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Gontour
3rd November 2005, 11:06
okay, I was in Kmart and 'browsing' the oil section and picked up some Shell Helix Ultra :doh: , Is this okay for my bike ??? (wet clutch), I should have got a bike specific oil but will it really matter (clutch slip,Gear Engegement)??????

Cheers

bugjuice
3rd November 2005, 11:08
use bike oil in your bike. It ain't just the writing on the bottle that's different ya know.. unless you don't like your bike any more, in which case, go for it and let us know how it goes :niceone:

XTC
3rd November 2005, 11:18
I use Diesel oil in my bike.... But that doesn't have the friction modifiers that some car oils have. These additives can cause clutch slippage in wet clutches.

madboy
3rd November 2005, 11:26
ditto buggie... as i understand it, car oil is not for bikes.

Gontour
3rd November 2005, 11:28
use bike oil in your bike. It ain't just the writing on the bottle that's different ya know.. :niceone:

Hence the question

Postie
3rd November 2005, 11:28
i wouldn't use that in a bike personally. if you got it from Kmart and you haven't used it/opened it, just take it back, get your cash back and go to a bike shop. it'll be worth it in the long run. or call a bike shop and check with the experts to see if you can use it without any bad side affects

Motu
3rd November 2005, 12:04
What viscosity? Shell Helix Ultra is a fully synthetic oil and contains no friction modifiers,it doesn't need to being fully synthetic.It's not even available in the US where they have to use friction modified oils to pass economy tests.

You don't want it,bring it to me,I'd be real happy to run that in any bike - you don't need bike oil in your bike.

inlinefour
3rd November 2005, 12:05
okay, I was in Kmart and 'browsing' the oil section and picked up some Shell Helix Ultra :doh: , Is this okay for my bike ??? (wet clutch), I should have got a bike specific oil but will it really matter (clutch slip,Gear Engegement)??????

Cheers

I only use specific oils for bikes. The bloke also makes a very valid point about the deisel oil also

Gontour
3rd November 2005, 12:43
What viscosity? Shell Helix Ultra is a fully synthetic oil and contains no friction modifiers,it doesn't need to being fully synthetic.It's not even available in the US where they have to use friction modified oils to pass economy tests..

Motu you sound like you know what you are talking about,
(not that the rest of you don't) But if youre sure there are no friction modifiers in Shell Helix Ultra then I imagine its sweet,and youre right it is fully synthetic and for 50 odd $ I thought it was good value........and its 5W-40.

Thanks for everyones input...so far

kerryg
3rd November 2005, 13:12
Motu you sound like you know what you are talking about,
(not that the rest of you don't) But if youre sure there are no friction modifiers in Shell Helix Ultra then I imagine its sweet,and youre right it is fully synthetic and for 50 odd $ I thought it was good value........and its 5W-40.

Thanks for everyones input...so far

This topic has been covered many times. There are lots of different views and lots of information around and probably no clear consensus but when people advise you to use a bike oil (one made for bikes specifically) it's safe advice. You CAN use certain car oils as Motu says, you just have to have the nous to identify which car oil is OK and which is not which Motu does 'cos he's a spanner-man and most of us don't, so we (the less well-informed) go for the bike oils to be safe.

I had a hotted up old GSXR1100J with over 150 crankshaft HP and the guy who built the engine (Terry Reid) recommended ordinary cheap Shell Helix in the yellow container (straight mineral car oil), and it was fine. Not a sign of clutch slip, gears shifted fine, engine ran sweet.


My 2 cents

Gontour
3rd November 2005, 13:20
Cheers, I have sent an e-mail to Shell through there web site and will post the result should they actually get back to me, in the meantime I shall ride with dirty oil, Probably doing more harm than ANY new clean stuff.

Cheers

Brian d marge
3rd November 2005, 13:30
Yes I also use desiel oil in my bikes ,,it has a lot of detergent in it and has a higher film shear strength ...If you have a look on the side panal of the can there are some numbers and letter .XXXX su or XXXXsj if you can tell me what those numbers are I can tell you a bit more about the oil...but as Motu said if it doesnt contain friction modifiers you will be ok ....Really the only thing ,,if the oil is miereal it breaks down quicker , a fully synthetic can be left for some unbelievable mileages ....
Me I use average mobile ...motul and de[ending on the temp of the engine I choose the viscosity.....

Stephen

Gontour
3rd November 2005, 13:37
Yes I also use desiel oil in my bikes ,,it has a lot of detergent in it and has a higher film shear strength ...If you have a look on the side panal of the can there are some numbers and letter .XXXX su or XXXXsj if you can tell me what those numbers are I can tell you a bit more about the oil...but as Motu said if it doesnt contain friction modifiers you will be ok ....Really the only thing ,,if the oil is miereal it breaks down quicker , a fully synthetic can be left for some unbelievable mileages ....
Me I use average mobile ...motul and de[ending on the temp of the engine I choose the viscosity.....

Stephen


Well you asked so here it is, and thanks for your interest.

Shell Helix Ultra

SAE 5W 40, fully synthetic.

Ultimate protection for performance motoring.

Performance Specifications:
API SJ/CF; ACEA A3/B3-98; Ford M2C - 15 3 E; VW 500, 502, 505; MB sheet 229.1.

Approved by Porche and BMW. Qualified for all Japanese engines. Factory fill for Ferrari.

Recommended for all naturally aspirated, fuel injected, turbo charged and multi valve passenger car engines fuelled by gasoline, diesel and LPG.

Brian d marge
3rd November 2005, 13:49
Well you asked so here it is, and thanks for your interest.

Shell Helix Ultra

SAE 5W 40, fully synthetic.


Performance Specifications:
API SJ/CF; ACEA A3/B3-98; Ford M2C - 15 3 E; VW 500, 502, 505; MB sheet 229.1.

Approved by Porche and BMW. Qualified for all Japanese engines. Factory fill for Ferrari.
LPG.

Coor that was quick ...I m not even out of me pit yet ....when I finish this coffee ,,,Ill get up and find me info on it ,,,,
BTW I like the way it says for BMW and porche ,,,like I am supposed to be impressed ,,,is it going to help my Morrie minor go faster???

Back later

Stephen

Gontour
3rd November 2005, 13:59
Cheers, I shall check back for a definative answer. :sweatdrop

and thanks for your time dude

HDTboy
3rd November 2005, 14:24
DO NOT PUT IT IN YOUR BIKE, I "borrowed" some from work and put it in my bike, as soon as I did, the clutch started slipping.

The Stranger
3rd November 2005, 14:26
For what it's worth (http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm)

Slingshot
3rd November 2005, 14:32
ditto buggie... as i understand it, car oil is not for bikes.
Bike Oil is a marketing ploy!

The important this is to get an oil that meets the API specs required for your bike and that it doesn't have friction modifiers. Obviously it should also have the appropriate viscosity.

kerryg
3rd November 2005, 14:49
For what it's worth (http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm)


That's very interesting. Certainly tends to cast doubt on the claims by motorcycle oil manufacturers about resistance to shearing stresses, and VERY interesting how quickly all the oils lost viscosity after quite modest mileages (guess that's another reason to keep those oil changes frequent) but it doesn't address the issue of friction-modifiiers and other additives at all so still leaves that area wide open to argument. I note also that it was done 1994 so I do wonder whether or not there have been any changes in the oils evaluated in the intervening 11 years. Very interesting though

Motu
3rd November 2005, 15:07
The gears ''chopping up'' the oil strands always gets dragged out - but the BMC Mini came out in 1959,when 99% of bikes used a separate oil in the gearbox,and they were in production for 40 yrs,no oil related problems,and the oils in 1959 were crap compared with todays oils....and now we have short chain synthetics,that's the whole point of synthetics,greater shear strength....so what's wrong with them in your bike? Clutch slip from synthetics? - I'd say the clutch was stuffed...but it's easier to blame the oil eh?

The Stranger
3rd November 2005, 15:20
I don't see any issue with friction modifiers. Oils labelled "Energy Conserving" should not be used in bikes with a wet clutch.

But using my Honda manual as a guide, so long as the oil is of the correct viscosity and meets or exceeds the stated API and not "Energy Conserving" I use it.

That said the manual states oil and filter should be changed every 12,000 km, but I change the oil every 6,000 km and the oil and filter every 12,000.

kerryg
3rd November 2005, 15:33
I don't see any issue with friction modifiers. Oils labelled "Energy Conserving" should not be used in bikes with a wet clutch.



Possibly showing my ignorance here but isn't "Energy Conserving" synonymous with "contains friction modifiers"?

Slingshot
3rd November 2005, 15:39
Possibly showing my ignorance here but isn't "Energy Conserving" synonymous with "contains friction modifiers"?


That was my understanding as well.

Brian d marge
3rd November 2005, 16:09
Hi there soory it took a while ...I did have a really good guide to oil ,,,but have misslaid it

Here (http://www.atis.net/oil_faq.html) is a general guide to oil

The one is what the numbers (http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/API.html) mean

and here (http://www.shell-lubricants.com/products/pdf/HELIX%20ULTRA.PDF) is the spec sheet for shell helix ....

When I find the copy I will post it

Dont stress to much when it comes to oil ,,,, the really cheap ones tend to have more detergents and cheaper additives ,,,, which dont combust so well and break down quicker ...but the average stuff you buy from the shop will be fine ,,and you will probably change it before it needs changing anyway
The BEST thing you can do If you are worried about engine long life,,,,is run A REALLY GOOD airfilter of the sponge foam type ....

and at the end of the day ,,,, you will probably sell the bike before you notice any problems caused by wear ...( except 2 strokes ,,under full load ,,,THEN it pays to have a oil with a very high shear strength ,,,,ask me how I know !!!)

make sure it doesnt have Friction modifiers ....will cause wet clutches to slip ......

Stephen

The Stranger
3rd November 2005, 16:42
My apologies.

When I said "I don't see any issue with friction modifiers" I was trying to say that it is not an issue as in there is no debate or doubt (i.e. no issue) to address.

They should not be used in a wet clutch!

I realise now that I phrased that badly.

Bonez
6th November 2005, 16:37
I'll post the link again- http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm

Bonez
6th November 2005, 16:44
The BEST thing you can do If you are worried about engine long life,,,,is run A REALLY GOOD airfilter of the sponge foam type ....

StephenOEM pleated paper filters have been proven more efficient at removing particles from the air than ANY aftermarket foam filter. Though I normally convert OEM paper ones to foam type for convenience sake more than anything else.

Brian d marge
6th November 2005, 18:11
OEM pleated paper filters have been proven more efficient at removing particles from the air than ANY aftermarket foam filter. Though I normally convert OEM paper ones to foam type for convenience sake more than anything else.
you would have to have a very fine weave and a lot of layers before it could compete with a sponge oil type ,,,, the reason is that the air has to change direction to get through ,,,and the dust being heavier ,, gets trapped by the oil
Do a google esearch and find a Good airfilter manufacterer ,,, and see ...I may have some comparisons somewhere ..but wife getting pissed as I have some Hunnydo s to do ...

Stephen

Bonez
6th November 2005, 18:15
Have seen a comparison by independent testers. Honda paper elements came out on top as far as filtration goes. Believe it or not.............................This link relates to cars but tells the same story- http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
Sure K&N have better flow but I know what I'd rather have on a dusty, gravelly back country road.

Edit-Clarified a few things

Brian d marge
6th November 2005, 19:56
Have seen a comparison by independent testers. Honda paper elements came out on top as far as filtration goes. Believe it or not.............................This link relates to cars but tells the same story- http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
Sure K&N have better flow but I know what I'd rather have on a dusty, gravelly back country road.

Edit-Clarified a few things

Nice site well posted ta , yes the napa paper ones offer good filtration and good airflow ... If you bear with me for a wjile I will find my info ,,,, I am sure the oil ones give better filtration at the expense of airflow ....which in a million mile motor is what u want ... ( the wife has gone out for a sec so I am into the wine ,,and a quick read of KB ,,,) when I find the stuff I am looking for I will post it ,, sorry ot was a while since I did anything with airfilters
But good web site , a nice read and yes I agree I wouldnt use a kand N either ,,,,,

Stephen

Pixie
7th November 2005, 11:55
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Pixie
7th November 2005, 11:58
I use Diesel oil in my bike.... But that doesn't have the friction modifiers that some car oils have. These additives can cause clutch slippage in wet clutches.
see the above-diesel oils are better quality

Pixie
7th November 2005, 12:02
You CAN use certain car oils as Motu says, you just have to have the nous to identify which car oil is OK and which is not


My 2 cents
The site I posted above explains the CI and SAE rating codes

Pixie
7th November 2005, 12:13
The gears ''chopping up'' the oil strands always gets dragged out - but the BMC Mini came out in 1959,when 99% of bikes used a separate oil in the gearbox,and they were in production for 40 yrs,no oil related problems,and the oils in 1959 were crap compared with todays oils....and now we have short chain synthetics,that's the whole point of synthetics,greater shear strength....so what's wrong with them in your bike? Clutch slip from synthetics? - I'd say the clutch was stuffed...but it's easier to blame the oil eh?
The article I read explains it as the VI improvers get degraded.
The Viscosity Index improvers is what makes an oil multigrade eg.20w40
The base oil has a viscosity of 20w and the VI improvers do their magic as the oil heats up and it becomes 40w.When the VI improvers get buggered you're left with dirty 20w.This is why the viscosity drops.
A straight 50w oil does not lose it's viscosity by much as it ages,but it does not lube well at start up.
Diesel oils have more expensive VI additives that survive longer

Motu
7th November 2005, 12:40
And that's one of the reasons you want as narrow a spread on a multigrade as possible,even though they are synthetic those 5-50 synthetics span too much,you want 10-30 or 10-40.

Brian d marge
9th November 2005, 00:07
If you bear with me for a while I will find my info ,,,, I am sure the oil ones give better filtration at the expense of airflow ....which in a million mile motor
when I find the stuff I am looking for I will post it ,, sorry it was a while since I did anything with airfilters

Stephen

I know where the link is ...just cant access it ..we were talking about this very same issue of airfilters and oil longevity ...on another group i belong to anyway someone posted a link .. from one of the oil companys or something like that ..anyway ..its in Yahoo groups ...so when you try to do a seach all it does is a basic search ,,,and other than trall through every post ,,,which I will do .....as I will keep it ...( if anything out of this thread it got me off my arse to organise my computer and save info ...instead of relying on my memory ........which is ssorry what was i saying?? oh yet tea time ,,,nurse will be here soon !)

Some in the intrest of unsupported evidence ,,the court finds Napa paper the best all round element ! :doh:

thanks ,,,for at least getting me to do something about my computer !!!

Stephen

Silage
9th November 2005, 20:43
OK we are now clear that there are good and cheap alternatives to buying motorcycle oil so long as it doesn't have friction modifiers.

Can someone name one synthetic, one semi-synth and one mineral (diesel) oil of say 10w40 or 15w40 viscosity that is available in NZ and that meets the above criteria. Yes I am too lazy to get off my chuff and look myself, but I am also quite nervous about this and would take some notice from those who have actually used non-motorcycle oils rather than just pulling a bottle off the shelf and missing the "contains friction modifyers" small print.

Motu
9th November 2005, 22:16
Try Fuchs,they are a European company and don't make oil for the American market,so are unlikely to use friction modifiers.Silkolene is one of their companies,who make motorcycle oils - Pro 4 is the full ester synthetic,and they do a semi synth too.Titan is their range of automotive oils,and I use a PAO synthetic in my diesels that is able to be used with oil change intervals of up to 80,000km.Serious stuff.

T.W.R
9th November 2005, 22:30
okay, I was in Kmart and 'browsing' the oil section and picked up some Shell Helix Ultra :doh: , Is this okay for my bike ??? (wet clutch), I should have got a bike specific oil but will it really matter (clutch slip,Gear Engegement)??????

Cheers

car oil is car oil , bike oil is bike oil. different characteristics; motorcycle oil has anti foaming agents car oil hasn't.
if your up for the shell flavour go for ASX ( semi synthetic) or VSX ( full synthetic)
if your wanting to put additives to maintain viscosity SLICK50 is about the most reliable

Motu
9th November 2005, 22:40
if your wanting to put additives to maintain viscosity SLICK50 is about the most reliable

Lucky I didn't have a drink in my hand when I read that,I woulda spilt it on my nighty.Slick 50 in a bike - :thud:

The Stranger
10th November 2005, 14:15
Have seen a comparison by independent testers. Honda paper elements came out on top as far as filtration goes. Believe it or not.............................This link relates to cars but tells the same story- http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
Sure K&N have better flow but I know what I'd rather have on a dusty, gravelly back country road.

Edit-Clarified a few things

I use K&N in the bike. Both power and fuel economy have increased using the K&N. The fuel economy has increased significantly and the old paper cartridge filter had only done 2500km and looked quite clean

Yesterday myself and my son drove down to Lower Hutt and picked up a car he purchased on Trademe. Performance was well down on what I had expected from this new purchase. We stopped at Waiouru and I had a look around for what could be causing this. On inspecting the airfilter we found that the standard filter had been replaced with a K&N cartridge.
It was absolutely choked with dust, much of it was filled to top of the fins with crap. The airbox on the dirty side had a lot of dust and debris in it.
On the clean side the airbox was clean, and on the clean side of the filter no dirt was apparent at all. So even though there was a massive restriction and surely a large negative pressure on the clean side there was no dirt dust or debris evident on the clean side.

So ok, this experience is not a definitive test, however, how much filtration is necessary?
As a kid I used to run motors a lot without airfilters and have seen no detrimental effects. Not saying there are none but just because a filter takes out more crap does it make it inherently better for the engine or prolong engine life more?

The Stranger
10th November 2005, 14:18
if your wanting to put additives to maintain viscosity SLICK50 is about the most reliable

WTF. Surely you jest?

Ixion
10th November 2005, 14:22
I use K&N in the bike. Both power and fuel economy have increased using the K&N. The fuel economy has increased significantly and the old paper cartridge filter had only done 2500km and looked quite clean

..
As a kid I used to run motors a lot without airfilters and have seen no detrimental effects. Not saying there are none but just because a filter takes out more crap does it make it inherently better for the engine or prolong engine life more?

It makes a difference if it is carbs or FI. FI systems that use air flow meters to measure air flow are often sensitive to filter changes - both in terms of the air flow itself, and in terms of a filter allowing more small particles through, which build up on the hot wire of hot wire AFMs and stuff them up. I learned this from the Alfa forums, cos it is a notorious gotcha on Alfas. Put pod filters on and 1000k later your AFM goes poof.

The Stranger
10th November 2005, 14:55
I learned this from the Alfa forums, cos it is a notorious gotcha on Alfas. Put pod filters on and 1000k later your AFM goes poof.

That proves nothing
All alfas go poof about every 1000km anyway.

The Stranger
11th November 2005, 10:40
Have seen a comparison by independent testers. Honda paper elements came out on top as far as filtration goes. Believe it or not.............................This link relates to cars but tells the same story- http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
Sure K&N have better flow but I know what I'd rather have on a dusty, gravelly back country road.

Edit-Clarified a few things

You are not seriously claiming that this test has any validity what so ever are you.

I saw this a lot when reviewing mecidal studies. So many of them have glaring flaws and yet they still get published.

Whilst he does say that this is low bubget and he has tried to control what he can and not worry about what he can't, it is still no excuse to publish crap.

And a quick tip. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Anyone can publish anything they want on the Internet, doesn't make it right.

The problem with this "test" is this statement

Each test filter was used in the same car, on the same roads for 500 miles

He also says there is a lot of dust where he lives and offers to send photos of his wheels to prove it. Most of the dust on my wheels is brake dust, however, moving right along.

There really is no control for either atmospheric conditions or volume of air passed by each filter. His guess that it was an ideal time when testing the K&N is just that and could be way out. The amount and size of particles in the atmosphere could be affected by a bloody volcano half a world away. Also we have no way of knowing that engine speeds and air volumes were consistent for each test.

He may be correct in that the K&N may have the worst filtration, however his test in no way proves that or anything like it.
All it proves is that he has not actually conducted a test of the filtration capabilities of air filters.

Lou Girardin
11th November 2005, 11:00
OK we are now clear that there are good and cheap alternatives to buying motorcycle oil so long as it doesn't have friction modifiers.

Can someone name one synthetic, one semi-synth and one mineral (diesel) oil of say 10w40 or 15w40 viscosity that is available in NZ and that meets the above criteria. Yes I am too lazy to get off my chuff and look myself, but I am also quite nervous about this and would take some notice from those who have actually used non-motorcycle oils rather than just pulling a bottle off the shelf and missing the "contains friction modifyers" small print.

Synth - Mobil Racing 4T

Motu
11th November 2005, 11:16
Used oil analisist of vehicles using K & N filters shows an increase in silica levels,every time.This means small particals of sand are getting into the engine.You won't get me using one again,ever.

Bonez
11th November 2005, 17:13
He may be correct in that the K&N may have the worst filtration, however his test in no way proves that or anything like it.
All it proves is that he has not actually conducted a test of the filtration capabilities of air filters.You can't expect a test by the product producer to be valid can you? Sorta like Microsoft and testing MS Windows against other operating systems and stating it's the best server OS :whistle: .

Slingshot
12th November 2005, 09:49
FWIW I've just put Penrite HPR10 into my bike [info here] (http://www.penrite.com.au/nextpage.php?navlink=db/productview.php&id=172), gear changes seem to be smoother and overall the bike seems quiter (but I could be dreaming).

Pathos
12th November 2005, 10:13
This is gonna sound really stupid but...

I've been riding my bike for ~5 months on shell helix plus....

And I thought I read somewhere that the chain self greases its self sowithout thinking I've never added chain lube...that included a ride to Palmy and back :doh:

Oh well I'm learning...the hard way...poor baby doesn't deserve it...

NordieBoy
12th November 2005, 10:38
Have seen a comparison by independent testers. Honda paper elements came out on top as far as filtration goes. Believe it or not.............................This link relates to cars but tells the same story- http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
Sure K&N have better flow but I know what I'd rather have on a dusty, gravelly back country road.

Edit-Clarified a few things

I'd go for a properly oiled foam (UniFilter) anytime over a K&N.
The amount of dust that was getting through with the K&N compared to the Unifilter made it a no-brainer.

I like flow but I like lack of contaminants better.

The Stranger
12th November 2005, 10:50
You can't expect a test by the product producer to be valid can you? Sorta like Microsoft and testing MS Windows against other operating systems and stating it's the best server OS :whistle: .

Not suggesting that the manufacturers tests are the best.
I would expect that their tests are accurate though.

Just like Microsoft, but the devil is in the details. Microsoft did successfully show that SQL server was quicker than Oracle, but when you looked at the hardware used in each test it was obvious where the speed came from.

For example they (K&N) claim that particles of <10 micron are not significant to a motor and as such they have tested theirs with particles 10 and greater and it was very effective in this range.

So yes I waould expect that their test results would be repeatable by others using particles in this range. However their opinion on particle size is just that and is doubtless a source of debate.

They are an American company and for all it's failings the American legal system i feel tends to help keep these sorts of things reasonably accurate.

That said I am not saying K&N are the best anyway, I haven't tested them for filtration etiher, but neither have I claimed to.

Gontour
1st February 2006, 16:30
okay i have taken a while to actually put the Shell Helix Ultra into my Bandit, but I have done and it doesnt slip !!!! I went to the coromandel over the long weekend with wife on board and all was well, so thanks to everyone who has contributed and got some other information along the way. Hoefully now when people search for oil types this will at least have an ending.
Cheers