Mmn, not quite the Christmas present I'd been asking for...

[Beemer]

This was in the news this morning - just in time to cheer us all up for Christmas! What annoys me is that if speed is a "contributing factor" (not the ONLY factor) in about 30% of fatal crashes, what on earth are they doing to target the 70% of fatal accidents that are caused by other factors?

Demerits double-up for holiday speedsters
20 November 2005
By HELEN BAIN

New police minister Annette King wants police to consider doubling driving demerit points during holiday periods to reduce speeding.


Police may also reduce the 10km/h "tolerance" above the speed limit allowed before drivers are given speeding tickets.

King says she has asked police to consider the demerit points plan as an innovative way to improve road safety.

And she may also introduce a second emergency phone number to reduce the number of unwanted calls to the 111 system.

Lower tolerance limits and higher demerits during holiday periods - when crash rates are usually higher than usual - have been used in some Australian states. The speeding tolerance can be as low as 3km/h over the speed limit.

If a driver in New Zealand gets more than 100 demerit points within two years, his or her licence is suspended for three months.

Drivers exceeding the speed limit by up to 10km/h receive 10 demerit points, for 11-20km/h over the limit 20 demerits, 21-30km/h 35 demerits, 31-35km/h 40 demerits, and 36km/h or more 50 demerits.

King said she had had several meetings with senior police to discuss how speeding and road deaths could be reduced, and she had asked them to come up with ideas to achieve that goal.

"I want some ideas, innovation and I suppose you would say common sense about how we achieve the goals we want, while also having wide public buy-in to what we are doing."

This year, 344 people have died on the roads - compared to 370 at the same time last year - and it appears unlikely that the goal of bringing the road toll below 300 by 2010 will be achieved.

Speed is identified as a contributing factor in about 30% of fatal crashes.

In its briefing to the incoming government, the Land Transport Safety Authority commented that it was seeing "diminishing returns from current interventions addressing speeding enforcement, road deaths and serious injuries".

Automobile Association motoring affairs manager Mike Noon said that if demerits were doubled during holiday periods, the move would have to be accompanied by widespread publicity to ensure it was an effective deterrent to speedsters.

NZ Autocar magazine editor Paul Owen did not think double demerits during holidays would make a significant difference to accident rates.

"The problem at holidays is more related to the fact that the roads are too crowded than it is to speed," he said

Ministry of Transport figures show that road deaths during the Christmas, Easter, Queen's Birthday and Labour weekends have declined over the past 10 years.

[Zed]

Let's hope the police consider it a wrong and unfair temporary solution to a problem that will probably never dramatically improve. She should be fired in other words. :msn-wink:

[Sketchy_Racer]

in the holidays it hardly ever is speed!! its to farking busy to get up to speed!! when will the stupid 'police' sort thier shit out and realize that "oh gosh the other 70% of contributing factors may need looking at to" like road SURFACE!! it is a huge contributing factor,

how can you expect you vehicle to keep traction while on the brakes when there is 60 miniature sized speed bumps in the road while it is trying to stop.
and the shit suspension that come out in cars standard is there to make it a smoother ride not stop any sooner. mabey they need to spend all the money the bastards taxed off of us for doing 111kph and spend it doing some thing better rather than paying helen clarks big fat paycheck!!!!!

i hate all of this

Glenn

[Coyote]

"oh gosh the other 70% of contributing factors may need looking at to" like road SURFACE!! it is a huge contributing factor,

There's no possible taxation involved with road surfaces as there isn't anything that you could say the public is doing illegal to it/on it (except maybe people smashing the tarmac as it's vandalism but how many people do that?)

[sAsLEX]

King says she has asked police to consider the demerit points plan as an innovative way to improve road safety.


Innovative, hold on I must of been on the p when I learnt what that word represented, it sure didn't mean copy someone elses idea!

[Beemer]

As far as I can see, this is a clear case of revenue collecting. Get a ticket for (possibly) being 3kms over the limit? Ridiculous. The thing is, there is no way in hell they can target or change the behaviour of those aggressive motorists who cannot sit in a line of traffic without passing everything in front of them. Despite the fact they rarely gain more than a few seconds, they just cannot help themselves and will pass on yellow lines, blind corners, when there is no room to pull in ahead, etc. Yes, speed IS a factor in SOME crashes, but to give out double demerit points at Christmas is just plain nasty! For many people, this is the only time they can take their holidays (many companies close over the holidays so you have no choice) and to penalise them when they pull out and finally overtake George and Mildred who have been doing 80kph through the windy parts and then speed up to 110 when they get to the passing lane is just pathetic.

I'm just glad we have the opportunity to take our holidays after Christmas when the roads are not so busy and the government is not so greedy! I thought that George Hawkins was useless, but Annette King is not inspiring any confidence with this kind of shit.

Oh, and if Ministry of Transport figures show that road deaths during the Christmas, Easter, Queen's Birthday and Labour weekends have declined over the past 10 years, then this is a great way to encourage people to continue doing what they've been doing. "You've been REALLY good over the past 10 years, so this year, as an incentive to continue driving safely, if you DARE go over the speed limit, we'll generously give you double demerit points so you won't do it again!"

[Ixion]

Speed and alcohol are the only two things the police will ever bother with, because they are the only two that can be measured. Doesn't matter how bad someone's driving is , if they're not speeding or drunk, there's nothing to measure, and the police will usually ignore it.(Apart from yes/no things like no wof, no rego, not wearing seat belt - once again, no judgement required)

Even if alcohol and speeding only accounted for 1% of the road toll, they are the only factors that politicians and police management will ever look at , because anything else requires a cop to use discretion. And that is a dirty word at police HQ.

[zadok]

They do it over here. They don't double the fine, just the demerits. So revenue collecting isn't the issue.
Beemer, did the article say they were doubling the fine as well? (my altzeimers has just kicked in)

[avgas]

i propose then that we pay half the tax over the holiday period, as most government officials do not work these times of the year - making the overheads less.....therefore requireing less income to support them.

[SPman]

What else do you expect from an intellectually and innovatively bankrupt beauracracy whose only ideas are second hand knee jerk reactions from overseas, that dont work particularly well in their countries of origin.
Just more of the same old easy quick fixes that, as Ixion said, can be easily quantified and measured by the beauracratic leaders with the single digit IQ's!

So - clean license - 86 k in a 50 k area (easy in lots of country and rural areas) - no license for 3 months?!
How to win the hearts and minds of the populace! Yeah, right!

[zadok]

As far as I can see, this is a clear case of revenue collecting. Get a ticket for (possibly) being 3kms over the limit? Ridiculous.
Just read the article again. It's only the demerits that are being doubled, not the fines. You may have a point if they reduce the tolerance, admittedly.

[Beemer]

Yes, it does appear it is just the demerits being doubled, but if they lower the tolerance from 11kms over to 3kms over, then a shitload of motorists will be ticketed - IF they have the resources to do so, that is.

That's basically like saying "we know the legal drinking limit is 400mcg (or whatever it is) but for the holidays we are going to lower this to 100mcg, so think twice before you have that second fruit mince pie..."

No doubt they will have cops positioned at all the dangerous spots as per usual, like the end of passing lanes, just over the brow of hills, hidden in bushes alongside straights, etc.

[Motu]

The speed tolerance thing is fairly recent,previously you would get done for 1 kph over - you wanna go back to the good old days,but not really eh? Most of our speedos read over,so if we stick to our own instruments it should be ok - 'cept for a couple of mine that have oversize wheels and tyres,with them 100kph really is.I think they will need better speed sign posting - all my speeding fines the last 10 yrs have been in change over areas,like coming into and leaving rural towns,this is where the cop hang out,easy pickings.

[crashe]

I recieved this email this morning, maybe this is why they are thinking of the changes... Yep this is only based on Auckland City... but what is it like around the rest of the country.


Alert 04:00 20-11-2005 Auckland City

Location of incident: Auckland City District & Motorways

Incident Type: Operation Early Bird - Drink Drive

A total of 108 drivers were processed for driving with excess breath alcohol and 30 elected blood tests. At this time of the morning drivers are a high risk due to fatigue. 9,082 vehicles were stopped. Fifteen who tested positive for excess breath alcohol were teenagers aged under 20. Several of the drivers caught during this operation returned a breath reading of over 1000. The permitted level is 400.
27 people were arrested including:

3 Stolen Vehicles
2 x possession of Drugs
3 x Disqualified drivers
6x Warrants to arrest
2x Offensive Weapons
1x Willful Damage
5 cars were impounded.

Police are very disappointed as these results show that the message is not getting through. There are options readily available so people don`t have to drink and drive. The price of a taxi, dial-a-driver, or having a sober driver are all a lot cheaper than being prosecuted for drink driving, and a lot easier to live with than killing or injuring someone.

Issued by: Inspector Barry Smalley

[Unit]

I still maintain bikes should have a different speed limit, they are a totally different vehicle and primarily are piloted by people with far more skills that those that are let loose in tintops.:hitcher:

[SPman]

I still maintain bikes should have a different speed limit, they are a totally different vehicle and primarily are piloted by people with far more skills that those that are let loose in tintops.:hitcher:
Bikes are classed as cars with 2 wheels. The fact they have entirely different dynamics and skill factors is irrelavent to the beauracrats! In an effective policing strategy, most local area cops know, who the worst offenders or likely offenders are in their patch, and used to be good at dealing with them - the 10% who incurred 90% of the incidents. Now, it is a blanket - everyone is guilty if they dont do EXACTLY what we say, strategy. The results of people being promoted or appointed to jobs above their level of ability!

[heavenly.talker]

So would not be impressed if doble demerit points were brought in over the holiday season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seems to be gettting more and more big brother everyday!

[WINJA]

So would not be impressed if doble demerit points were brought in over the holiday season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seems to be gettting more and more big brother everyday!
LOOKS LIKE RUNNERS WILL DOUBLE FOR THE HOLIDAY SEASON

[MSTRS]

The speed tolerance thing is fairly recent,previously you would get done for 1 kph over - you wanna go back to the good old days,but not really eh?
Not that I recall - unless it was before the early 70's, there was a 5mph tolerance to allow for inaccurate speedos.
And Beemer (penalise them when they pull out and finally overtake George and Mildred who have been doing 80kph through the windy parts and then speed up to 110 when they get to the passing lane is just pathetic.) How right you are, Speed is always a factor if the vehicle(s) involved were moving at all. If the speed was 'excessive' - I always wonder about the frustration that your scenario causes.

[kro]

What else do you expect from an intellectually and innovatively bankrupt beauracracy whose only ideas are second hand knee jerk reactions from overseas, that dont work particularly well in their countries of origin.
Just more of the same old easy quick fixes that, as Ixion said, can be easily


Oh my Goodness, I just fell in love with you. I'm no expert, but I believe you are extremely correct in what you say here. I see this on a daily basis in my line of work, where NZ "lawmakers" don't have the balls to start their own set of standards, based on whats right for NZ, but instead, adopt british and Australian standards, and try to make them work for us. It doesnt always work.

[Karma]

Surely they couldn't possably fine you for going 3k over the speed limit, or not in any zone above 30kph anyways.

I was under the impression that car / bike manufactuers can only gaurantee their speedos to +/- 10%, therefore the police cannot ticket you for going 110 in a 100 zone as this could be your speedo misreading by that amount, which is legally allowed by law.

[sAsLEX]

Surely they couldn't possably fine you for going 3k over the speed limit, or not in any zone above 30kph anyways.

I was under the impression that car / bike manufactuers can only gaurantee their speedos to +/- 10%, therefore the police cannot ticket you for going 110 in a 100 zone as this could be your speedo misreading by that amount, which is legally allowed by law.

they always make them over read though, so if you speedo says your doing 50 it more likely you are doing less than more, they do this to cover the small error they might have

[inlinefour]

I might as well stop driving/riding on the roads. I cannot maintian a perfect 100kph in the hilux, let alone on a motorcycle. Hopefully this will be identified as the large mound of elephant droppings that it actually is. I am aware that within parliment that multiple lame, lacking in common sense and intelligence, ideas are considered to become legislation. Hopefully it will be poohooed as it rightfully should.:bash:

[N4CR]

Hhmm.. had a laugh at the '15 teenagers in 108 total pulled over' statistic.

Firstly they have roughly a quater of the blood alcohol limit (easier to break) and secondly that is a pretty small proportion compared to how many will be driving. OH THATS RIGHT IT'S YOUTH BASHING TIME.. whoops sorry forgot that.
/rant

One way we can do something about this is give the legislators a taste of their own medicine - get a whole lot of cage clubs to go driving round at well under the limit 'god forbid we speed' and see what wonders it does for traffic flow. Anyone keen to do 25kmh around the beehive all day long?

[Karma]

Hhmm.. had a laugh at the '15 teenagers in 108 total pulled over' statistic.

Firstly they have roughly a quater of the blood alcohol limit (easier to break) and secondly that is a pretty small proportion compared to how many will be driving. OH THATS RIGHT IT'S YOUTH BASHING TIME.. whoops sorry forgot that.
/rant

One way we can do something about this is give the legislators a taste of their own medicine - get a whole lot of cage clubs to go driving round at well under the limit 'god forbid we speed' and see what wonders it does for traffic flow. Anyone keen to do 25kmh around the beehive all day long?

Mate, this is what I've been saying for a while.

Get a whole bunch of us just going up and down SH1 at around 40kph, taking up at least two of the lanes. That'll show em we're organised and serious at least. :rockon:

[Beemer]

I still maintain bikes should have a different speed limit, they are a totally different vehicle and primarily are piloted by people with far more skills that those that are let loose in tintops.:hitcher:

Is that why KB has so many threads entitled "I've just crashed!" - yeah, right!

[Lou Girardin]

Annette King wants innovation, so the Police copy Victoria. It doesn't work there either.:tugger:
Here's a thought, why doesn't Annette get David Parker, the Minister for Transport, to make the LTNZ develop proper, tough driving tests.
She could also get some of our roads fixed.

BTW Stalkers are only guaranteed to be +/- 1.5 km/h accurate.

[Colapop]

If I got busted (at 3 k's over) the first thing I would do is question the accuracy of the equipment both the measuing device and the speedo of the vehicle i'm driving/riding. I don't recall my speedo ever having been checked for a warrant of fitness. I think the reality is that these 'demerits' will only apply to speed camera fines and it will allow the government the ability to gather more revenue from speed cameras - that have not lowered the road toll as touted upon their introduction. What is ironic is that in today's Dom. Post there is an article about organised crime and it's growing influence here - they need more police to tackle it blah blah blah... The most interesting line in the article says that they will not have enough officers to enforce the government's "road safety" (revenue gathering - reading between the lines) campaign. To me this means that they are gearing up to move officers from road safety to organised crime postings and leave the revenue gathering to the speed cameras.

[madboy]

I'm 363cc behind WINJA - runners are the way of the future. It is the only way to maintain the pleasure of bike ownership but still keeping it affordable.

At the risk of sounding like a drone of all the previous posts... why oh why is it sooooooooooooooo hard for our govt to THINK. THINK. FFS THINK! I pay enough taxes to keep food (and booze/drugs/cigarettes) on the table for dumbass f***tard losers with no brains, I don't need any higher paid ones slipping into that same category too!

[Bartman10]

There might be a minor advantage here.

Yesterday, while I was travelling home from Taupo I saw three cops along the desert road... But lucky for me they had pulled three pricks in four wheel drive vehicles over, so I was able to go roaring past - no worries.

Had the speed tolerance been 20 kph over the limit, there is a higher chance that the arseholes in the 4x4's would not have been pulled over (e.g. if they were travelling at 115). This would have freed up police time to pull me over instead.

If the tolerance is 3 kph, but the police resourcing is not increased then the probability of you getting pulled over compared to having a tolerance at 10 kph is actually reduced, provided you normally ride at greater than 110 kph, because of the high number of tickets that the cops would be issuing.

If you normally travel 103 - 110 kph then the chance of getting ticketed will increase of course.

[TLRulz]

Bartman is on to it with less liklyhood of getting a ticket due to the cops being too busy issueing minor infringements.
The major problem has got to be driver skill I think, we need to train new drivers better for the just in case times, because the "just in case" situation is 100% garunteed to come about sometime during your driving life and with some education poeple might survive better, or avoid the situation in the first place by maybe driving slower for the situation. Why else have a campaign for "If the conditions change, reduce your speed" this should be part of basic driver training.
The second major factor has to be road condition as we all know well.

If this is the best ideas they have to slow people down, I think I would rather get double the fine, not double the demerits. At least then I'm not so liklely to loose my licence for an ordinary speed. Double the fine only hurts the pocket a bit, you can still get to work to pay it off.

[WINJA]

I'm 363cc behind WINJA - runners are the way of the future. It is the only way to maintain the pleasure of bike ownership but still keeping it affordable.

At the risk of sounding like a drone of all the previous posts... why oh why is it sooooooooooooooo hard for our govt to THINK. THINK. FFS THINK! I pay enough taxes to keep food (and booze/drugs/cigarettes) on the table for dumbass f***tard losers with no brains, I don't need any higher paid ones slipping into that same category too!
POLICE STATS OUT TODAY , 30 % OF PEOPLE THAT FLEE GET AWAY , I LIKE THOSE ODDS CONSIDERING IM ON A SUPERBIKE AND KNOW HOW TO USE IT AND THE ABOVE 30% INCLUDES PEOPLE IN CORTINAS AND TORANAS, SO MUCH FOR CANT OUTRUN MR MOTOROLLA

[SlashWylde]

I still maintain bikes should have a different speed limit, they are a totally different vehicle and primarily are piloted by people with far more skills that those that are let loose in tintops.:hitcher:

I whole heartedly agree.

And here's a question: If you hold a class 1(Car) licence and a class 6 (Bike) licence, and lets say you get done for 160kmh on the bike and lose said class 6 licence, do you lose the class one as well?

[SPman]

You lose the lot!

[SlashWylde]

Cunts...thought that'd be the case. Apparently doesn't matter that in that scenario one would be piloting a bike and NOT a car.

This is infact a purely hypothetical situation. I'm not alluding to anything personal regarding my licence status.

[madboy]

POLICE STATS OUT TODAY , 30 % OF PEOPLE THAT FLEE GET AWAY , I LIKE THOSE ODDS CONSIDERING IM ON A SUPERBIKE AND KNOW HOW TO USE IT AND THE ABOVE 30% INCLUDES PEOPLE IN CORTINAS AND TORANAS, SO MUCH FOR CANT OUTRUN MR MOTOROLLAReally? I'm surprised they admit that. Don't all the 5-0 on here say they get just about all of the runners? Must be we have superior 5-0 lurking on KB.

That 30% must also include 1.5 Honda Civics, AE86 Toyota Sprinters, Mitsi Sigma GSR-Xs, BFMR 323s, BG(?) 323s, Lancer GSRs, Mazda MX-5s... shit, how many other cars over the years? And it goes without saying that 400cc Yamahas and 636cc Kawasakis don't have ANY problems at all.

I can say that runners are getting tougher for the boys in blue since they've bought in the new pursuit procedures where they pull out when it gets too dangerous (unlike the good ole days when anything went!). Although it would seem that 200km/h into oncoming traffic is NOT dangerous enough to have a pursuit discontinued.

[WINJA]

Really? I'm surprised they admit that. Don't all the 5-0 on here say they get just about all of the runners? Must be we have superior 5-0 lurking on KB.

That 30% must also include 1.5 Honda Civics, AE86 Toyota Sprinters, Mitsi Sigma GSR-Xs, BFMR 323s, BG(?) 323s, Lancer GSRs, Mazda MX-5s... shit, how many other cars over the years? And it goes without saying that 400cc Yamahas and 636cc Kawasakis don't have ANY problems at all.

I can say that runners are getting tougher for the boys in blue since they've bought in the new pursuit procedures where they pull out when it gets too dangerous (unlike the good ole days when anything went!). Although it would seem that 200km/h into oncoming traffic is NOT dangerous enough to have a pursuit discontinued.
YOU SHOULD KNOW THE COPS ARE FULLA SHIT , A FEW YEARS AGO AN OFFICER WAS RUNNING HIS MOUTH OFF ABOUT HOW HE ALWAYS GETS HIS MAN AND THE PLACE JUST BURSTS INTO LAUGHTER , THERE MUSTA BEEN AT LEAST 3 GUYS THERE AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME THAT GOT AWAY FROM THIS PARTICULAR BIG MOUTH PIG

[madboy]

For God's sake, Winja, how many times do we have to tell you...

POLICE NEVER LIE !!!

[JohnR]

Lower tolerance limits and higher demerits during holiday periods - when crash rates are usually higher than usual - have been used in some Australian states. The speeding tolerance can be as low as 3km/h over the speed limit.



Doesn't say whether it worked or not though:doh:

[SPman]

If you call everyone driving around , staring intently at their speedos instead of the road and scared to go within 10k of the limit for fear of losing their licence working.......yes!
But they are so intent on looking at speedos, they tend to hit a lot of other things - but - no matter - if they were under the limit, they must have hit them safely!

[stanko]

Annette kings innovative idea of having an alternate number to the 111 is brilliant. Report everything !! make 20 calls a day, completly overload it. Its your civil duty to narc on bad road users, play their silly game.

This is the same Annette King whose daughter was out in the family car (which you paid for with your taxes) when she lost control and parked it on the roof. Feds found extacy , who is to say it wasnt the ministers ?

More speed Vicar !