A baby's society.

[shcabbeh]

Every now and again, I get the feeling our society caters too much for idiots.

You know when you read the box of washing powder and it says "this product is not a food" that some guy, somewhere has eaten it or other products close to it.

I feel the same way with the NZ motorcycle licensing system. A system that has been adapted in order to make it ok for idiots to get their licence, as long as everyone does...to promote equality and fairness. Something society needs to wake up to, (in my humble opinion) is that equality is something that's just not a reality in our or any society.

In my utopia, the amount of time it takes for you to get any of the licences would be assessed and decided by a driving "coach". Where there is so much variation in driving techniques, experiences, approaches, it seems mad to me to have a generic system to fit everyone.

Person A spends his 18 months between having his Restricted licence and his Full commuting to and from work. Person A is never in a situation where he or she needs to use skills to avoid a crash, never has encounters with bad drivers and goes on his merry way.

Person B crashes within the first three weeks, lives in a bad part of town with bad roads and drivers. Person B has experienced things in 3 weeks that Person A doesn't in his 18 months. Which has more experience?

After all, the time frame is only about experience on the road really, right? I'll admit, I'm a perfectionist. However, when other peoples' lives are at risk by stupid drivers, people that have formed bad habits and the like, why shouldn't I be?

Simple fact is, time does not equal experience. Experience equals experience, and a personal coach for all would save a lot of shit. You should pass when the coach decides you're ready to pass. That'd save a lot of shit for the rest of us mature, safe and experienced drivers from being kept back by the system.

Bah, society's slowing me and others like me down to cater for stupid people...and I still have 11 months until I can get my full. Dumb.

</rant>

[SPORK]

--snip--

"I want my full quicker"

[shcabbeh]

Yeah, that about sums it up. Damn you, society!

Man, it's so easy to be emo.

[scumdog]

Listen you dudes, at my age time is fair scraming past so stop wishing it would go faster....

Enjoy your "L" and "R" licences while you can - it may be the only time in your life that you have them... (I suppose I could say the same about pimplest :lol: :rofl: )

[Badcat]

cant you do a course to reduce the time?
dude, I see fuckwits on L plates all the time.
i saw one yesterday on the victoria overpass in AK.
he was one some shitter 80s cbr250, tshirt, no gloves trainers.
lanesplitting at around 100ks while the traffic was crawling at like 40ks.
little cock hasn't fallen off yet i'd say.
sorry, but i'm all for slowing them down.
i'm sure, however, that you are the epitome of experience and skill already, and the laws shouldnt apply to you....

[shcabbeh]

Haha, it's not like I'm gonna look back in 20 years time and say "yep, those were the days...restricted by the license."

At least I hope not.. :/

[shcabbeh]

cant you do a course to reduce the time?
dude, I see fuckwits on L plates all the time.
i saw one yesterday on the victoria overpass in AK.
he was one some shitter 80s cbr250, tshirt, no gloves trainers.
lanesplitting at around 100ks while the traffic was crawling at like 40ks.
little cock hasn't fallen off yet i'd say.
sorry, but i'm all for slowing them down.
i'm sure, however, that you are the epitome of experience and skill already, and the laws shouldnt apply to you....

See, that's a maturity issue, not a skill issue. As I said, it's not an equal society, people aren't the same, a personal coach would be a better system, I feel.

[Badcat]

See, that's a maturity issue, not a skill issue. As I said, it's not an equal society, people aren't the same, a personal coach would be a better system, I feel.

yeah, i understood your post, but its a "one rule for all" issue isn't it?
i'm sure those of us that have been driving or riding for 20 years and have safe and capable cars would rather have a differentg speed limit etc than little 19year old shawn in his silvia with cut springs and a trumpet BOV.
But, it doesn't happen, because who decides?
the course you can do to reduce your licence time is a form of the "coach" you advocate isn't it? isn't like a defensive drivers course?
sorry - but i'm not sure of the details - i'm a complacent old fuck that's been riding 23 years.

k

[SlashWylde]

Do the MCBTA course if you want to speed up you licence process and think you have the experience and maturity to gain a pass. Call Pass Rite. They run the course here in Auckland. I think you have to have held a full car licence for 2 years and I'm not sure if you can do it if you are under 25 years old but it is a good course. I did my restricted and full with them on this course and got to full after 9 mths riding. In the past year since riding I've covered 14,000 kms 50/50 open road and suburban and have not had one crash, fall or near miss - fingers crossed for the future. I put it down to good training (MCBTA) and smart defensive riding on my part.

[shcabbeh]

yeah, i understood your post, but its a "one rule for all" issue isn't it?
i'm sure those of us that have been driving or riding for 20 years and have safe and capable cars would rather have a differentg speed limit etc than little 19year old shawn in his silvia with cut springs and a trumpet BOV.
But, it doesn't happen, because who decides?
the course you can do to reduce your licence time is a form of the "coach" you advocate isn't it? isn't like a defensive drivers course?
sorry - but i'm not sure of the details - i'm a complacent old fuck that's been riding 23 years.

k

Well, I figure that's what the coach would decide. I mean if you're able to get time off for doing a course, that could be mainstream in which it's actually hard to pass, but doesn't take as long. It'd be more developed than the course though, I'm talking something that is actually hard to pass. That to me would have more value than something that's piss easy over a longer period of time.

With regards to that car analogy, the difference is that you're comparing skill with maturity again. Maturity in that situation would be deciding not to go faster than needed in the first place, I think.

Shrug, just venting really.

[parsley]

Haha, it's not like I'm gonna look back in 20 years time and say "yep, those were the days...restricted by the license."

At least I hope not.. :/
Maybe not those exact words, but there's been a thread recently of people reminiscing about their first bike and what they used to get up to on it.

So you're stuck on a 250. Make the most of it! Learn to throw that thing around the road so you can ride with a 600. Find the limits of grip. Learn to ride well in the wet. So when you step up to that first 'big' bike it doesn't scare the crap out of you or get you killed in the first month.

[Swoop]

Easy. Go to Rarotonga for short holiday. Sit "motorcycle test" (50cc scooters mainly) and get issued an official drivers licence there.
Come back to NZ and have this licence cross-credited to a full NZ licence since our "rules" are the same.:blip:
Away you go with your new licence to buy your 1200cc machine!!!:stupid:


...Then go for a "quick spin around the block" crash due to lack of skill, and create small stain on a road somewhere and die... which gets all bikers a worse rep & society thinking that it's the bikes that are dangerous rather than the nut holding the handlebars.:doh:

The probationary period is there for a reason - to get more skills (hopefully) in an environment that will scare you at the most, but not kill you.

Make the very MOST of the time to learn all you can. Time will pass far quicker than you think.

[kro]

Its a funny old topic really. I have often thought that the restricted license system is based around a very shaky set of criteria, the most obvious being the limiting to 250cc motorcycles. Ever since I bought my RD250LC back in 87, I often thought that 250- 400 was ample power to get into trouble on, and alot of the 250's, even around that era were capable of 170- 190 kmh, which is fair hauling.

Experience is relative as you say Schabbeh, and I do think riding schools are a good idea. I attended Matchless riding school down in the old Turners and Growers carpark, just down the road from the old Forbes and Davies bike/model shop on Symonds st, and it was the best thing I ever did, and taught me more than I thought was possible to know, being the arrogant knob that I was at the time.
I think a riding school should be a compulsory for anyone wanting a bike license.

[shcabbeh]

Maybe not those exact words, but there's been a thread recently of people reminiscing about their first bike and what they used to get up to on it.

So you're stuck on a 250. Make the most of it! Learn to throw that thing around the road so you can ride with a 600. Find the limits of grip. Learn to ride well in the wet. So when you step up to that first 'big' bike it doesn't scare the crap out of you or get you killed in the first month.

I don't mind the capacity, I love my 250, besides needing a lot of maintenance :violin:

Just things like pillion rules and the 90km/h one get to me. Not to say I don't look forward to getting a 600, because I do :D But yeah, idiots can pass and endanger the rest of us while the rest of us have to be dragged down by those idiots. Wouldn't it be better if idiots couldn't pass? THEN, those idiots can be the pillions:D Everybody wins!

Sigh, utopia.

[Hitcher]

Bah, society's slowing me and others like me down to cater for stupid people... and I still have 11 months until I can get my full. Dumb.
And your point, exactly, is?

[shcabbeh]

Err.. that it shouldn't be, that it's wrong, it's corrupt, it's flawed, it's stupid, it's bad?

[Indiana_Jones]

most western nations are turning into nanny states 'aunty/uncle *insert leader's name here* knows best'

Personal reasponability has gone out the window lol

-Indy

[Lou Girardin]

Skill or experience isn't the issue when you're young. It's the fatal 2nd or 3rd year of driving/riding where confidence exceeds competence with a dash of hormonal excess thrown in for good measure. Another reason why advanced training is important, if only to teach how and when things go wrong.
Which is a good reason to make the driving age 25. Of course it'll never happen.

[Oscar]

Every now and again, I get the feeling our society caters too much for idiots.

-snip the brashness of youth-
</rant>

I remember having a rave very similar to this about twenty years ago, as justification for borrowing my mates RD350.

It worked.


He lent it to me.



I crashed about five minutes later through a combination of inexperience stupidity and overconfidence.

I still cringe to think of it...

[shcabbeh]

I don't really push the limits though, I just commute at the moment. I don't think over-confidence is a factor for me because I'm pretty scared of other motorists.

I've come close to plowing into the side of a jeep when they failed to give way but that's about as exciting as it gets. I just wish it was judged on more of an individual basis, that's all.

[Oscar]

I agree with Lou.
I wouldn't trust my 17yo son with a pair of scissors, but he wants his licence.
Motorcycle licences in NZ are too easy to get. The problem is not what size or power bike you can ride or how long you get a restricted licence. The problem is lack of rider training.

[Hitcher]

I don't really push the limits though, I just commute at the moment. I don't think over-confidence is a factor for me because I'm pretty scared of other motorists.
So you're saying you're actually pretty happy travelling no faster than 70kmh on a 250?

[Indiana_Jones]

The problem is lack of rider training.

Thus, my signature must be made a reality :D

-Indy

[shcabbeh]

So you're saying you're actually pretty happy travelling no faster than 70kmh on a 250?

I was talking generally, I don't try to speed for kicks etc. I'm on my restricted and do 100km/h in the 100km/h zones, but that's about it.


I wouldn't trust my 17yo son with a pair of scissors, but he wants his licence.
Motorcycle licences in NZ are too easy to get. The problem is not what size or power bike you can ride or how long you get a restricted licence. The problem is lack of rider training.

Yeah, exactly, they shouldn't substitute proper training for an amount of time after getting your licence.

[Gremlin]

I don't really push the limits though, I just commute at the moment. I don't think over-confidence is a factor for me because I'm pretty scared of other motorists.
Have you ever ridden in the country then?? Just got my restricted, but have been riding in the country and commuting interchangeably for most of the time.

I have found country and city riding to be completely different. For commuting, speeds are slower, roads are well known. For the country, roads are unknown initially (until you are F/F... :lol:), sometimes gravel/mud on the road. I reckon riding in the country adds an extra set of skills to your folder, like racing, dirt etc.

If you haven't, get out into the country before you get a bigger bike, to get used to getting out of sticky situations at higher speeds, coming into corners too hot and so on.

Basically, expose yourself to as many conditions as possible, to gain as much skill/experience as possible.

[Waylander]

Alternatively you could ove to the states for a while. But that would cost you heaps in airfair, place to stay, another motorbike there and gods know how much just dealing with immigration. (is it one M or two?)

Just deal with it mate. Some things you just cant change and can only make worse if you try to do something about it. Buy a cheap bike stay with it through your learners and restricted all the while saving up for the bike you really want then get that once you have your full. Simple.

[Karma]

Person A spends his 18 months between having his Restricted licence and his Full commuting to and from work. Person A is never in a situation where he or she needs to use skills to avoid a crash, never has encounters with bad drivers and goes on his merry way.

Person B crashes within the first three weeks, lives in a bad part of town with bad roads and drivers. Person B has experienced things in 3 weeks that Person A doesn't in his 18 months. Which has more experience?



Person A. You ever tried to commute in Auckland.. easy my arse. Besides, just because you have a crash and ride amongst bad drivers won't make you any better.


That'd save a lot of shit for the rest of us mature, safe and experienced drivers from being kept back by the system.

Bah, society's slowing me and others like me down to cater for stupid people...and I still have 11 months until I can get my full. Dumb.

</rant>

Those people that complain the most about being mature and skilled are usually the worst ones.

Rules are there for a reason... I'm happy you're being held back if it means that some other newbie dick doesn't get straight onto an R1 and cause an accident making me late for work.

[Korea]

I like the personal trainer idea, but there are too many bikers and not enough Rossi's to go around. Also extra $$$ and the licencing system is already pricey enough as it is for newbies.

Over to Korea: You may drive up to 125cc scooters, ped's, motorcycles on your car licence. Small bikes are popular and many students and delivery guys blast around with no helmet, no gloves, no boots, no brains...

If you want to ride something bigger you have to sit 'The Test'.

The Test is made up of four sections of riding in a carpark. You have to negotiate a 250cc feet-forward, cruiser-style bike (whether you plan to ride them or not) through a 1-metre wide set of right-angle corners, S-curve, slalom, and a straight section. If you touch the edge of the course twice, you fail.

To be honest, it's actually quite difficult. But has very little to do with real-world riding. Each testing day there are over 100 people and only 10 or so pass. But at $5 a pop it's not a big expense - just a hastle coming back another day.

Once you pass, you can go out and crash er... buy yourself an R1, Hayabusa, *insert stupendously quick bike here*.

[shcabbeh]

Have you ever ridden in the country then?? Just got my restricted, but have been riding in the country and commuting interchangeably for most of the time.

I have found country and city riding to be completely different. For commuting, speeds are slower, roads are well known. For the country, roads are unknown initially (until you are F/F... :lol:), sometimes gravel/mud on the road. I reckon riding in the country adds an extra set of skills to your folder, like racing, dirt etc.

If you haven't, get out into the country before you get a bigger bike, to get used to getting out of sticky situations at higher speeds, coming into corners too hot and so on.

Basically, expose yourself to as many conditions as possible, to gain as much skill/experience as possible.

I've had my fair share of country riding and yeah, I try to get out when it's raining/hailing etc for the experience. I'm saying I don't ride stupidly when I don't need to (which is always).


Just deal with it mate. Some things you just cant change and can only make worse if you try to do something about it. Buy a cheap bike stay with it through your learners and restricted all the while saving up for the bike you really want then get that once you have your full. Simple.

Yup, I am. I can't do anything about it anyway, just expressing ideals.


Person A. You ever tried to commute in Auckland.. easy my arse. Besides, just because you have a crash and ride amongst bad drivers won't make you any better.

It was a general example, I mean that it was comparing situations with the intention of making one out to be easier than the other. It wasn't a location specific example.

Also, I don't entirely agree. I think you can learn more if you've been in a crash than someone who hasn't. Just having the crash itself is experience, choosing whether or not to learn from that is another thing, but you can't learn without having experience.


Rules are there for a reason... I'm happy you're being held back if it means that some other newbie dick doesn't get straight onto an R1 and cause an accident making me late for work.

I'm not saying I'd rather have it so anyone can pass...quite the opposite. I'm saying it should be harder and not based on a time frame, but based on the assessed skill you have.

Oh and I never wanted this thread to be focused on me and my skill, more about how time allocated to riding doesn't necessarily mean you can gain more experience and that it's a bad system and should be changed. It's just a rant, don't think I'm gonna parade up and down the street with a banner and a cult saying "enough is enough" :P