Why knee down

[Jackrat]

Ok for all the posers,I know you think it looks good.
But why do it when it so obviously locks you into such an unforgiving nothing else, No where else to go riding style.Years ago I read the writings of Mike Hailwood,A guy who was considered THE BEST,and he made it quite plan he thought it was a stupid idea,And his acheviements proved him RIGHT.So why scrape your pegs when you don't need to,why stick your bloody knee out when you don't need to.After all Mike DID PISS ALL OVER,the riders that used the style.The other great that didn't use the style was AGO'.So here we have
the two best riders of all time both saying it sucks,and proving it,yet we have guys doing it and then complaining of running out of room,running wide and any number of things going wrong that can be attributed directly to this riding style.I mean if you scarpe your pegs and then run wide,why the fuck are you doing it.Have none of you knee down types ever read or taken notice
of the proven best,an thus learnt the error of this crap unforgiving style of riding.And you can forget Kenny Rodgers,He was never as good as either Hailwood or Ago'
You don't belive me,Read the stat's!!!
Running out of road,Scraping your pegs??? What a crock.

[aff-man]

Hmm make you think i have got the zxr pretty far over so that if i wanted to (or had) sliders sticking my knee out will possibly result in road contact. But the big question i have to ask to those who do use sliders is ... Does it make that much difference????

[Motoracer]

Hey JR, first of all, you have to consider who the riders are now looking up to. You will porbably find names like Valentino Rossi or Max Biaggi or some of the other current racers who all use the knee down position. When I started riding, it was the cool thing to do and now I can't seem to ride with out it. Call it a bad habit, riding style or what ever but IMO, I can see a few advantages of this position. I can tell the lean angel of the bike while scraping my knee. I put weight on the knee thus I reduce the force exerted on the tires while cornering. I can control slides better in this position since its like havein a little third wheel on the ground.

I hate scraping the pegs cause thats when you can't go any lower and if you do it wrong, it can make you come off. Cause if you have to turn harder after already scraping the pegs, your in trouble and you just run wide for the corner. To avoid this I hang off a lot so when I am riding, the bike doesn't go THAT low.

[k14]

Totally agree with you motoracer. If the top guys are doing it at the moment, there must be some merit to doing it. But i think the point should be that they do it in a controlled environment with a limited amount of variables. When someone does it on the road that is just complete lunacy.

I have a leather suit with virgin knee sliders. The first day i got it i thought, "yay, some knee down action" i learnt very quickly that it is stupid to try and do it on the road. After a rear slide and a near high side, i quickly gave up the idea. Now bring on the trackdays :D

[Coldkiwi]

When someone does it on the road that is just complete lunacy.

The first day i got it i thought, "yay, some knee down action" i learnt very quickly that it is stupid to try and do it on the road.

not neccessarily.. you just need
a) reasonable bike
b) reasonable tyres
c) reasonable warm dry road with a suitable corner

its FECKING fun for starters and very satisfying having it down (if only because you get to corner faster and feel the g's on your body). Decking out the pegs just means you need a sportier bike (or rearsets) with more clearence if you're going to persist.
To say that it has no merit when Rossi is doing it (and wiping the field no matter what style/bike/excuse they use) is surely taking the piss JR. I'm happy to delve into the physics of why hanging off (and hence knee out) makes any bike corner faster and even provide some nice form 6 level diagrams... but are you really interested in being proven wrong or are you just enjoying stirring guys on sportsbikes? :blah:

[Dave]

Why knee down
-lower centre of gravity
-utilise centrifugal force to aid grip
-guage lean angle
-pick up front to prevent front wheel slides

Look at the lap times from mike hailwood to valantino rossi,
i don't think hailwood was quite as quick.
-ah, but the machinery's different, thats the point, hailwood wasn't riding a 230 horsepower 145kg bike.
IT WORKS!
Hailwood also didn't have any telemetry to prove one way or the other.

[750Y]

on the road, it's not the act of getting one's knee down, as such, which causes the rider to run out of options.

[merv]

Isn't the whole guts of it that with physics there can only be equilibrium or else there will be some velocity in a lateral direction involved meaning you are skating on your arse. Leaning in - with body and or knee down is all about allowing that balance with the bike in a more upright position. That allows Rossi and co to easily tail slide the bike without the fear of it rapidly low siding. Hence they go slightly faster round the curves by maintaining better grip and control from the tyre being more upright than it otherwise would be to balance at that speed. On the road if you are getting nowhere near scraping your pegs or losing tyre grip then whether you put your knee out or not won't make any difference as far as I can see the laws of physics would say.

Who remembers Giancarlo Falappa? - for a while he used to lean the bike into the curves and his body off to the outside of the curve after having come from moto-x and he still won a few races. I think that was because he scared the shit out of others when he stuffed it up the inside of them at that angle.

[mangell6]

One minor detail with 'modern bikes' is that the weight distribution is very different to the good old days, when bikes were bikes and the roads were an adventure not a race track like today.

I read an article a coule of months ago that spoke of the different riding styles and how the weight distribution has had an impact on riding styles.

Jackrat you should attempt to ride hanging of on the next corner, use a back road and a left hander.

[Dave]

Who remembers Giancarlo Falappa? - for a while he used to lean the bike into the curves and his body off to the outside of the curve after having come from moto-x and he still won a few races.

troy bayliss has been seen to do this quite often.-not mid corner though!

[SPman]

Style often doesnt have a lot to do with skill.The late John Robinson from Performance Bikes used to regularly embarrass hot shots at track days, - when they were attacking corners, full knee down etc, he would apparently casually ride around the outside of them in an almost touring like angle of lean, bike almost upright.
Hailwood and Ago were brilliant, for their day, but bikes have changed considerable in style of riding as well as everything else.In the old days of Duc 750's with TT100 tyres , it was all neat,central and tucked in. With more modern bikes, I now find Im riding with a lot of weight forward, loading the front tyre and moving around on the bike far more than I ever did. I tried riding an old bike like that and almost canned off!
As for knee sliders on road leathers....well, they make good things to kneel on in the gravel when you're checking your chain or tyres!

[wkid_one]

Ok for all the posers,I know you think it looks good.
But why do it when it so obviously locks you into such an unforgiving nothing else, No where else to go riding style.Years ago I read the writings of Mike Hailwood,A guy who was considered THE BEST,and he made it quite plan he thought it was a stupid idea,And his acheviements proved him RIGHT.So why scrape your pegs when you don't need to,why stick your bloody knee out when you don't need to.After all Mike DID PISS ALL OVER,the riders that used the style.The other great that didn't use the style was AGO'.So here we have
the two best riders of all time both saying it sucks,and proving it,yet we have guys doing it and then complaining of running out of room,running wide and any number of things going wrong that can be attributed directly to this riding style.I mean if you scarpe your pegs and then run wide,why the fuck are you doing it.Have none of you knee down types ever read or taken notice
of the proven best,an thus learnt the error of this crap unforgiving style of riding.And you can forget Kenny Rodgers,He was never as good as either Hailwood or Ago'
You don't belive me,Read the stat's!!!
Running out of road,Scraping your pegs??? What a crock.Technical reason why - you can carry more corner speed. Why - because you are shifting the COG nearer to the inside of the corner and allowing the bike to be more upright going around the corner......no other reason.

Also - once you have done it - it becomes very hard not to corner without getting off the bike.

I did it because I felt in greater control of the corner. Not just having the feedback from the tyre but also from the road. It also acts as a lean indicator - telling you how far you are leaning by feel - not just look.

Why do more riders ride dragging their knee on the track than don't?? it is quicker.

I personally couldn't give a flying fuck whether people think I should or shouldn't have ridden with my knee down. I know I cornered better and quicker this

As for Lunacy - not at all.......as with anything on a bike - it is just about picking where to do it and how fast to do it. You are right - if you are knee down - you can only tighten your line up slightly so picking your entry speed is crucial to not running wide......but knee down cornering is not stupid.....in fact it is the best way to get up the Taka's.

[k14]

Yeah, but best is a subjective word.

Your opinion of best is most likley the fastest was to get up there. Mine is alive and not crashing.

[cruzer]

I wonder how it would look if I did it? Hmm? :scooter:

[Lou Girardin]

So, what about elbow down?
Lou

[SPman]

So, what about elbow down?
Lou Well its the track, but.....

normally, doesnt it mean you're commencing a slide along the road?

[Coldkiwi]

hehe, I think elbow down means you should be ON the track! (mainly because you probably need slick tyres to get there and they're not road legal :p )

[Jackrat]

Jezzzz,Ya go for a ride,come back an look what happens.
#1 Rossi is not as good as either hailwood or Ago, Bloody long way to go yet.
As for carrying more corner speed,BS,When good riders go round the outside of knee downs, sliding both wheels that kind'a puts payed to that silly idea.
Don't belive it watch steven brigs and weep.
Put either Ago, or Hailwood on a modern bike an they would still wipe the floor with Rossi.As to modern bikes Blah,blah,blah, Well it's not a new techniqe so forget that little dream on.Ok I will admit I can't stand Kenny bloody Rodgers,BUT when the winingist yank out there Teaches guys to ride
fast on the dirt and then says, now do the same thing on the track and you will win,And people rave about it,Well there's that question again HUH.
And no CK this is not just a wind up,I really want to know why guys scrape their pegs,if you want to gauge your ground clearance why not just use your foot,I mean how can you lead with your shoulder and hip like you should if you have a knee sticking out.Should you not be trying to hold the bike up right thus maintaining max traction while useing your body and the bikes power to stear the bike??---Watch Gary McCoy and tell me you could stay with him.What makes me ask this as much as anything is that I ride my road bike in much the same way as I do my trail bike and I know I am faster on a given road than a few of my mates that ride knee down.And BTW I have tryed both ways and tucking my knee hard into the bike while leading with shoulder and hip useing my foot to gauge ground clearance gives me better corner speed a heaps better control.And the question remains,When the majority of race riders use the knee down tech' but the real stand outs argue against it,why carry on doing it.Apart from FUN,got no arguement with that!!
And BTW Wicked the qestion was nothing to do with getting off the bike,As you are so fond of saying, Read the question.And BTW,if you don't ride on the road I would dear say,Nobody gives a fuck about you or your fantasy based opinion anyway.So maybe you save the crap for something you do know about,Like falling on your ass on a regular basis. <_< :D

[k14]

No offence jackrat, but knee down has to be faster. If it wasnt why would all the top motogp and wsbk guys do it?? If there was a faster way i am sure it would have been adopted by now.

[SPman]

Don't belive it watch steven brigs and weep. Interesting to watch the SM's at Paeroa - the fast guys, Briggs, Flood & co, had their foot out, like trailies, the guys behind were trying to get their knees down, while the last guys got confused and were trying both!

Put either Ago, or Hailwood on a modern bike an they would still wipe the floor with Rossi. They'd have their fkn work cut out - the boy is good!

,if you want to gauge your ground clearance why not just use your foot, Hmmm, thats what I do, (old habits die hard). Works a treat unless you're real exuberant and your foot gets whipped off the peg!

I ride my road bike in much the same way as I do my trail bike and I know I am faster on a given road than a few of my mates that ride knee down, There you have it - road. Highly variable things - most not condusive to track style riding. Wkid liked to get his knee down up the 'taka's (and elsewhere), but a Z1000, or other puchy light naked bike with good bar leverage would probably be as quick or quicker.


.Apart from FUN,got no arguement with that!! The ultimate reply - how can you argue against that? :2thumbsup

[Motu]

Well,I'm sorta with you on this one and not Jack - these tossers doing it on the road is only for their ego,but the poor cretins need all the boost they can get - they get into all the trouble you describe because the road is just not the place for it....any reasonable rider - as SPman points out - will be able to just ride around the outside of them on a CB350.

On the technical side it's the tyres that make it not only possible,but necessary.The modern tyre is veeerrry wide - as the bike leans over the contact patch moves out,and the CofG needs to go through the contact patch...so a high CofG is an advantage,moving the body to the inside shifts the CG over the tyre - it's a good move.BMWs are not too good with wide tyres,the low CG is disadvantaged here.

My riding style has changed over the years - I don't sit off the bike...much,or drop my knee - but I have to get forward as far as I can get,sports bikes piss me off because this big tank is in the way - the modern dirt bike has a seat going all the way to the gas cap,that's what I like to do.On my XLV750 I sit right on the nose of the seat,actualy on the tank - the knees are out,but nowhere near the ground!

It all goes back to Kenny Roberts,he took the dirt track style and adapted it to road racing - it needs power and tyres,they are power sliding the bike in the turns,that's why it's not really possible to use this style on the roads,you are in way too deep for road use...but hey - you can pretend,and everyone will think you are...a wanker!

From KR up to Doohan we had a lot of American ex flattrackers as world champs,no coincidence.I hear Rossi has had a lot of dirt experiance - if you can't slide a bike off road....get that knee back in tosser!

[Jackrat]

No offence jackrat, but knee down has to be faster. If it wasnt why would all the top motogp and wsbk guys do it?? If there was a faster way i am sure it would have been adopted by now.

All the top riders don't do it.
And faster ways have been adopted,that why I ask the question.
There are two accepted ways of going around a corner fast,The best riders EVER maintain knee down is not the best way.This is not my opinion,it is the PROVEN opinion of most of the worlds best riders.And I'm not talking Valentino
bloody Rossi,The guy hasn't been around long enough to prove anything and only got to were he is today because better riders retied.
And Errrrrrr, no offence taken, Well not when it's coming from a rider any way :yeah:

[wkid_one]

Still riding - in case you were wondering - just dirt now - not road :wavey::wavey:
And I am glad you took offence

[Jackrat]

I'm afraid JR - it is you who is wrong here. Dragging your knee allows your to corner quicker in the right circumstances as it allows your to corner with your bike more upright - therefore apply more throttle sooner and quicker. Dragging pegs would suggest you should increase your clearance. The thought is that because you are dragging your knee you are at maximum lean - however you aren't - you are trying to minimise your lean.

R1's etc are designed to be ridden this way......hence the fat arse tire on the back and the geometry of the bikes - the leverage on the bar is completely secondary to these bikes - they are designed to be steered with body weight and throttle in the corner.

Try riding a sports bike before questioning others on how they ride one. I can understand why you keep the XS upright - my mountain bike has wider tires than that.

I'll say it again - JR - I couldn't give a fuck as to your opinion - you have never ridden with me - for which I thank god for small mercies.

As for using your foot - you should be on a supermotard or dirt tracker.

Too many top race riders are against you here JR.....when I see Rossi/Bayliss/Edwards doing it - I will reconsider.

As for bullshit - I will read your post again so I know what that is
Yeah and only you can take a reasonable qestion as a personal attack.
But then you did fuck up on a regular basis,Right.Not my opinion,your own words.And my rear tyre is a 180 so you don't know shit about that either,give it up man this is a conversation for riders,not an argument for pretenders.Your out of your element just like you were on the road.Like get a bike an come back in twenty year when the damp has dryed from behind your ears.And I didn't take offence,I'm having fun at your expence.
Read the Sig'

[Pickle]

Have to agree with you Jack
Too many posers are trying to copy what the top racers are doing and dont understand why the top GP guys are putting their knee out, they are not hanging off, just check out their lean angle. That might just have something to do with it. I was always taught to stay tucked in unless you needed to tighten your line and then try dropping your knee out as this has the effect of allowing you to tighten your line. I have used this to effect when I used to go bucket racing passing others who were hanging off everywhere and had their knee's on the deck and was actually holding me up in the corners, ending up going around the outside of them still tucked in.
Now a quote from Keith Codes Twist of the Wrist.
" If you dont feel comfortable hanging off, dont do it. You can waste a lot of time and effort trying to work out something you dont need to do. Use hanging off as a tool. When you begin to have ground clearance problems while cornering, or any other problems that could be helped by hanging off, then do it."

There is also a chapter in Twist of the Wrist just for you know who titled
" How to Fall"

[Jackrat]

Thank you thats what I was looking for,An informed and logical reasoning.
I am always looking for opinion backed with reasoning to improve my own riding style and thus hopefully safty.Unfortunatly,often when a question is asked it is interpreted as a statement and we end up with the wickeds of the world,who think they know it all,turning it into a shit fight.
Thanks again.

[wkid_one]

Haven't binned from having my knee on the ground - but will be sure to post it when I have.

At EOD - there a many riding styles. I lurvvvvv draggin my knee as I feel more in touch with the corner and what the bike is doing......so what - my choice. At the end of the day, it is just whether I stick my leg out or not......riding position isn't different. Still swing my hips around the tank and drop inside shoulder regardless of whether the leg is out or not.

Who cares if you do or don't...I too know riders who ride extremely quickly without moving on the bike one bit (or so it looks).....I don't do that as I said just above because I feel more comfortable sliding the knee around the corner - which is the principal reason why I do it.....not for speed or looks - just feel and confidence - it is what I have gotten used to and it has served me well thus far.....so why change.

Shit fight - I think not - you took it to a personal level. I just voiced my opinion - which obviously wasn't the same as yours so was immediately incorrect. Mind you - I should have expected that

As for riding a trailie - well that is just fucking with my head as it a diff tech.......

[wkid_one]

Well its the track, but.....

normally, doesnt it mean you're commencing a slide along the road?
Those pics almost defy physics.....

It always impressed me when you see the GP and SBK boys coming back in after racing with grazes on the fairing from where they have lent it over.

The is a Superb tire add with Rossi showing him on maximum lean - beautiful to behold....

[wkid_one]

Yeah and only you can take a reasonable qestion as a personal attack. Just for Chronological posterity - not a personal attack - noooooo never


And BTW Wicked the qestion was nothing to do with getting off the bike,As you are so fond of saying, Read the question.And BTW,if you don't ride on the road I would dear say,Nobody gives a fuck about you or your fantasy based opinion anyway.So maybe you save the crap for something you do know about,Like falling on your ass on a regular basis. <_< :D
Hey and JR - ever thought I am doing exactly the same to you....who is the bigger fool - the one who leads or the one who follows....and sometimes it is just all tooo easy to push your buttons

And a hint for next time - don't ask a question if you don't want an answer.

Enuf said......

[Jackrat]

Just for Chronological posterity - not a personal attack - noooooo never


Hey and JR - ever thought I am doing exactly the same to you....who is the bigger fool - the one who leads or the one who follows....and sometimes it is just all tooo easy to push your buttons

And a hint for next time - don't ask a question if you don't want an answer.

Enuf said......
I did want an opinion,I didn't need to hear you don't give a fuck about the opinions of others,Where did that come from?And also at no time have I EVER chosen to slag off your bike,Where did that come from.And I got my answer in a polite and informed manner without your input.
Nobody else seems to have had a problem with the question to the extent where they felt moved to insult either my opinion my riding style or my bike.
Only you?????? :bleh: .

[wkid_one]

Please say something that surprises me

[Jackrat]

Please say something that surprises me
Your shout!

[Jackrat]

Please say something that surprises me

Your shout!

[wkid_one]

I didn't expect that - well done.....

Long drive/ride for a drink tho and it is pissing down down here

[Deano]

So, what about elbow down?
Lou


Ive seen a racing picture where a guy had an elbow down, (and apparently not a millisecond before the rest of the bike either).

It looked quite unreal.

The old traditional style may have been faster back then ?? but Im sure if it was still the go Team Honda would be doing it (or that Yamaha rider Rossi something...)

[Two Smoker]

For me having my knee down or hanging off the bike gives me more confidence and feels better it also relays more information to me. I dont know if it is faster because of my inexperience so far.

When i hang of the bike i dont feel like im pushing it to the limit, but when hugging the tank im scared it might low side:( but that could just be a mind battle.

[Deano]

It all goes back to Kenny Roberts,he took the dirt track style and adapted it to road racing - it needs power and tyres,they are power sliding the bike in the turns,that's why it's not really possible to use this style on the roads,you are in way too deep for road use...but hey - you can pretend,and everyone will think you are...a wanker!

From KR up to Doohan we had a lot of American ex flattrackers as world champs,no coincidence.I hear Rossi has had a lot of dirt experiance - if you can't slide a bike off road....get that knee back in tosser!

Didn't Doohan slide his knee and drift both tyres (front going in and rear spinning out to get MAX angle)

Rossi has learnt a lot from Doohan and doesn't he also use both of the above
techniques ??

Now I hate to give you Honda SP knockers any ammo - but being only 75kg on a 200kg bike, I feel much more comfortable with a bit of arse off the seat and knee out.

[Kickaha]

Having just spent the day at the track I would have to say,I think hanging off the bike and knee out feels far better when it comes to changing direction,but doesn't automatically mean a higher corner speed.

I very rarely drag my knee and once it touches down normally lift it slightly and so do most guys I race with,I do know several people who have saved themselves from binning it by using there knee to pick there bikes back up when they've started to lose it (RS125 mostly)

Knee down riding on the road? sorry but I think its just a big Wank!

[Deano]

Having just spent the day at the track I would have to say,I think hanging off the bike and knee out feels far better when it comes to changing direction,but doesn't automatically mean a higher corner speed.

I very rarely drag my knee and once it touches down normally lift it slightly and so do most guys I race with,I do know several people who have saved themselves from binning it by using there knee to pick there bikes back up when they've started to lose it (RS125 mostly)

Riding on the road? sorry but I think its just a big Wank!

Once again, try a 200kg bike through twisties with no body momentum...

[speedpro]

I've watched Briggsy and others hooning round the Mt Wellington track on their motards. Totally awesome on that little track , , , but wait, what's this?? It's Rick on his XR200/125 bucket/motard trying to get up the inside, with a knee more or less down and holding more corner speed, he has to as the 125 can't keep up in the straights. Also when riding round that track, in the dry, with good tyres even when hanging off you can still scrape the side stand tang on a Kwaka100 and the leather on the side of your boot, not the sole. If you didn't hang off, with your knee sticking out the bike would have to be leaned even further over which isn't possible as the side stand tang is already scraping.
If a modern bike with it's wider tyres went round a corner at the same speed as an older bike with narrower tyres it would be leaned over further, I think mainly because of the wider tyre and the problem as mentioned of the contact patch moving away from the centre line of the bike.
There used to be a GP rider a few years ago who used to regularly scrape his elbows to the extent that he used to wear "elbow scrapers". On a 250 I think.

[Deano]

For me having my knee down or hanging off the bike gives me more confidence and feels better it also relays more information to me. I dont know if it is faster because of my inexperience so far.

When i hang of the bike i dont feel like im pushing it to the limit, but when hugging the tank im scared it might low side:( but that could just be a mind battle.

Surely, there is less chance of low siding when hangin off ??

Angle, centrifugal force........PHYSICS BOY - where are you when we need you ?? :2thumbsup

Perhaps with the higher corner speeds these days in motogp, Rossi uses his knee as a sail on the inside to help drag him round the corner.

Wkid, when r u back on the road ? Didn't realise u were local ?

[Kickaha]

Once again, try a 200kg bike through twisties with no body momentum...


I've done just that on both a Darmah and a R75/7,a bit of countersteer works wonders.

[Two Smoker]

Surely, there is less chance of low siding when hangin off ??

Angle, centrifugal force........PHYSICS BOY - where are you when we need you ?? :2thumbsup
Exactly, with the small cost of new sliders after a while, it could be saving you hundreds of dollars in repair bills for the lower cowling:shifty: But if you arent pushing it hard there aint no point of hanging it out.

[Deano]

I've done just that on both a Darmah and a R75/7,a bit of countersteer works wonders.

Believe me, Im using countersteer, pegs and body weight (Paekakariki Hill - maybe you should try and keep up with cycosis (who incidentally doesn't get off the seat - but then again his 600 goes around corners by simply thinking about it !!)

[SPman]

It seems to be pissing down all around :rolleyes:

[Motu]

Cabin fever.

[Deano]

Motu,

Give us some names of current GP or WSB riders who don't get off the seat and stick the knee out and we will all look out for them this year ??

Kicka, hope that isn't you with the knee out in your avatar (lol) !!

[Motu]

Uh,I think you better go back and read my posts on this subject - I'm only saying it's only for ego and show on the road - you will never get up to the speed of the racers street riding - but it's fun to try it's why we ride bikes.

Some of the aces of the past would hang a cheek - I used to do this in the early 70s on my Triton,a shift of weight to the inside would help pull the bike down,it wasn't unusual at all.

I also think some of you are confusing hanging a cheek and draging a knee - while they are often done at the same time,one can be done without the other.Tucked in but well off the bike,knee out but bum in the middle of the seat.Go and look at some old photos - at a glance they are old farts on old bikes with black leathers,but with study you will see they all had a different style.

Mike the Bike,Ago,King Kenny,Foggy,The Doctor - the greatest of their times,they have all given us something,pushed the limits and set new standards....they are ALL my heros.

[Kickaha]

Motu,

Kicka, hope that isn't you with the knee out in your avatar (lol) !!

Ooooopppppppps I've been sprung,but I did say it felt better when I was racing,I just think its wank during normal road riding,but that may be because I don't treat the road as a racetrack.

[Deano]

Uh,I think you better go back and read my posts on this subject - I'm only saying it's only for ego and show on the road - you will never get up to the speed of the racers street riding - but it's fun to try it's why we ride bikes.

Some of the aces of the past would hang a cheek - I used to do this in the early 70s on my Triton,a shift of weight to the inside would help pull the bike down,it wasn't unusual at all.

I also think some of you are confusing hanging a cheek and draging a knee - while they are often done at the same time,one can be done without the other.Tucked in but well off the bike,knee out but bum in the middle of the seat.Go and look at some old photos - at a glance they are old farts on old bikes with black leathers,but with study you will see they all had a different style.

Mike the Bike,Ago,King Kenny,Foggy,The Doctor - the greatest of their times,they have all given us something,pushed the limits and set new standards....they are ALL my heros.


True, it was Jackrat who suggested the faster racers didn't put the knee down. And scraping pegs is a crock of shit also ? :shake:

[Hitcher]

I wonder how it would look if I did it? Hmm? :scooter:

On a Volusia you'd need a cantilevered leg so your knee beat the peg to the ground!

[Pickle]

Motu,

Give us some names of current GP or WSB riders who don't get off the seat and stick the knee out and we will all look out for them this year ??

Kicka, hope that isn't you with the knee out in your avatar (lol) !!

I made the comment that the top GP guys dont hang off and I am looking at a photo of Rossi & Gibernau and they are not hanging off, look at the Grand Prix and Superbike calendar from 2002 the TOP guys are not hanging off as there simply isnt room they drop their knee and shoulder, their bum is still on the seat. :baby:
I think everyone is getting confused between what is needed to be done on the track & what is done on the road wether its needed or not. This could be due to pose value or mistankenly thinking that hanging off is necessary to get a modern bike around a corner at road speeds. :puke:
All that movement getting to the hanging off point and concentration off getting the knee down is probably slowing you all down, why not just concentrate on your lines and being smooth.
When racing I used to go all out be all over the bike fall off regularly and be slow, then after talking to my brother concentrated on lines, turn in point, braking markers etc etc I got a lot faster, didnt fall off as often and had more fun :beer:

[wkid_one]

You only have to see them thru the a chicane to see how much they have to move from side to side between the different corners.

They do 'hang off' in the sense that they are shifting their weight considering from the centre of the bike.

Watch the esses next time and see how much they do infact move

As I said I prefer it because I find it helps me set up for the corner......and it gives me a better sense of security in the corner - however this is only on the 30-55kph corners......prefer to take the faster corners tucked in just dropping the shoulder to the inside


2002 the TOP guys are not hanging off as there simply isnt room they drop their knee and shoulder, their bum is still on the seat. Don't wanna pick bones - but these pics do kinda suggest that they hang a cheek or so off there bike.....which is all we are talking about - their bum is barely on the seat in some of these pics - and this is Abe, Hayden, Bryne, Melandri

[750Y]

I am liking that first pic. 8-).

[Coldkiwi]

for me, comfort and confidence probably plays the biggest factor. I know moving on the entry to a corner takes effort and if I move lots I'll be more buggered by the end of the ride. But I've tried it with my bum on the centreline and the whole show just feels twitchy and unstable, so whether its theoretically faster or not is irrelevant if I think i'm about to add myself to the landscape.
pivoting round the tank (yes, my gsxr has a dirty great tank but its thin where it needs to be) and getting the shoulder down gives me the greatest feeling of confidence by miles.

and is it still wanky having sliders on the road if you actually scrape them?

[speedpro]

Sliders are another issue I think when riding on the road. As far as being required because your knee is getting worn out goes, that is all bullshit. However as another layer between you and whatever, in the case of a crash, they are very useful. I did a job on my left knee at Ohakune a few years ago and the missing bits would have been covered by a knee slider and probably still attached if I was wearing them.

For a bit of "street cred" you could always hook up with a racer and do a swap when his sliders get worn. Bit of a win/win situation there.

[Motoracer]

For a bit of "street cred" you could always hook up with a racer and do a swap when his sliders get worn. Bit of a win/win situation there.

Anyone is welcome to PM me for this offer :whistle:

[FzerozeroT]

I am still trying to get some knee down action, so i can say "because i can" mainly, It may be shit for cornering speeds but it's fun, why do i ride a bike? for cornering speed? no.

any knockers, have you tried ice skating? the tyre section is equivalent to 0.5 and there is grip until the sole of the boot touches down (equivalent of a footpeg?) so all cornering mechanics is done by throwing bodyweight. I used to ice skate a lot and could drag knee on ice, like i said... FUN..

If you want to get through a corner fast get a good line, if you want to have fun, drop knee :sunny: . Or in jackrats case, get a line that has a sharp kink just before apex, weight on outside peg, nail the gas and roost / drift through the rest, probably have same exit speed.

[Coldkiwi]

Sliders are another issue I think when riding on the road. As far as being required because your knee is getting worn out goes, that is all bullshit.

why? because you can't? :whistle:

[wkid_one]

Sliders are another issue I think when riding on the road. As far as being required because your knee is getting worn out goes, that is all bullshit. However as another layer between you and whatever, in the case of a crash, they are very useful. I did a job on my left knee at Ohakune a few years ago and the missing bits would have been covered by a knee slider and probably still attached if I was wearing them.

I use my sliders but that aside.

They can cause more harm than good in an accident because the last thing you want is a great big lump of solid man made material at a localised point on your body. I had a bruise for 7 weeks from where I hit the road with my slider when I came off

[speedpro]

why? because you can't? :whistle:
On an MB100 with the original rib front tyre - absolutely, without touching down my head shortly afterwards. Actually on :cool: the road I can't ever remember getting a knee down, probably due to the big old tanks I used to ride, Z1s, XS1100, GSX11s etc. Used to grind the crap out of the pipes and even the engines but getting a knee down, even on "silver dot" Pirelli Phantoms on the track was asking a bit much.
On the bucket though . . . . . yeehaaa, pitch it in. Nice fresh TT900GPs or slicks, lovely

[Coldkiwi]

i can see what you're saying Wkid but i'd generally expect them to spread the impact a bit. And they'd certainly prevent getting a fence post or something through the side of ya knee (small odds but its a fact). 7 weeks bruising is bad- but not as bad as reconstructive surgery and a 3 month recovery!

[Kwaka-Kid]

hey awesome thread here. Some good theory going on etc. And what i think it comes down to is Style, and seat of the pants-what feels right to the rider! I first planted mine on the track just because i kind of had to, and have i think 3 times now on the street in jeans just showing off to my own ego to prove i could do it on the shit metzler crossply tyres and tell my old man! Dont bother on the street now or at least havnt had to. Anyways this is my idea when racing... i hang the most weight to the inside of the corner and as low as possible, general physics as people are saying, it just feels better! and being that close to the ground is no where near as far to fall and helps give me confidence. So Mix putting as much weight as low and far to the inside of the corner as posible.. and going into a corner fast, then faster, then faster still, if i run at the same lean angle i will eventually run too wide off hte track, so i have to make the lean angle more.. and what i end up doing is heading into the corner as fast as possible where i have to lean over as far as my tyres will let me just to make the corner without running off the track (or at least this is my THEORY!) So all this eventually results in my knee scraping, after all that must mean im really stretching out far and obviously as low as i can be... the next reason i have is its interesting, when i lean forward and out and down, and plant my knee.. i can push on it, and then feel my rear wheel slide out! and start to wheel spin like full on whlist going thru the corner, now this was accidental as my rear tyre is stuffed and certainly not out of skill, but man! i wanna try that AGAIN! :) anyways gotta shoot, keep the ideas and reasons pumping :D also i guess it acts as a sail to the inside of the corner so very minorly helps pull the bike around. all sorts of little things..

[wkid_one]

i can see what you're saying Wkid but i'd generally expect them to spread the impact a bit. And they'd certainly prevent getting a fence post or something through the side of ya knee (small odds but its a fact). 7 weeks bruising is bad- but not as bad as reconstructive surgery and a 3 month recovery!doesn't work like that tho...they are small and as they have no absorbant qualities - they do nothing to spread impact

That's why leathers still have armour in the knee

[Coldkiwi]

ah well. my right slider took a few scraps from the gravel when I spun the gixxer in November that I'm glad my leathers didn't have to absorb. looked a bit cheese gratered really but reminds me why I wear full armoured leather! (all you traditional jeans folk listening?)

[Kwaka-Kid]

CK as i think im the only one left, yes, but im prepared to pay the price

[wkid_one]

CK as i think im the only one left, yes, but im prepared to pay the price
So you have leathers KK but ride in jeans??

The leathers will help you lots in an accident hanging up in your Wardrobe

[Kwaka-Kid]

need i list again?. 2x Pairs of Leathers, 2x Back protecters, 2x Cordura style jackets and matching pants with armour inside etc, 1x set of Dririder nylon stuff, 2x 2 piece Line7 wet gear, 6 pairs of boots, i think 12-15 pairs of gloves, 10 odd helmets, 2 thin leather jackets, 2 thick leather jackets, 2 main pairs of levi's.

I share most of this with my old man, we just have 2 full gear wardrobes...
Out of all that gear on the road every day i wear my cheap CMS helmet, (over the Shoei's/Arai or Nolan) whichever pair of 3 favourite boots i grab first or isnt wet, one of my 2 favourite pairs of thin leather gloves, the thickest leather jacket, a pair of levi's and go off to ride! 5 days a week to work its always jeans and jacket, even on these bad as wet days, the jeans dry at work. and i only change if i go for a ride more then 1 hour in the wet where i will mostly grab the Line7 overgear. My dad rides in his pairs of jeans with his thick leather jacket and often a shoei but more recently one of his CMS's, gotta be honest, the other gear is too good to slide down the road on! i dont care about my already ripped jeans and my $100 CMS helmet, the thin gloves i have become attached too, might get a little mad if i ruined them, another $30 will get me a set though. So yeah, when i race however i have to wear a set of leathers and back protecter(which ask any person thats seen me on the track i have forgotten to insert 3x now before going out onto the track).

[Zed]

...Out of all that gear on the road every day i wear my cheap CMS helmet, (over the Shoei's/Arai or Nolan) whichever pair of 3 favourite boots i grab first or isnt wet, one of my 2 favourite pairs of thin leather gloves, the thickest leather jacket, a pair of levi's and go off to ride! ...gotta be honest, the other gear is too good to slide down the road on! i dont care about my already ripped jeans and my $100 CMS helmet, the thin gloves i have become attached too, might get a little mad if i ruined them...
Surely you defeat the purpose of owning good gear if you don't wear it! :disapint:

If you came off your bike tomorrow and your leg got ripped up & your head got concussed badly, would you think twice about wearing the more expensive, fashionable gear? That is, if you could ever ride again?


Zed

[PeteThePom]

Ive seen a racing picture where a guy had an elbow down, (and apparently not a millisecond before the rest of the bike either).

It looked quite unreal.

The old traditional style may have been faster back then ?? but Im sure if it was still the go Team Honda would be doing it (or that Yamaha rider Rossi something...)
Aaron Slight was interviewed in a UK bike mag a couple of years ago when the whole hanging off the bike thing came up, he mentioned getting his foot opposite the corner under the frame rail so he could hang right off, he mentioned getting his elbow down and made a comment about getting your head down if you were brave enough!!

Racers hang off to get a balance between corner speed and grip, if you hang off you lean the bike less and thus have more tyre on the track, however if your riding this close to the edge on the road then you will die, sooner or later. Bods doing it on the road do it only for style/pose value which is fair enough, each to their own. I did a bit of circuit racing in the UK, endurance racing, one of my team mates was big time into getting his knee down, I wasn't and on my good days my lap times were significantly faster but this may have been down to him losing time by concentrating on getting his knee down rather than getting round the corner, I just used to come up to corner and chuck it in with half my backside hanging off but no knee down, oh yeah and it was on race prep'ed mopeds, cheap and slow(then again 70mph on a glorified push bike is relatively fast!) but then we were racing on go-kart tracks and airfields/skidpads!!! :Punk:

[Kwaka-Kid]

no zed, i accept that the gear i wear could end up leaving me worse off in an accident, the trick im trying to master however, is not having an accident... its a hard one, but im trying. also i learn more if i do come off because i feel it more :) and workin in auck hosp ive seen what some of those surgeons can do, i make sure before me weekends the zimmer skin graft mesher and the zimmer dermatome are both processed and ready, so im sorted :p (dont want no nurse using no humby knife poorly on me just taking little bits of skin and stuffing it up! :S)

[Motoracer]

So yeah, when i race however i have to wear a set of leathers and back protecter(which ask any person thats seen me on the track i have forgotten to insert 3x now before going out onto the track).

Would you race in your jeans if you were allowed to? :D

[White trash]

Ok for all the posers,I know you think it looks good.
But why do it when it so obviously locks you into such an unforgiving nothing else, No where else to go riding style.Years ago I read the writings of Mike Hailwood,A guy who was considered THE BEST,and he made it quite plan he thought it was a stupid idea,And his acheviements proved him RIGHT.So why scrape your pegs when you don't need to,why stick your bloody knee out when you don't need to.After all Mike DID PISS ALL OVER,the riders that used the style.The other great that didn't use the style was AGO'.So here we have
the two best riders of all time both saying it sucks,and proving it,yet we have guys doing it and then complaining of running out of room,running wide and any number of things going wrong that can be attributed directly to this riding style.I mean if you scarpe your pegs and then run wide,why the fuck are you doing it.Have none of you knee down types ever read or taken notice
of the proven best,an thus learnt the error of this crap unforgiving style of riding.And you can forget Kenny Rodgers,He was never as good as either Hailwood or Ago'
You don't belive me,Read the stat's!!!
Running out of road,Scraping your pegs??? What a crock.

Sorry. Joined this thread way to late.

I do it 'cause it's good fun! I don't care if someone thinks it looks queer or someone else thinks it looks cool.

I definitely don't think it makes me faster as I'm sure Jackrat would ride around me and leave me in his wobbling wake on his 650 Special.

I tell ya, it's always the ones you least expect! :not:

[merv]

The gear stories by KK and others above reminds me of 1973 when a mate of mine was the first of us to buy a full face helmet - a bright orange Bell. We didn't have to wear helmets at under 30mph back then so out he goes on his GT380 and pops a wheelie and arses up on the road outside where we were living. He was just slightly battered but thankful he didn't have his new flash helmet on as he might have scratched it.

The wonders of nature, remember you'll mend but your gear won't as its only man made and can't heal itself.

[PeteThePom]

Try this(ON THE TRACK NOT THE ROAD)Go round a corner at a given speed whilst staying in line with the bike, repeat the corner increasing your speed each time till the pegs deck out and note your speed, (this is theoretically our maximum corner speed as leaning further will deck out something more solid that will lift a wheel on the bike and result in a CRASH which wont improve your corner speed!)
Now approach the same corner at the previously noted speed and as you come into it, shift your weight to the inside and adopt the knee down, shoulder in stance....what do you notice? YOU ARE NOT DRAGGING THE PEGS because you have more clearance, you are now in a position(next time round) to increase your corner speed which will use up the increased clearance you have just created, keep doing this until you can't possibly hang off the bike any further, you have now reached maximum speed on this corner(assuming you had your braking point, turn in and apex sussed, all of which will change as you increase your corner speed anyway) Oh and ask Mr Hailwood to kindly move over as he's spoiling your line:lol:

Comparing riding techniques from 20 years ago to todays techniques is like comparing a ZX80 computer to a pentium4, they are not relevant. If I tried to ride my old Z1000 Lawson rep the same way I ride my ZRX1100 I'd probably have chucked it down the road on the 1st corner I came to!

[Kwaka-Kid]

exactly pom! i agree!, anyways Sudeep i would consider it yes, but still would prefer a cheap crap set of leathers (hey thats what i do race in!:p) But you cant compare riding styles, brakes, suspension etc has come a long way, aswell as the fact that back in the day you physically couldnt get your knee down on many bikes like my gs1000 as you grind the engine covers before your knee is anywhere near the ground, and thats even if you are 6foot or so.

[wkid_one]

[QUOTE=PeteThePom]ZX80 computer QUOTE]

The old ZX81, Spectrum and Vic20....now that was computing

[PeteThePom]

[QUOTE=PeteThePom]ZX80 computer QUOTE]

The old ZX81, Spectrum and Vic20....now that was computing
Thank f@*k they dont make em like that anymore!!!

[pete376403]

.Ok I will admit I can't stand Kenny bloody Rodgers,BUT :D

AND whats wrong with country music, then?! In fact, in the immortal words from the Blues Brothers, "we like both kinds, Country AND Western"

(Could you be referring to Kenny ROBERTS, both father and son?)

[merv]

You talk about knee down, what about Ulysses style - two feet down http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1285

See the rest of my pics of Sunday's ride at http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=2258

[Edge]

Don't knock it till you try it ,feels pretty bloody good if you ask me.Your not riding like a nanna doing it thats for sure!

[Coldkiwi]

i love the sound of sliders scraping in the morning! what a great w/e. three rides, countless corners (I go all gooey thinking about kopu-hikuai and skyline road now), good weather... and no tickets! woohoo! cheers for the company zed, affman, lemonbuyer... and the two guys on a TL R and hayabusa who were kind enough to 'let me' pass them going up the hunua hill.. and their mates ahead for showing me the way (still don't know what sort of freakin bike that was with the upturned exhaust out of the tail. Anyone know the owner of a yellow TL 1000R with the plate "V2TLR"?.. i want to know what that thing was!!)

[pete376403]

One of the English mags has a selection of items under a heading "sad and glad" - I recall seeing under the "sad" heading: knee sliders with lots of holes for cigarette lighter flints, so they would spark when you got your knee down
:weep:

[White trash]

One of the English mags has a selection of items under a heading "sad and glad" - I recall seeing under the "sad" heading: knee sliders with lots of holes for cigarette lighter flints, so they would spark when you got your knee down
:weep:

Never followed Barry New on the track then? :laugh:

[Coldkiwi]

funny you mention english mags pete. I was flicking through some Superbike issues (up for grabs if anyone wants them) and noticed what is perhaps the cause of jackrats initial post. Most photos of these guys cornering have their knee on the deck but the knee itself is still miles from the fairing! (bike often not even at 45 degrees!) Now, I'm not saying I'm the quickest rider on the road (I know thats not the case having just been reminded pushing hard to keep up with those guys in hunua... and i'm just not that good!) but surely there is a difference between having ones knee slider getting scuffed with the rider hanging off like a monkey and the knee slider getting scuffed because the riders leg can't get any closer to the bike without being pulled back behind the fairing line? I was worried I was being a posuer monkey trying to get my knee down in the weekend but then had an interesting situation where the knee was getting squashed by the fairing on one side and the road on the other.
So is that less posuerish than monkey hanging and a technically valid cornering situation ....or am I still a sad rice rocket wanker? :doh:

[White trash]

....or am I still a sad rice rocket wanker? :doh:

Yup! :kick: Same as me, brother!

Although, if you follow another thread on this site you'll see I'm a dedicated cruiser fan too.

As long as it's got some tow :rolleyes:

[Dave]

I noticed on the aprilia brochure for the RSV1000 the test rider with his elbow down-only thing is he practically dislocated his shoulder trying to get his arm out far enough to do it!

[Holy Roller]

Surely you defeat the purpose of owning good gear if you don't wear it! :disapint:

If you came off your bike tomorrow and your leg got ripped up & your head got concussed badly, would you think twice about wearing the more expensive, fashionable gear? That is, if you could ever ride again?


Zed

I gone through a pair of boots and two pair of gloves, three helmets, and two jackets in my misadventures. The gloves stiching come apart shows the force applied, but hands and fingers were ok. My current jacket is battle scared and will be replacing it as funds allow. Hence I have been forbidden to have any more misadventures by the Mrs.

[Skyryder]

My current jacket is battle scared and will be replacing it as funds allow. Hence I have been forbidden to have any more misadventures by the Mrs.

I have been following this thread with some interest. I think this is the fastest way to corner. Stay on the bike.

Skyryder