92 Yammie FJ1200.. pulling HEAPS of HP and Torque..(not stock).. built for us "plus size" riders and with a few tweaks.. can handle with the best of the more modern bikes ( mine is full Ohlins/ racetech boingers)... never had a problem with it (save the ABS).. can usually get a nice one for 5-7000

prior FJ pulled 320,000 km before i parted it out .. engine still running in another FJ in Hamilton.

[justsomeguy]

What do you guys think of the TRX850??

They're a pretty good bike from what I hear....... never ridden one.... restricted license, etc.

There's a very nice one for sale. Carbon fibre grey in colour on bikepoint.

Was trying to find a link but it looks like the bloody site is down.

[SARGE]

What do you guys think of the TRX850??

They're a pretty good bike from what I hear....... never ridden one.... restricted license, etc.

There's a very nice one for sale. Carbon fibre grey in colour on bikepoint.

Was trying to find a link but it looks like the bloody site is down.


Trixies are damn nice bikes ..270 degree inline twin ( similar to the Ducati).. heaps of power all across the range and handles well

[Gremlin]

Thanks heaps guys, lots of info to go...

Seems like: older thou's are heavy (not really surprising) and for commuting and ducking and diving its not really the thing...

600-750 is a better bet, now its researching each bike, good years, bad years (and so on).

Then, when a shorter list is done, riding, and a shorter list, then waiting to see what pops up... (I think somebody posted an older 750 here somewhere, but its too early :crybaby: )

[justsomeguy]

Thanks heaps guys, lots of info to go...

Seems like: older thou's are heavy (not really surprising) and for commuting and ducking and diving its not really the thing...

600-750 is a better bet, now its researching each bike, good years, bad years (and so on).

Then, when a shorter list is done, riding, and a shorter list, then waiting to see what pops up... (I think somebody posted an older 750 here somewhere, but its too early :crybaby: )

Yeah - what problems you have NOT:devil2:

[Gremlin]

Yeah - what problems you have NOT:devil2:
huh?? Looking at bikes is very hard. Knowing I will have to test some of them is even harder.

Finding one I like... but then not being able to afford it, is the hardest of all :crybaby:

I know I need to work over Christmas period, but I also know, the harder I work, the more the ZZR will want money (not joking, last time I worked all uni holiday, the bike ate it ALL and then some). It sucks.

*sigh*. Have to wait until LTSA (or LTNZ or their -yet-to-be-announced-new-name) tells me yay or nay, and then the punishment may begin...

[DEATH_INC.]

Righto....
RF900,good bike,just check that the alternator drive mod has been done or it WILL die.
FZR1000,notorious for loosing second gear and exploding clutches if you're too rough.Tend to use a bit of oil too (even from new???)
CBR1000,not too bad and no real probs I'm aware of,a little more touring orientated than some of the others.
ZX10 (older one's)A good strong bike,again no real probs that I know of.Maybe a little pricey.
GSXR1100.Prolly the pick of the bunch,Very fast and strong for an older bike,a little clumsy in the handling department though.
One thing I wanna point out though,these things are all very big and fast(they'll all break 280kph on a good day)and don't handle anything like a 250,be very sure of your riding skill before you purchse one as they are not very forgiving compared to the more modern bikes.
My opinion is you should go for a 600,still waaay faster than yer 2fiddy and an awful lot safer than these monsters.
Other suggestions would be a yzf750,maybe a gixxer750/600(you may find an older srad for fiveish)and I've even seen the odd ZXR750 for that sorta price.

[TonyB]

Righto....
FZR1000,notorious for loosing second gear and exploding clutches if you're too rough.Tend to use a bit of oil too (even from new???)

Gear box- have only really heard of this one recently.
Clutch- yip, a lot of the american owners put a new clutch basket in. I have heard of them exploding. But there is a guy on here who's done heaps of launches on his FZR with no problems
Oil- if I use mineral or semi synthetic mine does use oil. If I use fully synthetic it doesn't until it's time to change.
Other problems- the EXUP valve can sieze up. Just maintain it and feed it new bushes occasionally (they're cheap)
- the dreaded idle to 3000rev misfire. There seem to be a few different causes for this one. From coils to valve clearance to carbs. I've thrown a few dollars at mine trying to fix it. Seems to be OK on 98 or race fuel.
- emulsion tubes. They wear resulting in rough running. Common to all Mikuni carbs of this type.

[Lou Girardin]

Apart from the alternator drive and emulsion tube wear, the RF is damn near bulletproof, and it'll do everything you want except kill 1000's at track days.

[MSTRS]

Righto....

GSXR1100.Prolly the pick of the bunch,Very fast and strong for an older bike,........

I rest my case.....

[cowpoos]

Trixies are damn nice bikes ..270 degree inline twin ( similar to the Ducati).. heaps of power all across the range and handles well

the trx is a inline twin and yes has a 270 degree firing order....the ducti's have a v-twin [they call it a L-twin because of how its placed in the machine] set at 90 degrees...there fore the firing order is 360 degrees...so it isn't that similar...but yes...apparently they are a great bike...and sound good!

[Smorg]

I bought my 6 hundy at 60k and its a 1992,since then ive done almost 20k on it and i havent had a single problem with it in the 2 years ive owned it started everytime and always has the balls when i need it. BUt like others have said it depends alot on its service history mine was done every 4k before i bought it so i do it every 5-6k (im not very rich)
but IMO a general statement though if your looking at older bikes that are reliable go honda they are bulletproof :done:

[F5 Dave]

I haven’t read every reply, but I gotta say I truly believe people who swap from a small bike to a big one in one step are doing themselves a disservice. The longer you spend working your way up the ranks, the more you will learn rather than jumping onto something that will scare you.

If you really are quite a competent rider then a 600 should be a good jump. Something like a 90s CBR600 can sport-ride, pillion, tour, & commute without breaking the bank & is small enough to still be fairly telepathically controllable.

‘Course there are some who think that straight from a 250 to a 1000 is a fine thing. Stoney was a great advocate of this theory. Well. . . until he spanked his 1000 up twice & himself way moreso. (apologies Stoney, but I think you’d agree).

[Stevo]

I haven’t read every reply, but I gotta say I truly believe people who swap from a small bike to a big one in one step are doing themselves a disservice. The longer you spend working your way up the ranks, the more you will learn rather than jumping onto something that will scare you.

If you really are quite a competent rider then a 600 should be a good jump. Something like a 90s CBR600 can sport-ride, pillion, tour, & commute without breaking the bank & is small enough to still be fairly telepathically controllable.

‘Course there are some who think that straight from a 250 to a 1000 is a fine thing. Stoney was a great advocate of this theory. Well. . . until he spanked his 1000 up twice & himself way moreso. (apologies Stoney, but I think you’d agree).
At first I thought goin to the thou should be no problem. BUT maybe F5Dave is right. I did not consider that you were still on learner license, and without knowing your riding ability (ie. have you been riding offroad for years etc) I would be hesitant to recommend a thou.
A lot of it depends on maturity of the rider. If you're doing lots of miles regularly, you will quickly learn whatever size new bike you get........ OR maim yourself and the bike depending on the respect you do or don't give it.
I don't think the old 600s are anywhere near as bad as older 400s, but then I've only ridden one older 400, and it didn't seem much bigger than a 250.

My 10 cents worth.
My 600 has oodles of power, as much as any commuter could ever need.

[inlinefour]

some of the older ones are quite collectable to

[nudemetalz]

I get my "older thou" delivered on Monday. When it's on the road I shall tell you what it's like ;) :niceone: