This stumped me

[Sniper]

I have spent alot of my life around guns and spent a while in the Army as a Sniper but I just got asked a question from a fellow employee who is slightly sad and has most the day to think up stupid questions like these.

"Would bullets still be called rounds if they were square?"

Now to my knowledge, a bullet is a "round" because in the colonial wars thats how they were molded. As round lead balls.

Your thoughts please.

[Colapop]

maybe they'd be called bullets or caps or leadthingysthatcomeoutoftheendofguns or something?

[onearmedbandit]

No, we would say things like 'how many squares you got left?' and 'I pumped 3 squares into his head'.

[scumdog]

Of course just to add to the confusion there is also the 'tround' as used in the Dardick revolver from the 1800's:blink: :doh:

[Karma]

Your thoughts please.

The question is academic... bullets will never be square because physics says it's a bad idea.

Tell this guy to do something productive, like search for pictures of naked women.

[bugjuice]

i always thought it had something to do with the round barrels on the ol' 6-shooter pistols.. if you can find out whenn the term was started to be commonly used, and find out the weapon of choice for that era, then you'd get a good idea..

[ManDownUnder]

I have to admit I'd always thought of a "round" as a complete cycle - as in a round of golf... rounders etc...

Load, fire, eject - a complete round?!?

Good q though

[bugjuice]

Load, fire, eject - a complete round?!?
dirty bugger, no wonder girls don't call you back

[scumdog]

And then there's the waiting for the pub to open thing - when you're hanging a-round.:lol:

[ManDownUnder]

dirty bugger, no wonder girls don't call you back

So why do YOU keep calling - I don't pose a committment threat huh?

[jrandom]

This (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=r&p=19) dates the first use of 'round' in terms of a single shot from a firearm back to 'about 1725'.

Also: 'Meaning "quantity of liquor served to a company at one time" is from 1633; that of "single bout in a fight or boxing match" is from 1812.'

I suspect that 'round' in terms of a shot from a firearm is just a specialisation of a general term indicating a unit of something. One round of boxing, one round of ammunition - or, more correctly, one round's worth of ammunition.

I think the more correct use of the word 'round' is to refer to the shot itself, as fired, rather than the piece of ammunition used.

But I'm just guessing, here.

[Waylander]

This (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=r&p=19) dates the first use of 'round' in terms of a single shot from a firearm back to 'about 1725'.

Also: 'Meaning "quantity of liquor served to a company at one time" is from 1633; that of "single bout in a fight or boxing match" is from 1812.'

I suspect that 'round' in terms of a shot from a firearm is just a specialisation of a general term indicating a unit of something. One round of boxing, one round of ammunition - or, more correctly, one round's worth of ammunition.

I think the more correct use of the word 'round' is to refer to the shot itself, as fired, rather than the piece of ammunition used.

But I'm just guessing, here.
Wich rounds up to saying about the same thing as MDU said with this :


Load, fire, eject - a complete round?!?

[SARGE]

could be cuz of the shape of the hole it leaves?

[phaedrus]

The question is academic... bullets will never be square because physics says it's a bad idea.

it still didn't stop them from trying
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puckle_Gun

[Sniper]

could be cuz of the shape of the hole it leaves?

I reckon thats the best answer I have heard in a long time. :2thumbsup

Thanks for all the other good suggestions guys.

[bugjuice]

So why do YOU keep calling - I don't pose a committment threat huh?
cos it's funny to call you at 2am and listen to you 'talk dirty' to yer missus.. hope she gets turned on by it..

[ManDownUnder]

cos it's funny to call you at 2am and listen to you 'talk dirty' to yer missus.. hope she gets turned on by it..

That dirty talk is directed at you..

"tell the bleepin' bleepity bleep so stop bleepin' calling at 2 o'clock in the bleepin morning. One more bleepin time and I'll cut his bleepin' bollocks off"

[Biff]

Bullets have to be round. They rotate in the barrell. Helps them travel further. Then there's the issue of drag v air resistance associated with objects with sharp corners travelling through the air etc.

[scumdog]

Bullets have to be round. They rotate in the barrell. Helps them travel further. Then there's the issue of drag v air resistance associated with objects with sharp corners travelling through the air etc.

See post #4, those 'trounds' are 'trilingular' (Spike Milligan speak for triangular) in cross section!!

[Lou Girardin]

There was a square 'round' for a rifle developed in the 19th century.
It was designed for use on heathens who didn't deserve to die from white mans bullets.

[WRT]

Bullets have to be round. They rotate in the barrell. Helps them travel further. Then there's the issue of drag v air resistance associated with objects with sharp corners travelling through the air etc.

Dunno if it helps them travel further, but they rotate to help them stay accurate. Dunno the physics behind it, but a guess would be that if the bullet is imperfect, then if its rotating then the imperfections would then cause equal drag in all directions. Also, it could have something to do with it causing a gyroscopic effect, similar to what helps us buggers stay upright on two wheels.

The rotation is caused by scoring on the inside of the bore, called rifling (hence the term "rifle").

Anyone care to confirm/deny?

[justsomeguy]

Dunno if it helps them travel further, but they rotate to help them stay accurate. Dunno the physics behind it, but a guess would be that if the bullet is imperfect, then if its rotating then the imperfections would then cause equal drag in all directions. Also, it could have something to do with it causing a gyroscopic effect, similar to what helps us buggers stay upright on two wheels.

The rotation is caused by scoring on the inside of the bore, called rifling (hence the term "rifle").

Anyone care to confirm/deny?

When cannons first shot lead balls the only thing that could be predicted about their accuracy to the target was that the balls would move in a forward direction.

Later on some genius decided that by elongating the balls they would cut through the air a bit better, they did but accuracy wasn't that greatly improved.

Until another genius figured out that spinning the projectile keeps it going a lot straighter.

The scoring of barrels was first done to the barrels of very early cannons.

This caused the projectiles to spin as they came out and gave them a greater firing range and greater accuracy - by spinning at a very high speed they sort of stay on course for a longer duration. Gyroscopic forces or something.......

Sniper -did your sniper rifles have those spiral indentations inside the barrel??

[Grizz]

In the Navy (reserve) we never referred to them as rounds, to us a round was a round of drinks :drinknsin, a bullet was just that a bullet.

[idb]

Sniper, this guy is seriously boring - don't get sucked into his vortex.
Oh no...it's too late...quick...grab my hand.......................!

[scumdog]

And then there is the issue of cut vs swaged vs forged rifling, of course then there is the argument of micro-groove rifling vs just 5 lands and grooves.....oh and did you know that in WW2 there were 303s with just two grooves???? the ball is in you court idb to add to this fascinating subject....:lol:

[idb]

And then there is the issue of cut vs swaged vs forged rifling, of course then there is the argument of micro-groove rifling vs just 5 lands and grooves.....oh and did you know that in WW2 there were 303s with just two grooves???? the ball is in you court idb to add to this fascinating subject....:lol:
must.......break.......free..........

[Hitcher]

And then there's the Beach Boys...

I'm gettin' bugged driving up and down the same old strip
I gotta finda new place where the kids are hip

My buddies and me are getting real well known
Yeah, the bad guys know us and they leave us alone

[idb]

losing.............my...............grip.......... ...........

[Karma]

losing.............my...............grip.......... ...........

A rather excellent Avril Lavigne track, the music video to which is quite intoxicating.

[idb]

aaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!

[Ixion]

When cannons first shot lead balls the only thing that could be predicted about their accuracy to the target was that the balls would move in a forward direction.

Later on some genius decided that by elongating the balls they would cut through the air a bit better, they did but accuracy wasn't that greatly improved.

Until another genius figured out that spinning the projectile keeps it going a lot straighter.

The scoring of barrels was first done to the barrels of very early cannons.

This caused the projectiles to spin as they came out and gave them a greater firing range and greater accuracy - by spinning at a very high speed they sort of stay on course for a longer duration. Gyroscopic forces or something.......

Sniper -did your sniper rifles have those spiral indentations inside the barrel??


Cannon (and carronades) very rarely if ever shot lead balls. Stone (common in the East, especially Turkey, or iron. Very occasionally bronze in small bores.

The ball was not elongated until after the introduction of rifling, since an elongated form in a smoothbore would tumble end over end in flight.

Rifling was first introduced in pistols around C17. Very expensive with the grooves cut by hand. Impractical for cannon until the C19 invention of the modern form of shell with a band to engage the grooves, and machinery to cut the grooves (imagine grooving a cannon by hand!)

[Indiana_Jones]

a fellow employee who is slightly sad and has most the day to think up stupid questions like these.

"Would bullets still be called rounds if they were square?"


<img src="http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/IST/IST171/BP1902.JPG" align="centre" vspace="10" hspace="10">

GOT TIME?

I WANNA LOVE YOU BUT I BETTER NOT TOUCH!

-Indy

[What?]

Cannon (and carronades) very rarely if ever shot lead balls. Stone (common in the East, especially Turkey, or iron. Very occasionally bronze in small bores.

The ball was not elongated until after the introduction of rifling, since an elongated form in a smoothbore would tumble end over end in flight.

Absolutely correct. The first rifling was done by hand, but it was quickly realised that this method was incompatible with the human desire to kill as many of his neighbours as possible in the shortest possible time, so mechanised methods were developed.
The term "round" indeed relates to the load and fire cycle. Stems from the days of match lock muskets and cannons. Even now, strictly speaking, the term has the same meaning, but has an eject phase added.

[spudchucka]

Two gun threads in one week, love it. Who was it that said the liked KB because there were never any gun threads? Kinda jinxed the place perhaps.

[Sniper]

Sniper -did your sniper rifles have those spiral indentations inside the barrel??
Yep, definetly. I can confirm that because of the idiot I once knew who looked down the barrel of my rifle while I was setting up for the range.

[Sniper]

Two gun threads in one week, love it. Who was it that said the liked KB because there were never any gun threads? Kinda jinxed the place perhaps.

Its makes KB a happier place when we get to talk about the wonders that are firearms and their ballistics.

[Sniper]

Sniper, this guy is seriously boring - don't get sucked into his vortex.

Fuck mate, the amount of shit this guy talks, Im amazed he hit 30 :eyepoke: Still, I have to work with him so ........

[scumdog]

Absolutely correct. The first rifling was done by hand, but it was quickly realised that this method was incompatible with the human desire to kill as many of his neighbours as possible in the shortest possible time, so mechanised methods were developed.
The term "round" indeed relates to the load and fire cycle. Stems from the days of match lock muskets and cannons. Even now, strictly speaking, the term has the same meaning, but has an eject phase added.

I bet that idb is just fair salivating and rubbing his hands together as all this exciting information flows in.......:innocent: :whistle: :msn-wink: eh Ian??

Keep it coming guys!!

[scumdog]

Just to add to the joy that idb is experiencing right now I thought I'd post this fascinating piece of information, oh the bliss of the modern websites!

"The Dardick weapons family comprises a series of handgun and carbine models which
were designed the revolutionary "tround" concept of ammunition." ...
www.wapahani.com/pistols2.html -

I bet you joy knows no bounds on reading THIS information eh??:wait: :lol: :killingme

[Sniper]

I bet you joy knows no bounds on reading THIS information eh??:wait: :lol: :killingme

You never know, this information may come in handy when you have a drunken quiz night one day. :killingme

[idb]

Oh yes, uh huh, very enlightening.
Pardon me while I pop over to see what's happening on the "Should I have a pee before getting on my bike or wait 'til I get home" thread............could be something good going on that I'm missing.

[kro]

Tell this guy to do something productive, like search for pictures of naked women.


Weasel speaks wisdom, listen to him.

[idb]

Weasel speaks wisdom, listen to him.
It's going off in the other thread - don't waste your time here.

[scumdog]

Oh yes, uh huh, very enlightening.
Pardon me while I pop over to see what's happening on the "Should I have a pee before getting on my bike or wait 'til I get home" thread............could be something good going on that I'm missing.

See, you looked at the other thread and it was worse, - should have stayed here and lern't summat, I mean when the fuzzy-wuzzies hordes come over the horizon and you can't get you Brown Bess loaded and you forgot to order trounds instead of rounds for your Dardick...where ya going t' be then?? In big trouble!! - JUST because you didn't stay on this thread:doh:

[idb]

See, you looked at the other thread and it was worse, - should have stayed here and lern't summat, I mean when the fuzzy-wuzzies hordes come over the horizon and you can't get you Brown Bess loaded and you forgot to order trounds instead of rounds for your Dardick...where ya going t' be then?? In big trouble!! - JUST because you didn't stay on this thread:doh:
You present a compelling case SD - must be the legal training.
Still, I think we've really got something going in the other thread.
Also, it might change as I get older but my Dardick is always loaded.........

[DingDong]

The Navy boys & girls should know there are currently tumbling rounds for punching holes in in armour plating, which is rectangular... I dont know what they call them but I'd call them rounds (even tho they're not round)

But what eva:moon:

[Sniper]

Sabot?

I don't see how a tumbling round would carry enough energy to punch through armour plating

[DingDong]

Sabot?

I don't see how a tumbling round would carry enough energy to punch through armour plating

Sorry... its a high caliber (sp?) deck gun on war ships

[Sniper]

Sorry... its a high caliber (sp?) deck gun on war ships

Oh, sorry, see what you mean now. Those big 12.5 will fuck you up big time if they land close to you. (Heard from a reliable source)

[NordieBoy]

Then there's the issue of drag v air resistance associated with objects with sharp corners travelling through the air etc.

And still Kawasaki makes bikes with sharp edges...

[idb]

And still Kawasaki makes bikes with sharp edges...
Brilliant!!!!
You brought the thread round to bikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hitcher]

DU knocks a reasonably decent hole in most armour known to man. Especially when thrown from a 120mm smooth bore or, preferably, a rifled 120mm L30 CHARM.

[Skyryder]

"Would bullets still be called rounds if they were square?"

Your thoughts please.

Sounds like a bit of lateral thinking's gone into the question.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

And then there's the waiting for the pub to open thing - when you're hanging a-round.:lol:

Or its time to shout for you round.

Is this still a kiwi tradition or did it die a slow death with the 6 o'clock swill?

Skyryder

[scumdog]

Or its time to shout for you round.

Is this still a kiwi tradition or did it die a slow death with the 6 o'clock swill?

Skyryder

No, you can still shout a round (Export thanks) but the 6 o'clock swill died 'round' about the mid 60's (any pedant put an exact date on the end of the 6 o'clock swill?)

[MikeL]

Since I'm not a pedant I can't give a precise date, but from memory it was about 1967 I think.

[sAsLEX]

Sabot?



not a tumbling round but a fuckin fast round of hard shit that uses its immense kinetic energy to travel through armour




Oh, sorry, see what you mean now. Those big 12.5 will fuck you up big time if they land close to you. (Heard from a reliable source)


No one uses them anymore, if you are talking about the big 12.5 inch 16 inch guns etc

the good old day of battleships like the missouri are gone, where the main guns threw rounds the size and weight of minis 30 odd k and the ships would leap a few feet sideways on a broadside, last used in battle in the Gulf conflict

replaced with more accurate longer range faster 5 inch weapons that with special rounds can reach 100 odd ks and then there is missiles and aircraft that make the modern Navy so much more powerful

[Ixion]

See, you looked at the other thread and it was worse, - should have stayed here and lern't summat, I mean when the fuzzy-wuzzies hordes come over the horizon and you can't get you Brown Bess loaded ..

Tch tch man. The Brown bess was long obsolete by the time anyone was fighting Fuzzy Wuzzy. Martini-Henry maybe, or Snider on the other side.

[scumdog]

Tch tch man. The Brown bess was long obsolete by the time anyone was fighting Fuzzy Wuzzy. Martini-Henry maybe, or Snider on the other side.

I know but it makes a good yarn - and I bet idb DIDN'T know up until now:killingme

That's if he ever comes back to this thread!

[Kickaha]

not a tumbling round but a fuckin fast round of hard shit that uses its immense kinetic energy to travel through armour


They started using Tungsten in WW2 and depleted uranium was used in the Gulf War

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m829a1.htm

[froggyfrenchman]

I guess its just one of lifes great mysterys. Wahts is the meaning of life, oh yeah... and would square bullets still be called rounds.

[Pixie]

Its makes KB a happier place when we get to talk about the wonders that are firearms and their ballistics.
A Bally Stick is wot Benson-Pope prefered.
And that's it.
Lock,stock and barrel



PS "lock and load" is out of sequence.

[Pixie]

Then there's the issue of drag v air resistance associated with objects with sharp corners travelling through the air etc.
There are exceptions:the Russians have a flat nosed torpedo that exceeds 300 kmh in water.The flat nose causes cavitation so there is no drag on the body of the torpedo as it is not in contact with the water.
The US is looking to use the same technology to allow a bunker buster to penetrate 100m of rock.

[idb]

There are exceptions:the Russians have a flat nosed torpedo that exceeds 300 kmh in water.The flat nose causes cavitation so there is no drag on the body of the torpedo as it is not in contact with the water.
The US is looking to use the same technology to allow a bunker buster to penetrate 100m of rock.
So why can't a fatty like me ride faster than my skinny mates.....?

[sAsLEX]

There are exceptions:the Russians have a flat nosed torpedo that exceeds 300 kmh in water.The flat nose causes cavitation so there is no drag on the body of the torpedo as it is not in contact with the water.
The US is looking to use the same technology to allow a bunker buster to penetrate 100m of rock.

I think the flat nose is not the only reason that it cavitates but the fact that exhaust gases from the engine are pumped into the void in front of the projectile.

[Ixion]

I think the flat nose is not the only reason that it cavitates but the fact that exhaust gases from the engine are pumped into the void in front of the projectile.



So why can't a fatty like me ride faster than my skinny mates.....?


Hm. So for a fatty to ride faster, it is necessary to pump fatty's exhaust gases in front of the projectile. Hm. Lez see . We need a fat rider , Metre of plastic tubing, LOTS of beans. Then we could be looking a a world speed record !

[jrandom]

There are exceptions:the Russians have a flat nosed torpedo that exceeds 300 kmh in water.The flat nose causes cavitation so there is no drag on the body of the torpedo as it is not in contact with the water.

Mmm hmm. The 'Skvall', if my memory serves me correctly. I believe it's referred to as 'supercavitation', since the cavitation bubble at that speed actually extends right past the rear of the torpedo. It's rocket-propelled.

It's not zero drag, of course, but you get to replace the drag of a metal body against water with the drag of an air bubble, which is significantly less.

Of course, the main problem with the Skvall is that as soon as it gets clear of the launch tube and the engine starts, it can be heard for miles and miles around, so it's a 'sneak up, let rip and run like hell' kinda weapon.

The Murkns seem to prefer the 'slow and quiet' design approach.

Have to admit though, there's a certain coolness factor to taking out the other guy's sub with a 300kph rocket-propelled torpedo.

[sAsLEX]

Mmm hmm. The 'Skvall', if my memory serves me correctly. I believe it's referred to as 'supercavitation', since the cavitation bubble at that speed actually extends right past the rear of the torpedo. It's rocket-propelled.

it can be heard for miles and miles around, so it's a 'sneak up, let rip and run like hell' kinda weapon.

thats why they refer to it as a revenge weapon, fire back at an incoming torpedo with a dirty big nuke in the thing and try blow the incoming torpedo and the sub that fired it


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/shkval.htm

[jrandom]

thats why they refer to it as a revenge weapon...

Ah. Good idea. What'll they think of next, eh?

I'm working with an ex-Russian Navy chap at the moment who was an engineer on a sub for several years in the late 70s/early 80s. Would have been an exciting time, I imagine. I really have to try and get him talking about it. He's not very chatty.


www.fas.org

Good site. Bookmarked.

[sAsLEX]

I really have to try and get him talking about it. He's not very chatty.


Good site. Bookmarked.

hmmm well that era talking to the wrong people bout pretty much anything meant you met an untimely end. Classified stuff can stay classified for ages


Yeah it is very good actually

[scumdog]

Did you know the reason for copper jacket on bullets?
It (partially) holds the bullet in shape when the rifle is fired and when it hits the target but almost as important, it stops the rifling from being 'stripped' as the soft lead is rushed down the barrel, the bullet still gets out of the barrel - but has a shower of lead bits with it (ex-rifling) if the velocity get too fast.


And y'all thought this thread was boring and dead!!:bleh: :lol:

[Sniper]

Never, Im glad you brought that up SD.

So, what is the purpous of a teflon coated bullet and does it still have a copper jacket? :whistle: First correct answer gets bling.

[sAsLEX]

Did you know the reason for copper jacket on bullets?

but wait theres more

A full metal jacket bullet (or FMJ) is a bullet that is encased in a copper-coated steel or gilding metal jacket. The jacket prevents deformation of the bullet in the barrel or feed mechanism due to dirt, overpressures or damage outside the gun. This reduces misfires. The jacket also prevents fragmentation, and the coating helps prevent damage to the gun barrel.

FMJ ammunition was introduced ostensibly for humanitarian reasons, as the Hague Convention of 1899 prohibits the use of expanding or fragmenting bullets in warfare. (It is commonly but incorrectly stated that this prohibition is in the Geneva Conventions.)

They have the advantage in warfare that they often injure their target rather than kill outright, creating a casualty that needs to be cared for, but not a corpse. In this way, FMJ bullets can be more effective at consuming an enemy's resources than fragmenting bullets, yet the outcome for the victim is usually the same: death (or at least long-term removal from the field of battle, which is close to equivalent in military terms). Furthermore, because the bullet does not expand, FMJ bullets are much more effective at armor-piercing than hollow point bullets.

Most State Wildlife agencies prohibit the use of FMJ bullets in hunting.

[scumdog]

Never, Im glad you brought that up SD.

So, what is the purpous of a teflon coated bullet and does it still have a copper jacket? :whistle: First correct answer gets bling.

Well, it's NOT to make it go through bullet-proof jackets... I'll let somebody else finish the answers and enlighten us properly!!

[sAsLEX]

Never, Im glad you brought that up SD.

So, what is the purpous of a teflon coated bullet and does it still have a copper jacket? :whistle: First correct answer gets bling.
snipers use them to defeat body armour

edit: damn scum !!!!

and from http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/copkill.html : Their original KTW bullet centered around a case-hardened steel core. Even at standard velocities, this core would obviously hold its shape and drill through automobiles, cinder blocks and other materials likely to defeat conventional police handgun loads. This was literally the core of the solution, but presented difficulties. The hard core would not take rifling and would ruin the bore. A gliding-metal jacket with full teflon coating took care of this. The round gave good penetration but poor accuracy at long range.

[idb]

Did you know the reason for copper jacket on bullets?
It (partially) holds the bullet in shape when the rifle is fired and when it hits the target but almost as important, it stops the rifling from being 'stripped' as the soft lead is rushed down the barrel, the bullet still gets out of the barrel - but has a shower of lead bits with it (ex-rifling) if the velocity get too fast.

I just thought the copper jacket was a marketing thing.
Would you rather walk down the street with a full ammo belt round your waist (or even cooler - twin bandoliers over your shoulders) full of boring grey lead bullets or bling copper-coloured ones.


And y'all thought this thread was boring and dead!!
I never thought it was dead.

[Sniper]

snipers use them to defeat body armour

edit: damn scum !!!!



I carried teflons once, too heavy for my liking and also, when we were shooting at up to 400m we training to hit a head. You aim for the body at furthur distances, but the idea was one shot, one kill.

[sAsLEX]

I carried teflons once, too heavy for my liking and also, when we were shooting at up to 400m we training to hit a head. You aim for the body at furthur distances, but the idea was one shot, one kill.

one of the stats I personally love is the kill ratios of certain units to rounds expended in Vietnam.

Most of your standard 9 min grunts or however long they averaged on the ground needed thousands of rounds per kill, where Snipers were a little over 1 shot per kill

and a good sniper can be so demorallising *sp* to a whole company/rabble!

[Sniper]

Most of your standard 9 min grunts or however long they averaged on the ground needed thousands of rounds per kill, where Snipers were a little over 1 shot per kill

and a good sniper can be so demorallising *sp* to a whole company/rabble!

I know what you mean, 5 well placed shots onto certain officers in a battalion can effectivly stop an advance and scare the shit outta people. I never got to do it though.

[sAsLEX]

I know what you mean, 5 well placed shots onto certain officers in a battalion can effectivly stop an advance and scare the shit outta people. I never got to do it though.

not even the officers, put a deadly fear into the soldiers and then they wont be too keen to go running about!

Gallipoli was a good use of snipers, and also showded innovation from those under fire ( the ANZACs and their mirror rifles), where because of the ?turks? elevated/good sniper positions the ANZACs were forced into trenches and tunnels to fight the battle. Which meant harsh living conditions etc which put soldiers out of commision with the shits alone rather than battle wounds etc

[Sniper]

I haven't read much on Gallipoli, so its interesting to know about it. I can imagine how demoralising it is when you are in shit filled drains.

[Waylander]

one shot, one kill.
Sniper, was decent. Sniper 2 was crap. And Sniper three.... WTF were they thinking?!?!

[sAsLEX]

I haven't read much on Gallipoli, so its interesting to know about it. I can imagine how demoralising it is when you are in shit filled drains.

Watched a doco on the war channel on sky, oh I think its actually called the history channel oh well, and it was amazing the amount of tunnelling done there since they were dead if they were above ground. Some of the battles were actually fought underground as they tunnelled there way from trench to trench, sometimes hitting turk tunnels and fighting under the ground. Some very brave men!

would love to go there and see it and hopefully do that when go I go to the UK in 07 for some training

[Sniper]

Watched a doco on the war channel on sky, oh I think its actually called the history channel oh well, and it was amazing the amount of tunnelling done there since they were dead if they were above ground. Some of the battles were actually fought underground as they tunnelled there way from trench to trench, sometimes hitting turk tunnels and fighting under the ground. Some very brave men!

would love to go there and see it and hopefully do that when go I go to the UK in 07 for some training

Hell yea. I have read up and seen bits about the tunnel rats in vietnam. Bloody brave buggers they were. Not too much related to Gallipoli as the VC were the only ones underground, but I can imagine when you were happily tunneling along and you meet a pissed off turk with a knife changes your outlook significantly.

[idb]

I've read quite a bit on Gallipoli.
Get hold of a guy Pugsley's "New Zealanders at Gallipoli in their own words" (or a similar title).
It'll blow you away what they put up with and bring tears to your eyes.

[Hitcher]

and a good sniper can be so demorallising *sp* to a whole company/rabble!
As the Germans found out in Stalingrad where Russian snipers only killed officers.