Shotguns?

[Lou Girardin]

Three 9mm rounds didn't even slow down the nutter with a knife in Henderson yesterday.
Time for 12 gauges perhaps?

[scumdog]

Three 9mm rounds didn't even slow down the nutter with a knife in Henderson yesterday.
Time for 12 gauges perhaps?


No need for shotguns, they still had 14 rounds to go before the gun ran dry, wonder why they stopped??

Danger with shotguns is if you're too far away and not all the buckshot hits the bad guy (or the solid slug goes through) what/who is in the background to 'wear' the excess lead??

[T.I.E]

sounds like the american shoot first ask..... oh i mean use the patrol car, that would be effective. espically the cars with bars on them.

and if that does not work, use one of those stun gun things they look like fun, atleast a few secounds of enjoyment for the police. shooting is just so last century.

[Youngjim]

They should have fired a warning shot between the eyes !!!:thud:

[scumdog]

sounds like the american shoot first ask..... oh i mean use the patrol car, that would be effective. espically the cars with bars on them.

and if that does not work, use one of those stun gun things they look like fun, atleast a few secounds of enjoyment for the police. shooting is just so last century.

Ah but don't you just love 'last century"?? the bullets seem to work just as well THIS century too!!:2thumbsup


Wonder how we would have seen it if the nutter 'just' had a golf-club in his hands - and had just brained the old guy instead of stabbing him??:blink:

[Sniper]

Depends on what the guy is on. I have seen someone high on 3 types of drugs take 7 shots of .38mm and 2 mags of 9mm before he eventually faltered and didn't get up.

I have also seen a guy go into shock and die from a fucken shrapnel wound in the knee. Depends on whos getting shot and how well you can place a bullet.

[ManDownUnder]

Three 9mm rounds didn't even slow down the nutter with a knife in Henderson yesterday.
Time for 12 gauges perhaps?

ummm... yeah...

There is a chance you'll miss with the 9mm...

There is a guarantee you'll miss with the 12 gauge - at least some of the pellets anyway.

Guns as a last resort - I'd fully support a deer net being shot at the idiot... what about that?

[Sniper]

They should have fired a warning shot between the eyes !!!:thud:

I'll give you a glock and see how well you place a shot when they are coming towards you with a knife.

[T.I.E]

ummm... yeah...

There is a chance you'll miss with the 9mm...

There is a guarantee you'll miss with the 12 gauge - at least some of the pellets anyway.

Guns as a last resort - I'd fully support a deer net being shot at the idiot... what about that?

deer net now thats a good idea. still effective. that would be an interesting site to see, someone being taken down by one of those.

[Skyryder]

Three 9mm rounds didn't even slow down the nutter with a knife in Henderson yesterday.
Time for 12 gauges perhaps?

Or more Parking wardens. :finger:

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411365/633654


Skyryder

[Sniper]

The cops have nearly finished their training with the new semi auto machine guns. If they used one of those that guy woulda been cut in half.

What guns are those? MP5's or is it a pistol version?

[cheetor]

9mm doest realy have the stopping power, especialy if someone is on P or PCP or other shit... You want stopping power, use a .45 with hollow points, not a FMJ 9mm

[RiderInBlack]

Or more Parking wardens. :finger:

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411365/633654


SkyryderOr a good smack with a long battern. Would have knocked the knife out of his hand (and with a bit of luck broken it). Being back the cop helmet. Give them some body armer and teach them how to use the fu*ken battern again. Why the fu*k are they using guns against a fu*ken knife. Bit over the top IMHO. But what the fu*k I wasn't there. Maybe they need AK47's to do the job now.

[Badcat]

9mm doest realy have the stopping power, especialy if someone is on P or PCP or other shit... You want stopping power, use a .45 with hollow points, not a FMJ 9mm


http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/45acp/fed45-230hs-g30.htm

[Sniper]

What badcat said. But imagine the repercussions with the NZ govt. Bloody bills being passed all over the show and then the cops will have to have a paper to sign in triplicate before even being issued those things.

Bring back dum-dums!

[Colapop]

No guns? The guy had killed one guy and severely injured another. If he was high on whatever then how do you stop him? I'd wager he'd not have let his knife gp if he were netted. Flailing around with a knife? Hmmm not good. Whatever means used to stop and/or control a subject there are going to be de3tractors and supporters. Be thankful in this case he was stopped. Lunchtime, lots of people out, nutcase with a knife, could have been a lot worse.

[El Dopa]

They still had 14 rounds to go before the gun ran dry, wonder why they stopped??

When I heard about this, I thought it sounded a bit odd.

The way I read the article in the Herald, the cops gave a warning, he kept coming, then they fired.

So far, so good.

Then, he kept coming, and was tackled by the passing member of the public/hero.

It struck me that maybe the reason the cops didn't keep shooting until he fell over is because the have-a-go hero was blocking their shot.

Don't get me wrong, the guys got some balls making the tackle, but if I were in that situation, I'd have preferred to stay out of the way and let the cops keep shooting.

Just the way I read it, I could be completely wrong.

[Swoop]

9mm is crap. Plain and simple. Why do you think the FBI went to 10mm?
If they had any sense at all the'd go back to .45ACP - like the US are planning to do with the special forces...

Next point. WHY were there 3 armed cops conveniently in Henderson?
If this nutter walked into the shop and started this, then the cops would not have enough time to get to that location so quickly (yes, I know the cop shop is just up the road, but they cannot access firearms that quickly) also coupled with the fact there was an absence of body armour - I suspect we had some armed cops wandering around...

Next point. If we have armed cops wandering around, then this means it is now too dangerous for them - which also means it is too dangerous for the average person in the street, proof has come from this incident with the death of the innocent bystander.

Annie, get 'yer gun!

[SPORK]

The cops have nearly finished their training with the new semi auto machine guns. If they used one of those that guy woulda been cut in half.
Semi-auto = cut in half?

Not exactly...

Semi = Pull trigger, BANG, pull trigger, BANG, and so on and so forth...

[Sniper]

I believe Seargents are allowed to carry pistols in the boot of their patrol. I could be wrong though.

[TraD_MaN]

where did the 3 bullets hit him thoe ? no matter wot cal. of gun 3 bullets is alot to take...

[Swoop]

Semi-auto = cut in half?

Not exactly...

Semi = Pull trigger, BANG, pull trigger, BANG, and so on and so forth...

I'm impressed with the avatar display OMGWTFBBQ!!!

[Sniper]

where did the 3 bullets hit him thoe ? no matter wot cal. of gun 3 bullets is alot to take...

It may be, but 9mm is fuck all.

[scumdog]

9mm doest realy have the stopping power, especialy if someone is on P or PCP or other shit... You want stopping power, use a .45 with hollow points, not a FMJ 9mm

We don't use FMJ sunshine!!:doh:

[Timber020]

9mm is generally a great round, works perfectly when put in the right place. The shotgun bean bags work well at disarming people

[scumdog]

Or a good smack with a long battern. Would have knocked the knife out of his hand (and with a bit of luck broken it). Being back the cop helmet. Give them some body armer and teach them how to use the fu*ken battern again. Why the fu*k are they using guns against a fu*ken knife. Bit over the top IMHO. But what the fu*k I wasn't there. Maybe they need AK47's to do the job now.

Eff the long baton - you have to get too near to him and if things go wrong? (like he chases and stabs somebody else while you're trying to get in with the baton?)

Guns?:2thumbsup

Only a loser brings a knife to a gun fight!!

[scumdog]

9mm is generally a great round, works perfectly when put in the right place. The shotgun bean bags work well at disarming people

Cops aren't allowed to shoot to kill. Otherwise a 9mm carbine would do the trick - easier to hit the head/neck.

[thehollowmen]

It may be, but 9mm is fuck all.

it isn't that bad... could have been a .22 peashooter

Anyways I think we are following a trend from europe. 9mm browning pistol ammo is popular because it is the same stuff that the mp5 and mp5k takes ain't it? One ammo to rule them all.

I know the mp5 is a common gun to see in the hands of the cops / C14 in northern ireland and I've also seen a few at hethro...

Anyways it isn't the bullet size that's the killer. E=(half)MV^2 .. double the velocity you quadruple the energy the bullet has. I hear really great reviews about a .257*7mm bullet that goes at 4,060 feet per second. That's 1237 m/s for us metric types. THAT is stopping power for you.

[scumdog]

it isn't that bad... could have been a .22 peashooter

Anyways I think we are following a trend from europe. 9mm browning pistol ammo is popular because it is the same stuff that the mp5 and mp5k takes ain't it? One ammo to rule them all.

I know the mp5 is a common gun to see in the hands of the cops / C14 in northern ireland and I've also seen a few at hethro...

Anyways it isn't the bullet size that's the killer. E=(half)MV^2 .. double the velocity you quadruple the energy the bullet has. I hear really great reviews about a .257*7mm bullet that goes at 4,060 feet per second. That's 1237 m/s for us metric types. THAT is stopping power for you.

Used a .40cal MP5, great on three-shot burst mode but a bit of a handful on full auto. Still, bloody comforting to know that it's launching a big fat slug though!

And yeah 4000+fps in 257 is going to hurt!!

Still prefer a fat slug well aimed. (Maybe that's why I ride a Harley!!):lol:

[T.W.R]

its a 9mm wad cutter projectile in those rounds isn't it ?
the cops fired 5 shots only 3 hit & it took a big samoan to flatten the prick! at that range the projectile would still have been building up impact velocity.
FMJ isn't any good on soft tissue close up, just goes straight through. you need wad cutters (small hole in bloody big hole out)

bring in riot guns with buck shot! that will stop the psycho dicks! the bastards have more rights than the victims! the bloody nancy do gooders made sure of that

[thehollowmen]

9mm is generally a great round, works perfectly when put in the right place. The shotgun bean bags work well at disarming people

bwhahahahahahahahahhahahahha
You've been watching what movie?

Sure they hurt like hell but I saw a live demo where a guy raised and fire a pistol under a barrage of them. It was a 'does this work' type demo and no, a lot of things don't work when people are pumped up with endorphins / epinephrine and / or drugs.

In situations like this, the policeman has to look out for number one. You would too if you were in similar shoes and he was coming through the window at night armed... you'd shoot to kill, not leave any chance to get hurt back.

[scumdog]

What guns are those? MP5's or is it a pistol version?

A Bushmaster, looks like the para-troop version of the M16, it's semi auto only though.

[ZorsT]

you'd shoot to kill, not leave any chance to get hurt back.
So why is 9mm not enough?

a well placed .22 shot would drop the bastard pretty quick.

[scumdog]

its a 9mm wad cutter projectile in those rounds isn't it ?
the cops fired 5 shots only 3 hit & it took a big samoan to flatten the prick! at that range the projectile would still have been building up impact velocity.
FMJ isn't any good on soft tissue close up, just goes straight through. you need wad cutters (small hole in bloody big hole out)

bring in riot guns with buck shot! that will stop the psycho dicks! the bastards have more rights than the victims! the bloody nancy do gooders made sure of that

The bullets ain't wad-cutters, they're normally only used for target shooting,, the bullets used are Hydra-shok hollow-points.

'Building up impact velocity'?????????? The projectile has already done that as it exits the barrel - it's all slow-down after that!!!

[scumdog]

So why is 9mm not enough?

a well placed .22 shot would drop the bastard pretty quick.

"Well placed" is the crucial thing - imagine you have run to the car, run to the scene, been yelling at the offender, he's moving/changing direction of travel, you've not fired a shot for months etc ect - NOW do 'well placed'!!

[ZorsT]

"Well placed" is the crucial thing - imagine you have run to the car, run to the scene, been yelling at the offender, he's moving/changing direction of travel, you've not fired a shot for months etc ect - NOW do 'well placed'!!
Thats a good point. Isn't that the whole idea of semi auto?

I'm not too sure about pistol use either. I've used a 9mm baretta in a firing range in Canada, and they are really hard to aim. They are, however, eaiser to carry around.

If the officers had been using rifiles would they have needed to fire 5 shots?

[scumdog]

Thats a good point. Isn't that the whole idea of semi auto?

I'm not too sure about pistol use either. I've used a 9mm baretta in a firing range in Canada, and they are really hard to aim. They are, however, eaiser to carry around.

If the officers had been using rifiles would they have needed to fire 5 shots?

Ya still have to think of where the 'extra' bullets go even if you don't hit the target - more of a problem with a semi-auto.

If the rifle (223) had been used then a good chance less shots would have been needed.

[thehollowmen]

So why is 9mm not enough?

a well placed .22 shot would drop the bastard pretty quick.

sure thing.. .22 would work but I don't wanna be the one stood up over a row of bodies and told "that wasn't placed well enough"

I'm just surprised they stopped at five.

a 9mm (browning) pistol round is a slowish, reasonably light slug. Sure it has disadvantages BUT the reason it is in service here is because we've followed Europe who adopted it because of the versitility between weapons.

But the upside of the 9mm for police use is it isn't a "hard kill" bullet. It won't penetrate walls very well like a larger or faster slug, it jackets and tumbles and slows considerably if you shoot it through a windscreen... That's good for police who protect the public, bad for military who don't care in the heat of battle.

Why we don't have the extra weapons that use 9mm I'm not too sure :-P

[T.W.R]

'Building up impact velocity'?????????? The projectile has already done that as it exits the barrel - it's all slow-down after that!!!

the projectile speed is slowing down once it leaves the barrel sure! but the actual hitting power is still building for quite a wee ways after it leaves the barrel e.g .303 rifle = it effective kill zone is 80m - 150m with a 180grain S.P projectile where as at 10m-20m it will go straight through without doing much damage. shooting a few deer proved that in action

one good shot to the knee would have fixed the prick

[ZorsT]

Ya still have to think of where the 'extra' bullets go even if you don't hit the target - more of a problem with a semi-auto.

If the rifle (223) had been used then a good chance less shots would have been needed.
Is that because the bullets may have been traveling faster?

Or is it because the shots may have been better placed?

[thehollowmen]

the projectile speed is slowing down once it leaves the barrel sure! but the actual hitting power is still building for quite a wee ways after it leaves the barrel e.g .303 rifle = it effective kill zone is 80m - 150m with a 180grain S.P projectile where as at 10m-20m it will go straight through without doing much damage. shooting a few deer proved that in action

That ain't building up velocity. That's traveling so fast it doesn't do the damage intended. Slicing neatly through without mushrooming or jacketing or any of those fancy flesh-shredding things

That is a hard kill bullet, would likely penetrate people / walls / more people ...
Ever heard about the hard kill bullets used on the bloody friday demonstrators?

[scumdog]

the projectile speed is slowing down once it leaves the barrel sure! but the actual hitting power is still building for quite a wee ways after it leaves the barrel e.g .303 rifle = it effective kill zone is 80m - 150m with a 180grain S.P projectile where as at 10m-20m it will go straight through without doing much damage. shooting a few deer proved that in action

Hmmm, I guess it's a moot point what it's called but I refer to it as 'projectile performance' instead of 'hitting power' - put a 130grn hollow-point in your 303 and then try it at 10 metres.

[scumdog]

Is that because the bullets may have been traveling faster?

Or is it because the shots may have been better placed?

Faster but lighter bullet with more violent expansion.

Of course better placement helps too!

[T.W.R]

Hmmm, I guess it's a moot point what it's called but I refer to it as 'projectile performance' instead of 'hitting power' - put a 130grn hollow-point in your 303 and then try it at 10 metres.

been there done that with 140grn sierra S.Ps & the lighter grain is actually for longer range shooting mmm!

[scumdog]

been there done that with 140grn sierra S.Ps & the lighter grain is actually for longer range shooting mmm!

In my example you'll find that all things being equal the lighter bullet expands more readily in the same type of target.

[T.W.R]

In my example you'll find that all things being equal the lighter bullet expands more readily in the same type of target.

yeah true but in some instances a light grain bullet actually will totally disintergrate also. eg .22 250 or .17 hornet best long range calibre for rabbits & hares but a stick will totally fuck the projectile, even a blade of grass will screw it.

close range shooting its better to use heavier grain projectiles for stopping power, again with .303 as example for ( no pun intended) pig shooting its best to go to 190-210grn projectile or better still shotgun solid ( pig slug ).

anyhow you guys should be allowed to shoot to kill!, my mate works in Forensics & was at papatoetoe for 3yrs & there was an underlying revolt against the way the courts deal with things & the rights the criminals have. half the cops are sick of it

[scumdog]

yeah true but in some instances a light grain bullet actually will totally disintergrate also. eg .22 250 or .17 hornet best long range calibre for rabbits & hares but a stick will totally fuck the projectile, even a blade of grass will screw it.

close range shooting its better to use heavier grain projectiles for stopping power, again with .303 as example for ( no pun intended) pig shooting its best to go to 190-210grn projectile or better still shotgun solid ( pig slug ).

anyhow you guys should be allowed to shoot to kill!, my mate works in Forensics & was at papatoetoe for 3yrs & there was an underlying revolt against the way the courts deal with things & the rights the criminals have. half the cops are sick of it

But if we were allowed to 'shoot to kill' we would be MURDERERS!! Go figure!!:blink:

Yeah, use to mainly use 180gn in my 308 - then C.A.C. went out of business now I handload 165gn in a fairly hot load, does the job.

[T.W.R]

But if we were allowed to 'shoot to kill' we would be MURDERERS!! Go figure!!:blink:

Yeah, use to mainly use 180gn in my 308 - then C.A.C. went out of business now I handload 165gn in a fairly hot load, does the job.

nah you'd be doing the public a service getting rid of half the bastards instead of them getting holiday camp treatment in the jails & costing the tax payer thousands each year!:yes:

yeah my 140grn sieeras were loaded with 40gr AR2206 could put a 50c grouping at 150m with the leupold 9x

[scumdog]

nah you'd be doing the public a service getting rid of half the bastards instead of them getting holiday camp treatment in the jails & costing the tax payer thousands each year!:yes:

yeah my 140grn sieeras were loaded with 40gr AR2206 could put a 50c grouping at 150m with the leupold 9x

Wasn't there a post on "why you joined Kb" (or similar title) thread where somebody posted "because there's no gun thread?":blink:

I think I last used about 44.5grn of same powder with my 165gn Lapua projectiles, about 50c (on a good day) at 100 yards with Bushnell 2.75X

[spudchucka]

What guns are those? MP5's or is it a pistol version?
Bushmaster rifles, a variation of the M4.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/azc-c15rm4ft.asp

[spudchucka]

Three 9mm rounds didn't even slow down the nutter with a knife in Henderson yesterday.
Time for 12 gauges perhaps?
.223 would have done the job. There have been many cases documented where a 9mm hand gun has been almost completely ineffective against a highly motivated or enrgaged nut case. I don't think shotguns offer anything more than the current weapons in use.

[spudchucka]

Why the fu*k are they using guns against a fu*ken knife.
They didn't use a gun against a knife. They used a gun to stop a person armed with a knife, (who had just killed somebody with that knife), from harming anybody else.

[spudchucka]

Thats a good point. Isn't that the whole idea of semi auto?Fill the air with lead and let god sort it out?

[spudchucka]

one good shot to the knee would have fixed the prick
Yeah but Billy The Kid doesn't work for the police.

[Stevo]

Yeah but Billy The Kid doesn't work for the police.
Also TWR has possibly never attempted shooting the knee of a knife wielding highly charged person. (Hopefully). From my experiences it cannot be that easy

[Stevo]

yeah true but in some instances a light grain bullet actually will totally disintergrate also. eg .22 250 or .17 hornet best long range calibre for rabbits & hares but a stick will totally fuck the projectile, even a blade of grass will screw it.

close range shooting its better to use heavier grain projectiles for stopping power, again with .303 as example for ( no pun intended) pig shooting its best to go to 190-210grn projectile or better still shotgun solid ( pig slug ).

anyhow you guys should be allowed to shoot to kill!, my mate works in Forensics & was at papatoetoe for 3yrs & there was an underlying revolt against the way the courts deal with things & the rights the criminals have. half the cops are sick of it
Not quite comparing apples with apples here I feel. Bullet shapes weights and velocities are all factors.
In the 308 I need More powder to punch the Lapua 155 boat tail out at the same velocity as the 155 Sierra.

When testing and chronographing my loads, the chronograph is not more than 10 yards in front of the rifle. The 155gr projectile is doing just under 3000 ft/sec. Not sure how you think it might accelerate after leaving the barrel?? Penetration is NOT an issue as I am a long range target shooter, so am more interested in finding loads that give the most consistent, readings and groups.

[jrandom]

I don't think shotguns offer anything more than the current weapons in use.

Well, they offer a fuckload more muzzle energy, I mean, 12-gauge slug, come on!

Obviously the problems with overpenetration thereof, and spread of shot if you're not using slugs, rule it out. Never heard of cops using shotguns and lead loads for any mixed hostile and Innocent Bystander (tm) situation.

But fuck me if I'd choose anything over a 12-gauge and 00 buck for the old home defense situation.

By the way, all the people sniffing at the pathetic muzzle energy of a 9mm NATO round? I hear your frustration. Tell ya what, I'll shoot you with one, and then you can tell everyone how much it totally didn't hurt.

.45GAP sounded promising, haven't been reading the gunrags much last year or so, but anyone heard whether the Murkn cops have taken it up at all?

See, problem with .45ACP is fat-arse cartridge size, of course, and consequent limitation of mag loadout. Any cartridge designed pre-World War I is going to suffer from the overengineering engendered by being sized for the tolerance of the case metal available from the metallurgy of a hundred years ago, which is why the Glock 17 comes in 9 mil but not .45ACP, last time I looked.

And what was with the bystanders saying that the cop was shooting at the Henderson knife-wielder's leg? WTF? What happened to aiming for center mass?

[thehollowmen]

linky for people

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

I love this
I so wanna do this

[Stevo]

linky for people

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

I love this
I so wanna do this
Cool site. Sure I could help blow stuff up and fire off lots of rounds all in the name of research

[RiderInBlack]

They didn't use a gun against a knife. They used a gun to stop a person armed with a knife, (who had just killed somebody with that knife), from harming anybody else.Then maybe a tazer would have been better, cause a psychotic or drug hyped person doesn't slow well with bullets unless you shot to kill. If guns were the answer we would arm Nurses with guns that are dealing with Psychotic patients. If the perp had a gun or bow, then sure, shot the fu*ker. But I don't buy that Police need to use a gun against a knife. They didn't used to. The knife welder has not change much.

Don't turn NZ into the US:finger:

[thehollowmen]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=#4169e1]Then maybe a tazer would have been better

Maybe.
Hindsite is 20 / 20

I can see a big public objection to police carrying both pistols and tasers. And ranged tasers are one shot aren't they? (at least the ones I played with were but that was years back)

[Sniper]

yeah my 140grn sieeras were loaded with 40gr AR2206 could put a 50c grouping at 150m with the leupold 9x

Good shooting.

[Sniper]

A Bushmaster, looks like the para-troop version of the M16, it's semi auto only though.

Yep I know them well. Thanks. :niceone:

[Lou Girardin]

No need for shotguns, they still had 14 rounds to go before the gun ran dry, wonder why they stopped??

Danger with shotguns is if you're too far away and not all the buckshot hits the bad guy (or the solid slug goes through) what/who is in the background to 'wear' the excess lead??

The same people who might have worn the 2 stray 9mm's?

[Sniper]

Then maybe a tazer would have been better, cause a psychotic or drug hyped person doesn't slow well with bullets unless you shot to kill. If guns were the answer we would arm Nurses with guns that are dealing with Psychotic patients. If the perp had a gun or bow, then sure, shot the fu*ker. But I don't buy that Police need to use a gun against a knife. They didn't used to. The knife welder has not change much.

Don't turn NZ into the US:finger:

I can see where you are coming from RIB, but this is just the attitude that is causing NZ to be such a bloody pacifist country as well as trying to sterilise us to whats really happening.

The guy just killed someone with a knife and then the cops still had to fuck around trying to get close enough to taser the fucker. Just shoot him before he causes even more harm to others and then slag the cops for not acting quick enough.

Like I said, I see where you are coming from, but in my veiwpoint, a guy high on drugs weilding a knife will just end up more pissed when you taser him than if you shot him.

[Sniper]

The same people who might have worn the 2 stray 9mm's?

Less chance of 2 stray 9mm hitting someone than 50 pellets. I know what you mean though, there still is that chance

[Lou Girardin]

Less chance of 2 stray 9mm hitting someone than 50 pellets. I know what you mean though, there still is that chance

9 in 00 buck?

BTW those advocating .45ACP obviously haven't fired it. You'd be lucky to get 1 round on target with an M1911A1 let alone more. Especially with the amount of training our cops get.
And .223 rounds at the range of this incident would have increased the body count considerably.
Why do US cops and some military forces (Vietnam, Malaya) use shotguns in close quarter work?

[Sniper]

9 in 00 buck?
Shows how much I know about shotguns



BTW those advocating .45ACP obviously haven't fired it. You'd be lucky to get 1 round on target with an M1911A1 let alone more. Especially with the amount of training our cops get.
And .223 rounds at the range of this incident would have increased the body count considerably.
Why do US cops and some military forces (Vietnam, Malaya) use shotguns in close quarter work?

Exactly, our cops don't get alot of training, but at 40m I could still happily put 10 shots of .45ACP into a box 30cm by 30cm. Big box I know but like you said, .45 is a fucken horrible, unreliable bullet (Well I found it to be) but it would fucken stop a buffalo if you wanted it to. The thing is, if they trained our cops better and stopped fucking around with suspending cops for doing their job, it might actually work and there would be less risk when the cops start carrying Bushmasters.

The reason US cops and Vietnamese use bloody shotguns is cause they couldn't hit the broad side of a fucken barn with a 9mm or .45 or .38. You need to be in the bloody Seals before they teach you how to aim and that you don't need to expend an entire magazine in an attempt to hit your target

[spudchucka]

And what was with the bystanders saying that the cop was shooting at the Henderson knife-wielder's leg? WTF? What happened to aiming for center mass?
Well if that is true then it is obvious why it took three shots and a tackle to drop him. There is a problem in that some cops might be to scared of the consequences to aim for center mass as they should. I mean to say, who wants to put them selves through what Keith Abbott went through. Shooting at legs is bloody irresponsible use of the weapon as it increases risk to bystanders and to the cop. The weapons we have are effective but the cops need to know that they have the backing of their organisation, the public and the courts to use them as required.

The hydra-shock ammunition used is a very effective 9mm round but my preference is to take a long arm and the 223 hollow point round will do the job, no problems.

I think that a pump action shotty adds "Fuck off" value to an incident in that the sound of the pump action is instantly recognisable and grabs the attention of anybody close at hand. I don't know how appropriate the use of solid rounds would be though. Can you imagine the media response to images of an offender with their entire chest cavity having been removed?

[Swoop]

See, problem with .45ACP is fat-arse cartridge size, of course, and consequent limitation of mag loadout. Any cartridge designed pre-World War I is going to suffer from the overengineering engendered by being sized for the tolerance of the case metal available from the metallurgy of a hundred years ago, which is why the Glock 17 comes in 9 mil but not .45ACP, last time I looked.

Bullshit! Glocks come in .45ACP. Do your homework. (Poxy tupperware guns anyway).


And what was with the bystanders saying that the cop was shooting at the Henderson knife-wielder's leg? WTF? What happened to aiming for center mass?

They probably were, but being totally useless with firearms they will have snatched the shots and pulled them downwards.
If ever a street cop points a gun at you DO NOT MOVE. There will be sod all chance of being hit! e.g. the Paul Stowers case in Newmarket some years back...

[jrandom]

why the Glock 17 comes in 9 mil but not .45ACP...Bullshit! Glocks come in .45ACP. Do your homework.

Not the model 17, you asinine twat. The 21, and with a 13-round mag only.

Now stop embarrassing yourself.


There is a problem in that some cops might be to scared of the consequences to aim for center mass as they should.

That's a worry. The real travesty here, which the media will undoubtedly ignore, is that it took a parking warden jumping on the guy and getting cut up to stop him, when there were armed cops present and shooting.

What if the parking warden had taken one in the throat?

Would the popular outcry then have been directed against the officers for not shooting straighter?

[spudchucka]

Then maybe a tazer would have been better, cause a psychotic or drug hyped person doesn't slow well with bullets unless you shot to kill. If guns were the answer we would arm Nurses with guns that are dealing with Psychotic patients. If the perp had a gun or bow, then sure, shot the fu*ker. But I don't buy that Police need to use a gun against a knife. They didn't used to. The knife welder has not change much.

Don't turn NZ into the US:finger:
Cheers for the finger.

A tazer would have been a good option but we don't have them here at the moment and no doubt you will be aware of all the hype and controversy regarding that weapon.

Regardless of what you think cops should or shouldn't do, they are not employed to get cut up or killed by nutters armed with a knife. To use any tactical option that brought the cop within five metres of the offender would be foolish.

O/C spray has a maximum range of three metres, which is reduced considerably in windy conditions. There is also the risk of cross contamination to police, which will render them more vulnerable. About 20% of the population is immune to the effects of O/C spray, you never know if the person facing you is one of that group or not. Nutters are notorious for simply ignoring the effects of spray and just carrying on doing what they were doing.

To use a baton means that the cop has to close to well within striking distance of the offender. I have seen highly motivated offenders just smile back at you while you are battoning the shit out of them. Again, nutters are notorious at just ignoring the pain and carrying on. Then they will simply stick their knife in your guts.

I'm sorry if you think NZ is turning into the USA but there is no way I'm going to make my wife a widow and a solo mother because of some nut-bar mudering shit head. The firearm was the only option available to the cop involved in this incident.

[Colapop]

We have a problem in this country at the moment and that is - The crime types are getting worse. The scum are getting used to using weapons even for minor crimes. A burgler is more likely to carry a knife now than a burgler of 20 years ago. That goes to more violent and dangerous criminals having more inclination to be prepared to use weapons to achieve their goals. Added to this scenario are drugged up desperados (sorry for that word) who are truly desperate to feed their habit and will do anything to an extreme degree to satify their perceived needs.
We (generalising - the public) do not want our homes and families to be affected by these scumbags so rightfully call on the police to deal with them. If the offender gets hurt in some way during the course if the police doing their job the sympathy from the wider public (not involved) has a tendancy to go to the criminal. ie. "The police are too heavy handed/draconian etc." We do not want our communties to turn into war zones with thugs carrying guns camped at every corner. Neither do we want the police to out number civilians and be camped at every corner. The use of guns for problem resolution is something we fear (as a general populous) due to it's proven history of escalating problems.
Shotguns or sidearms or tasers, there is no easy answer. One solution perhaps is to look at the issues as an overall problem. Target criminals and ensure that those who have a predispositon to commit crime are dealt with to ensure they either will not or cannot continue to commit further crime.



My speach endeth here.

[spudchucka]

Why do US cops and some military forces (Vietnam, Malaya) use shotguns in close quarter work?
I wouldn't argue against the effectiveness of the shotgun for close quarter action, absolutely a good option. The cops have just introduced the Bushmaster to replace the old bolt action Remmington model 7's. The new weapon is semi auto and the mag holds about five times as many rounds. The model 7's would often get left behind because they weren't as user friendly as a semi auto pistol, (and they aren't as cool). Hopefuly the new rifle will get taken to jobs more often then the model 7's did. I have very little doubt that the Bushmaster or model 7 would have been effective on this offender.

[Swoop]

Exactly, our cops don't get alot of training,

This is the MAIN point!!! Any cop who has access to use a firearm MUST get the training required. None of this 1 day re-qualifying to still be able to use one. A minimum of IPSC shooting every month would be a good start.
What do you think the cop who fired a round while in central's holding cells was doing??? "re-qualifying" handling skills (obviously failed).

.
45 is a fucken horrible, unreliable bullet (Well I found it to be) but it would fucken stop a buffalo if you wanted it to.

BOLLOX!!! I have fired literally thousands of .45 rounds without ANY problems. The Smith & Wesson .45s are crap and misfeed/fire though. Your firearm needs to see a good gunsmith!
The stopping power of the .45 is unquestionable. This is where the 9mm is letting things down. The old maxim that "it's weight - NOT velocity" still holds true with pistol ammo. A bigger projectile travelling slower will do the business.
This is why you have to use a hollowpoint round to get a 9mm to do anything.

I have witnessed a shooter firing 9mm at a falling steel plate and it not even hinting at falling over. Another shooter steps up with a .45 and bang, down she went!


The reason US cops and Vietnamese use bloody shotguns is cause they couldn't hit the broad side of a fucken barn with a 9mm or .45 or .38. You need to be in the bloody Seals before they teach you how to aim and that you don't need to expend an entire magazine in an attempt to hit your target

Exactly!!

[spudchucka]

The thing is, if they trained our cops better and stopped fucking around with suspending cops for doing their job, it might actually work and there would be less risk when the cops start carrying Bushmasters.
They have recently changed the firearms re-certification shoot from annually to six monthly. So at least now we get to go to the range twice a year.

[Swoop]

BTW those advocating .45ACP obviously haven't fired it. You'd be lucky to get 1 round on target with an M1911A1 let alone more.


Bollocks mate. It's the nut behind the trigger that does the work. Crap training = crap shooting = crap results.
The .45 is an amazing round, why do you think the US special forces are going back to it??????????

I advocate .45ACP because after thousands of rounds firing them I KNOW they are bloody accurate and reliable! - and at any distance out to 75yards.

My 5 cents +gst worth.

[Lias]

If the perp had a gun or bow, then sure, shot the fu*ker. But I don't buy that Police need to use a gun against a knife. They didn't used to. The knife welder has not change much.
I very nearly gave you red bling over this, but I decided that mearly talking our your arse doesnt warrant it.. But I definitly take issue with this.

I've had more than my fair share of runins with cops, and they arnt my favourite people but even I accept that its a coppers JOB to escalate force to contain the situation You are unarmed and a threat? they will taser/mace you. You are armed, they will shoot you. Its pretty simple really.

I challenge you to stand there, with some drugged up psycho running towards you with a knife in his hand, having stabbed 3 people and killed one already, and not want to put a bullet between the cunts eyes.

The fact they shot him 3 times using the "dont shoot to kill" policy and he still kept coming to my mind just reinforces that fact that its a bollocks policy and they really should be shooting to kill if their is a clear and present threat.

[ManDownUnder]

'Building up impact velocity'?????????? The projectile has already done that as it exits the barrel - it's all slow-down after that!!!

bugger - I thought it was that kids story where the little tow truck/train (something like that) keeps saying "I know I can I KNOW I can" - getting faster and faster as he goes.

And you go bringing ballistics and drag coefficients into it... sheesh. Common sense ruins a good story every time

[Swoop]

They have recently changed the firearms re-certification shoot from annually to six monthly. So at least now we get to go to the range twice a year.

So you now waste 2 days time?

You need to use them monthly if not weekly. I bet that AOS have daily training!

[Sniper]

BOLLOX!!! I have fired literally thousands of .45 rounds without ANY problems. The Smith & Wesson .45s are crap and misfeed/fire though. Your firearm needs to see a good gunsmith!
The stopping power of the .45 is unquestionable. This is where the 9mm is letting things down. The old maxim that "it's weight - NOT velocity" still holds true with pistol ammo. A bigger projectile travelling slower will do the business.
This is why you have to use a hollowpoint round to get a 9mm to do anything.


As I said, I have had problems with the .45. I don't like it. In my honest opinion and given the choise, I wouldn't carry it. I like 9mm, only because I have had less stoppages and other problems using it, but I really like the .357 but unfortunatly, its not as readily availible as 9mm.

[Sniper]

They have recently changed the firearms re-certification shoot from annually to six monthly. So at least now we get to go to the range twice a year.

Better than anually, but still not enough. But in all honesty, what do the cops think about firearms qualifications on the range. Not enough, too little?

[Swoop]

As I said, I have had problems with the .45. I don't like it. In my honest opinion and given the choise, I wouldn't carry it. I like 9mm, only because I have had less stoppages and other problems using it, but I really like the .357 but unfortunatly, its not as readily availible as 9mm.


Hmmm, .357 isn't bad! It's shorter brother the .38 is not any good for anything other than hitting paper targets with.

Read "Wings of the Eagle" by William T Grant. Vietnam huey pilot who wouldn't fly with his issued one. His dad was a NYC cop who had experience with them and disliked them immensely.
WT thought they would only be good for shooting out the hueys radios if he god shot down!:lol:

[Sniper]

IThe fact they shot him 3 times using the "dont shoot to kill" policy and he still kept coming to my mind just reinforces that fact that its a bollocks policy and they really should be shooting to kill if their is a clear and present threat.

I understand alot about the public thinking about this "shoot to kill" policy. There may be such a policy used elsewhere in the world, but if you had to enforce it, imagine the variables you would have to contend with.
Is the guy shooting back at you, is he 3 feet away and running, does he look like and in reality constitute a threat and you know you are in danger but there are others around?

1. Its flippin hard to hit someone in the head whois running at/away from you and generally, you need to be pretty proficient with a sidearm to hit a target that small, no matter how far away they are. And unfortunatly, that takes thousands of rounds and training to acheive

2. The general rule is only shoot at what you are most likely to hit. The old "Aim small, miss small" theory. You are 5 times more likely to hit someone in the torso with a shot than if you aimed for the head. People watch too many movies when they see that someone can just aim and hit you in the head

3. To kill someone with a torso shot, you have to hit the heart or fire a bucketload of bullets which in turn means the firer gets all these questions thrown at him on my he had to fire 5 bullets when 1 "in theory" should do.

Good on the cops for acting and shooting at the guy. Bad luck he isn't dead. It would be good to remove someone like that from our society.

[Sniper]

Read "Wings of the Eagle" by William T Grant. Vietnam huey pilot who wouldn't fly with his issued one. His dad was a NYC cop who had experience with them and disliked them immensely.


That was a good book. I have it at home.

[spudchucka]

So you now waste 2 days time?

You need to use them monthly if not weekly. I bet that AOS have daily training!
I agree. Monthly would be ideal but it won't happen because the department squirms at having to pay for the ammo we use in training days now. Personally I'd be happy to purchase my own box of ammo once a month and head out to the range for a little "group therapy". I believe the AOS training days occur monthly.

[spudchucka]

Better than anually, but still not enough. But in all honesty, what do the cops think about firearms qualifications on the range. Not enough, too little?
Most that I have spoken to on this issue would like to go to the range at least monthly. On night shift, (we do a week of nights once every five weeks), I usually spend a few hours stripping the weapon for familiarisation and practising basic handling drills.

[Sniper]

Most that I have spoken to on this issue would like to go to the range at least monthly. On night shift, (we do a week of nights once every five weeks), I usually spend a few hours stripping the weapon for familiarisation and practising basic handling drills.

Thats a good idea to learn your weapon.

[T.W.R]

When testing and chronographing my loads, the chronograph is not more than 10 yards in front of the rifle. The 155gr projectile is doing just under 3000 ft/sec. Not sure how you think it might accelerate after leaving the barrel?? Penetration is NOT an issue as I am a long range target shooter, so am more interested in finding loads that give the most consistent, readings and groups.

theres a huge difference between shooting in a controlled enviroment like a shooting range compared to shooting in the hunting enviroment of out in the bush & high country. at the range your target is set in place it isn't moving & the only thing you have to worry about at distance is windage & elevation. when your in the bush you often only have the chance of one effective kill shot & sometimes that shot may be the only one you'll fire for days, it has to be precise & efficent.

and as for saying the projectile accelerates after leaving the barrel ? who said that ? the impact damage isn't effective at close range & the only thing the projectile is increasing in is elevation when it leaves the barrel ( remember a projectile travels in an arc)

as for long range shooting, you should try chasing Thar & Chamios. and accuracy at distance has more to do with knowing your weapon & the rifling of the barrel. thats why target rifles have heavy gauge barrels with micro groove rifling ( the faster a projectile is spinning, the more accurate at distance it will be).

[tracyprier]

Indeed matey :) Diligentia Vis Celeritas!

It's not only the amount of firearms training (woefully little I believe) but also the TYPE of training. (unless things have changed with Police firearms training)

Traditional "standing still, firing at static targets in your own time" in no way prepares someone for what Masaad Ayoob termed, "stress-fire". Shooting at some drug-addled nutter bearing down on you with ANY sort of weapon.

And can we please dispense with this "shoot him in the leg/arm" nonsense. That is fit for the realm of bad cop movies only, NOT real life.

As for the effectiveness of the 9mm, I believe many Police departments in the USA have/are switching from 9mm to .40 S&W as it has greater knockdown capability with a higher mag capacity than the venerable .45acp.


[QUOTE=Swoop]This is the MAIN point!!! Any cop who has access to use a firearm MUST get the training required. None of this 1 day re-qualifying to still be able to use one. A minimum of IPSC shooting every month would be a good start.
What do you think the cop who fired a round while in central's holding cells was doing??? "re-qualifying" handling skills (obviously failed).

.

[Lou Girardin]

e.g. the Paul Stowers case in Newmarket some years back...

Stowers was the guy in Welly holding a chrome bar when the cops broke down his door, the cops thought it was a gun. He's dead.

[tracyprier]

I agree. Monthly would be ideal but it won't happen because the department squirms at having to pay for the ammo we use in training days now. Personally I'd be happy to purchase my own box of ammo once a month and head out to the range for a little "group therapy". I believe the AOS training days occur monthly.

Gee, I'd like to have thought the AOS were on the ranges weekly, hell it's their main reason for being.

I know that when I used to shoot IPSC if I went more than a couple of weeks between training/matches my times and accuracy started to suffer.

Skill with a firearm is one of those VERY perishable skills.

[Lou Girardin]

.

BOLLOX!!! I have fired literally thousands of .45 rounds without ANY problems. The Smith & Wesson .45s are crap and misfeed/fire though. Your firearm needs to see a good gunsmith!
The stopping power of the .45 is unquestionable. This is where the 9mm is letting things down. The old maxim that "it's weight - NOT velocity" still holds true with pistol ammo. A bigger projectile travelling slower will do the business.
This is why you have to use a hollowpoint round to get a 9mm to do anything.

I have witnessed a shooter firing 9mm at a falling steel plate and it not even hinting at falling over. Another shooter steps up with a .45 and bang, down she went!



Exactly!!

The Police will not/can not use accurized handguns. They use standard issue.
Plus, if they don't have the resources to attend property crime, how the hell are they going to attend regular training?
Which brings us back to shotguns - easy to learn to use, extremely intimidating and what they hit usually goes :thud:

[spudchucka]

Gee, I'd like to have thought the AOS were on the ranges weekly, hell it's their main reason for being.
They aren't a permanent (full time) squad. They are ordinary cops that work in a variety of areas within the police. They get paged when required to attend an AOS job.

[spudchucka]

Which brings us back to shotguns - easy to learn to use, extremely intimidating and what they hit usually goes :thud:
Did you look at that box of truth web site?

Heres the link to the shotgun tests.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Apparently you still need some skill to use a shotgun effectively.

The tests done on level IIIA body armour are also very interesting.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

I'll maintain my faith in the .223.

Granted the test on that web site don't appear to be overly scientific but I think the images tell a pretty accurate story.

[jrandom]

the only thing the projectile is increasing in is elevation when it leaves the barrel ( remember a projectile travels in an arc)

[giggle]

Are you really trying to assert that a bullet shot out of a gun will rise after leaving the barrel in any case other than when the gun is, you know, pointing up?

[ManDownUnder]

[giggle]

Are you really trying to assert that a bullet shot out of a gun will rise after leaving the barrel in any case other than when the gun is, you know, pointing up?

awww fuckit - now I'm laughing WITH fish instead of AT fish...

yeah - err. me thinks that little piece of lead starts to fall as soon as it can which tends to be the millisecond it leaves the comfortable surrounds of the barrel.

[Sniper]

[giggle]

Are you really trying to assert that a bullet shot out of a gun will rise after leaving the barrel in any case other than when the gun is, you know, pointing up?

Lol, that is a very good theory, but totally false. I believed it for a few years until it was beaten out of me.

[tracyprier]

They aren't a permanent (full time) squad. They are ordinary cops that work in a variety of areas within the police. They get paged when required to attend an AOS job.


Oh right. But we do have full time AOS unit's though right??

[Colapop]

The Police will not/can not use accurized handguns. They use standard issue.
Plus, if they don't have the resources to attend property crime, how the hell are they going to attend regular training?
Which brings us back to shotguns - easy to learn to use, extremely intimidating and what they hit usually goes :thud:
The use of shotguns still begs the question of 'friendly fire' - what would be an acceptable number of casualties in a situation as happened if a shotgun were used? And is a drug crazed (assumed) offender going to stop?

[Indoo]

Stowers was the guy in Welly holding a chrome bar when the cops broke down his door, the cops thought it was a gun. He's dead.

I thought he was they guy on Kyhber pass who pointed a shotgun at the cops after they pulled him over?

[T.W.R]

[giggle]

Are you really trying to assert that a bullet shot out of a gun will rise after leaving the barrel in any case other than when the gun is, you know, pointing up?

mmm :doh: do you really think a bullet travels in straight line !!!! HAHA fool you need to learn a bit about ballistics!:bash:

go sight a rifle in for a 120m zero then fire it at target at 50m, the bullet will hit high possibly upto a minute of angle, then fire the same rifle at a target at say 180m, then the bullet will hit low possibly upto a minute of angle below !

[jrandom]

The use of shotguns still begs the question of 'friendly fire' - what would be an acceptable number of casualties in a situation as happened if a shotgun were used?

Check out the penetration tests Spud linked to. 3-inch spread at 12 feet from 00 buck. That's not exactly knocking-down-crowds-in-wide-swathes territory.

[Sniper]

Oh right. But we do have full time AOS unit's though right??

No we don't. Just guys with specialist training

[Sniper]

mmm :doh: do you really think a bullet travels in straight line !!!! HAHA fool you need to learn a bit about ballistics!:bash:


It depends, you need to be more specific! You are right that if you sight a rifle for 120m, and you fire it at 50m the shot is higher. The scope is calibrated for bullet drop-off not rising.

[jrandom]

mmm :doh: do you really think a bullet travels in straight line !!!! HAHA fool you need to learn a bit about ballistics!:bash:

Sigh. Um. I'll restate it some more.

Projectiles affected by gravity travel in parabolic arcs.

If a projectile is shot parallel to the ground, the arc will immediately begin to trace downwards.

Think about it intuitively for a second. Imagine throwing a cricket ball parallel to the ground. It's not going to rise before it falls. There's nothing fundamentally different about a bullet. It has a certain velocity upon exiting the barrel, which gets modified by forces acting on it, namely gravity and air resistance. Neither of those forces are going to push it up, unless there's a particularly strong wind blowing in a very unusual direction.


go sight a rifle in for a 120m zero then fire it at target at 50m, the bullet will hit high possibly upto a minute of angle, then fire the same rifle at a target at say 180m, then the bullet will hit low possibly upto a minute of angle below !

Listen, you mouth-breathing troglodyte, it hits high at 50m because you had to point the barrel slightly upwards to zero the sights at 120. Gun - Pointing - Fucking - UPWARDS. Think - About - It.

Maybe this inability to engage brain has something to do with our overly feminist society and the lack of male teachers in primary school, or something. Jeez.

[Edit: That was kind of a long post. Maybe your short-term memory has already lost my original point. I'll restate it here: bullets do not rise after leaving the barrel unless the gun is pointing up. Mmm kay?]

[Lias]

That box of truth site is great.

Just wasted more of works time surfing through it all lol.

[Sniper]

Sigh. Um. I'll restate it some more.

Projectiles affected by gravity travel in parabolic arcs.

If a projectile is shot parallel to the ground, the arc will immediately begin to trace downwards.

Think about it intuitively for a second. Imagine throwing a cricket ball parallel to the ground. It's not going to rise before it falls. There's nothing fundamentally different about a bullet. It has a certain velocity upon exiting the barrel, which gets modified by forces acting on it, namely gravity and air resistance. Neither of those forces are going to push it up, unless there's a particularly strong wind blowing in a very unusual direction.

Listen, you mouth-breathing troglodyte, it hits high at 50m because you had to point the barrel slightly upwards to zero the sights at 120. Gun - Pointing - Fucking - UPWARDS. Think - About - It.

Maybe this inability to engage brain has something to do with our overly feminist society and the lack of male teachers in primary school, or something. Jeez.

[Edit: That was kind of a long post. Maybe your short-term memory has already lost my original point. I'll restate it here: bullets do not rise after leaving the barrel unless the gun is pointing up. Mmm kay?]

What I said but in deeper detail. Well said.

[Yokai]

This is from American Rifleman:

For a bullet to rise after launch, it must either be launched in a direction above the horizontal (bore tilted upward), or it must be acted upon by some upward force. Two primary forces act on a bullet after it is launched. One is drag and the other is gravity. Drag acts in a direction exactly opposite to the bullet's direction of travel, and slows its progress. Gravity acts downward, producing a curved trajectory. There is no upward force on the bullet, and, unless it is launched in a direction above the horizontal, it does not rise.


This bit isn't - this is from memories of my AC Instructor and added commentary since.

However, depending on the weapon used, a bullet will seem to be rising. This is because of recoil.
Clamp any weapon perfectly horizontally with no chance of recoil = no rise.
Put the weapon in the hands of a trained marksman = very little chance of rise
Put a Big Gun in the hands of anyone at all (including our trained marksman) = bullet will rise. This is because in Big Guns, a fair chunk of the recoil is taken up by the shooter and not by all the nicely engineered weapon.

If you put a rifle to your shoulder, you have the COM of the rifle way way in front of the fulcrum about which it will turn... Your moment is reduced to a minimal amount.
Put a Desert Eagle in your hands and the COM of the weapon is at and above an initial fulcrum point (your wrist). Recoil in a direct line back from the round is above the fulcrum. Your wrist will jerk back pulling the weapon up. Your elbow unlocks and starts to move your forearm up, exaggerating the motion. Hence the bullet seems to rise.... It hasn't changed trajectory from the point of departure, but it's POD changed before it left the barrel.

So... if you had been trained to fire a pistol at more than 25 feet up to about 15 years ago, you will be taught to aim lower than your firepoint or establish a serious bracing position. With better recoil management systems, this is no longer the case (hence why you no longer see the HOW or HWK stances (Hand Over Wrist and Hand Wrist Knee)...

you certainly don't fire your weapon in Hollywood Gangsta style (gun on its side) for a couple of reasons.
1 - shell casings when ejected are HOT - you don't want one in your face or on your hand
2 - if it's a big gun you don't want any recoil pulling your arm away from the targe in a horizontal plane - let gravity do the work of re-alignment.

[jrandom]

This is from American Rifleman...

Hey, that's almost word-for-word what I just wrote!

Oh dear, maybe I know what I'm talking about. I'll never recover my reputation now...

[ManDownUnder]

hey - look - pictures... (maybe they'll help...)

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/feb2000/951834137.Ph.r.html

[Sniper]

hey - look - pictures... (maybe they'll help...)

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/feb2000/951834137.Ph.r.html

Thanks MDU.

Notice how the barrel points UP

[ManDownUnder]

Thanks MDU.

Notice how the barrel points UP

no no no - the sights point down (or should I reserve semantics for a whole other conversation)

[Colapop]

Check out the penetration tests Spud linked to. 3-inch spread at 12 feet from 00 buck. That's not exactly knocking-down-crowds-in-wide-swathes territory.

True, but it is the public perception that will argue the point however uneducated it may be. It is the perceived notion that the police will or do use overly too much force that will inhibit their (the police) use of firearms in conflict situations. If even one person is harmed at all it will that then cause a media (and thus public) uproar. The media will have a feild day - "Innocent Bystander Shot in Police Blunder"

Personally I'm glad they shot him. I'm sorry they didn't kill him. Regardless of whether the weapon used was a pistol, shotgun, taser or whatever.

[Swoop]

The Police will not/can not use accurized handguns. They use standard issue.

Yes, agree that they must use standard guns - only because the trigger pull is heavier.
My point is reliability, and they are allowed to fix that. #2nd rule of gunfighting = gun must go bang every time trigger pulled.
Rule #1 of gunfighting is "have a gun".:doh:

[Sniper]

no no no - the sights point down (or should I reserve semantics for a whole other conversation)

I will hurt someone. The sights are adjusted according to bullet drop off, not bullet rise. The barrel has to be elevated in relation to where you want your shots to land.

[Swoop]

Stowers was the guy in Welly holding a chrome bar when the cops broke down his door, the cops thought it was a gun. He's dead.

Wellytown? Bugger wrong name - apologies for that.
Newmarket was the guy pulled over and events panned out to 6 shots being fired at person - only the last 1 hit.

Edit: Retracting apology: refer Indoo's post confirming statement.

[Swoop]

I will hurt someone. The sights are adjusted according to bullet drop off, not bullet rise. The barrel has to be elevated in relation to where you want your shots to land.

Exactly. The projectile comes out of the barrel and goes down - not up!
(unless the projectile is made of some material not effected by gravity):blink:

[Swoop]

Bullshit! Glocks come in .45ACP. Do your homework.


Not the model 17, you asinine twat. The 21, and with a 13-round mag only.

Now stop embarrassing yourself


Please point out where in my statement I indicate a model number! "Can you get a glock in .45ACP?" YES!


I refuse to stop embarassing myself, after many years of practice I'm now getting pretty good!:rofl:

[jrandom]

Please point out where in my statement I indicate a model number! "Can you get a glock in .45ACP?" YES!

Well, of course!

I said that the 17 didn't come in .45. Then you went and refuted something I didn't say.

Um. Are we arguing? I'm not sure what it's about.

[spudchucka]

Yes, agree that they must use standard guns - only because the trigger pull is heavier.
The trigger pull of a Glock is not heavy at all.

[spudchucka]

Oh right. But we do have full time AOS unit's though right??
There are tactical response groups, (counter terrorism types) that are full time jobs but the AOS positions are not full time jobs, they are suplementary to the cops normal duties.

[Sniper]

The trigger pull of a Glock is not heavy at all.

In fact, its fucken light compared to some.......

[Swoop]

your misinformed.

About what?

Your statement there has no content or context. What am I misinformed about???????
:weird:

[Swoop]

The trigger pull of a Glock is not heavy at all.

Correct.
If you would like to go back and re-read all the posts in this thread you might find that we were talking about reliability of .45ACP pistols. Sniper has had problems with reliabilty whereas I have not.
A standard service firearm has to have a heavy trigger for 2 reasons.
#1 US liability laws making it even more necessary for the manufacturers to make it hard to fire a firearm.
#2 To prevent small brained retards from firing a firearm "acidentally" (forget safties and simply keeping finger OFF trigger)

The glock has a standard trigger pull. Get used to it.

[Swoop]

too long to explain...too tired

If you want to know about using firearms correctly and safely go and talk to Sniff.

[TraD_MaN]

changed it there sorry

[Virago]

where the heck to the cops aim thoe? i dont get how 3 bullets carnt kill you. shet u can drop deer with a .22 with a well placed shot n the neck why carnt u drop a human with 3 with there pea shooters or woteva they r using...
Can someone please delete the above before Hitcher sees it..........

[TraD_MaN]

woops did i do sumthing bad im going to regret?

[TraD_MaN]

ok fixed it :calm:

[Virago]

woops did i do sumthing bad im going to regret?
Sorry mate, an off-target piss-take at a newbie:msn-wink:

I think you might have set a new record for the number of spelling / grammar mistakes in one small post. And Hitcher is our resident grammarian.:niceone:

[TraD_MaN]

Sorry mate, an off-target piss-take at a newbie:msn-wink:

I think you might have set a new record for the number of spelling / grammar mistakes in one small post. And Hitcher is our resident grammarian.:niceone:


lol yeah umm does this have spell check? :doh:

[RiderInBlack]

Fu*ken great. The dude suffered from schizophrenia and his anti-psychotic drug were not working (probably stopped taking them).
One of the problems of schizophrenia is that you think you are fine and don't need them, so they stop taking them. Then you start going off and think that the doctors/nurses are try to poison you with the anti-psychotic drug. By that time you need taking in cause you're already having dilutions. To bad you need to be deemed to be a danger to yourself or the public before you get put under the Mental Health Act.
Just before you go down the "Lock all the Nutters up" or "shot the Crazies" here somethings for you to think about:
Many people suffer from mental illness (including schizophrenia) and have learnt to control their illness and are safe in the community.
1 in 4 humans have the potential becoming effect with schizophrenia (certainly there is a lot of us that have dilutions about our abilities).
Many "normal" (non-psychotic) medical health problems will effect you abilities to think properly and even cause you to have a form of psychosis.

Flame me if it makes you feel better, but there are more aways to deal with a crises than using a gun.

[thehollowmen]

Agreed, but at the time he was a danger to people around him and to the police.

If you're stupid enough to charge an armed policeman then you deserve what you get.

(please note I'm also one of "those" people with mental illnesses)

[Stevo]

This is the MAIN point!!! Any cop who has access to use a firearm MUST get the training required. None of this 1 day re-qualifying to still be able to use one. A minimum of IPSC shooting every month would be a good start.

Don't you think this might interfere with their traffic ticket issuing quota time???????? Seeing as No one is going to do it outside work time!

[scumdog]

.



the faster a projectile is spinning, the more accurate at distance it will be).

Hmm, may be true - but it is also related to bullet weight etc, a faster spin does NOT necessarily equal accuracy every time.

[Stevo]

Better than anually, but still not enough. But in all honesty, what do the cops think about firearms qualifications on the range. Not enough, too little?
There were up to six police officers shooting in the NRA till a few years ago. All were from Wellington, and as far as I know, I think only one is now shooting on a regaular basis. (Of course, there may be police in some of the other many shooting disciplines in this country, as sport. I suspect the percentage to be very low though)

[scumdog]

Stowers was the guy in Welly holding a chrome bar when the cops broke down his door, the cops thought it was a gun. He's dead.

I thought his name was Paul Chase???? Oh well, maybe I was wrong!!!:shake:

Shot with a 357 - only a dick would face off a 357 with a chrome weight lifting bar - especially if he had recently fired a shot into the roof of a pub with a chrome barrelled shotgun which in the darkness inside a house at night could also look like a chrome weight lifting bar..

[scumdog]

My turn for a rant; some of you expect ALL police to have perfect judgement, to drive like experts, to shoot like marksmen, to fight like gladiators etc etc - we are all just average guys - and you lot pay us accordingly.
We to want to go home to our families, to have day off, to relax and sleep without a worry about what we have done/to do.

We do such a variety of jobs on a daily basis that there is NO way we can do ALL of them to perfection, sorry but that is the way it is.

And so many of you spout so much inaccurate ballistic/firearm info that it worries me how much else is spouted off on this site with the same amount of inaccuracy - and is accepted by the unknowing as fact.

END OF RANT.

[scumdog]

Maybe.
Hindsite is 20 / 20

I can see a big public objection to police carrying both pistols and tasers. And ranged tasers are one shot aren't they? (at least the ones I played with were but that was years back)

Yes - but you can clip on another load pretty quickly, - goes through a leather jacket pretty good too!

The good thing about carrying both tazers AND pistols is that the 'bad guy' is not sure what you're pointing at him - and even if it is a tazer he knows what happens if he get hit by one.

[thehollowmen]

Hmm, may be true - but it is also related to bullet weight etc, a faster spin does NOT necessarily equal accuracy every time.

Faster spin means the groups will be tighter (especially if nothing else changes eg gun mounted in a vice and fired) ... but that don't mean they'll be placed any better.

[thehollowmen]

Yes - but you can clip on another load pretty quickly, - goes through a leather jacket pretty good too!

The good thing about carrying both tazers AND pistols is that the 'bad guy' is not sure what you're pointing at him - and even if it is a tazer he knows what happens if he get hit by one.

Would a taser attachment on the trigger guard of the glock make things more fun?
*evil grin*

mounted like those mag light accessories or laser sights?

[scumdog]

Faster spin means the groups will be tighter (especially if nothing else changes eg gun mounted in a vice and fired) ... but that don't mean they'll be placed any better.

Too fast a rate of spin will fling heavy bullets all over the place. (sorry if I have this wrong and it should be 'light bullets' but one rate of spin does not all bullets suit).

[Stevo]

Faster spin means the groups will be tighter (especially if nothing else changes eg gun mounted in a vice and fired) ... but that don't mean they'll be placed any better.
Why do you think a faster spin will group tighter???? I think this is a VERY relative assumption, and quite vague. Like most things it is a matter of finding perfect balance between all factors in an equation. Faster spin does increase the odds of a bullet disintegrating mid flight. Believe me that happens more than you might think.


My turn for a rant; some of you expect ALL police to have perfect judgement, to drive like experts, to shoot like marksmen, to fight like gladiators etc etc - we are all just average guys - and you lot pay us accordingly.
We to want to go home to our families, to have day off, to relax and sleep without a worry about what we have done/to do.

We do such a variety of jobs on a daily basis that there is NO way we can do ALL of them to perfection, sorry but that is the way it is.

I sympathise with you. You have no idea how many Fark ups I make in a day! But I still think I'm good! LOL. But I do set myself high standards.


And so many of you spout so much inaccurate ballistic/firearm info that it worries me how much else is spouted off on this site with the same amount of inaccuracy - and is accepted by the unknowing as fact.
Yup. Cannot believe some of the crap I've read in this thread! I don't know pistols, so don't talk pistols. Had a go with a few, (target 22, revolver think it was a .38, and a very nice semi .45) at a pistol club. Doesn't make me an expert tho.

[spudchucka]

Correct.
If you would like to go back and re-read all the posts in this thread you might find that we were talking about reliability of .45ACP pistols. Sniper has had problems with reliabilty whereas I have not.
A standard service firearm has to have a heavy trigger for 2 reasons.
#1 US liability laws making it even more necessary for the manufacturers to make it hard to fire a firearm.
#2 To prevent small brained retards from firing a firearm "acidentally" (forget safties and simply keeping finger OFF trigger)

The glock has a standard trigger pull. Get used to it.
Drop the attitude FFS.

You said that the police must use standard issue firearms but only because they have a heavier trigger pull. Heavier than what? A boiled egg? Or were you meaning heavier than a competition target shooting pistol?

The trigger pull on a Glock is not even remotely heavy, if you want to insist that its "standard" then thats fine by me but it aint heavy. And that makes your statement about, police / must use / standard issue / heavy trigger pull, nonsense.

Jesus H Christ there is some fucken bullshit in this thread.

[thehollowmen]

Why do you think a faster spin will group tighter???? I think this is a VERY relative assumption, and quite vague. Like most things it is a matter of finding perfect balance between all factors in an equation. Faster spin does increase the odds of a bullet disintegrating mid flight. Believe me that happens more than you might think.


I'm basing this on years of archery, and a bit of shooting.

With rotation in relation to bullet to bullet variances I'm thinking the physics behind it must be pretty similar.

Any defect in an arrow will be ballenced out pretty well if rotates nice and fast.. you can watch the arrows do a helix type path that grows wider as it heads down the range. Bullets also can have a slight tumble (is that the right word) where the nose or the rear moves in a slight circle compared with the other end. The faster you can make it rotate (And travel) the finer the flight path helix becomes.

The direction these helixes start in is dependant on variation between arrows (amoung other things) ... make the helixes small and you get a tighter group.
hard to explain without good diagrams.. if someone does get my drift, please tell me if I'm on the right path here

[thehollowmen]

Too fast a rate of spin will fling heavy bullets all over the place. (sorry if I have this wrong and it should be 'light bullets' but one rate of spin does not all bullets suit).

I can understand that too

We did a lot of 'arrow tuning' to try and get the spin and velocity matched ... we found that as we changed one the other would change as well.

From it was the lighter arrows that could be flung off to a side as they left the bow if they had too much spin

[thehollowmen]

wee this is a great way to get my post count up
less than three

[scumdog]

I can understand that too

We did a lot of 'arrow tuning' to try and get the spin and velocity matched ... we found that as we changed one the other would change as well.

From it was the lighter arrows that could be flung off to a side as they left the bow if they had too much spin

Worse than that - with arrows you had their 'spine' to worry about, at least I don't have THAT worry!!

[thehollowmen]

Worse than that - with arrows you had their 'spine' to worry about, at least I don't have THAT worry!!
ehehehe that too
but that canceled out not long after they left the bow.. the spline just had to overcome the archer's paradox didn't it?

[spudchucka]

At some stage the rate of spin must create a gyroscopic effect on the projectile. Have you ever tried to hold onto the axle of a bicycle wheel or similar spinning at high speed? They sort of have a mind of there own and want to twist or gyrate around.

[idb]

ehehehe that too
but that canceled out not long after they left the bow.. the spline just had to overcome the archer's paradox didn't it?
Ah yes, the archers paradox..
"Would I have been better off choosing a gun....?"

[scumdog]

At some stage the rate of spin must create a gyroscopic effect on the projectile. Have you ever tried to hold onto the axle of a bicycle wheel or similar spinning at high speed? They sort of have a mind of there own and want to twist or gyrate around.

True - but try a 110grn bullet and then a 220grn bullet through the same barrel at the same velocity and you'll find one of the bullets will fly true whereas as the other will 'scatter' into a looser group, the rate of turns per metre. (or feet for oldies like me) really make a difference.

[spudchucka]

I don't know shit all about balistics but it seems to me that there would be an optimum rate of spin for each class of ammo and the weapons barrel should be rifled to generate that ideal rate of spin.

[scumdog]

I don't know shit all about balistics but it seems to me that there would be an optimum rate of spin for each class of ammo and the weapons barrel should be rifled to generate that ideal rate of spin.

Normally true, they ARE geared for the normal bullet weight - it's only those weights at both extremes of the range that cause problems - and at less than 100 metres on a human you would never know the difference, only when longer ranges/tighter groups are the order of the day is the difference obvious.

[jrandom]

True - but try a 110grn bullet and then a 220grn bullet through the same barrel at the same velocity...

110 vs. 220 grains at the same caliber? Which has the wider spread? The 110? Are you sure that it's not just the lighter bullet drifting around more?

Not that I'm trying to argue against the different-spin-rates thing.

But, jeez, ballistics is the ultimate bullshit subject, isn't it? I think the problem is all the numbnut yokels and spotty geeks; the same character attributes that make them want to play with guns also make them more likely to spout crap in an attempt to impress random people with their knowledge.

Goodness knows, *I* only know as much as can be observed experimentally or deduced from the obvious physics of firearms. And I ain't no handgun expert. Maybe one of these days I'll go to the effort of getting a 'B' licence; SWMBO has expressed some keenness on pistol shooting, recently. IPSC matches, eh: fun for the whole family.

[scumdog]

110 vs. 220 grains at the same caliber? Which has the wider spread? The 110? Are you sure that it's not just the lighter bullet drifting around more?

Not that I'm trying to argue against the different-spin-rates thing.

.

Yeah, if my memory serves me well a lighter bullet weight requires more twist (in the same calibre).

The rest of your post is true, many a discussion (fight?) I have had with uneducated drongos who believe that bullets 'fly' upwards, that velocity is everything etc - almost as bad as bike 'experts'!!

[Motu]

I've just heard through a Chinese whisper...from someone who knows someone who....etc - that the inocent bystander wasn't killed with a knife....but by a stray bullet.5 shots were fired,but not all found their intended target,one found an unintended target....

[spudchucka]

If that is true then todays news should be very interesting. The cops couldn't keep that quiet for terribly long.

[spudchucka]

The police web site has just a small piece on the mans death, which states that he died after being stabbed.

http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/2198.php

A post mortem would have been done by now and if there were gun shot wounds then I'm pretty sure we would know about it.

[idb]

I've just heard through a Chinese whisper...from someone who knows someone who....etc - that the inocent bystander wasn't killed with a knife....but by a stray bullet.5 shots were fired,but not all found their intended target,one found an unintended target....
I heard it was a magic bullet from a grassy knoll.....

[scumdog]

I heard it was a magic bullet from a grassy knoll.....

And a second shooter was involved......

[Swoop]

I thought he was they guy on Kyhber pass who pointed a shotgun at the cops after they pulled him over?

Yes, yes, yes! That's the incident I was on about. Newmarket area.
Good on ya for that Indoo.

[Sniper]

I've just heard through a Chinese whisper...from someone who knows someone who....etc - that the inocent bystander wasn't killed with a knife....but by a stray bullet.5 shots were fired,but not all found their intended target,one found an unintended target....

I smell porky pies.....

[Virago]

I've just heard through a Chinese whisper...from someone who knows someone who....etc - that the inocent bystander wasn't killed with a knife....but by a stray bullet.5 shots were fired,but not all found their intended target,one found an unintended target....
The CIA have denied any involvement, so that proves that there is a conspiracy involved here......:blink:

[Lou Girardin]

I thought his name was Paul Chase???? Oh well, maybe I was wrong!!!:shake:

Shot with a 357 - only a dick would face off a 357 with a chrome weight lifting bar - especially if he had recently fired a shot into the roof of a pub with a chrome barrelled shotgun which in the darkness inside a house at night could also look like a chrome weight lifting bar..

You are quite right, memory plays tricks when you're aged.

[Lou Girardin]

I don't know shit all about balistics but it seems to me that there would be an optimum rate of spin for each class of ammo and the weapons barrel should be rifled to generate that ideal rate of spin.

Eggsactly. That's why the rate of turn in rifling was changed when 5.56 Nato went from 55gr to 63gr bullets.

[Lou Girardin]

I've just heard through a Chinese whisper...from someone who knows someone who....etc - that the inocent bystander wasn't killed with a knife....but by a stray bullet.5 shots were fired,but not all found their intended target,one found an unintended target....

It sounds doubtful, the reports say the cops arrived after he was stabbed.

[Sniper]

But if you use reverse thread, will the bullet fly backwards or will its range be significantly lowered?

[sAsLEX]

But if you use reverse thread, will the bullet fly backwards or will its range be significantly lowered?

you mean spi nto the left instead of the right or what?

[ManDownUnder]

But if you use reverse thread, will the bullet fly backwards or will its range be significantly lowered?

Sure will, it's confusing as hell but the basic plot it that the bad guy comes back to life and ends up home with a coffee while the cops watch in horror as all the paperwork gets undone

*gnab* *gnab* - !!!PU SDNAH RUOY TUP !!!EZEERF

[Sniper]

you mean spi nto the left instead of the right or what?

Yep or visa versa. Now this is a confusing question and Im after a correct answer. Its not a real piss take but MDU has almost got it right........ in a freaky way :doobey:

[Motu]

It sounds doubtful, the reports say the cops arrived after he was stabbed.

Just thought I'd put a different spin on it....

[sAsLEX]

Yep or visa versa. Now this is a confusing question and Im after a correct answer. Its not a real piss take but MDU has almost got it right........ in a freaky way :doobey:

hmmm gyroscopic progression or whatevery would mean the rounds would drift in different directions if thats what you mean?

[Sniper]

hmmm gyroscopic progression or whatevery would mean the rounds would drift in different directions if thats what you mean?

Im going to give you that, and some green stuff

[sAsLEX]

Im going to give you that, and some green stuff

would of been quicker if the question was less cryptic! have had some great discussions/arguments with the likes of the one at Navman who no longer presides here over the old gyroscopic stuffs

search for some pruddy diagrams

[Sniper]

would of been quicker if the question was less cryptic!
Where would the fun have been in that?

[ManDownUnder]

Im going to give you that, and some green stuff

Or are you talking about the meason gun - with hypothetical bullets that go faster than the speed of light - thereby hitting the target before the trigger is pulled... (raising the question, what if you change you mind after the victim has been hit - do they undie?)

[spudchucka]

But if you use reverse thread, will the bullet fly backwards or will its range be significantly lowered?
And shouldn't southern hemisphere firearms have counter clock-wise rifling and nothern hemisphere weapons have clock-wise rifling??:blink:

[Sniper]

And shouldn't southern hemisphere firearms have counter clock-wise rifling and nothern hemisphere weapons have clock-wise rifling??:blink:

That only works with flushing toilets. Lol!!!

[spudchucka]

hmmm gyroscopic progression or whatevery would mean the rounds would drift in different directions if thats what you mean?
I'm guessing that spinning must create some degree of torque on the round, too much or too little may cause deviation in flight???

[spudchucka]

That only works with flushing toilets. Lol!!!
Maybe I should build a rifled spud gun and start experimenting!!

[Sniper]

I'm guessing that spinning must create some degree of torque on the round, too much or too little may cause deviation in flight???

Clever, so close to the exact answer

[Xtat1k]

i believe the its the M15A4 the police are using now, they bought 880 of them i think and spent 3million dollars on the damn things. now we got decent guns we just need ppl to shot them right hehehe. much better than the old remmington bolt actions. heres the M15A4: http://armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/m15a4_carbine.htm but the nz police are using a 5 shot mag i believe... maybe a 10. 10's the legal limit anyways. :ar15:

[ManDownUnder]

Clever, so close to the exact answer

I'm guessing there is a corresponding torque reaction in the rifle itself, thereby introducing muzzle movement potentially putting the bullet off track to start with...

Changing the twist from LH to RH (would reverse the torqe reaction in the rifle itself...)

or am I spouting crap again?

[N4CR]

Clever, so close to the exact answer

The higher the knitec energy in the round then the more damage it does as well... so if you spun it uber fast then it would penetrate more compared to a slow spinning round - as the energy needed to be dissapated on impact increases with more Ek from the spin as well as the bullet velocity towards the target. edit: I'm Guessing that is one aspect of it, but different directions of rifling.. who knows. Counteracting cartridge ejection torque?

[spudchucka]

i believe the its the M15A4 the police are using now, they bought 880 of them i think and spent 3million dollars on the damn things. now we got decent guns we just need ppl to shot them right hehehe. much better than the old remmington bolt actions. heres the M15A4: http://armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/m15a4_carbine.htm but the nz police are using a 5 shot mag i believe... maybe a 10. 10's the legal limit anyways. :ar15:
Post number 51 of this thread has this link to the Bushmaster M4A3.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/azc-c15rm4ft.asp

Which is the weapon currently replacing the Remmingtons.

The Remmington has a 5 shot mag, the Bushmaster has a 20 round capacity.

The weapon in the link says 10 rounds, top loading, the ones the cops are getting are probably just a law enforcement version of the same weapon, hence the higher magazine capacity.

http://www.bushmaster.com/le/

That looks more like it.

As does this one.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bcwa3f14m4iz.asp

[Sniper]

Its a very very very logical answer. You guys are giving me technical answers.....

[Lou Girardin]

Maybe I should build a rifled spud gun and start experimenting!!

For shooting relatives?

[spudchucka]

For shooting relatives?
Billy Bob already done fell in the gator pool. There aint nobody else left to be shooting or feuding with cept them pesky Girardin's!

[ManDownUnder]

Billy Bob already done fell in the gator pool. There aint nobody else left to be shooting or feuding with cept them pesky Girardin's!

paw - get me mar gun I gots me some shootin' ta do

[Sniper]

paw - get me mar gun I gots me some shootin' ta do

YeeeeeHaw, them damn cridders arr on da stoop 'gain

"Hitcher is going to die when he see's this thread

[scumdog]

You are quite right, memory plays tricks when you're aged.

I hope like hell you're a shitload older than me after making THAT statement!!!!:wacko: :whistle:

[Macktheknife]

Ah yes, the archers paradox..
"Would I have been better off choosing a gun....?"
ROFLMAO thats funny!

[Macktheknife]

When all is said and done though folks I say "Good on the cops", seriously. I have had the experience of being on the receiving end of some nutcases in my time, and also of having the weapons to deal with said nutcases. I can assure you that it is a very different thing when you are 'johnny on the spot' than calmly debating it after the fact.

Myself I would always be shooting to kill, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 in my opinion.

I am not aware of any official policy in the NZ police of 'not shooting to kill' any here qualified to correct me? Spudchucka or similar currently in the job? seems a little silly to try not to kill them if you ask me, kinda like using a chainsaw like a bat, you can do it but its not designed to do it well. lol

[sAsLEX]

Its a very very very logical answer. You guys are giving me technical answers.....

you lost me sorry, technical answers are the only true answer.........maybe

[geoffm]

They have recently changed the firearms re-certification shoot from annually to six monthly. So at least now we get to go to the range twice a year.

Is it still only 50 rounds though? Hell that is plinking-at-cans ammo usage. A good pistol match is up to 300 rounds - every month.
At least with some more practice, not only will I be able to score some more empty cases, there might be less holes in the range roof...
Geoff

[geoffm]

I don't know shit all about balistics but it seems to me that there would be an optimum rate of spin for each class of ammo and the weapons barrel should be rifled to generate that ideal rate of spin.

As an example - in my 0.223 (Remington 700BDL), it will put 3 shots through a 10c piece at 100m (5c if I am in good form on the right day), using 55gr Hornady projectiles and BM2 powder. I tried some 70gr cartridges - group would have made a shotgun blush.

Geoff

[scumdog]

As an example - in my 0.223 (Remington 700BDL), it will put 3 shots through a 10c piece at 100m (5c if I am in good form on the right day), using 55gr Hornady projectiles and BM2 powder. I tried some 70gr cartridges - group would have made a shotgun blush.

Geoff

Yeah, I mentioned that sort of thing earlier, it's more important with the smaller calibres, my 308 is not quite so fussy. (never tried a 220grn load through it though)

[Sniper]

Yeah, I mentioned that sort of thing earlier, it's more important with the smaller calibres, my 308 is not quite so fussy. (never tried a 220grn load through it though)

I tried lots of loads, but then, they were all in a box and they hit what I wanted them too. Except one (The bastard)

[Pixie]

'Building up impact velocity'?????????? The projectile has already done that as it exits the barrel - it's all slow-down after that!!!
Naaah, mate ,these are special James Bond rocket rounds:blip:

[Sniper]

Naaah, mate ,these are special James Bond rocket rounds:blip:

Off nightfire?

[avgas]

Depends on what the guy is on. I have seen someone high on 3 types of drugs take 7 shots of .38mm and 2 mags of 9mm before he eventually faltered and didn't get up.

I have also seen a guy go into shock and die from a fucken shrapnel wound in the knee. Depends on whos getting shot and how well you can place a bullet.
I can quote this to be true - i got up on pure adrenilin, with no pain, made 5 steps to find i had a 2nd right knee joint.....in the middle of my tibia (which looked really cool when i look back at).
Also had a case when i was wasted (on unmentioned substances) during my mispent youth..... and i twisted both ankles and still walked 5km home.
Human body is MEGA_AWESOME

[SARGE]

Depends on what the guy is on. I have seen someone high on 3 types of drugs take 7 shots of .38mm and 2 mags of 9mm before he eventually faltered and didn't get up.

I have also seen a guy go into shock and die from a fucken shrapnel wound in the knee. Depends on whos getting shot and how well you can place a bullet.



you guys never learn the sniper credo?..


one shot one kill?



I'll give you a glock and see how well you place a shot when they are coming towards you with a knife.



deal... when do we start?




BTW those advocating .45ACP obviously haven't fired it. You'd be lucky to get 1 round on target with an M1911A1 let alone more. Especially with the amount of training our cops get.

.45's kick like a mule.. great stopping power though.. 9mm is too fast and pointed..


.45 on the other hand, is a big fat slow round that will carry 85% of your body weight out with it..




Why do US cops and some military forces (Vietnam, Malaya) use shotguns in close quarter work?


i carried a Mossberg 5500 semi-auto, loaded with 10 00 buck in a jungle rigged clip setup ( 3 mags of 10 , taped together: 2 up 1 down) for entry work, at various times i carried the MP5, M203 (loaded with a few buckshot room cleaners...), M16, High Standard M10-a and my all time favorite was the M60 as a shoulder fired main weapon( 2 on each team rigged like that ..)

sidearms we were issued the 9mm but i traded mine back for a surplus 1911a

always strapped the trusty Mossberg though..

[Timber020]

Anything bigger the 9mm wouldnt be conjusive with NZ police training. Getting any accuracy out of a pistol is a challange, lifting the bar by giving policemen (and women) 40's or 45's would just mean less rounds finding there intended target and possibly finding other things to knock down.

In some situations the 9mm isnt sufficent but for the amount of situations that require officers to use firearms in this country, I dont think its worth seriously debating. You can always improve on firepower, but its weakness is always going to be its application.

In many situations the v6 commodores have proven woefully inadiquate when in pursuit, but does this mean every cop should be in a GTR skyline?

[sAsLEX]

Naaah, mate ,these are special James Bond rocket rounds:blip:

dont laugh there are plans for propelled and guided rounds fired from large calibre "sniper" rifles,

[spudchucka]

I am not aware of any official policy in the NZ police of 'not shooting to kill' any here qualified to correct me? Spudchucka or similar currently in the job? seems a little silly to try not to kill them if you ask me, kinda like using a chainsaw like a bat, you can do it but its not designed to do it well. lol
Pretty much everbody is missunderstanding the police officers intention when shooting an offender. They aren't interested or motivated by killing the person. Their only reason to shoot an offender is to incapacitate them in order to stop them from doing whatever it is they were doing that required them to be incapacitated.

The only way to quickly and effectively incapacitate a person with a firearm is to shoot at centre mass. The person may likely die as a result but the cops intention was never to cause the persons death, it was only to stop them doing whatever it was the were doing.

[scumdog]

Anything bigger the 9mm wouldnt be conjusive with NZ police training. Getting any accuracy out of a pistol is a challange, lifting the bar by giving policemen (and women) 40's or 45's would just mean less rounds finding there intended target and possibly finding other things to knock down.

In some situations the 9mm isnt sufficent but for the amount of situations that require officers to use firearms in this country, I dont think its worth seriously debating. You can always improve on firepower, but its weakness is always going to be its application.

In many situations the v6 commodores have proven woefully inadiquate when in pursuit, but does this mean every cop should be in a GTR skyline?

Very logical and sensible analagy - so what the hell is it doing on THIS site??

BTW I noticed there was no criticism of the car chase in Canterbury when the Police were trying to stop (did stop) a mad axe weilding lunatic that had already attacked somebody.:bash:

Is it o.k. to pursue unless the other car crashes and people get hurt/killed and then it's NOT o.k. to pursue?? Is that how the 'rules' work??:blink:

Likewise with shootings??

[sAsLEX]

BTW I noticed there was no criticism of the car chase in Canterbury when the Police were trying to stop (did stop) a mad axe weilding lunatic that had already attacked somebody.:bash:


Thats as people view that as a real crime rather than slipping over the speed limit

[scumdog]

Thats as people view that as a real crime rather than slipping over the speed limit

Sorry, so the police just KNOW that the driver of every car they chase that is over the speed limit has done nothing other than exceed the speed limit????

[sAsLEX]

Sorry, so the police just KNOW that the driver of every car they chase that is over the speed limit has done nothing other than exceed the speed limit????

your wording suggested that they had prior knowledge of the crazy axe man being in the car

[Lou Girardin]

I hope like hell you're a shitload older than me after making THAT statement!!!!:wacko: :whistle:

Yeah but you still have 'cop memory'. Like remembering offenders names from 20 years back. I still do OK on reg plates.

[scumdog]

your wording suggested that they had prior knowledge of the crazy axe man being in the car

Yeah - THIS time they did, other times the find out things AFTER the event....

If the guy had gone scorching past a cop and nobody knew what he had done and the cop shrugged his shoulders and thought "neh, he's only speeding"...???

And a short distance down the road the guy had then taken to somebody else the media would start salivating and the muck-forks would be working overtime.

All hypothetical of course.....

Sort of like most of the 20/20 hindsight in a lot of the postings on the topic:doh:

[Lou Girardin]

BTW I noticed there was no criticism of the car chase in Canterbury when the Police were trying to stop (did stop) a mad axe weilding lunatic that had already attacked somebody.:bash:



He'd already shown that he was dangerous by attacking someone. Which is a little different from chasing someone till he crashes because he was speeding initially.

[Lou Girardin]

your wording suggested that they had prior knowledge of the crazy axe man being in the car

They did. A cop saw the attack in Bealy.

[scumdog]

They did. A cop saw the attack in Bealy.

See post #217.

And it seems like a hell of a lot of site members only get their news via KB!!!!

(normally much later though)

[Sniper]

you guys never learn the sniper credo?..

one shot one kill?

This was a long time ago before I was even in NZ



deal... when do we start?

I wouldn't be so rash as to test someone from the forces.

[Stevo]

This was a long time ago before I was even in NZ




I wouldn't be so rash as to test someone from the forces.
Must be time you went to bed then Sniper to dream about the "forces":bash: :killingme :killingme :killingme

[Stevo]

I don't know shit all about balistics but it seems to me that there would be an optimum rate of spin for each class of ammo and the weapons barrel should be rifled to generate that ideal rate of spin.
If ya ask me you seem to have ballistics sussed!
Trouble is.................... often these optimums can only be done by trial and error. As someone suggested most projectiles have recommended twist rates, so as to take a large portion of testing away. For example if the twist rate of a rifle is 1/12, the bullet is doing 1 rotation every 12 inches, and if it leaves the barrel at 3000 ft/sec it is not rocket science how many revolutions per second it is doing. If the bullet was solid lead in a 308 for example how many projectiles would hit a target (if any). The copper jacket is only to hold the lead together, but too faster spin (because of the leads rotational inertia) will cause some to self destruct, because the copper jacket simply cannot hold the lead in. Too little spin causes a projectiles filght to be more easily affected by outside factors (wind, or blades of grass, whatever)
The reason some people say "I can group 1 inch at 50 yards" and another person can say "I tried that ammo, and it was crap" is because of harmonics. In other words badly tuned equipment will cause the rifle to vibrate like a tuning fork.

[Stevo]

But if you use reverse thread, will the bullet fly backwards or will its range be significantly lowered?
No
No
The projectile will fly backwards if you put it in the case backwards.:wari:
If a bullet rotated the other way range would not be affected. (Debatable though whether one would be required to reverse the barrel thread if the direction of the rifling was changed. Could be a problem...... maybe)

[Pixie]

No
No
The projectile will fly backwards if you put it in the case backwards.:wari:
If a bullet rotated the other way range would not be affected. (Debatable though whether one would be required to reverse the barrel thread if the direction of the rifling was changed. Could be a problem...... maybe)
Except where it is fired straight up.
Then it will fall back to earth backwards,still rotating

[sAsLEX]

Except where it is fired straight up.
Then it will fall back to earth backwards,still rotating

nope it wont, a bullet is carefully designed to fly in one direction, the bullet would there fore flick round during falling and jab in to the ground front first.

try throwing a dart straight up they will fall point first most times

[Sniper]

Must be time you went to bed then Sniper to dream about the "forces":bash: :killingme :killingme :killingme

If I still had a kneecap I would still be there

[Sniper]

The projectile will fly backwards if you put it in the case backwards.:wari:
If a bullet rotated the other way range would not be affected. (Debatable though whether one would be required to reverse the barrel thread if the direction of the rifling was changed. Could be a problem...... maybe)

That was what I was looking for, but hey, I did teach you that :killingme :killingme

[sAsLEX]

That was what I was looking for, but hey, I did teach you that :killingme :killingme


hmmm still going to have to go with the fact the due to the shap of most "rounds" that they would not be to stable flying backwards and would probally right themselves during flight

[Sniper]

hmmm still going to have to go with the fact the due to the shap of most "rounds" that they would not be to stable flying backwards and would probally right themselves during flight

True, but the answer I was looking for was based on what way the barrel was threaded. As Stevo said, the range wouldn't be effected, the accuracy (Depending on the thread) would.

You are both right.

[scumdog]

nope it wont, a bullet is carefully designed to fly in one direction, the bullet would there fore flick round during falling and jab in to the ground front first.

try throwing a dart straight up they will fall point first most times

Eh? I don't think so Tonto -a bullet is heavier towards the rear so using your dart analogy it should fall bum first. (in actual fact they often start to tumble lazily as they fall)

BTW The only similarity between a dart and a bullet is that they're both missiles of sorts, most other shit about them is different.

[scumdog]

hmmm still going to have to go with the fact the due to the shap of most "rounds" that they would not be to stable flying backwards and would probally right themselves during flight

They would NEVER 'right themselves' until they stopped spinning!!

They most likely wouldn't travel as far, they might not be as accurate and throat erosion in the chamber would increase due to gas forcing its way past the tapered bullet nose as it left the cartridge.

[Wolf]

The reason some people say "I can group 1 inch at 50 yards" and another person can say "I tried that ammo, and it was crap" is because of harmonics. In other words badly tuned equipment will cause the rifle to vibrate like a tuning fork.
When you purchase that Rolls Royce of weapons, the Walther WA2000 sniper rifle, they ask you, in addition to which calibre you prefer, what weight of both projectile and powder and (I think) the profile of the projectile so that they may set up the rifle barrel and the sights so that where you aim, it hits. They test fire and adjust the weapon - tune it, as Stevo says - so that with your preferred rounds, you will get optimal performance from the weapon.

Many custom or handmade firearms are built around both the user and the (specific) bullet. It is assumed that the user is already adept at precision handloading and is not using out-of-the-box rounds.

Likewise, match-grade firearms are made for match-grade ammunition.

[Pixie]

nope it wont, a bullet is carefully designed to fly in one direction, the bullet would there fore flick round during falling and jab in to the ground front first.


try throwing a dart straight up they will fall point first most times
WRONG!!
The gyroscopic effect will maintain the orientation the projectile had when it left the muzzle,as long as it continues to spin.And at 180,000 rpm (for a 3000 fps round from a 1/12 barrel) that's a looong time.

[SARGE]

I wouldn't be so rash as to test someone from the forces.


alot of our training was CQB / combat shooting/ etc.. up close and personal , high stress situations stuff ( nature of the MOS..).. someone coming at me with a weapon means very little.. if i am armed i can group shots where ever i want them ( double tap.. anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice..)

if i am unarmed v. an armed opponant..i may take a few cuts/ whacks or various injuries but as my pop always told me..

" its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog.."

US Marines are well known worldwide for the killer instinct.. do your job and deal with the pain later.. i'll take a stab in order to get in close..

thats where it gets nasty

[ManDownUnder]

alot of our training was CQB / combat shooting/ etc.. up close and personal , high stress situations stuff ( nature of the MOS..).. someone coming at me with a weapon means very little.. if i am armed i can group shots where ever i want them ( double tap.. anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice..)

if i am unarmed v. an armed opponant..i may take a few cuts/ whacks or various injuries but as my pop always told me..

" its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog.."

US Marines are well known worldwide for the killer instinct.. do your job and deal with the pain later.. i'll take a stab in order to get in close..

thats where it gets nasty

*mental note - don't piss SARGE off*

[Stevo]

Many custom or handmade firearms are built around both the user and the (specific) bullet. It is assumed that the user is already adept at precision handloading and is not using out-of-the-box rounds.


I am not bagging ALL out of the box rounds, some may (by chance) just happen to have the right amount of powder in the case to enable your equipment to fire very tight groups. Cos at the end of the day, it doesn't matter a toss what brand of case you are using. The most important things are: The case uniformity in a batch, projectile seating length (off the rifling), and the amount and type of powder used. Some brands of primer can supposedly be more consistent, but I have struggled to find variance in my testing.


Likewise, match-grade firearms are made for match-grade ammunition.
Close. Match grade ammunition is made for a match grade rifle. Tis easier to make ammo to suit a rifle than vice versa

[Sniper]

I will only use box rounds. Only cause of an unfortunate incident with loading my own. Doesn't matter to me, I could still hit the ace at 600 yards if I wanted to.

[Wolf]

I'm not dissing out of the box rounds - most of the better brands have pretty good consistency. I never got into handloading myself but when I visited the pistol club they said that if I went centrefire rather than .22 I would be better served to handload in the interests of precise consistency and economy. All of them there saved their brass for reloading.

I used the cheapest of the Eley .22lr target rounds in my old BSA target rifle - not exactly UIT grade but still very consistent and, face it, my rifle was not exactly a match grade Anshutz or Walther, either...

In my .243 hunting rifle I usually used Norma and for my .22 hunting rifles I used standard Winchesters in the semi-auto and "subsonic" (velocity below the speed of sound) for the bolt action as I have a moderator and I wanted to cut out the "travel noise" and further lessen the report.

[Wolf]

Any road, at the risk of getting vaguely back on topic. The 9mm is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the be-all and end-all of calibres. Nor is the .40 or the .45 - they each have their advantages and disadvantages and what suits one person will not necessarily suit another. Some may find they can never accurately master the .45 or they may find 10mm or .40 is prohibitively expensive to get in the requisite amount of practice to familiarise themselves with their weapons.

For all the stated weaknesses of the 9mm, the fact remains that it is cheap to feed - even good quality ammo is relatively cheap when compared with other calibres and there is a plethora of very cheap military grade ammo out there which, while it will not win you the UIT Centrefire event or nail perps 9 times out of ten, it will cost you fuck all to burn through a thousand or so rounds on the range and put you a fair few rounds worth of experience ahead of someone who spent the same dollar value on dearer .40 rounds.

For that reason, I would go with the 9mm, buy shitloads of cheap crappy ammo and a couple of boxes of good devastating ammunition, put the good shit in the safe at home and spend hours down at the range with the cheap stuff practising double-tapping and Mozambique patterns until such time as the weapon felt like an extension of my arm and I could accurately draw, aim and double-tap the CoM in under 1.5 seconds whilst making evasive manoeuvres (most people in this thread would know why.)

I would refine my technique later using a few of the more expensive rounds to get used to how they perform compared with the military surplus stuff and when carrying the firearm for protection or as part of a police/security job I would load up with the good, devastating rounds.

For my part, I would rather have accurate placement over supposedly devastating firepower with which I may miss because I couldn't afford to put the practice in.

The argument of the "best calibre" has raged on for years and I have read many reports written by proponents of various calibres where the point to various metrics that "prove" their point - according to all the evidence I've seen, it has been categorically proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are all better than each other...

More balanced reports say that bullet placement and the right projectile is more important than considerations of calibre - a couple of decent hydrashok rounds in the chest is going to fuck most people up regardless of whether it's a 9mm or a .40.

Sure, there will be those who're drugged out who'll shrug off the pain and carry on - but a firearm is not the magic wand you see in the movies where you point it, pull the trigger and it obliterates the baddies.

According to figures I've read, 85% of people shot by the cops in the course of their duties actually survive - most of them, however, were stopped from what they were doing... placed hors de combat by the trauma of being slammed in the CoM by a couple of high-speed, scientifically designed projectiles. Hydrostatic shock and decent placing can achieve a lot without actually killing.

At the end of the day, there are no hard and fast answers and people will still forge on regardless after taking several .45ACP and others will still die instantly from a .22lr that wasn't even intentionally aimed at them. There is no one "magic" calibre that will perform as desired under all situations for all people, any more than there's a "magic" firearm that suits all conditions or people.

Take the Glock. Go on take it, I don't want it. A great reliable, safe firearm. However, the angle between the line of the barrel and the grip does not suit me for an instinctive aim. With a Glock I swing my hand up into what feels like a comfortable, natural position and the pistol is pointing downwards. I have to tilt my wrist upwards to align the sights.

The Walther P99, Heckler and Koch P7, Walther P-38 - when I do the same with any of them, the sights are perfectly aligned, the line of the barrel is pointing at the target and not at the ground some distance in front of it.

[Sniper]

alot of our training was CQB / combat shooting/ etc.. up close and personal , high stress situations stuff ( nature of the MOS..).. someone coming at me with a weapon means very little.. if i am armed i can group shots where ever i want them ( double tap.. anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice..)


I did alot of that too. I still do CQB on Saturdays (sometimes). Good skills to learn although. I cannot keep up with my pistol training I would be pissed if I got stabbed though.

[scumdog]

I did alot of that too. I still do CQB on Saturdays (sometimes). Good skills to learn although. I cannot keep up with my pistol training I would be pissed if I got stabbed though.

I just threaten them with a clean pair of heels (and before manuboy has a go at me: no, not 4" spikes with red patent-leather uppers, it's running shoes I'm talking about:msn-wink: )

[scumdog]

I've found the Glock to be as reliable as the dawn, some of the other names like the P38 and the P08 are a bit unreliable with less than optimum ammo.
But your right about the grip angle on a Glock - night shooting takes some thinking about so that you don't end up putting bullets at the stars.

But look at the magazine capacity!!:yes: :D :2guns:

[Wolf]

I've found the Glock to be as reliable as the dawn, some of the other names like the P38 and the P08 are a bit unreliable with less than optimum ammo.
But your right about the grip angle on a Glock - night shooting takes some thinking about so that you don't end up putting bullets at the stars.

But look at the magazine capacity!!:yes: :D :2guns:
Some of the P-38s were very unreliable, especially those made during the War. Post-War P1's (pretty much identical) were much more reliable - as to be expected from Walther GmBH. And, yes, at 8 rounds the magazine sucked.

The modern P99 has a 16-round capacity (cf the Glock 17's 19 rounds), no external hammer, double action semi-auto with a shit-load of inbuilt safeties, decocking lever, pretty much ambidextrous.

I prefer its fit to the Glock but the Glock is a bloody fine weapon. I'd just prefer not to have to hold my hand in an uncomfortable position in order to fire it. Bad enough at a human-sized target, so much worse when aiming at a tiny bullseye...

[Macktheknife]

I found the Sig226 a good one but a tad heavy for daily use, the Glock17 is my personal favourite when you have to carry one for a 12 hour shift, day after day.
My team had a required minimum of 100 rnds/month to be considered for duty, had to be signed off every week. You dont ever want to be thinking "shit if only I had....." when you actually need to hit something quick.