New 'road safety' adverts

[Lou Girardin]

Who's seen the new LTSA ads? Bereaved relatives saying "if you're willing to speed, you're willing to kill".
Must be hundreds of thousands of kiwis out there willing to kill.
Trouble is, they don't.
Lou

[Zed]

Who's seen the new LTSA ads? Bereaved relatives saying "if you're willing to speed, you're willing to kill".
Must be hundreds of thousands of kiwis out there willing to kill.
Trouble is, they don't.
Lou
Sounds like the ad achieved it's marketing strategy with you though Lou?...got your attention anyway.

Most of those ads are over the top and some are made to intentionally shock the viewers! :shit:


Zed

[bungbung]

I think the point is ltsa are trying a 'makes you think' approach, rather than the old shock tactics. There is a radio ad playing at the moment, its a telephone call to an insurance company from a young fella trying to insure his car and being turned down due to his disqualification for speeding and his (young) age.

The crashing at speed approach to the old adverts didn't register with the boy racers 'what a dick, I can drive better than that, it won't happen to me'

But a lot of these guys have flash cars that need insuring...

[k14]

Yeah those ads are pretty lame i reckon. Cause according to them, everyone that has a licence is prepared to kill.

But i would have to say those are better than the "Toddy" adds. You know, the one with that boy racer guy that lost his licence for doing "120 down the main" and has to work at mcdonalds to pay the fines. Those ads are so funny, hope they make another one soon. :ar15:

[Lou Girardin]

Sounds like the ad achieved it's marketing strategy with you though Lou?...got your attention anyway.

Yeah, got my attention. Do you think I'll slow down?
The state once thought I was safe at any speed, nothing's changed!
I still decide what speed's safe.
Lou

[Coldkiwi]

kinda off topic in terms of speed, but I think the latest one of the bereaved mother was kinda sad really. Besides the fact that she lost her daughter the bit about 'I'll never, ever be able to forgive the person who did that' makes my skin crawl.
It's a tragedy for sure but trying to hold on to what has been taken away leaves people really bitter and empty in the long term.
honestly makes me sad to hear those words.

but like lou said, I'm still determining what speed is safe (normally motivated by not hitting anyone and other times driven by my fear of getting busted by plod)

[Jackrat]

Ok the woman who lost her child is an actor that will say what ever shes payed to.The bigist problem I have with most of these adds is simply that I don't like being lied to.We know thw road toll was coming down for years,we also know it had nothing to do with speed,,,,So why the bullshit.?
When did anybody hear a gov't or local body say they would lower the road toll by improving roads or with better driver Ed'.All the tear jerk adds in the world mean nothing without real gov't input and that we don't get.
Rather than have cops pinging people for speeding maybe their time would be better spent identifiying poor roads,Intersections,Motu's round about and bloody fixing them.I mean if people are being killed at a known danger spot,Wouldn't it be better to fix the bloody thing rather than hassle drivers who use the area.Shit in the States countys would be geting sued if they didn't fix a danger spot and then atempted to profit by it :angry2:

[SPman]

Agree with JR. The only adds that were worthwhile, were those ones with peter Brock, a few years ago, and they were more of a training/realisation approach.Going about "road safety" like fucking fascists is totally counter productive in the long run. And we all know what happened to Mussolini, dont we?

[Solarwind]

Agree with JR. The only adds that were worthwhile, were those ones with peter Brock, a few years ago, and they were more of a training/realisation approach.Going about "road safety" like fucking fascicts is totally counter productive in the long run. And we all know what happened to Mussolini, dont we?

Yeah, those ones with Brock were great, I'll never forget the motto, how did it go? "Only a ghoul eats the two second mule?" Yeah, that was it!

[Big Dog]

Agree with JR. The only adds that were worthwhile, were those ones with peter Brock, a few years ago, and they were more of a training/realisation approach.Going about "road safety" like fucking fascicts is totally counter productive in the long run. And we all know what happened to Mussolini, dont we?
They are clearly targeting the boy racers so how about confiscating a performance part with each ticketwhile under 25. It would make speeding f'g unlikely if toddy was going to lose the mags that were still on hp with mag and turbo. lol :finger:

[Hitcher]

Ok the woman who lost her child is an actor that will say what ever shes payed to.The bigist problem I have with most of these adds is simply that I don't like being lied to.We know thw road toll was coming down for years,we also know it had nothing to do with speed,,,,So why the bullshit.?
When did anybody hear a gov't or local body say they would lower the road toll by improving roads or with better driver Ed'.All the tear jerk adds in the world mean nothing without real gov't input and that we don't get.
Rather than have cops pinging people for speeding maybe their time would be better spent identifiying poor roads,Intersections,Motu's round about and bloody fixing them.I mean if people are being killed at a known danger spot,Wouldn't it be better to fix the bloody thing rather than hassle drivers who use the area.Shit in the States countys would be geting sued if they didn't fix a danger spot and then atempted to profit by it :angry2:

Go Jackster! There is significant abuse of statistics at play from our friends at the LTSA.

[Lou Girardin]

Ok the woman who lost her child is an actor that will say what ever shes payed to.:

The LTSA swear that they're real people.

BTW Why aren't there vehicle restrictions on learner drivers. A newbie biker is restricted to 250cc. Why then, can a 15 year old drive any car he likes?
What about a 100kw limit for 18 months?
Lou

[franco]

hmmmm.

One must ask, if we as a country / nation / socially responsible citizens were truly worried about abiding by law-imposed speed limits in the interest of applying road safe practices, why are we allowed to purchase vehicles (cars, trucks and bikes) which can so easily exceed those limits? Not by 10-20kph, but by 100-150+ kph?

Why? Why? Wouldn't it be easier for the government to pass some form of legislation to inhibit/restrict our vehicles to predetermined speeds? Wouldn't this be more effective than an advertising campaign that is attempting to change basic human nature/ behaviour (more speed, more power, regardless of consequence...).

I'm not advocating this. What sad lives we would live, and I'd hate it just like everyone else. Just curious. I'm sure the question has been raised, debated and forgotton several times before now...

[wkid_one]

I think the point is ltsa are trying a 'makes you think' approach, rather than the old shock tactics. There is a radio ad playing at the moment, its a telephone call to an insurance company from a young fella trying to insure his car and being turned down due to his disqualification for speeding and his (young) age.

The crashing at speed approach to the old adverts didn't register with the boy racers 'what a dick, I can drive better than that, it won't happen to me'

But a lot of these guys have flash cars that need insuring...
I don't know if it is the 'makes you think' campaign so much as guilt through commonality. By showing everyday people affected by speeding - we are suddenly supposed to see the impact speeding has on the community. However the fact of the matter is, I travelled 400km+ today and I did speed at times - AND I DIDN'T KILL ANYONE (other than the odd bug).

Given the number of accidents as a ratio of kilometres travelled - speeding is one of NZ's smallest killers. Heart Disease etc etc is by far a greater killer.

400 odd deaths - with X million registered vehicles and X tens of millions of kilometres travelled in vehicles every year is hardly a bad statistic. Yet only a PORTION of these are attributeable to speed - not all of them.

Waste of money doing adverts of speeding.....

[riffer]

400 odd deaths...
which is less than how many die from the pollution caused by badly tuned motor vehicles, or so they would have had you believe in one of their earlier crusades against smokey cars.

[Solarwind]

Why? Why? Wouldn't it be easier for the government to pass some form of legislation to inhibit/restrict our vehicles to predetermined speeds? Wouldn't this be more effective than an advertising campaign that is attempting to change basic human nature/ behaviour (more speed, more power, regardless of consequence...).

I'm not advocating this. What sad lives we would live, and I'd hate it just like everyone else. Just curious. I'm sure the question has been raised, debated and forgotton several times before now...

Because they'd be a bit red-faced after a huge surge in road deaths from people trying to overtake and not being able to exceed 100kph, and ending up smashing into oncoming traffic. Is it that police are too stupid to realise that speeding isn't a black and white issue (i.e. the quicker you complete your overtaking the safer it is), or that they think we're too stupid to understand?

[franco]

Because they'd be a bit red-faced after a huge surge in road deaths from people trying to overtake and not being able to exceed 100kph, and ending up smashing into oncoming traffic


Phew! Thanks solar - I knew there was a good reason. I can sleep easy now... :shifty:

[wkid_one]

Because they'd be a bit red-faced after a huge surge in road deaths from people trying to overtake and not being able to exceed 100kph, and ending up smashing into oncoming traffic. Is it that police are too stupid to realise that speeding isn't a black and white issue (i.e. the quicker you complete your overtaking the safer it is), or that they think we're too stupid to understand?
Many Line Haul companies govern their trucks to 100kph

[Jackrat]

hmmmm.

One must ask, if we as a country / nation / socially responsible citizens were truly worried about abiding by law-imposed speed limits in the interest of applying road safe practices, why are we allowed to purchase vehicles (cars, trucks and bikes) which can so easily exceed those limits? Not by 10-20kph, but by 100-150+ kph?

Why? Why? Wouldn't it be easier for the government to pass some form of legislation to inhibit/restrict our vehicles to predetermined speeds? Wouldn't this be more effective than an advertising campaign that is attempting to change basic human nature/ behaviour (more speed, more power, regardless of consequence...).

I'm not advocating this. What sad lives we would live, and I'd hate it just like everyone else. Just curious. I'm sure the question has been raised, debated and forgotton several times before now...

Yeah good point Franco,I am sure that it will happen in time.
When I lived in OZ all the trucks that I dealt with had recording devices on board,They were hooked into a GPS system as well,The boss could see were and how the truck was being driven simply by siting down in front of a PC.
These things were put in place to monitor engine time and performace but you can see the potentual for other things.South OZ also thas Safty cameras
on main high ways that monitor your passing once and then again 100km later,Then you get a nice little letter from the man if youv'e been a bad boy, All in the name of safty of course.With the tech available now each car could be fited with a GPS and imobiliser,Wouldn't that be fun,you go 111km and your car stops then you get a fine just to rub it in.Sound like a George Orwell nitemare?.Well they are doing tests in the UK and France now.
I reckon the reason it isn't discussed more now is because it's to scary.

[wkid_one]

Yeah good point Franco,I am sure that it will happen in time.
When I lived in OZ all the trucks that I dealt with had recording devices on board,They were hooked into a GPS system as well,The boss could see were and how the truck was being driven simply by siting down in front of a PC.
These things were put in place to monitor engine time and performace but you can see the potentual for other things.South OZ also thas Safty cameras
on main high ways that monitor your passing once and then again 100km later,Then you get a nice little letter from the man if youv'e been a bad boy, All in the name of safty of course.With the tech available now each car could be fited with a GPS and imobiliser,Wouldn't that be fun,you go 111km and your car stops then you get a fine just to rub it in.Sound like a George Orwell nitemare?.Well they are doing tests in the UK and France now.
I reckon the reason it isn't discussed more now is because it's to scary.
LOL - same system has just been presented to the Road Transport Association in NZ in October last year and some companies in NZ look likely to take this up. As it is - many owners of rigs who employ drivers run a similar black box that can be, when needed, pulled from the rig and the information downloaded to obtain the information.

[Coldkiwi]

oh yes.. and did anyone mention it would root a good section of our nations economy? who's going to by a turboed WRX etc that can't go over 100kmhr? not me... I'll save my cash for a lounge suite and by a nice practical Dihatsu Pyzar.

*BING* there goes the entire aftermarket auto, performance, racing, importing and tuning industry. I bet that'd win them votes.

[wkid_one]

oh yes.. and did anyone mention it would root a good section of our nations economy? who's going to by a turboed WRX etc that can't go over 100kmhr? not me... I'll save my cash for a lounge suite and by a nice practical Dihatsu Pyzar.

*BING* there goes the entire aftermarket auto, performance, racing, importing and tuning industry. I bet that'd win them votes.
Interesing thing is that many young kids CAN'T get insurance in WRX's and the like. The only place that will insure in the National Car Club.......makes me wonder how they afford it....mind you, $200pw for the car finance, $19 per week for the car stereo HP, $12.57 per week for the wheel package HP etc etc.

For starters it should be mandatory for every vehicle on the road to be insured.....

Secondly - if they are serious about speeding - our fines are RIDICULOUS...too low to be a disincentive. Ramp them up if they wish to discourage speeding.

Thirdly - the law of diminishing returns applies here. They are wasting money - as with increasing vehicle registrations etc - you can't expect the toll to go down thru ticketing alone.

Forthly - the Government is too blame. To have a national motorway between your major metropolitan cities which is a 2 lane goat track with no centre median, no run off, no internal or external crash barriers, irregular road surfaces, transitions through rural towns, stock crossings, LEVEL crossing, etc - is asking for trouble.

Fifthly - NZ's mentality to driving....we are shockers on the road. Just having an ad that says - please don't speed or my daughter will die - is stupid. We have already given the gherkins the fucken license. Address the problem at the source - ie driver education.

AND - why the HELL would the government forgo such a lucrative source of revenue anyway? :puke: :puke:

[James Deuce]

ROCK ON BROTHER

[Deano]

I agree with JR also - has anyone questioned how so many incompetant drivers are issued with licences each year.

It is more of a rite of passage whereby once u reach the legal driving age,you are entitled to become a bloody menace on the road.

Personally, I feel I can ride safer at 160km/h than most cagers at 80km//h, yet when do you see someone dickhead pulled over for following too close, failing to indicate or any number of INCOMPETANT things that cause accidents. Is the accident actually granting some of these idiots a licence in the first place.

The LTSA are a bunch of narrow minded bureaucrats pandering to political correctness - I had a huge debate with them when they tried to overregulate braided brake lines, even though the brake line specs were listed as up to DOT standards in the road traffic reg's 1976.

In fact, on a slightly different issue, the police have always had powers to require a noise test for modified vehicles - so all this BOY RACER legislation over noisy vehicles was always there, but NEVER regulated, therefore the government adopts new legislation, so they can say to the public " we have acted as per your concerns", but regulation is left for a few to be made examples of, and they hope that the general public will take notice and follow suit (a bit of media hype never goes astray either).

The exact same thing has happened with dog control laws....but Im starting to rambling now..................

[Lou Girardin]

If they introduce downloadable vehicle info systems, how long will it take to have countermeasures available?
Weeks or months?
Lou

[Motoracer]

Just watched that add and SCU now. Add kinda works for me as it makes me kinda feel bad... But what works even more on me is watching SCU. Then you get to find out more about the victim's lives and I think to myself "Na, I don't want to do that to someone".

[SPman]

Then you get to find out more about the victim's lives and I think to myself "Na, I don't want to do that to someone".Only a complete nimrod wants to do that to someone. The trouble is, short of banning all motorised transportation.......make that ALL transportation, someone, somewhere IS going to do it, willing or not.
Like all of life, its all about playing the percentages. Life is hazardous and fragile and always has been. Shit no one wants themselves or their loved ones to die or be maimed, but, inevitably, in a complex, intermingling society, it is going to happen. And continual bludgeoning of those who know how to maximise chances along with those who don't, will never be as productive as targeting, educating or training those who dont. But, thats too hard and complex - takes too much skill, too much money and resources - you gotta spend time and money to get a result instead of receive money to get a lesser result!
Whats that expression - "Lies, damn lies and statistics!
LTSA - fuckin dickheads!
:angry2:

[Milky]

There seems to be a huge misappropriation of funds and time into the whole LTSA system... When i got the R65 rego'd and vinned a couple of days back, they wanted a piece of paper from someone else, certifying that the brakes were up to scratch... they didnt test them at all, and i know this because when we got the bike home to check the ovality etc etc there was grease over the inside of the rear drum - a result of cleaning and relubing the splines a bit too much... seems they are not interested in how safe the bike is, but in how to cover their asses if there is a crash at anytime in the future. :thud:

The swingarm had loosened up in transportation for some reason, and there was slop in the whole rear wheel, which we noticed when the rear drum was being cleaned/measured. This all happened after the vin/cof was given, but before the rego could be processed... all wthout obviously looking at the bike at all. I imagine if there had been incorrectly adjusted steering head bearings that would have been passed by without a second thought at all. :shit:

NB: the bike is in good working order now and all joints/bolts have been rechecked and retorqued up. i think the problem was short swingarm pinch bolts, when they should have been long ones, but it seemed fine at trial and final assembly stages. Maybe it was just one of those things :o

Personally, I would like to see the driver licensing situation much more like that in Germany, where a certain number of hours must be logged with an instructor before u can get your license... this way people will be more likely to know how to drive/ride BEFORE they get out onto the roads

anyway... enough from me

~milky

[Motoracer]

Like you said, no one really wants to do that but most of the time people don't realise or they are on denial about the aftermath of a crash resulting from speed. It may seem really obvious but sometimes it just takes one of them really out off it things to get to a person. eg. "if you speed, you are out to kill". To me, it made me think "holly shit, they might be on to something here"

And if this thing got to a few more people, thoes people will reduce their speed thus the chances of a crash resulting from speed will be reduced for thoes people and the people around them.

I think the add is effective on some people. (I am very tired and sleepy, if this didn't make sence, sorry. Off I go to sleep now).

[Lou Girardin]

Just watched that add and SCU now. Add kinda works for me as it makes me kinda feel bad... But what works even more on me is watching SCU. Then you get to find out more about the victim's lives and I think to myself "Na, I don't want to do that to someone".

You're falling into the trap of listening to half the story. There's always other factors to these accidents, but the traffic nazis don't admit that.
If you know what you're doing and are careful doing it, there's no reason why you can't travel quickly without risking anyone's safety.
Half the of the rest of the world manages it.
Lou

[Kickaha]

If you know what you're doing and are careful doing it, there's no reason why you can't travel quickly without risking anyone's safety.
Half the of the rest of the world manages it.
Lou

Spot on, but who is it that decides which of us are are those that who know what they're doing,I know a whole bunch of people who speed and consider themselves "good" drivers but I'd be reluctant to get in a car or ride with them.

After all how many people do you ever hear saying "I'm a crap driver" absolutely no one,everyone thinks they're the next Rossi or Brock and seems to drive or ride accordingly.

Never mind that there are other countries with higher limits and have a lower accident rates,I'm sure its nothing to do with our roading system or driver education.

[Motoracer]

Ok..... leave every thing aside. If everyone goes at the speed limit, isn't every one going to be safer? Sure, I am aware all about being able to do 160k on a 65-75k very safely or do 200+ks on a emty back road with virtually no problems etc but like Kickaha said, who is going to say who is going to be safe enough to go over the speed limit?

We are like a bunch of sheeps (is it bunch or herd or something else? n/m) to the cops. No matter how bright each individual maybe (sheeps aren't bright but its just an eg), all have to be barked upon and chased around to have some control over the level of safety on our roads. Thus all of us will be treated the same when we are caught going over the speed limit cause they (cops) don't know who is a good driver or who is an idiot.

The key here I reckon IS speed. There are lots of other factors that causes accidents. However at lower speeds, these other factors may not be a threat.

I am no boyscout (used to be but anyway), I will go over the legal speed limit but still stay within my safe limits (on the road). All I am saying is that their strong approch to get people to slow down is justified IMO.

[Zed]

We are like a bunch of sheeps (is it bunch or herd or something else? n/m) to the cops. No matter how bright each individual maybe (sheeps aren't bright but its just an eg),
Psalms 78:52 But made his own people to go forth like sheep,
and guided them in the wilderness like a flock.



I am no boyscout (used to be but anyway), I will go over the legal speed limit but still stay within my safe limits (on the road). All I am saying is that their strong approch to get people to slow down is justified IMO.

I agree with you there Motoracer! :niceone:


Zed

[Jackrat]

Hell if you take all the adds about what is going to kill you,and put them altogeather,By rights we are all buggered anyway.Vehicule fumes,second hand smoke,first hand smoke,speeding,legal drugs,illegal drugs,Medical incompetance,HIV,Hepititis,The next flash strain of Flu,Weapons of mass distruction,Boy racers,Gangs,Alcohol,Asian drivers,Storms,floods,Helen fucking Clarke,Winston Bloody Peters,Stress,sin,cheating on your income tax,
Bugger that,I think I'll go for a ride and trash the guts out of it. :sweatdrop

[Zed]

Hell if you take all the adds about what is going to kill you,and put them altogeather,By rights we are all buggered anyway.Vehicule fumes,second hand smoke,first hand smoke,speeding,legal drugs,illegal drugs,Medical incompetance,HIV,Hepititis,The next flash strain of Flu,Weapons of mass distruction,Boy racers,Gangs,Alcohol,Asian drivers,Storms,floods,Helen fucking Clarke,Winston Bloody Peters,Stress,sin,cheating on your income tax,
Bugger that,I think I'll go for a ride and trash the guts out of it. :sweatdrop
They don't have any speed limits in Waiuku yet do they? I thought it was still horse & cart transportation there...apart from the odd hoon on 2 wheels!

[Deano]

There seems to be a huge misappropriation of funds and time into the whole LTSA system... When i got the R65 rego'd and vinned a couple of days back, they wanted a piece of paper from someone else, certifying that the brakes were up to scratch... they didnt test them at all, and i know this because when we got the bike home to check the ovality etc etc there was grease over the inside of the rear drum - a result of cleaning and relubing the splines a bit too much... seems they are not interested in how safe the bike is, but in how to cover their asses if there is a crash at anytime in the future. :thud:

The swingarm had loosened up in transportation for some reason, and there was slop in the whole rear wheel, which we noticed when the rear drum was being cleaned/measured. This all happened after the vin/cof was given, but before the rego could be processed... all wthout obviously looking at the bike at all. I imagine if there had been incorrectly adjusted steering head bearings that would have been passed by without a second thought at all. :shit:

NB: the bike is in good working order now and all joints/bolts have been rechecked and retorqued up. i think the problem was short swingarm pinch bolts, when they should have been long ones, but it seemed fine at trial and final assembly stages. Maybe it was just one of those things :o

Personally, I would like to see the driver licensing situation much more like that in Germany, where a certain number of hours must be logged with an instructor before u can get your license... this way people will be more likely to know how to drive/ride BEFORE they get out onto the roads

anyway... enough from me

~milky

Fully - I heard that when a mechanic does their initial Accreditation, in order to carry out WOF checks and issue them, they spend about 2 hours going over a vehicle in front of the LTSA Officer........how long do they spend when actually doing the checks...30 minutes max.

Its all a facade. The mechanic who WOF'ed my old Duke didn't even look at the frame or swingarm for cracks, which was a common problem I thought he would have known about (this place does all the dukes for the local franchise).

He then asked if the braided brake lines were standard - I did a double take and said no :doh:

Im sure if I said yes he would have accepted my word for it. A quick nip around the block, lights etc, wheel bearings and it was all over in 10 minutes.

What a rort.

[Lou Girardin]

So, judging from some of the posts, we have to assume that NZer's are inherently more stupid than, say, Germans and we can't be trained to be better drivers. The LTSA must think so, they have no faith in driver training and think that we must be beaten into submission.
Lou

[Motoracer]

I agree with you Lou. To nip the matter in the bud so to speak, spending more funds in the driver licencing system to better train the future drivers/riders on our roads might just be the best idea yet. Then that would be damage prevention rather than just damage control with the speeding adds.

[franco]

just more rambling thoughts about changing the way people behave...

There seems to be consensus that better driver education would be more effective than advertising campaigns and abitrary fines.

At the risk of suggesting unpopular ideas, what about a more stringent relicensing programme for all drivers? Not as a user-pays money making scheme, but from a continuous assessment of your driving skills and aptitude (and dare I say it - attitudes) perspective. Like once every 2 or 3 years you have to resit some form of practical riding / driving / roadcraft test.

That way, we reinforce the message that having a licence to drive a vehicle amongst others is a priveledge to be respected, not a right to be defended...?

[Hitcher]

just more rambling thoughts about changing the way people behave...

There seems to be consensus that better driver education would be more effective than advertising campaigns and abitrary fines.

At the risk of suggesting unpopular ideas, what about a more stringent relicensing programme for all drivers? Not as a user-pays money making scheme, but from a continuous assessment of your driving skills and aptitude (and dare I say it - attitudes) perspective. Like once every 2 or 3 years you have to resit some form of practical riding / driving / roadcraft test.

That way, we reinforce the message that having a licence to drive a vehicle amongst others is a priveledge to be respected, not a right to be defended...?

I agree with you Franco, although at an interval of five years to coincide with current license renewal requirements could be simpler.

I got cut off last night riding up The Terrace by some bint in a RAV4 who was busy sending a text message on her cellphone at the time. I had a whack at her mirror but just missed...

[SPman]

just more rambling thoughts about changing the way people behave...
There seems to be consensus that better driver education would be more effective than advertising campaigns and abitrary fines.

At the risk of suggesting unpopular ideas, what about a more stringent relicensing programme for all drivers? Not as a user-pays money making scheme, but from a continuous assessment of your driving skills and aptitude (and dare I say it - attitudes) perspective. Like once every 2 or 3 years you have to resit some form of practical riding / driving / roadcraft test.

That way, we reinforce the message that having a licence to drive a vehicle amongst others is a priveledge to be respected, not a right to be defended...?
Good idea, but.....it would cost them money, they would have to actually do something (set up systems, training centres, organise testers etc)
Also, people are on, generally, their best behaviour in these situations.
A drivers "wof" is a good idea, short of reassessing every driver in the country from scratch, but theyve got to start training drivers properly...giving them the basic initial skills and attitudes when they first get their licences, and following it up with a further training, to a stage where drivers have some confidence in the ability of the vehicle, what it will and will not do - proper skid pad training etc.
But if they did, they would somehow totally cock the whole thing up anyway, in best NZ bureaucratic tradition!

Do I sound cynical here?:no:

[Motoracer]

One good example of Training vs slow down advets is:

Do you guys remember that one when the dude in the ford telstar runs over the little girl in the trike when he fails to stop in time. At the end of the advert he says "she was only 4 and...*sob* *sob* I KILLED HER!". Well, if only he had proper training (just a 1 dayer deffensive driver training course), he could have stop in time by using the pulse brakeing method.

I have watched Targa rally many times and I get shocked in horror as some of these guys who are racing lock up their brakes for miles and end up upside down in a ditch.

Training is so desperatly required for most people out there. I don't know if you guys are aware of this but there is a program up and running called "Pro drive". They go around schools and give a deffensive driver training course to any interested students with at least a learners licence for free! Its briliant and its definetly a step in the right direction.

[Lou Girardin]

That's what we need, Franco. It used to be a laugh a minute in my driver testing days, when people came in for court ordered tests. They were in a cold sweat trying to remember the correct way of driving. A 5 yearly test would be a wake up call.
Lou

[SPman]

. I don't know if you guys are aware of this but there is a program up and running called "Pro drive". They go around schools and give a deffensive driver training course to any interested students with at least a learners licence for free! Its briliant and its definetly a step in the right direction.
The Pro drive course is really good! Set up by John Osborne when he was recovering from bad injuries after totalling a ...RX7 V8 I think...at Pukekohe.
Its a bit more than just a "Defensive driving course".
The official DD course is a bit of a joke really, but its better than nothing.

[wkid_one]

Here is an interesting stat from the LTSA website - it states in black and white that speeding contributes to 30 (yes only 30) per year (HERE (http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/factsheets/33.html))

Why all the fuss then?? More people get killed in home invasions/abduction/assaults etc - yet the police force is soooo inundated with traffic issues these go largely by the by - for what - to get 30 down to 29, or 28.

So out of 400 deaths on the road (which is still a bloody low number) - they gave decided to focus on speeding because it is the majority incident? Hold on - it makes up 12.5% of the road toll - doesn't make sense to me.

It also is a contributing factor in only 15% of injuries??

[Motoracer]

Here is an interesting stat from the LTSA website - it states in black and white that speeding contributes to 30 (yes only 30) deaths per year (HERE (http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/factsheets/33.html))

Why all the fuss then?? More people get killed in home invasions/abduction/assaults etc - yet the police force is soooo inundated with traffic issues these go largely by the by - for what - to get 30 deaths down to 29, or 28.

So out of 400 deaths on the road (which is still a bloody low number) - they gave decided to focus on speeding because it is the majority incident? Hold on - it makes up 12.5% of the road toll - doesn't make sense to me.

It also is a contributing factor in only 15% of injuries??


Sorry to correct you there Wkid but on that site, it says 30% of the road deaths are contributed by speed. Not 30 deaths. Still a lot lower than what I had expected...

[wkid_one]

Whoopsthats what I meant.....too much Friday afternooon beverages I guess

[Deano]

Anyway, its not speed that kills, its stopping...

[Jackrat]

They don't have any speed limits in Waiuku yet do they? I thought it was still horse & cart transportation there...apart from the odd hoon on 2 wheels!
Errrr,Don't you mean old hoon on two wheels :2thumbsup
Gee,I havn't been called a hoon in years,,Thanks

[Motu]

Fully - I heard that when a mechanic does their initial Accreditation, in order to carry out WOF checks and issue them, they spend about 2 hours going over a vehicle in front of the LTSA Officer........how long do they spend when actually doing the checks...30 minutes max.

Its all a facade. The mechanic who WOF'ed my old Duke didn't even look at the frame or swingarm for cracks, which was a common problem I thought he would have known about (this place does all the dukes for the local franchise).

He then asked if the braided brake lines were standard - I did a double take and said no :doh:

Im sure if I said yes he would have accepted my word for it. A quick nip around the block, lights etc, wheel bearings and it was all over in 10 minutes.

What a rort.

Yep - I'm having my ''revue'' in a couple of weeks...the LTSA dude will spend about 5hrs with me - at $145 per hour,paid up front please.I will be tested on a car with him watching,and yes,it will take me at least 2 hrs to do the WoF test,hope he doesn't want to see me do a bike as well...that would take another $145!

To do it ''by the book'' yes,it would take at least 2 hrs for a car and 1hr for a bike - and yet LTSA tells us we should be able to do a car WoF in 20mins! So,um,yes...we ''miss'' a few things OK?

Oh,you would like a more complete check? no problem....but would you pay for it?

[wkid_one]

Still $30 for 20 mins work is a good hourly rate

Watching SCU last nite - that Prelude that killed the car in the Primera should have NEVER have been on the road. It was obviously a cut and tuck car.

[Two Smoker]

Still $30 for 20 mins work is a good hourly rate

Watching SCU last nite - that Prelude that killed the car in the Primera should have NEVER have been on the road. It was obviously a cut and tuck car.
Sure was and what was up with the 50psi in the tyres on one side? Maybe there needs to be a crack down on cars and bikes that are obviously not up to warrant of fitness standard. Im sure those death traps kill people because of inadequite handling and braking, add a bit of speed mixed together with poor driving or riding skills. As everyone has been saying. It isnt the speed that is killing, it is the poor driving skills and standard of cars.

[wkid_one]

I know - bloody high reading considering most manu reco 32psi.

[Deano]

Yep - I'm having my ''revue'' in a couple of weeks...the LTSA dude will spend about 5hrs with me - at $145 per hour,paid up front please.I will be tested on a car with him watching,and yes,it will take me at least 2 hrs to do the WoF test,hope he doesn't want to see me do a bike as well...that would take another $145!

To do it ''by the book'' yes,it would take at least 2 hrs for a car and 1hr for a bike - and yet LTSA tells us we should be able to do a car WoF in 20mins! So,um,yes...we ''miss'' a few things OK?

Oh,you would like a more complete check? no problem....but would you pay for it?

Motu,

my beef is more with LTSA beuraucrats than mechanics, but I didn't appreciate the stuff around I got from by VINZ at a WOF check for my 'old' duke. As I said, my braided brake lines met the Road Traffic Regulations 1976 (Dot something or other), but the mechanic said to prove it, so I had to get faxes from the suppliers. The new (at the time) WOF guidelines were ambiguous, and I guess he was covering his arse. The new braided lines were put on to prevent brake fade at Manfeild and had worked a treat for months. The fittings were already preassembled from the supplier, as I understand that the LTSA concern was the type of braided lines that you crimped yourself (some ruptured).

I would hope that the "few things missed" you mention are only minor, as I would expect a lot of people rely on WOF's as a measure of the standard of roadworthiness of the vehicle, but I prefer to do most of my maintenance (or mechanic mate) anyway.

Good luck with the revue, the fees charged by the LTSA are a rort, but I see that all the time in my line of work as well (govenment agency also).

Here is an anomoly - How come Transit can accept money for billboard advertising, yet LTSA say that crosses, and some other assorted signage are distracting to drivers - in fact the billboards used to advertise alcohol - not sure if they still do, will check next time Im out.

Its a great world that we live in. :done:

[wkid_one]

THis has further reaching implications in the event of an accident. If you car is deemed to be outside warrantable standard when it has an accident - your insurance company can choose not to pay out. Now - I would see you would have trouble convincing a court of law that the defect was infact missed by the 2 hr check condensed in to 20 mins completed at your regular warrant - where in actual fact it could have been missed/omitted/over looked.

[Deano]

Did that Honda Prelude from SCU have a WOF ? Imagine if the front hadn't of sheared off -the impact would have been harder right ?

[wkid_one]

Yep - scary thought as there was much left of either car anyway.

Did they ever say what speed they estimated he was doing?

Deano - you got the Red and Black SP yeah? Were you at Kapiti Lights the other week?

[Two Smoker]

Did that Honda Prelude from SCU have a WOF ? Imagine if the front hadn't of sheared off -the impact would have been harder right ?
Yep that car probably didnt have a WOF. If the front of thar car hadn't been sheared off the impact will still have been the same just the result of where the engine is in relation to the car would be different.

Im sure if the car was up to WOF standards the likelihood of the crash happeneing would have been lower. But a licenced driver with decent training also would have reduced the chances of the crash.

The problem is there is so many variables, but the main variables that contribute are the environment, the car WOF and the Driver skill.

Therefore a to solve it, Roads would have to be improved (especially in known bad spots), Warrant Checks should be done at the same time as breath testing as well as a harder crack down on WOF's (ie police pulling over dodgy vehicles) and a harder Driver Licencing Proceedure should be put inforce as well as a sort of Re-licencing proceedure every so often

Sorry that was a bit more than 5 cents worth... more like $1.30's worth

[Two Smoker]

Oh the estimated speed was 110kmh at the point of impact (of ther prelude). and assuming the other car was doing 70kmh thats a closing speed of 180kmh

Who would want to hit a brick wall at 180kmh:shit:

[Deano]

Therefore a to solve it, Roads would have to be improved (especially in known bad spots),

That sux, look at Kaitoke - straightening the roads takes all the fun away - unless you like straight roads of course haha

[marty]

Sorry to correct you there Wkid but on that site, it says 30% of the road deaths are contributed by speed. Not 30 deaths. Still a lot lower than what I had expected...

i think there was 57 homicides in NZ last year. there were many more than 57 deaths that could be attributed to speed.

[Lou Girardin]

TRRL in the UK have done REAL research that showed 7.3% of fatalities were directly attributable to excess speed.
Lou

[Motu]

I think you guys are missing the whole point with a WoF - It's not FOR 6 months - we are checking the condition of the vehicle from the last test until NOW ,this very moment that we are testing the vehicle,once the vehicle leaves our premises it is YOUR responsability to KEEP it up to WoF standards.It is a visual inspection only ,we don't put on our Xray glasses,no invasive proceedures are employed - and it is up to YOU to prove us wrong if we question something about your vehicle...if I suspect your braided brake lines are not manufactured in acordance to blah,blah,blah...then you supply the proof - or pay me for my time to find out for you.The things we miss are mainly just standards markings on seatbelts,glazing,lamps tyres etc,but yeah there's a whole heap of stuff we can't look at....it called experiance,our call whether we look closer or ignore - I think it's like being a detective....sniff,sniff...AH HA!!! GOTCHA!!!!

$30 an hr?...that'd be nice,a hell of a lot of costs go into a Wof,not many recovered,we do them at a loss and just hope we pick up some work - the cheaper the Wof test the less likely you are to pass,they use the cheap price to get you in.

[SPman]

TRRL in the UK have done REAL research that showed 7.3% of fatalities were directly attributable to excess speed.
Lou Part of the problem, is that there is no REAL, impartial, research done into the whole road accident, cause/effect thing , in NZ. A few partial studies to justify points of view!

I believe Mercedes Benz has a specialist unit that investigates the cause of every serious crash involving an M B in Europe. They spend more on research into cause than most countries - but its all mainly in-house. :(

[Milky]

Based on your replies, i take it that you do WoF inspections motu... Do u have a quota system or unwritten rule that says you have to fail a certain percentage of people who get checks done?

It is just that with remarkably similar problems i have seen cars driven by young 'uns such as myself fail, whereas the cars/bikes taken in by 'respectable' people, such as cops, mechanics, car fanatics etc pass without a second thought.

And since when did the age of the car determine how much rain must be removed from the window??? i had a mate fail on the high speed window wipers for his galant, but on our old Vauxhall we didnt have dual speed wipers and never failed on them not being there

~milky

[Jackrat]

Based on your replies, i take it that you do WoF inspections motu... Do u have a quota system or unwritten rule that says you have to fail a certain percentage of people who get checks done?

It is just that with remarkably similar problems i have seen cars driven by young 'uns such as myself fail, whereas the cars/bikes taken in by 'respectable' people, such as cops, mechanics, car fanatics etc pass without a second thought.

And since when did the age of the car determine how much rain must be removed from the window??? i had a mate fail on the high speed window wipers for his galant, but on our old Vauxhall we didnt have dual speed wipers and never failed on them not being there

~milky
Lol, respectable people look after their vehicules.If you have two speed wipers they have to work.I mean if the high speed don't work,Whats the next thing to fail most likely to be??.
And as Motu Points out,The test is for now,Tomorrow is your problem.
When we do bike checks for our club run we are always hearing guys say,but it got a warrent last week.So what??That was last week,This is now.
Our own club rule states,A bike must be able to pass a warrent after the run,Some don't pass before,And that one issue keeps a lot of people from ever thinking of coming along.Thus we get very few fuckwits taking part and screwing things up for others.Imagine if your warrent was based on the same principal.Hell half the vehicules in NZ would be instant write offs.But then us respectable people would have it sweet aye.And MOTU could double his rate and have a waiting list. :laugh:

[Firefight]

I think you guys are missing the whole point with a WoF - It's not FOR 6 months - we are checking the condition of the vehicle from the last test until NOW ,this very moment that we are testing the vehicle,once the vehicle leaves our premises it is YOUR responsability to KEEP it up to WoF standards.It is a visual inspection only ,we don't put on our Xray glasses,no invasive proceedures are employed - and it is up to YOU to prove us wrong if we question something about your vehicle...if I suspect your braided brake lines are not manufactured in acordance to blah,blah,blah...then you supply the proof - or pay me for my time to find out for you.The things we miss are mainly just standards markings on seatbelts,glazing,lamps tyres etc,but yeah there's a whole heap of stuff we can't look at....it called experiance,our call whether we look closer or ignore - I think it's like being a detective....sniff,sniff...AH HA!!! GOTCHA!!!!

$30 an hr?...that'd be nice,a hell of a lot of costs go into a Wof,not many recovered,we do them at a loss and just hope we pick up some work - the cheaper the Wof test the less likely you are to pass,they use the cheap price to get you in.


I, spend a fair amount of my spare time working at a country gagrge and while not qualified to issue WOFs, I am well aware of the cost involved
to be WOF compliant, ie keeping staff certified, the cost of the admin- LTSA on line thingy, Braking meters etc.,Motus is right there is no profit in WOFs, all you can hope for is extra work as a result of the check, and in the case of local country garages, it is considered by the customer to be all part of the service, and you still get people who will come in to get a WOF check knowing it will fail, and then going away and getting the work done elsewhere.So yeah NZ$ 30.00 Is dam good value for money.

Firefight :sunny:

[Motu]

Based on your replies, i take it that you do WoF inspections motu... Do u have a quota system or unwritten rule that says you have to fail a certain percentage of people who get checks done?

It is just that with remarkably similar problems i have seen cars driven by young 'uns such as myself fail, whereas the cars/bikes taken in by 'respectable' people, such as cops, mechanics, car fanatics etc pass without a second thought.

And since when did the age of the car determine how much rain must be removed from the window??? i had a mate fail on the high speed window wipers for his galant, but on our old Vauxhall we didnt have dual speed wipers and never failed on them not being there

~milky

Come for a WoF at smoko or lunch time and you will fail,kinda unwritten rule.You seem to have it backwards - the biggest complaint is ''how come you are failing my 1998 whatever when there are all these wrecks driving around with no WoF....sorry,but most of those wrecks do have a WoF,how a vehicle looks has nothing to do with it,all it has to do is comply with the regs,simple as that.

When I worked in a rich bastard area I was surprised at the number of vehicles with no WoF,they'd come with a 6mth overdue WoF no problem,the cops don't pick these types up,just wave them through a spot check.People with an older vehicle usualy come in early so they have time to fix it.

Oh,thats a sad point - come in early and fail....you now have a failed WoF,even if it is still current,shoot yourself in the foot why don't ya.Working in the country we repaired 90% of our fails,working in the city I only repair 10% of my fails.

[Milky]

I wasnt hinting at the type or age of the vehicles that various people drive, it is just that on some occasions i take the family car down to be tested and it fails on problems that were around for a long long time before... problems that were ignored when my father takes the car down.

I do see your point about the wipers... they may be indicating that the system is about to fail, rather than being an isolated occurance.