Special treatment for Maori.

[Jackrat]

Just got finished reading the NZ Herald,Big articule on this subject.
All the opinions exspressed were from Maori people.
Every thing from "We own this country and the whites should get used to it"
That came from a pig ugly fuck with a flat nose and white skin,To,"there are people in NZ that need special treatment and help,not all of them are Maori"
This from a dark skinned woman with Moko.Two extremes there!!
Then we get Tariana Turea saying all immigrants in NZ should go back were they came from.I guess she would need a time frame for that one huh!!
The whole thing for me has always been one of interest because of my own family history.Now we have a few dark horses in the old line up but basicly we are of Irish- Pah hau Nga Puhi ancestory.My older sister used the old Maori affairs to get a huge loan to buy a farm.At the time and still today I felt it was not the thing to do.After all she was a rich bitch to start with,And She don't atend the family Hui each five years because she don't like those people.So I look around me and I see The local Maori people geting handouts,Yet other than the old folks now driving new Mercedes and Holdens,The young people still get the same old FA.There is the SEA LORDS thing going on but other than the fat cats geting new office furnishings,flash cars,ect,ect, where is the money? I sure as hell Don't see it.And why is it that so many of the so called Maori making all the noise are whiter than me.
And why is it that the treaty is crap one day an then the best thing since sliced bread the next.If Maori kids are still geting FA from all this speical treatment,Where is the money really going.Is it all being spent on fat white women with a splash of Maori,Is it all going toward New cars for a few old fucks that were past their use by date fifty years ago.
So what the fuck is really going on in this country when half of it is for sale to rich Yanks and the bits left over are under constant attack by Money,Money,Money Grabing white Maoris.Do real Maori people get anything out of this,Do real New zealanders get anything out of it.Are there any real Maori people left in NZ,are there any real New Zealanders left in NZ.Hell it seems to me that most of both now live in Queensland and call each other Bro.
So whats your view on it.
And Hey Wickid I promise not to take offence unless you tell me to fuck off.
There that should get the ball rolling :D

[Motu]

This is a hot potatoe subject alright Jack and I'm reluctant to get into it,but might come back later with some other thoughts - you are lucky to be in both camps,you can speak your mind without someone jumping on your back,well,y'know what I mean.

About who is getting the money,yeah I've seen it too - we had a scheme operating in our area for Maori kids from the courts,go to jail or come here and work for a living,learn about your culture,it was actualy quite good,the boys were good fun,didn't shit in their own nest,everyone got on ok.

But the elder who ran the scheme? he had a Z car,XJ750,new Goldwing,2 big garages on his property and not a blade of grass,all concrete.The old boy did alright.

[SPman]

Kai Tahu are doing OK in the South Island - but then they"ve got a Scots- Maori running things :shifty:

Seems to me that a lot of the real things being done to help young maori, are being done by community members who really care about things, and do it off their own backs, then struggle to get money to keep going! When the big bucks are out there, for whatever cause, it seems to attract all the greedy, posturing, big noting,self important pricks, who are more interested in lining their own pockets, than actually bettering the lives of anyone other than themselves! :finger:

But, has it ever been otherwise?

[wkid_one]

Just got finished reading the NZ Herald,Big articule on this subject.
All the opinions exspressed were from Maori people.
Every thing from "We own this country and the whites should get used to it"
That came from a pig ugly fuck with a flat nose and white skin,To,"there are people in NZ that need special treatment and help,not all of them are Maori"
This from a dark skinned woman with Moko.Two extremes there!!
Then we get Tariana Turea saying all immigrants in NZ should go back were they came from.I guess she would need a time frame for that one huh!!
The whole thing for me has always been one of interest because of my own family history.Now we have a few dark horses in the old line up but basicly we are of Irish- Pah hau Nga Puhi ancestory.My older sister used the old Maori affairs to get a huge loan to buy a farm.At the time and still today I felt it was not the thing to do.After all she was a rich bitch to start with,And She don't atend the family Hui each five years because she don't like those people.So I look around me and I see The local Maori people geting handouts,Yet other than the old folks now driving new Mercedes and Holdens,The young people still get the same old FA.There is the SEA LORDS thing going on but other than the fat cats geting new office furnishings,flash cars,ect,ect, where is the money? I sure as hell Don't see it.And why is it that so many of the so called Maori making all the noise are whiter than me.
And why is it that the treaty is crap one day an then the best thing since sliced bread the next.If Maori kids are still geting FA from all this speical treatment,Where is the money really going.Is it all being spent on fat white women with a splash of Maori,Is it all going toward New cars for a few old fucks that were past their use by date fifty years ago.
So what the fuck is really going on in this country when half of it is for sale to rich Yanks and the bits left over are under constant attack by Money,Money,Money Grabing white Maoris.Do real Maori people get anything out of this,Do real New zealanders get anything out of it.Are there any real Maori people left in NZ,are there any real New Zealanders left in NZ.Hell it seems to me that most of both now live in Queensland and call each other Bro.
So whats your view on it.
And Hey Wickid I promise not to take offence unless you tell me to fuck off.
There that should get the ball rolling :D
Actually I agree 100%.

A prime example is the fishing rights up to 200miles offshore.....now I question the ability of the original inhabitants of this island to paddle 200 miles offshore in a hollowed out tree for some kai??

Also - take Athletic Park. They whinge and moan for years about the peppercorn lease that the Government signed for this peice of land about it being sacred land and them wanting it back. So finally the Government relents (not unusual) and gives it back to them. What do they do? Sell it to a developer who turns it in to a retirement village. Not only that - a predominantly pakeha occupancy also.

For all the whinging and moaning they undertake - they don't appear to be doing anything with the spoils of victory to better the country, maori - it only appears to be a certain limited number of fat cats who get fatter.

They have just 'OCCUPIED' Glover Park in Wellington - big fences around it atc - for what? Most likely so they can sell it to a Property Developer who can put $900,000 apartments on it - because that is helping their cause no end.

When the Europeans came across - they should have conquered NZ - not bargained - then this wouldn't be an issue.

And please don't get me wrong - I am not a bigot - I just hate seeing race always being used as a political tool to further the wealth of a selected few on the back of an 'impoverished many'

[What?]

- I am not a bigot - I just hate seeing race always being used as a political tool to further the wealth of a selected few on the back of an 'impoverished many'
Sez it all, Dan. Just like 99% of Kiwis, I should think.

[Hitcher]

Send your stories to www.donbrash.com

[Jackrat]

Yep ,It's a worry.
The thing that bothers me the most is the future.
We have Don brash playing on the emotions of the average joe,to gain political clout,We have Tariana turia making historicly incorrect statements(lies) to serve her own ends,what ever they are,We have Dover Samuals pretending to represent northland Maori,My own crowd!!!,While selling family land and pocketing the profits with out telling anybody,Then we have Winson Peters,Will screw anybody any time for any reason,As long as he don't have to prove it and as long as he has the protection of the house.
Then we have Helen Clarke,If I don't like you I will insult you, your family,
your cat,dog,And still never get to the point other than to say once again I don't give a shit what you think,And I can do that cause I'm the boss,But no way will I answer your Question.
And WE the voting public of NZ Still vote for these assholes,Then spend the next three years bitching about it,until we do it all over again.
At 47 I think I have probably seen the best years of NZ, now I feel very happy I encoraged my own dauther to stay in OZ and I worry for the future of todays kids.For them to walk the places I did twenty years ago they now need the OK from the American land owners.For my dauthers kids to play in the same places I did as a kid they now have to claim and prove their Whakapapa.The leaders of this country and us by default are fucking the place.New Zealand a Walt disney production,Nice place to vist but fuck living there.
This weather sucks too.

[Lou Girardin]

Do part Maori people get confused?
Aggrieved and guilty at the same time.

Seriously though, Don Brash only opened the floodgates for what people were already thinking. It's the old pendulum thing happening. It swung too far one way, now it's heading back. I hope it doesn't go too far back though, then we'll have real trouble.
Lou

[MikeL]

The thing that bothers me the most is the future.

This weather sucks too.

Yep. The wind just blew over my bike. Will it happen again?

But to turn to less serious matters, the bickering going on between Maori and Pakeha will stop when both sides realize that if any of us are to have a decent future in this country, we must unite against the common enemy: the combined threat of globalization, indiscriminate immigration and the piecemeal selling off of this country to foreigners, all of which will surely destroy the NZ way of life if allowed to continue. Squabbles over special treatment, past and present injustices, Treaty of Waitangi etc. will prevent us seeing the real issues. Brown or white, we have more in common than separates us, and collectively we all have too much to lose to waste our energies on fighting each other.

And perhaps this atrocious weather is not such a bad thing, if makes the country a bit less attractive to the American millionnaires lining up to buy our coastline piece by piece for their luxury homes, gated compounds and private beaches.

[Jackrat]

Gee if I was smart thats what I would'a said,Ummm I fink

[Jackrat]

Do part Maori people get confused?
Aggrieved and guilty at the same time.

Seriously though, Don Brash only opened the floodgates for what people were already thinking. It's the old pendulum thing happening. It swung too far one way, now it's heading back. I hope it doesn't go too far back though, then we'll have real trouble.
Lou

As I see them,Some decide they didn't really have white ancestors,Some decide they didn't really have Maori ancestors,Some are kept in the dark by their own familys, and some just get REAL pissed off.
I have all of them within my own family and I am #4, Like a hell of a lot of others who just want to get on with it, yet have to listen to both sides of a silly argument that we take no part in and receive nothing from.
And your right Lou,this weather really does suck.

[Jackrat]

Do part Maori people get confused?
Aggrieved and guilty at the same time.

Seriously though, Don Brash only opened the floodgates for what people were already thinking. It's the old pendulum thing happening. It swung too far one way, now it's heading back. I hope it doesn't go too far back though, then we'll have real trouble.
Lou

As I see them,Some decide they didn't really have white ancestors,Some decide they didn't really have Maori ancestors,Some are kept in the dark by their own familys, and some just get REAL pissed off.
I have all of them within my own family and I am #4, Like a hell of a lot of others who just want to get on with it, yet have to listen to both sides of a silly argument that we take no part in and receive nothing from.
I myself find the American Native situation very interesting and think if it was applyed in NZ things would change over night.
Their system is very simple,To be entitled to any native claims or speak on behalf of native peoples you must be at lest 50% native blood.Under that system most of the liars and con artists in NZ would be left without a leg to stand on.Hell two thirds of the NZ political system would fall on it's face over night.Nah never work aye,us Kiwis have been playing the us an them game for way to long to let honesty get in the way of a good yarn.
Interesting to see what the next election brings but.Me thinks helen is buggered.

[SPman]

But to turn to less serious matters, the bickering going on between Maori and Pakeha will stop when both sides realize that if any of us are to have a decent future in this country, we must unite against the common enemy: the combined threat of globalization, indiscriminate immigration and the piecemeal selling off of this country to foreigners, all of which will surely destroy the NZ way of life if allowed to continue. Squabbles over special treatment, past and present injustices, Treaty of Waitangi etc. will prevent us seeing the real issues. Brown or white, we have more in common than separates us, and collectively we all have too much to lose to waste our energies on fighting each other.
.
Gordon McLaughlan had another reasoned reasonable piece in the herald today
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3551802&thesection=news&thesubsection=dialogue
for those of you who dont get it.

Whats wrong with the weather - been for 2 long walks in it today already. Just crap for bikes is all!

[bondagebunny]

is that the Maoris who are making a buck out of the shit, convince their own people further down the food chain that they are victims of the white imperialist invasion.
Because with out victims they wont have a job.

there should be a cut off point ie 50% Maori or 25% Maori to get any benefit or perhaps a sliding scale on the the ammount of Maori blood ie a 64th gets a 64th of any benefits, that would make it not worth while for most.

But instead we have leading politicians telling people the only thing you need to be a maori is to feel that when you look in a mirror there is a maori looking back at you.

[Nouseforaname]

When they give me back my muskets and blankets that some relative of mine 100years ago that ive never ever ever met gave to them, then, and only then will i contemplate giving them back my land!

Cant we all just be friends? ill bring the cards and you bring the boil-up.

[James Deuce]

Actually US Whalers started the first round of Musket wars, and introduced grain spirits and a bunch of viral and bacterial illnesses.

Anybody thought of knocking up the US government for reparations??

[Zed]

This will continue as long as our beloved government continues to pay out! I don't believe that things will improve, but rather they will get worse.

Are you really hoping that our government will suddenly become reasonable and start listening to the nation?

Are you honestly hoping that these groups (Maori protestors & others) will just accept what the government decides & get back to living a normal life giving to society instead of taking?

Hmmm? Are your hopes built on a solid foundation? :confused:

You know what I believe- as for me and my house we will serve the Lord until he returns to sort it all out!


Zed

[MikeL]

You know what I believe- as for me and my house we will serve the Lord until he returns to sort it all out!


Zed

And when the earthly paradise is re-established I hope you and the other elect won't die of boredom...

[Zed]

And when the earthly paradise is re-established I hope you and the other elect won't die of boredom...
You have no imagination Mike!

[wkid_one]

A perfect world would suck! Of course - there would be no highsides would there ----hmmmm maybe it isn't all bad

[750Y]

"settle for nothing now, or settle for nothing later"... rage against the Machine
All I know is that at school as a kid i was disliked for being a Maori and now I feel I am being despised for being Maori. Everywhere I turn I have to listen to some more negative stuff in the media. I hear so much crap & BS it makes me laugh. when did you ever hear a positive comment about Maori from the media or middle NZ?. I'm not moaning, i see both sides unlike a large portion of middle NZ. people on both sides continue making my life less pleasant than it should be. I have to explain to a beautiful & smart 4 year old girl who comes home crying why people will treat them differently and how to deal with that, does middle NZ have to do that? ummm no, but they're the first to point finger again, that is stuff middle NZ never even thinks about or contemplates because it doesn't effect them so it doesn't enter into how they form their opinions. There is a whole lot of things that middle NZ doesn't have to deal with so it's actually quite hurtful to hear negative stuff from yet another ignorant person with an axe to grind. all I'm saying is that the issues are far wider than what's flavour of the month in parliament and the media today and far wider than Race. there is no magic bullet so go easy people there is a large part of New Zealand who is hurting over this stuff. Thanks

[Jackrat]

Yep,An thats why I encouaged my dauhter to stay in OZ,over there she can talk about her Maori heritage an nobody turns their nose up.
Growing up as "The step child" I had to listen to some pretty nasty stuff about my real family,all of which was aimed at me.Hell is it any wonder so many of our kids grow up angry now days.Well not mine, but then she don't live here and don't have to hear it.Some people might say my own solution is a bit of a cop out,But my own dauhter has grown up proud of who she is and has missed out on nothing but the bad stuff.I can trace my own lineage though my mother and her family directly back to Mirama Te hau,Dauhter of
Kameria Te hau Wharepapa, and back from there several hundred years,Yet when I look in the mirror all I see is a Kiwi.When I was a kid I had the shit kicked out of me a number of time for telling people that fact.My dauhter hasn't had to put up with that kind of thing and neither will her kids.
My first Irish ancestor to arrive in NZ was William Gough, Aka Tomahawk Gough, Don brash would not like to have run into him,But thats another story.

[Skyryder]

Many of the problems with the country are one of attitude. Everybody regardless of social circumstances wants something for nothing. This was evident in the Winbox affair. Shift the money around and increase the take without having to do a days work. Blame the treaty for all maori social problems, then it lets you off the hook. Hey bro not my fault if I can not get a job, feed the kids, etc. Well I could go on and on with this theme but I'm sure you get the picture.

I am firmly of the opinion that until our politicians recognize the right that they are here for our benifit and not their own personal agenda's, refugees, or even ideoligical theories (Rodgernomics etc) will 'we the people' finaly be given the respect that we deserve reguardless of race, religion or ethinicity. Like sheep we follow the leader and if our leaders give us no respect them we seem unable to give it to ourselves. This to me seems to be the underlying problem of this country. Ultimately we are the masters of our own attitude and with it the future for ourselves.

Skyryder

[Ms Piggy]

"settle for nothing now, or settle for nothing later"... rage against the Machine
All I know is that at school as a kid i was disliked for being a Maori and now I feel I am being despised for being Maori. Everywhere I turn I have to listen to some more negative stuff in the media. I hear so much crap & BS it makes me laugh. when did you ever hear a positive comment about Maori from the media or middle NZ?. I'm not moaning, i see both sides unlike a large portion of middle NZ. people on both sides continue making my life less pleasant than it should be. I have to explain to a beautiful & smart 4 year old girl who comes home crying why people will treat them differently and how to deal with that, does middle NZ have to do that? ummm no, but they're the first to point finger again, that is stuff middle NZ never even thinks about or contemplates because it doesn't effect them so it doesn't enter into how they form their opinions. There is a whole lot of things that middle NZ doesn't have to deal with so it's actually quite hurtful to hear negative stuff from yet another ignorant person with an axe to grind. all I'm saying is that the issues are far wider than what's flavour of the month in parliament and the media today and far wider than Race. there is no magic bullet so go easy people there is a large part of New Zealand who is hurting over this stuff. Thanks

Ok well I'm not Maori but I have to say that I get pretty pissed off with 'middle N.Z' talking like they know wot they're on about! :mad:

I'm sorry but I just have to say my bit here b/c I get so sick of red necked idiots who think the Treaty was just about blankets & a little bit of Land!! Read the literature and all about the way the Hobson & his boys deceived Maori into thinking the Treaty was something other than what it was and then not honouring it anyway! :argh:

As a white NZer I have never experienced the treatment 750Y and his little girl have experienced. I have Maori friends who have always experienced a certain look when they enter a room.

I know this forum wasn't just about the Treaty and I know it's not going to be an easy thing to fix but, I get fed up with the "White way is the Right way" attitude heaps of middle N.Z seem to have.

Ok let some steam off now. :calm:

[dangerous]

As a white NZer I have never experienced the treatment 750Y

I'm white, and I have and on more than one ocasion and who kicked the shit out of me 'the not so white' and it will never happen again.
There are to many 'do gooders in this country' :beer:

[duckman]

"Middle NZ" - Excuse my ignorance but.. Who the Fuck is that??

I presume because I'm white and working, I'm lumped into this catergory ?? Or not ??

It's like people think, "us white folk" are getting together every Wednesday night and organising how we can keep the Maori man down!!

I'm just sick and tired of being labelled "well off and privileged" cause I'm white. I got just as many "beats" while I was at school, I came from what would be considered a "broken home", and we didn't always have the money for stuff.... so in what way am I soooooo advantaged ??

Get real :mad:

[DEATH_INC.]

I wish everyone would get the f**k over themselves,forget all this treaty crap,and get on with life and stop running this poor little country of ours into the ground!We all f*****g live here,we should just get on with it and stop wasting time and money on this stupid treaty shit!:angry2:

[franco]

well, this is quite non-biker related isn't it? I keep thinking about Zed's first thread when we partake in conversations like these hahaha! (no offence bro).

I'm half-caste (50/50 Maori/ Pakeha). Grew up with both cultures. I'm always classed as Maori not pakeha, don't ask me why it's just the way NZ culture works, aye? Doesn't matter, I'm proud being a pleasant Maori/Pakeha mix on top of being a Kiwi.

To be honest, on this issue I'm disgusted with both sides. We have Brash pushing a sensitive culture-related issue to unashamedly increase his brownie points with the majority of NZ'ers (non-Maori) for personal and party political gain. Personally I think he would have been better off to wait for the election year, but hey, as a country I don't think we ever have claimed to have the brightest politicians...

And we have a minority of Maori radicals reacting to the issue in their typical radical way, coupled with the previous indescretions of certin Maori political leaders (very much a minority) making it appear all Maori are money hungry, theiving and self serving complainers. And the rest of us fellas get tarred with the same brush so to speak...

Well I'm Maori, and none of my family (extended and immediate) haven't recieved a penny of all the fishing $$ or land or foreshore rights everyone is so concerned about. I have a mortgage like most other land owners. I pay the same council rates, and income taxes like everyone else. So why do we insist with escalating this this into a culture/race war?

People believe too much about they read in newspapers or watch on TV, ignoring that journos and reporters are always trying to make a story out of something. And we suck it in as truth.

I dunno, never cared for politics, don't think I ever will. I'm just glad NZ is not an Iraq or Ireland or some f*cked up republic in Europe or Africa where they have REAL problems, like war, ethnic cleansing, and religion-inspired murders and massacres.

Well, off the ol' soapbox now, weather looks good, might leave work a little early and go for a ride tonite...

cher cher

[Ms Piggy]

I'm white, and I have and on more than one ocasion and who kicked the shit out of me 'the not so white' and it will never happen again.
There are to many 'do gooders in this country' :beer:

I have thought about what I "said" last night and I must apologise for being such a hot head :weep: I was very blunt & insensitive, I'm sorry. It's what I believe but the way I put it was a bit full on & disrespectful, with a whole lot of generalisations. :Oops:

I know there are people other than Maori that have experience racism and I know that this whole issue is HUGE and I don't think there will ever be a single solution.

So, sorry if I offended any one/everyone/noone. :bye:

p.s I agree Dangerous, there are too many 'do gooders' but there also seem to be a lot of misinformed people when it comes to the Treaty & Maori issues in general. Okay I'll shut up now! :shutup:

[James Deuce]

Ok well I'm not Maori but I have to say that I get pretty pissed off with 'middle N.Z' talking like they know wot they're on about! :mad:

I'm sorry but I just have to say my bit here b/c I get so sick of red necked idiots who think the Treaty was just about blankets & a little bit of Land!! Read the literature and all about the way the Hobson & his boys deceived Maori into thinking the Treaty was something other than what it was and then not honouring it anyway! :argh:

As a white NZer I have never experienced the treatment 750Y and his little girl have experienced. I have Maori friends who have always experienced a certain look when they enter a room.

I know this forum wasn't just about the Treaty and I know it's not going to be an easy thing to fix but, I get fed up with the "White way is the Right way" attitude heaps of middle N.Z seem to have.

Ok let some steam off now. :calm:

Thought you felt that way.

I come from a persecuted tribe. The Celts of central europe. Walsh is derived from Wolz. My tribe was turfed out of Central Europe and migrated after staying with our cousins in Spain (the Basques) for a while, to Ireland in the 15th Century. My particular branch of the family was then turfed out of Ireland in the 19th century for daring to express the extravagant claim that there was no famin in Ireland and could we please eat something other than potatoes, given that they are all rotting in the ground. The English "transported" them to Australia, and once they had won their freedom my Great-great grandfather started a pub and saved the money to send his family to NZ because there was more money and better living conditions mining coal on the West Coast of the Sth Island.

I don't waste a lot of time expecting redress for past injustices, and as far as I know there has never been any recognition that the Celts were hard done by, except in there own literature, both oral and written. Celtic culture has been all but destroyed except for a couple of enclaves in Ireland, Scotland, and Spain. But that's just history and it's what happens. My cultural heritage isn't available to me, but I am proud of the culture I live in now, and that my children will grow up in.

I'm also one of the hated White middle class New Zealanders who has the guts ripped out of his pay packet every fortnight, is not eligible for any for of government support, and isn't eligible for any grant to further my education, or that of my family. I don't have enough money to set up a trust fund to protect my assets or provide some tax relief, and I have a dependent wife (who will be going back to work as soon as she is well enough to) and 2 children. But I'm still the hated Pakeha who has ripped Maori off and isn't doing enough to redress the issues of the past.

Hobson was an Employee of the British Empire. Busby had his own commercial interests and the gutter morals that any successful capitalist needs. As far as I know New Zealand is the only place where the BE attempted to establish a formal relationship with the "natives". To their enormous credit Maori kicked the crap out of a supposedly more powerful foe many times over the next 60 years whenever they stepped outside this agreement. WWI trench warfure, bunkers, and the concept of strategic forts with no worth other than to spend the enemy's strength were developed by a 70 year old Nga Puhi Chief called Kawiti.

Maori were defeated by the fact that their's was an agrarian society and they couldn't spare the manpower required for a standing army. I have no doubt that if they could have, there would be a Maori nation or confederation of Maori states in New Zealand, and us "evil" white people would all still be in Australia or Europe.

But settlers and later immigrants are not included in the Treaty of Waitangi. These people have become the "Pakeha" (a word of dubious origin and meaning according to my Nga Puhi Primary School Maori culture teacher) of New Zealand and are now responsible for trying to implement redress for the acknowledged wrongdoings of the capitalist enterprises (such as the New Zealand Company - the Enron of the 1860s) that settled "White" New Zealand.

There's no model for this anywhere else in the world. I grew up in a lower socio-economic area and my Dad was a labourer. Race was never an issue for me until Maori sovreignty activists made it one. I think cultural identity and race are two separate and distinctive definitions. I love the idealistic attitude the drives New Zealanders to try to make a viable culture that accommodates and acknowledges everyone who lives here. New Zealand is one of the most tolerant and beautiful country's in the world but "line in the sand" attitudes are in danger of ruining it for ever.

We need people to stop sticking labels on people such as "red neck", or "Maori activist". It achieves nothing and wastes vast amounts of energy arguing points that neither side will ever understand. I believe that Maori should be allowed the freedom and help to develop their own "Nationhood" - but not at any cost or indeed "full and final" payment. It's never full nor final. You may not think this, or believe that there is any evidence of it, but as a white "middle-class" male I feel very discriminated against. I belong, if we are to believe the analysis of statisticians to a group of murdering, wife-beating, thieving, ecology exploiting, rapist , child pornographers. The only way for me to improve my standing in NZ society is to wear women's clothes or go the whole hog and get a sex change. O, and go on a benefit.

I've no guilt left to give and precious little patience for the idea that me and my children must pay,and continue to pay for this process, especially when MPs such as Tariana Turia make fatuous comments like "You white people can go home if you don't like it". But, oops! I've just expressed myself and done so in a way that isn't PC, so I must be a racist. It is difficult to treat this issue with the respect it deserves respect when Maori Intelligensia, Business people, tribal organisations and Government officials (who whether you like it or not claim to represent Maori as a whole) obviously and openly have no respect for, or knowledge of the history and culture, of a large percentage of the population of evil white bastards of New Zealand. And little truck with the idea that you catch more flies with honey. Maori culture is fun, and the language is both grandiose and functional at once. Share it and make it enjoyable and one day you may just end up with culture that expresses the constituent parts of New Zealand. At the moment Maori culture is used as a weapon in a "war" against Pakeha "domination".

750Y would never get treated as sub-human by me. Nor would any person who treats me with a modicum of basic respect. I am more than alittle offended that you have dropped me into the red-neck bucket because of the colour of my skin, and that fact that I have different views than your on the issue - isn't that the definition of unreasoning discrimination. It looks different!! It thinks Different!! Killlssss It!!

[SPman]

Hmmm
A powerful post, that, in so many ways, speaks for a lot of us!

How about a link to an alternative maori tribal view.
http://www.listener.co.nz/default,1562.sm

[riffer]

I agree with you Jim.

My family has faced persecution based on race on both sides, with the Celtic side in Scotland and the Latvian/Jewish side in Riga. My last name, while sounding German, actually comes from the Russian Baltic country of Latvia.

My great-great-great grandfather, Wolfe Gottlieb, escaped (with his family of some nine-odd children) the purges of Stalin and together they trekked across Europe eventually finding England, where he and the children worked menial jobs until they saved enough money to earn passage to this country.

My mothers family were dirt poor and my grandfather had to cycle from Edinburgh to Leith every day to get work which just put food on the table for their family. My mother was one of the young women who came out on the boats in the early 60s to New Zealand.

My family has had to work damn hard to get anything in life and never demanded any handouts - I was brought up to feel the same way.

While I don't deny some Maori were treated incredibly harshly I feel the victim mentality has been pushed too far. Certain people are profiting and the "victims" never see the money.

When I was growing up in the 1970s there was never this Maori and Pakeha thing. Maybe I was sheltered. All I know is, at Taita College there was an equal mix of a lot of races, pakeha, maori, islander, and asian. Race was never an issue - if you forget that the white kids were punks and the brown kids were into reggae or breakdancing.

I'm not a racist though. I'm proud my wife and step-son are Tainui. But we're not going to be looking for a handout just because of their race. Ngai Tahu should be held up as an example for Maori. Although I don't agree with a lot they do there's no denying their positive influence on their people. And I congratulate them for it.

Perhaps they could share some of their wisdom to us all.

[Hitcher]

Jim

Well said! As a sixth-generation New Zealander whose ancestors (well some of them) were Scottish crofters driven off by the English land clearances I empathise well with your sentiments. People are people. We have to learn to celebrate diversity and difference and get along with each other.

At times like these I am reminded of the poignant words of Austin Powers' father Nigel: "The two things I hate the most are racial intolerance and the Dutch!"

[Holy Roller]

Jim

Well said! As a sixth-generation New Zealander whose ancestors (well some of them) were Scottish crofters driven off by the English land clearances I empathise well with your sentiments. People are people. We have to learn to celebrate diversity and difference and get along with each other.

At times like these I am reminded of the poignant words of Austin Powers' father Nigel: "The two things I hate the most are racial intolerance and the Dutch!"
Like hitcher I too am a 6th generation New zealander on my fathers side on my mothers side I'm Scottish from the Isle of Skye they got turfed of the land to make may for sheep... :whistle: Their croft is still standing (will go visit one day) Also like celticno6 My grandmothers side were from the Rhine, Swiss German, also had to escape to NZ. While I have no Maori blood I have plenty of Maori relations (any one remember Freddy Woodman and his bro..Allblacks in the 80's)

all said to show that lots of NZ's have a case for redress but lets not let that get in the way of celebrating diversity and difference and to get along with each other. Not all of the English wanted to rip off Maori in the 1800's just follow the case of Parahaka in the Taranaki. It seemed to be a case of evil triumphing over good at that time just as it seems to happen today in other places and people.
United we are strong divided we show our undergarments to the world stage.

[Motu]

As an 18 yr old I sold my 1938 Chev Coupe for $150 - I was very naive at the time and had no idea as to the true value of the vehicle,especially in light of later developments,them becoming collector vehicles and such.I feel I was taken advantage of,although with my lack of experiance at the time I didn't realize this - so....um....ah....yeah - I reckon I should either have the car returned to me,or to be pepaid at it's current value,say...ah...wadda ya reckon mate? $18,000? should keep me happy.I realize some of you may think this is being rather extravagant - but you weren't there,you didn't know how much the car meant to me,how much fun and enjoyment it gave me ,how many girls it pulled - to be deprived of it,the loss of enjoyment of life,it just cuts me to the bone,I am only a shadow of my former self...I have cried every day since I sold it.Please...help me and give me your support,sign my petition and write a letter to your MP on my behalf.Thanks for listening.(shit,this Tawny Ports got a kick)

Oh yeah,we had to go round to this dickhead mothers house on Xmas eve and threaten the bastard to get the rest of the money,I mean,ya shouldn't have to stoop this low y'know?

[Hoon]

Well I'm Maori and I'm all for race based privileges because I consider myself to be one of the success stories.

(/cue obligatory sob story to win hearts before launching into spiel).

I grew up in suburban Auckland in a poor solo parent Maori family. My dad moved to the city to start a family, drove yellow buses for almost 20 years and put a lot of effort into making sure we got a good education. I didn't take school as serious as I should have and only now that I'm grown up do I realise how much effort he actually made. Whenever I fell in with the wrong crowd and got into trouble (which I did regularly), after a good hiding I would be forbidden to hang out with them again.

Anyway I finished 7th form and went to University. I applied for every Maori University grant/ financial assistance under the sun and even though I didn't have good enough marks for some courses I was still able to get in under the 5% Maori quota. After my BSc I went straight into a great paying IT job where I have been for the last 8 years. I now consider myself to be a productive member of society and am now well poised to provide my offspring (and them theirs) a great opportunity at life. My sister got a conjoint BCom/BSc and after we left home my dad quit the buses, went to Uni as an adult student and left with a Master of Arts degree with first class honours.

(edit: I should mention that the grants and handouts I received by no means paid my way and only totalled about $3000 over the years, likewise with my sister and father)

However my cousins aren't so lucky. Most are school drop outs with no jobs, too many kids and some in prison/heavily involved in crime, drugs and alcohol.
If it weren't for my fathers determination to break the cycle and the govt handouts, I have no doubt that I'd be in the same boat as my rural cousins.

(/end sob story)

Its no secret that lots of Maoris end up in prison. I read somewhere that it cost $86,000 a year to keep someone in prison. The Govt can either keep forking out $86K pa or they can address the root of the problem. To me it makes perfect sense to give a helping hand in the early stages and turn a potential drain on the economy into a contributing member.

However human nature dictates that all sorts of emotions arise when one gets a bigger slice than the other (like giving 2 children unequal ice creams). I have no idea whether this is due to our competitive nature, primal survival, greed, culture or what (I studied Comp Sci not Psych/Anthro) but this impulse reaction blinds people even if there is a logical reason (say one kid is bigger and needs more ice cream, or maybe he didn't have any breakfast?), it doesn't matter even if there are long term benefits - all that matters is that you get the same amount or he doesn't get it at all.

I have no faith in Don Brash, not because he wants to remove these privileges but because he is willing to prey on these natural instincts, aggrevate the situation and throw away the progress of politicians before him all for the sake of personal/political gain.

I fully agree that some Maoris are lazy and others are greedy. I see it within my own whanau but stopping race based privileges isn't going to fix the problem, only make it worse. If some are abusing it then the solution is tighter criteria/control not removal.

Race based privilege doesn't mean "he gets this because hes a different colour". It means "he gets this because his kind need more help than you do and in the long run it'll pay off".

[James Deuce]

Race based privilege doesn't mean "he gets this because hes a different colour". It means "he gets this because his kind need more help than you do and in the long run it'll pay off".

A perfect example of that is the Maori Health Initiatives that target health issues peculiar to Maori. On average a Maori male is twice as likely to die of heart disease as a NZ male of European descent and half as likely to receive help in the form of drugs and surgical treatment (like angioplasty).

Good idea to target the problem, educate, and where necessary medicate EARLY. Prevents long term health costs later on, and means that mokopunas get to get kicked around by koru a bit longer :)

[Ogri]

Actually I agree 100%.

TOTALLY OFF TOPIC

WO - Me thinks that's 'Yer Maun' the late, great Joey Dunlop at Ballaugh Bridge on the Island. Am I right?

[Jackrat]

Having just read of the Ngai Tahu approach I couldn't agree more.
The statement that they will not have any thing to do with race based privilages is the very reason why I was so unhappy with members of my own famiily for taking Maori affairs loans to by farm land.My own view was that if your not stupid or useless then why would you need a benifit unavailable to the rest of NZ.Of course this point of view makes me about as popular as a dog turd,but I'm used to that, so what the hell.
What a lot of people seem to have a problem with is separating the return of Iwi property and compensation for land theft,with race based privilages,they are not the same thing.What an Iwi does with land or money awarded them for what ever reason,has nothing to do with anybody but themselfs.
A system that awards people for claiming that due to their race they need a hand up can't last for long.Every Maori person that takes advantage of this system are doing their own people a diservice by making it appear that with out a hand up the whole race is incapable of standing on it's own two feet.
As a person of Part Maori heritage my self,I cannot support a system that assumes my people are stupid and need a hand out to servive.
Maybe Ngai Tahu should be put in charge of Maori affairs.
After all the Gov't hasn't got a fucking clue,and Don Brash is no better.

[mangell6]

Quick note, longer one coming

Jackrat stop clarifying the issues, they are all meant to be left in a big lump so that "we" can get all upset and abuse everyone :lol:

There was an article in the herald about Maori landowners at Raglan and how they were stopping people walking over their land to get to the beach/surf. The land owners were maori and they were stopping people from getting to the Raglan foreshore. Yeah Right! The land was not "Maori land" and anyone who asked to cross the property to get to the beach was granted permission. All those who didn't want to ask got upset when the property owners yelled at them to get off their property.

[mangell6]

Apologies in advance for the length of the post and fir it being disjointed.

Here are a couple of statements that are factual.

The Maori concept of ownership is vastly different to the European concept of ownership.

One group of invaders (british) signed an agreement with the then Inhabitants (maori).

Greedy people and politicians got the rules changed that economically advantaged themselves.

Greedy indivuduals created situations that caused lands to be confiscated.

In the eighties the then Government decided that it would sell the countries assets.

The Maori concept of ownership is vastly different to the European concept of ownership. It needs repeating.

The media is selling a product and it ain't the news!

Humans are lazy - Who won't take a hand out if it is offered!

======

Who has read the 'alternate' history of NZ? I had a boss who was an old english Sargent Major he had a copy of a small book that outlined the background to some of the events that occured in NZ in the 1800s. This one talks about the two men who had a big hand in creating the Bank of NZ, had a big hand in the Waikato wars, and who got bailed out by the NSW Government. It also talks about the law changes that occured to prevent Maori from owning and sailing ships - can't recall exactly but to sail a ship you had to be/have a ships Master/Captain, to be a Master/Captain you had to be a landowner . . . . . land is "owned" by the hapu/iwi not by the individual. BoP Maori traded with Auckland, using sailing ships and canoes.

I watched on the history channel how the Celts, also an agarian culture, were conquored by the invaders, the Maori were never conquored, the invaders choose to have an agreement with them.

Governments, especially 'socialist ones' have a habit of knowing what its best for you. When local Hapu and Iwi started Te Kohanga Reo it spread very quickly through out the Maori communities, there was no assistance from Government as it did not fit in with the European style education model nor the Goverment policies and handouts. Later on the Government realised that these Kohangas were getting a bit too wide spread so a law was passed that redefined 'pre-schools' and required that there be "trained" and "certified" educators. This caused many Kohangas serious problems as the reason they were set up in the first instance was that there were no TeReo teachers in schools. (Don't go on about the tokenism that existed in the education system at the time.)

Helen Clarke will not allow Maori or any other group to be self-sufficient, study her own ancestory and values, this is something that she inherited. Don Brash wants National to be the next Government, hence his speech. Both parties conduct polls to gauge public opinion and they manipulate the media accordingly.

I like how the media whips up emotion, comparing "generalities" to "specifics" to "prove" how wrong/unfair/damaging, etc the generality is. The Listener article, spoken of in an earlier post, is a case in point taking a general statement and applying it to one iwi to whom it does not apply, by implication the general statement is therefore wrong.

Unless you as an individual can understand and appreciate what it actually means to BOTH sides an accurate assessment cannot be made.

Lower socio-ecomonic groups are generally the group that is in the minority, this applies to a lot of things even 'drivers'. Check out the race of the so called 'worst' NZ drivers, are they the majority of NZ drivers.

=====



Well I'm Maori and I'm all for race based privileges because I consider myself to be one of the success stories.

<SNIP>
Race based privilege doesn't mean "he gets this because hes a different colour". It means "he gets this because his kind need more help than you do and in the long run it'll pay off".
HO-Hoon good on you, you are one of many whose parents recognised that to get out of the 'poverty trap' you needed to take advantage of the opportunities offered. My parents had the same attitude and four of the five of us kids took the (different) opportunities that were offered us. The other liked it there and has stayed.

I was just watching a program on TV that was talking about the "untouchables" (who don't officially exist) in India. This group of society has granted special dispensation in the form of 'quotas' to gain education and employment. Education in the form that 'ex' number student positions are reserved for them and 'ex' number of Government jobs are also reserved for the untouchables. ALL Indian public schools must provide them with education, however this doesn't really work in outlying areas. The program put in place is paying dividends but "to change 15 centuries of culture is a slow process"


I'm also one of the hated White middle class New ZealandersJim2 Its worse than that for you (and me) you are also a MAN!!!!

Disclaimer: To my knowledge I have no Maori heritage I only have Jewish German (Eastern), Celtic (Scots), Anglo (no saxon) heritage.

[bondagebunny]

if they had the balls to finish the job during the maori wars we would not be in this shit today - so the government should claim from them all the ocsts and payouts on the basis that they were too lily livered to wipe out the problem before it became one.

[Lou Girardin]

My Grandfather and many of his mates were interned on Soames Island during WW2.
My Grandmothers land was taken under the Public Works Act for college extensions in Johnsonville. She received a pittance and most of the land was not used.
Who the hell do I claim from? Will the Waitangi Tribunal hear a claim from the Ngati Italiano?
Lou

[Jackrat]

ALL of the people who came to NZ all came here of their own free will.They all could of gone somewhere else.regardless of who they were running away from.If any of their off spring have a problem with how their ancestors were treated two hundred years ago,they could all fuck off back there and have a moan.GOOD LUCK.The old Maori did not have the luxury of running away and their off spring of today are standing up for them selfs on a number of fronts.
It never fails to amaze me that people can run from agression in their own land an then atempt to do the same thing to the people of the land they arrive at, as was done to them.My own Irish ancestors came to NZ to escape the situation created by the english in their home country,a situation created I might point out by the english church.On arrival in NZ they were taken in by NGA PUHI and married into Wha hau.It wasn't very long before they saw the english trying on the same old crap here as they did in the old country.At this stage they joined in the struggle against the english.The english did not present a treaty because they were nice guys,they did it because they were loseing the armed struggle.And we all know what a crock of shit the treaty turned out to be.Even today in typical english style the treaty is being twisted to mean any number of things,very little of what the Maori who signed it imagined it would mean.Today we have the situation that when Ever
an Iwi or Maori in general manage to claw back a little of what was stolen,The ancestors of those who never stood up for themselfs in their own countrys and then stole from the people of their new country,are all geting their knickers in a twist.So bondage bunny where are you and your kind going to run next,and do you think you will be made welcome.The poms ain't going to save your ass this time.

[bondagebunny]

aint going to run anywhere - Born Here so is as much my country as any maori born after the end of the land wars.
My point was the english were leiniant with the maori - in other countries invading forces (yes the brits were) wiped out the natives. THey didnt fuk about signing treaties Mind you that is what the maori did to the native Mori Ori here when they arrived.

Take no prisioners, sign no treaty, slash and burn is the only way to take over a country. anything less will result in trouble in the future.

better still dont invade anyone - stay on your own side of the fence

[Jackrat]

aint going to run anywhere - Born Here so is as much my country as any maori born after the end of the land wars.
My point was the english were leiniant with the maori - in other countries invading forces (yes the brits were) wiped out the natives. THey didnt fuk about signing treaties Mind you that is what the maori did to the native Mori Ori here when they arrived.

Take no prisioners, sign no treaty, slash and burn is the only way to take over a country. anything less will result in trouble in the future.

better still dont invade anyone - stay on your own side of the fence

Short history lesson.The english had no choise but to propose a treaty,They were losing the land wars,and had to find another way of undermining Maori.
Remember this was a time after the musket wars and Maori were starting to join against the english.IE the Kingitai movment ect.The english could see what was coming and they knew they could not prevent it with arms.Hense the treaty.Another small point, it was not the Maori alone who killed off Moriori.Govenor Gray shipped Te kooti and his followers to the Chathams when he became aware of how strong his "Te Kooti's" following was.
Gray gave his permission on behalf of the crown for Te Kooti to take what ever he wanted of the Chathams.Seeing as how Maori of the time still practised MARU and Gray knew it,The Moriori suffered a rather nasty fate.
So you can see the english once again had their fingers in the pie.
Unfortunatly for Gray.Te Kooti returned to the main land and was never captured by the english again,he also went on to help create the Kingitai movement.Once the english Govt' of the day got news of Grays part in the destruction of Moriori and his failure to capture Te Kooti,He was then recalled to Sydney were he could do no more damage.
It is belived by most Kiwis that the English won the land wars But in fact they were losing badly,Maori at the time were starting to recognize the english tactic of useing one tribe against another,so a treaty was the only way out.I agree with your statement that you have every right to be in NZ as anyone else, but I also find your statement that the english should have finished the JOB to be both insulting and uninformed.
Shortly before the treaty was signed the whole of Auckland was under constant kerfew and was awaiting orders to evacuate to NSW,such was the state of the english lack of abilitie to protect the place.So you can see they never had the abilitie to wipe em' out.Prior to the treaty it was in fact the other way round.Had the northern Ariki listened to Heke rather than Hobson
Auckland would of been history.There are a number of very good books available that tell the truth of just how useless the english were.The only thing they were in fact good at was decite.And that is what is being addressed today.

[Lou Girardin]

19th century history shows, that with the exception of Afghanistan, when the Poms wanted something they got it!
Lou

[bondagebunny]

what I was getting at and I think pisses a lot of people off is this

basically the maori want the best of both worlds.
wanting reparations from the past can not be seperated from the present and the future.
what are they going to pay for the improvements in their lives, ie they are no longer running round in grass skirts living in mud huts etc (simplyfied)
They drive white mans cars, watch white mans movies, have better housing,
live longer, altho they still lag behind the white man in health stakes etc but it must be admited a lot of that is choice for instance more maori smoke, and that is there choice. They have peace to do so with out worrying about getting invaded and eaten.
The settlement of NZ was in no way a one way street. Maori did all right out of it especailly those who did the trades for land - altho I expect it much as today the chief who sold the land kept the goodies he got for it. No trickle down then either.

Sure it aint a perfect deal but nothing ever is and tey should take up the complaints with the ancestors of the chief who sold the land not the buyer.

I still say they got a good deal in not being given small pox blankets as the US did to the native americans, they were not hunted for sport as were the Aborogines in OZ, they were not dominated and torture to the same degree of the Brits did to the India peoples.

All around the world shit was done to the natives, but the maoris were treated better than most.

To the maoris who want ot have a maori parliament to run this country so they can have there own justice systems etc OK but you have to pay to use
all the stuff like roads, schools, tv, radio, hospitals etc that are provided by NZers
That is ALL NZers who dont agree with this type of shit.

The maori is nearly extinct - true full bloods are rare if not non existant.
and the question is if less than 50% blood how can the lesser part qualify for benefits etc.

[Yamahamaman]

To the maoris who want ot have a maori parliament to run this country so they can have there own justice systems etc OK
Hmmm. I don't see it as a great idea. Take, for example, Maori TV and the Cellular Telephone concessions. They are years old and there are still no resolutions apart for a holding channel on Sky Digital.

Nepitism takes away democracy as so many countries have found out to their detriment.

As having descended from Maori and Non-Maori, can I be called a racist?

Murray

[Motu]

Shit,I really hate to agree with you bunnykins - but yer right...of all the indingenous races put under the thumb of the all powerful white man,the Maori have come off bloody well,and until a few years ago we all thought they had intergrated quite well.But perhaps this has given them a stronger voice,they are arguing as I hope equals and not lesser beings as in some countries.

Genoside has been committed in this country - by acts of love,not war.

[Jackrat]

White mans cars did not exisist back then nor did a lot of other white mans things.Most of these things have come about regardless of anybody.An what makes anybody think the old Maori was not happy with his lot anyway.
You cannot compear Maori with other natives in other lands because the british took their best shot and failed, so what happened to a bunch of abo's was a totaly different thing.Had the british been able to pull an Oz'y they would have but they were not up to it.Remember it was Maori who taught the british both trench war fare and also Guerilla warfare,What ever the british did to other races they tryed here also and failed.I fail to see how Maori were in any way lucky.Remember also it was a Maori person that formed the basis of the welfair state that is NZ today,not some pom.
And why should Maori pay for the use of roads ect that they have already payed for with their taxes just like any other New Zealander.They didn't just turn up yesterday.And weather you like it or not there is a treaty and that treaty is now having to be honored for the first real time in NZs history.
Any white New Zealander who thinks The poms should not have signed that treaty are missing the fact that Maori would of taken the whole country back other wise.And most of us would be speaking with an Ozy accent today.
Get used to it,The poms needed that treaty,not the other way round.You all should study NZ history, a few of the myths would come crumbling down around your ears.As for asimilation,that has always been a joke,since when was one people always bending to the will of another been asimilation,we were ment to be one people, not one making all the rules with the other blindly following until all their culture and history is lost or rewriten to suit the other.Kiwi efforts would be better spent in stoping the NZ Gov't allowing huge tracts of NZ being sold off to over seas interests rather than worrying about Maori having the treaty they signed honoured for a change.In the future White NZ will have their little 1/4 acre block and nothing else because
they have been stupid enough to listen to the likes of Don Brash while their birth rite is being sold out from under them.Maori are not the real problem in this country but they certainly make a nice smoke screen to be used by the Gov't.Do you really think the future American and Japanese owners of NZ are going to give a damn about the dumb fuck Kiwis that allowed their counrty to be sold off.Give it another 100yrs and white NZ is going to get a taste of it's own.But Maori will still be here and probably rolling in it.

[mangell6]

BondageBunny

Good to see that you are bringing up the illogical argument of the 'natives' are better off because we invaded their country and made them have a better lifestyle. This is based on the assumption that your lifestyle is better than theres.

That is the same logic that is currently being used by America. Some western christian religous groups beleive that their faith is the only faith and that your faith is wrong, so they have to correct you.

Last century the majority if not all of the 'maori land' that was obtained under the public works act was never 'paid for', other land that was in individual ownership was 'paid for' no matter how small the pittance was that the government paid.

[bondagebunny]

it is the 1/8th or 1/64th of the maori blood that rules the other 7/8ths or 63/64ths for some reason other than greed but it is getting harder to see it in the murk.

my lot were irish and german spanish and pom so who do I take all my sad arse grievences up with. No One - I have enuff strength of character to more forward on my own something about the 1/64th of maori that wont allow these non maori to do so with out a hand out from someone.

[Zed]

...Some western christian religous groups beleive that their faith is the only faith and that your faith is wrong, so they have to correct you...
Tell me Mengell6, why do you think these "groups" go about correcting others about their faith?

Declare if you have any understanding on such matters?


Zed

[Jackrat]

it is the 1/8th or 1/64th of the maori blood that rules the other 7/8ths or 63/64ths for some reason other than greed but it is getting harder to see it in the murk.

my lot were irish and german spanish and pom so who do I take all my sad arse grievences up with. No One - I have enuff strength of character to more forward on my own something about the 1/64th of maori that wont allow these non maori to do so with out a hand out from someone.

The big difference between your/my old Irish ancestors and Maori is that our ancestors gave up and ran away,The Maori have never done this.You like myself have no choise but to live with the mistakes of our irish ancestors,it's not a matter of character it's a matter of choise,or the lack of choise.The Maori have a treaty with the NZ Govt' We as NZ citizens are also bound by that treaty.Why should Maori give up anything because your/my ancestors burnt all their bridges,Maori did not,they forced a treaty.Hey I reckon it would be a great idea to return to county Tyrone and reclaim all that was my familys before the english and their lackys stole it all, But I don't have a treaty with the bloody english because we were sold out by our own country men,The struggle goes on today,But do you want to go back there and get involved.Bugger that not me mate.
The small issues we have today in NZ are nothing compeared to the shit going on in IRA land,plus the weather is better here.And nobody wants to kill me for being Catholic.I really don't know whats wrong with giving back to people that were stolen from and that we live in treaty with.After all it will cost me nothing,Even if the whole country was run by a Maori Govt' it would cost me nothing,I don't get any real say it how the country is run now,so what does it matter who I'm being ignored by.Hey a change of political system might be a good thing.Yeah, get rid of all the current bludgers an get us some new ones.We can put Lou in charge of the police force and see what changes,Motu can become minister of transport,Wickid minister of information,you in charge of prisons,KK and CK can look after speed control on public roads,Zed can look after the enlightenment of all them ignorant nonbelivers, and I will solve the gang problem for just thirty cents a round.
We can put Don Brash in charge of Maori affairs but he will have to present all his ideas in public and he won't have the protection of parlimentry privilage.
All murderers,rapists,child molestors,and civil libertarians will be shot the day after conviction.All homos will be sent to live in Sydney where they won't stand out,People keeping dogs that attack kids in the streets will be put down along with their mutts.Drug makers and dealers will also get a .22 behind the ear and non of them will be eligable for legal aid.All overseas investors in NZ land will be put on a boat back to where ever they came from and those not living here will get a polite letter saying "fuck off an die"
A polite letter will be sent to the english royal family saying "up yours and ya' bloody corgis"We will agree to sell Australia to the yanks in return for a few Nuclear war heads an a few weapons of mass destructsion ,After all they have them all now and really should share with their mates.
Oh yeah an we might have to clear it all with local Maori first.
As the head of Ngati whakall I say go for it bro. :bye:

[Lou Girardin]

The Maori didn't invent trench or guerilla warfare, both concepts date back centuries before. And, while it maybe unpalatable for some, people of European origin invented every major advance in civilisation. It didn't just happen.
Lou

[Jackrat]

The Maori didn't invent trench or guerilla warfare, both concepts date back centuries before. And, while it maybe unpalatable for some, people of European origin invented every major advance in civilisation. It didn't just happen.
Lou
They may not of invented either but they used and taught both to the poms.
And since when was The invention of moden machines any form an advance on living in harmony with the environment,And since when was spreading out like a plauge on the land scape,any form of advance to the people who had to pay for it.The unpalatable thing is that they all didn't just stay at home an fuck each other rather than speading their so called civilisation around the world.Civilisation from the people that bought you Nuclear weapons,Gas warfair,Gun powder,Racial supremicy,The destruction of your culture,the enslavment of your people,Religous supression,Small pox,influenza,Drift neting,Deforestasion ect,ect.
Funny thing is that this so called civilisation you talk of is slowly killing the world,See the chanoble thread,thats your civilisation at work.
So lets all give em' a pat on the back an say thanks bro' we really needed that.

[bondagebunny]

give thanks to the white german Damlier for inventing the motorcycles as we know it.

[dangerous]

Arrrrr....crap I should realy stay out of this one but.....BB has a point did you know that in 1968 if you found a Aborigeane (big *sp) in your house you could shoot them dead the law allowed it. So did the Maori ever get it that bad in our life time?

Correct me if I'm wrong but werent the Moriori here before the Maori paddeled over from their islands?

[wari]

What we really need is more of this :grouphug:

less :bs:

and :eyepoke:

and lets not be scared to :cry:

(new smilies ... had to find a way to introduce em) :whistle:

[Jackrat]

Arrrrr....crap I should realy stay out of this one but.....BB has a point did you know that in 1968 if you found a Aborigeane (big *sp) in your house you could shoot them dead the law allowed it. So did the Maori ever get it that bad in our life time?

Correct me if I'm wrong but werent the Morie Horie here before the Maori paddeled over from their islands?
Yeah you are wrong,The Moriori Only lived in the chatthams and never came in contact with Maori until Grays dirty little trick.You may be refering to the Moa hunters and there is also no proof that they came in contact with Maori anyway.And I will say it again just in case you missed it the last half dozen times,Maori have a treaty.And who gives a fuck what happened to a bunch of Abo's.Shit if I find you in my house today I can shoot you dead ,As a few incidents over the last few years proves, The law allows it,Ya only have to get your story right.
And what does compearing Maori with any other group achieve,We have a situation in NZ that has never happend to anybody else,Argueing that one evil is more or less than another is a waste of time at best.
Once again weather you like it or not Maori have a treaty,it's been around for two hundred years,they were eventually going to ask that it be honored,or did you thing the free ride would last forever.

[merv]

I am a little white boy born in Wairoa and all my life never thought of Maoris as being so different. I was used to them and they were used to me. I worked on the railway for 25 years and more than half the staff I worked with were Maori and they were great guys. So what's happening these days is definitely different to when I was growing up.

Now another interesting point - in January I went to Waitangi for the first time in 23 years and my kids hadn't been there because they didn't exist back then. If you believe the blurb at the Treaty House - audio-visual and all that - the Maori of the day actually asked for the Poms that were here to prepare the Treaty through fear of being taken over by some other force (French were mentioned for one) as they wanted protection from the British. I presume Northland Maori had a big input into preparing the stuff they tell you so am I to argue? Point is I guess the problem is what happened after that.

To me though the biggest hit to Maori has been the post 84 Rogernomics and all that stuff - as I say back in my young days all was sweet, but then restructuring started and it decimated the small towns where all my railway mates were - Gisborne, Wairoa and Taumarunui and places like that. Many of those towns had predominantly Maori workforces and all of a sudden they are all on the dole. That has probably been the biggest hit to their economic well-being and is probably why they have been fighting for an existence since. There are so many other restructuring stories that have hit at the heart of Maori employment along with other races.

[Lou Girardin]

Ok. Jackrat, I'll play your game. Penicillin, Sulphur drugs, X Rays, Organ transplants, Basic hygeine, Anaesthetics, DNA research. Terrible things that make life not worth living.
Lou

[Jackrat]

I have never been to Waitangi and don't intend to go there,To many bad vibes.And yes I have heard that one of the many reasons that the treaty came about was the issue of aggression from other world powers.
Also as you point out it has been what happened since that is the issue.
I think the issues of today have come about mainly due to a lack of faith in the current system.I also was raised and went to school during the sixtys,I was not aware of any real difference between the two groups until the 80s when every thing seemed to change over night.
Having both Maori and Pakeha family I don't have any real strong feelings about any of the current issues but I can see both sides and I do hear some pretty silly statements coming from both of them.Take the common beliefs about the Moriori people for instance,I mean who came up with that,some ill informed primary school teacher??.BUT back to the original subject,which was race based privilege
I am still very much against them,but obviously for different reasons than most.Somebody has mentioned that they themselfs are an example of how they are a good thing because he got an education that he did not deserve.He also maintains that it was not because he had brown skin, but rather that he needed a hand up.The fact is he would not of got that hand up if he did not have brown skin.I think a lot of kids from poor back grounds would like a second chance but that second chance is only available to people of one ethnic back ground.And that is wrong.Being Maori is not an excuse to put up a hand an say I am stupid or was lazy at school so how about a privilege that is not available to all.We all have the same chances in this life,being thick,lazy,or Maori should not give us more privilege than anyone else.

[Jackrat]

Ok. Jackrat, I'll play your game. Penicillin, Sulphur drugs, X Rays, Organ transplants, Basic hygeine, Anaesthetics, DNA research. Terrible things that make life not worth living.
Lou
People got on OK for a couple of million years before hand.
And they weren't shitting in their own nests to do it.
You forgot to mention the damage done to the environment to get these wonderfull things,,,In only how long,,,Whats the point in living longer if the world is dieing around you.this European based civilisation has only been around about 150 years,what will the next 150 look like.
And I don't think the destruction of the environment is any type of game.
It's a bloody crime and it can be laid firmly at the feet of this civilisation you talk of.

[Lou Girardin]

Yup, they got on fine. Lived to 30 odd, pregnant at 12-14, often died in childbirth, kids that survived birth often died before they were 5. The poor worked all the hours they were told to or starved. War was a sport for the powerful. And this was only 1 or 2 centuries back.
The good old days alright.
As for conservation, lets not talk about the Moa and Kereru.
Lou

[Motu]

Actualy from some acounts I've read(which could be disputed,as can Jacks references) the Maori weren't doing too good,they were close to starvation,which is why Cook released his own pigs and goats here...they were for his own use,not to give to natives.But being a man clued up in nutrition for his era,he saw the signs of definciencies in their diet,and as far away from home as he could get,released his own breeding animals in the hope they would breed and supply the Maori with food.This land was a hell of a shock after the food rich tropics for the first Maori to land here,none of the food,or very little would grow,just a few small birds and seafood - it was hard yakka to eek a living and after a thousand years were only just hanging on.Flame on!

[Gixxer]

Actualy from some acounts I've read(which could be disputed,as can Jacks references) the Maori weren't doing too good,they were close to starvation,!

Yep, that is correct, the maori would store food for months, and when times got hard alot of the food they ate during the cold seasons would be rotten,

[Jackrat]

Yup, they got on fine. Lived to 30 odd, pregnant at 12-14, often died in childbirth, kids that survived birth often died before they were 5. The poor worked all the hours they were told to or starved. War was a sport for the powerful. And this was only 1 or 2 centuries back.
The good old days alright.
As for conservation, lets not talk about the Moa and Kereru.
Lou
And you still fail to address modern civilisations destruction of the environment.Like where is the beniifit in living longer if the world is slowy dieing because of your efforts.And by the way most of the world still lives under the conditions you mention,they get no benifit from your wonderfull civilisation but have and will continue to pay for it.Have you never read the 7% theory of world balance.Try it but be warned, you might end up with both eyes open.And where the hell do Moa come into it.The Moa died off long before Maori came to NZ,along with the people that killed them off.
Also since Kereru habitat has been destroyed by modern deforestasion I don,t see your point on that at all.
And Motu,this is not a flame or argument,it is a civilised discussion. :yes:
And yeah you are right the Maori were in a constant state of intertribal warfare when cook arrived,the food situation was what lead to their practice of cannibalisim.Natural selection would have solved that problem,And it still has nothing to do with what has happened since the treaty was signed and our own history really begins in NZ.Anything that happened before that is pretty irellivent.

[riffer]

I was always told the Maori killed off the Moa.

What really happened?

[Jackrat]

I was always told the Maori killed off the Moa.

What really happened?
Nobody knows for sure but the latest theorey is that the Moa hunters who were a race that lived in NZ before the Maori arrived killed off the moa.
Because the Moa were their primary food source they followed suit shortly after.The Moa hunters lived mainly in the south island.What is not commonly known is that NZ is belived to of been inhabited by other people of Scandinavian desent before and around the time that Maori first arrived in NZ.
In the Waipoa forest in Northland are the remains of a stone village that contained around 250 small stone buildings of Scandinavian type.The old Nga puhi legends contain constant reference to their having lived under the suferage of a blond haired,blue eyed,fair skined race of people when they first arrived in NZ.Auckland Uni' tryed to get in there a few years ago to investigate the area,but were shut out and had their funding pulled by the govt' at the insistance of the local Maori.Access to the area is now totaly banned and that ban is enforced by DOC.
Remember our whole society is based on the premiss that Maori are the original people of the land.Kind'a makes you wonder aye.

[riffer]

Thanks for that Jackrat.

I've done some searching and there's quite a bit of info around (however a lot conflicting) which should make for some interesting down-time surfing.

Prevailing opinion seems to be that a separate polynesian race arrived around 700AD - 850AD and was assimilated into the maori population at the time of the great migration (1200-).

Can't find anything about scandinavian tribes but I have seen a bit of stuff on the telly. Likewise the spanish helmets and things off Banks Peninsula.

Fascinating stuff...

[Gixxer]

my ancestors are the most persecuted here, for I am Irsh, Scottish and maori.
bondagebunny, I drive a jap car and ride a jap bike. and the English never "Wiped out" any race.
I have never seen a hand out in my life, and I will never see one, some of you have mentioned % and and there are no such things as real maori's etc, when I sat my school C and at the bottom of the 1st page of every exam I was asked my nationality and put NZ european I was told I had to put Maori.
does not matter how much of a maori you are.
I think alot of this is shit, and you hear people say things like I was beaten up by a darkie, it goes both ways you know, 4 yrs ago I had 6 dick heads try and smash me and my mate, and the reason? apparently I was a stupid 'nigga', these rednecks apparently had a problem with me kicking back with my pakeha girl friends,and I will say again "try" lost a tooth, did not lose the fight. the shit that gets flung Jackrat, 750Y and my way is crap.
and as for Zed Are you honestly hoping that these groups (Maori protestors & others) will just accept what the government decides & get back to living a normal life giving to society instead of taking?
I have given more to this society then you or your dead god ever will. untill you have put on a uniform and and been ready to fight for country do not preach to me that crap. and if you have been in the forces, stand up and give me you service number, or shut the hell up. the only thing I care about as much as my family is the men and women I served with. :ar15:
I own land, which I have brought off my own back, and I rent it for a shit load of money, and who is it I rent to? middle NZ pakeha.


[

[Gixxer]

oh yeh and zedm, if u and anyone else don't like I what I say, you can kiss my cheeky darky arse :Punk: :finger:

[Zed]

...and as for Zed Are you honestly hoping that these groups (Maori protestors & others) will just accept what the government decides & get back to living a normal life giving to society instead of taking?
I have given more to this society then you or your dead god ever will. untill you have put on a uniform and and been ready to fight for country do not preach to me that crap. and if you have been in the forces, stand up and give me you service number, or shut the hell up...
It's the activists (Maori protestors) that stir up the people and give the Maoris a bad rep. I am for most of your argument Gixxer, apart from the personal attacks about me & God. I am part Maori myself and grew up with them. My father is very pro Maori and has a Maori partner- what do you know about my life to claim that you have given more to society than I? All spoken in anger I presume.

Take everything personally if you wish, but you will burn out before very long...:brick:

And as far as preaching...I havn't started yet mate!


Zed :innocent:

[Gixxer]

take things personally you say, you mean like your post "You decide whether I stay or leave?"

I don't get angry over things like this Zed, :angry2: I hear this at work all the time, I am proud of my who I am, and I never refer to my people as 'them', my maori or pakeha side.

As for knowing you, all i need to do is read your post.

preach all you want there mate, because after seeing what crimes are done whilst wearing the cloth, your preaching means nothing to me.

[Jackrat]

Hmmm,This is geting a bit out of hand here folks.It always does I suppose.
I Kind'a wish I hadn't started this thread now but what the hell aye.
It's interesting to me because I don't have very brown skin,so I get to hear some pretty nasty shit from people that think I am going to agree with them.
I normaly just let it go until I've heard enough an then I will say something like, that's my mother your talking about mate.I even had a guy that I used to quite like tell me I had to exspect people to be distrustfull of me because I did have brown skin.I didn't think he had even noticed so that came as a bit of a kick in the guts.
Anyway maybe we should all lighten up a bit huh.

[Gixxer]

I think this is an interesting thread there Jackrat.
it really shows how intolerant we are in NZ, both sides (and that sounds bad because we are one country)
like you I have people having a dig at Maori in front of me all the time , and I am brown skinned.
your right, I think 1 or 10 of use have beaten this up a bit.

Zed, have not probs with you or your God. just have a problem with folks using the 'Maori's are lazy, maori' s are greedy, maori's want want want' stereotyping.
anyway take it easy, this cheeky darkie is off home to fix his crashed bike.

Peace.
:Playnice: