one last hug

[WINJA]

:cry:
HE KNEW THE CONSEQUENCES OF SMUGGLING DRUGS , WHY IS THERE AN OUTCRY ABOUT THIS GUY GETTING HUNG , HES GETTING WHAT HE DESERVES, I HAVE NO SYPATHY AND HOPE HE ROTS IN HELL . THE AMOUNT OF DRUGS HE HAD COULD BE DIVIDED INTO 1000S OF HITS , PEOPLE STEAL AND MURDER FOR THIS SHIT AND HIS ACTIONS WOULD EFFECT 1000S OF INNOCENT PEOPLE . FUCK THE HUG , I WOULDNT GIVE HIM THE STEAM OFF MY SHIT

[2much]

Too fucken right!

Sad that we live in this tree hugging, flower power, hippie loving, cry baby, soft cock, love your brother, politically correct, bullshit world......... when will the pharmacy start selling 'HARDEN THE FUCK UP' pills??? I know a few pansys who need them.

[Badcat]

when you go through singapore airport you can't help seeing the "death to drug smugglers" signs.
he had a POUND of heroin. it's not a "mistake" or "personal use".
what is it with people saying "you can't apply your laws to me, i'm an australian, american" etc?
you're in the country, you abide by their laws.
smuggle drugs in singapore - get caught - die like a dog.
sorry pal.

[sunhuntin]

im with you winja. he [and the others like him] know the penalties, so why try and challenge them? if only new zealand had a penalty the same. my brother got busted for growing and possession and weed. hes now out on home detention, when all the things ive seen of him, he deserves years in prison.

[froggyfrenchman]

That bastard deserves a slower, crueler way of dying! I think that he should have a toe cut off each day, and then his fingers. Small lumps of arms and legs. just a little more unbearable pain each day. Keep him alive to enjoy it i say

[NotaGoth]

Bling has been awarded.

[WINJA]

That bastard deserves a slower, crueler way of dying! I think that he should have a toe cut off each day, and then his fingers. Small lumps of arms and legs. just a little more unbearable pain each day. Keep him alive to enjoy it i say
NAH , THAT PUNISHMENT SHOULD ONLY BE FOR KIDDY FIDDLERS AND RAPISTS, I JUST DONT THINK THIS GUY SHOULD GET SPECIAL TREATMENT , IT WOULD SEND A BAD MESSAGE

[froggyfrenchman]

thinkn bout it, youre right. He is a scum sucking bastard though!

[Sniper]

He deserves everything he gets. I think it is a wee bit unfair on his mum that she can not hug him one last time. He deserves the pain though, but she doesn't.

[What?]

Dunno what's going on here, but this is the second time I've had to agree with you now, WINJA.
Should do it here with the P makers / dealers.

[Zed]

If idiotic people go into those countries and commit such crimes knowing that they could get the death penalty, then that's their decision and risk so if they get caught they suffer the consequences. Not allowing a last kiss from his mother is animalistic.

Now you particular peeps, if he was captured in New Zealand and punnished under our system, would you still be crying out to kill him?

[scumdog]

If idiotic people go into those countries and commit such crimes knowing that they could get the death penalty, then that's their decision and risk so if they get caught they suffer the consequences. Not allowing a last kiss from his mother is animalistic.

Now you particular peeps, if he was captured in New Zealand and punnished under our system, would you still be crying out to kill him?

Yep, along with a shitload of others, plenty of so called humans I would be happy to see popped-off:yes:

[zadok]

If idiotic people go into those countries and commit such crimes knowing that they could get the death penalty, then that's their decision and risk so if they get caught they suffer the consequences. Not allowing a last kiss from his mother is animalistic.

Now you particular peeps, if he was captured in New Zealand and punnished under our system, would you still be crying out to kill him?
I think you answered your own question in the first paragraph, Matthew. I think its only because of where the crime was committed, the comment has been made.

[SARGE]

Yep, along with a shitload of others, plenty of so called humans I would be happy to see popped-off:yes:



Lawyers..hippies..the Back Street Boys.. Helen Clarke's Stylist..

[Zed]

I think you answered your own question in the first paragraph, Matthew. I think its only because of where the crime was committed, the comment has been made.Yeah, it's just interesting to me to see how kiwis are condemning this guy, when WE live under such a lackadaisical justice system. Did ya hear that guy only got 5 years for that hammer attack, here in NZ today!

[Sniper]

Helen Clarke's Stylist..

And the thing they style..........:bash:

[SARGE]

And the thing they style..........:bash:


her dentist.. hairstylist... speechwriter..

[Suney]

Hmm guess I'm the only who disagrees.
Reckon the death penalty should apply to murdererss and sexual predators.
Hmm oh well.
Please no red bling people :D

[MikeL]

:cry:
WHY IS THERE AN OUTCRY ABOUT THIS GUY GETTING HUNG


There are some deeds so abominable, some crimes so horrendous that no punishment is too awful.

Using "hung" when you mean "hanged" is one of them.

Examples of correct usage:

"I hung the picture on the wall."
"I'm well hung."
"You should be hanged for crimes against the English language."

[NotaGoth]

Death penalty should apply to muderers and sexual predators. I agree there. There has been many times I have heard about people who have only recieved 17 years or so, for brutal killings. Absolutely disguisting!

[Pixie]

Lawyers..hippies..the Back Street Boys.. Helen Clarke's Stylist..
....Helen clark

[NotaGoth]

Again it goes back to the fact that the guy knew what the consequences for his actions were.


EDIT: err.. post was removed.. my bad..

[SixPackBack]

You lot are forgeting something, the hug is for mum not the son. She is every bit a victim as well through her son's stupidty
Let him swing and let mum have a cuddle.

[Zed]

Matt, what if it was your family that was at the receiving end of a robbery or killing for the money to buy the drugs this guy is peddaling? Or even the drugs themselves? And if you say that your family would not be invovled in the taking of drugs, fair comment. But my family wouldnt smuggle them, so my view stands.Sorry Glen, I withdrew that comment, didn't want to be contentious.

[NotaGoth]

You lot are forgeting something, the hug is for mum not the son. She is every bit a victim as well through her son's stupidty
Let him swing and let mum have a cuddle.


How bout let her cuddle while he swings...? I mean...


Oh well.. News is she gets to hold his hand..

[limbimtimwim]

THE AMOUNT OF DRUGS HE HAD COULD BE DIVIDED INTO 1000S OF HITS , PEOPLE STEAL AND MURDER FOR THIS SHIT AND HIS ACTIONS WOULD EFFECT 1000S OF INNOCENT PEOPLE . FUCK THE HUG , I WOULDNT GIVE HIM THE STEAM OFF MY SHITOr if drugs were legal, then we could make our own mistakes instead of nanny state protecting us from evil drugs. Then people wouldn't be stealing and murdering for it, they'd buy it from a shop. All GSTd and quality controlled like food. Death penalty or not, drugs are there, so it's not an effective deterrant or punishment. I betcha some auzzie is walking through Changi right now with something punishible by death. I don't think anyone should die for a crime unless it's murder, or attempted murder in some cases. It makes the assumption that people cannot improve and try and fix up their fucked up lives.

[Zed]

Thats fine Matt, you are entitled to your opinion mate, as am I. Nothing wrong with disagreeing on something. Hence the discussion.Ok. I think we both agree that he deserves his punnishment. So where do you stand on the kiss? :blink:

[The_Dover]

and sexual predators.
:D

That's me fucked then!

But seriously, do you know how much money that cunt cost me. That skag wasn't cheap and now the slant eyed pigs are all getting fucked up on my stash....

Bastards.

[NotaGoth]

Or if drugs were legal, then we could make our own mistakes instead of nanny state protecting us from evil drugs. Then people wouldn't be stealing and murdering for it, they'd buy it from a shop. All GSTd and quality controlled like food. Death penalty or not, drugs are there, so it's not an effective deterrant or punishment. I betcha some auzzie is walking through Changi right now with something punishible by death. I don't think anyone should die for a crime unless it's murder, or attempted murder in some cases. It makes the assumption that people cannot improve and try and fix up their fucked up lives.


Drugs are killing people and people taking drugs are killing people. The supplier/smuggler is just as bad as the person taking the drugs.


EDIT: Still stand by the guys punishment. He did it fully knowing the consequences of his actions. As much as I feel for the mother, why should he be granted anything?

[SPman]

If only the Singaporean Government werent so fucking hypocritical - they hang the small time traffickers - crying "setting an example" - and cuddle up to the big time drug lords who push Billions of dollars of this shit through the Golden Triangle and Burma, laundering the money through Singaporean connections!.
The Singaporean Government is NOT lily white in all this! - just another bunch of hypocritical, posturing arseholes, who do one thing to the small time person with no power, making an example to the world at large, to gain brownie points from baying bands of holier than thou citizens, and being party to vast amounts of the same traffic, because there is money to be made and hiding behind the facade of a strong, anti drug, government!
And, as usual, ALL the small people at the bottom of the pile get shafted!

[NotaGoth]

"Allowed"



As I said before though, apparently his mother has been granted the right to hold his hand. But no hugs are to be exchanged.

[WINJA]

You lot are forgeting something, the hug is for mum not the son. She is every bit a victim as well through her son's stupidty
Let him swing and let mum have a cuddle.
HOW MANY DRUG USERS WHO DIED FROM AN OD GOT TO GIVE THEIR MUM A LAST HUG , I KNOW THEIR DRUG USERS BUT THEY ARE SOMETIMES PREYED ON BY DEALERS WHO GIVE THEM FREE SAMPLES ETC , HARD DRUGS ARE AN EPIDEMIC IN AUSSIE

[oldrider]

His mum should be allowed a kiss but he can kiss my, err WINJA'S arse'!
He knew the concequences but he still chose to take the risk.
Freedom is the right to choose and to face the risk of getting it right/wrong, then you face the concequences of your actions.
He will face his tomorrow. :doh: RIP. I have no problem with that, John.:yes:

[Badcat]

I don't think anyone should die for a crime unless it's murder, or attempted murder in some cases. It makes the assumption that people cannot improve and try and fix up their fucked up lives.

neither do i - but he wasn't here or in australia.
he was in singapore, and singaporean law says death for drug trafficking..
do you think their laws shouldn't apply to him because he's an aussie?
i think they should.


k

[limbimtimwim]

Drugs are killing people and people taking drugs are killing people. The supplier/smuggler is just as bad as the person taking the drugs.Ahh bollux. Define drugs. You mean that P crap that turns people into cabbages? Or weed? If I decide this weekend to have a spin on H does that make me as bad as a murderer? If I rolled right up to your house right now with some coke, and you tried it, are you worthy of a swing from the neck too?

How about if you sold some weed to your friends?

Sorry, just what you said sounds like it came from CNN..

[avgas]

he didnt look austrailian :bash: wonder when he got his passport. He may have immigrated from there in the first place

[limbimtimwim]

neither do i - but he wasn't here or in australia.
he was in singapore, and singaporean law says death for drug trafficking..
do you think their laws shouldn't apply to him because he's an aussie?
i think they should.Oh yeah, he's in Singapore, he does not deserve special treatment because he is an auzzie. Howard appears to be a total wimp, but he's between a rock and a hard place. Which is generally where fat slugs squirm best anyway.

[The_Dover]

do you think their laws shouldn't apply to him because he's an aussie?
i think they should.


I think they should kill him twice for being an aussie. Dirty bastard.

[Indiana_Jones]

Too fucken right!

Sad that we live in this tree hugging, flower power, hippie loving, cry baby, soft cock, love your brother, politically correct, bullshit world......... when will the pharmacy start selling 'HARDEN THE FUCK UP' pills??? I know a few pansys who need them.

I like this guy :D

-Indy

[NotaGoth]

Ahh bollux. Define drugs. You mean that P crap that turns people into cabbages? Or weed? If I decide this weekend to have a spin on H does that make me as bad as a murderer? If I rolled right up to your house right now with some coke, and you tried it, are you worthy of a swing from the neck too?

How about if you sold some weed to your friends?

Sorry, just what you said sounds like it came from CNN..



Makes you stupid. Not worthy of a swing from the neck because firstly I wouldn't try coke. I still stand by the fact that the guy gets what he deserves. After a discussion with someone from auckland about this particular drug not long ago, the guy deserves to swing. He went into the country knowing the consequences of his actions. If I supplied one of my friends or some random with some sort of drug and it killed them I may as well have stabbed them to death. And I will stand by feeling that way about it.

[The_Dover]

Makes you stupid. Not worthy of a swing from the neck because firstly I wouldn't try coke. I still stand by the fact that the guy gets what he deserves. After a discussion with someone from auckland about this particular drug not long ago, the guy deserves to swing. He went into the country knowing the consequences of his actions. If I supplied one of my friends or some random with some sort of drug and it killed them I may as well have stabbed them to death. And I will stand by feeling that way about it.


Oooh, Kittie had a discussion with 'someone from Auckland' about the evils of smack!! Cos it is the scourge of NZ!!

Fuck, if only you could get good opiates in NZ without paying the earth!

Edit: Or coke for that matter!! Three hundy a gram! I hope that came in stuck up someones ass on a first class seat!!

[NotaGoth]

Oooh, Kittie had a discussion with 'someone from Auckland' about the evils of smack!! Cos it is the scourge of NZ!!

Fuck, if only you could get good opiates in NZ without paying the earth!

Edit: Or coke for that matter!! Three hundy a gram! I hope that came in stuck up someones ass on a first class seat!!

Was an interesting enough discussion to put me off trying any of those sorts of drugs. :spudguita

[RantyDave]

Or if drugs were legal ... they'd buy it from a shop. All GSTd and quality controlled like food.
No no, you're missing the point. It would be quality controlled and taxed up to the eyeballs, just like alcohol.

I've never understood why governments don't go for this. Like, hello? I'm willing to be taxed? Besides, imagine what it would do for the tourist industry. A weed-legal New Zealand would make Amsterdam look like a shithole.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic. Heroin? Now that's a different matter. That shit kills people. Nail the bastard to the cross.

Dave

[SPman]

Heroin? Now that's a different matter. That shit kills people. Nail the bastard to the cross.

Dave

Hmmmmmmm - like alcohol, tobacco, P, watching too much Shortland Street and reality TV..........
The list goes on.......

[limbimtimwim]

Makes you stupid. Not worthy of a swing from the neck because firstly I wouldn't try coke. I still stand by the fact that the guy gets what he deserves. After a discussion with someone from auckland about this particular drug not long ago, the guy deserves to swing.Everything in moderation! Just once wouldn't kill you. Having said that, I'd never do H, that's just silly. Getting stupid on drugs is personal choice.
He went into the country knowing the consequences of his actions. If I supplied one of my friends or some random with some sort of drug and it killed them I may as well have stabbed them to death. And I will stand by feeling that way about it.If your friend died, it'd be their own fault, not yours. They vacuumed that stuff up like a supermodel with glee. You can't have this giant circle of responsibility around you. So someone gave you $10 for gas, and you went for a ride and fell off and broke your ankle and ruined you bike, it's their fault? C'mon..

I don't understand this whole 'drugs' thing being right up the top of the crime chain, getting special treatment it frankly doesn't deserve.

Not everyone who has taken drugs has died of it or got stupid. All your favorite musicians have at sometime got quite funky with the fun stuff. Hell, look at the rolling stones. Those fellas are like *preserved* (Badly) by all the shit they have taken, and they are quite possibly the most astute people in the entire industry. You don't have to like their music (It all went downhill after about 1969..) to know they are quite with it.

[idb]

No no, you're missing the point. It would be quality controlled and taxed up to the eyeballs, just like alcohol.

I've never understood why governments don't go for this. Like, hello? I'm willing to be taxed? Besides, imagine what it would do for the tourist industry. A weed-legal New Zealand would make Amsterdam look like a shithole.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic. Heroin? Now that's a different matter. That shit kills people. Nail the bastard to the cross.

Dave
Buddy, you should be in parliament.
What a great way to control the masses.
If all the drugs were legal but manufactured by the state they could be used to adjust the national mood as required;
disappointed about no tax cut? No worries, a bit more THC will help everyone chill out.
need to raise national productivity? A bit of speed to the mix should do the trick.

[Lou Girardin]

So all you 'hang 'em high' types know for a fact that he was aware of the mandatory execution policy? And if he didn't know, what's he supposed to do when he arrives and sees the signs, give himself up?
I think some of you really would benefit by seeing someone actually die. Until then, talk is cheap. (and easy)

[SixPackBack]

Right or wrong the sentence was carried out. The conversation over!

[bugjuice]

may be the two threads should be merged here..

I've said my piece on the other thread. Idiot deserves everything he gets.

[duckman]

So all you 'hang 'em high' types know for a fact that he was aware of the mandatory execution policy? And if he didn't know, what's he supposed to do when he arrives and sees the signs, give himself up?
I think some of you really would benefit by seeing someone actually die. Until then, talk is cheap. (and easy)

Oh come on what retard wouldn't know that drug trafficing = death penalty.

I have to agree with you on seeing people executed ... When I was working in Saudi they had an execution most thursday afternoons in "chop chop square" - Quite graffic to see someones head get lopped off.

[Badcat]

So all you 'hang 'em high' types know for a fact that he was aware of the mandatory execution policy? And if he didn't know, what's he supposed to do when he arrives and sees the signs, give himself up?
I think some of you really would benefit by seeing someone actually die. Until then, talk is cheap. (and easy)

lou.
i've seen 5 people die, probably much less than an active policeman (or even traffic cop). 2 in my arms, one while i tried to staunch her bleeding from a massive head wound. i'm pretty aware of the value of life.
i also have 2 children, so feel for the boys mother.

my point isn't the crime and punishment.
it's that people commit crimes in other countries, then want to be tried in their own countries, or want special treatment because they are a foreigner.
he committed the crime in singapore, he needs to be ready for their laws.
do you not agree?

[scumdog]

So all you 'hang 'em high' types know for a fact that he was aware of the mandatory execution policy? And if he didn't know, what's he supposed to do when he arrives and sees the signs, give himself up?
I think some of you really would benefit by seeing someone actually die. Until then, talk is cheap. (and easy)

Yeah, I've seen people die - and it didn't make my talk any less cheap!

[ducatilover]

Yeah, it's just interesting to me to see how kiwis are condemning this guy, when WE live under such a lackadaisical justice system. Did ya hear that guy only got 5 years for that hammer attack, here in NZ today!
our justice system is not up to it, i know some man in wainui who got put away for attempted murder and got out in three years. wtf? he's a fucken insane bastard [and i broke his sons jaw so]. he should be put away for much longer than that, if only they could do him for the drugs he does the low life chainsaw totting scum:bash:

[ducatilover]

Ahh bollux. Define drugs. You mean that P crap that turns people into cabbages?
i am tempted to bad rep but i wont, i myself have been attacked by a P user.just because i looked at the fucker wrong, i noticed he was fidgity [sp] and looked for just a fraction too long and he attacked my, i cant remember how but i figure four arm bared him and his right arm probably still falls out of place. i also punched him in the ribs and broke a few of them aswell, then the security gaurd fella had him in a half nelson on the floor whilst i put my knee in the back of the P fucks throat to keep him down:bash: . not cool, i am against drugs [though alcohol is alright in small doses for me]

[bugjuice]

yup, all done and dusted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4487366.stm

[SARGE]

Again it goes back to the fact that the guy knew what the consequences for his actions were.


EDIT: err.. post was removed.. my bad..



goes back to the FAMOUS LAST WORDS THREAD (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=419496&postcount=108)

[ManDownUnder]

I feel sorry for the parents of the guy. It's not natural to bury your children, and I'm not sure if the sentence they got by virtue of this whole thing is fair.

Can't be avoided, but it's not easy all the same.

[Korea]

On the friendly immigration card as you land in Singapore:
"Welcome to beautiful Singapore - Death to drug traffickers!"
True.

[Lou Girardin]

Oh come on what retard wouldn't know that drug trafficing = death penalty.
.

What's the penalty in Turkey?

[inlinefour]

go to another country to commit a crime, then you have to accept the punishment. Sure the USA likes to tell other countries how to run their affairs, but who has the right to do that? In this country, yea I agree that the sentancing is week and pathetic. Our prisions are overfulled and inmates get compo??? One way to put people off doing crime could be death, would help make some room in prisons also:blip:

[scumdog]

What's the penalty in Turkey?

Dunno - but I bet if it had effing great signs at/near the airport I'd know pretty damn fast - but I guess if you've arrived with a shit-load of drugs like the dead man had you wouldn't be worried about no stinkin' signs eh?.

Kiwis and Aussies are pretty ohh-fay with the penalties in the more close at hand countries they visit - ESPECIALLY those with nasty consequences for certain offences.:yes:

[Grahameeboy]

In the Isle of Man they use the birch and crime is zero.....what is the rest of the world doing wrong....
The Yanks cannot accuse others....they put you on death row for a few years, let you have appeals and then it's snuff time.....how cruel is that.....at least Singapore just gets on with it and in this case (unlike America) guilt is more clear cut.....
As for the Aussies they let refugees jump off ship and do nought.....who are they to talk.......still at least they have now discovered that sheep are for shearing!!!

[Skyryder]

If only the Singaporean Government werent so fucking hypocritical - they hang the small time traffickers - crying "setting an example" - and cuddle up to the big time drug lords who push Billions of dollars of this shit through the Golden Triangle and Burma, laundering the money through Singaporean connections!.
The Singaporean Government is NOT lily white in all this! - just another bunch of hypocritical, posturing arseholes, who do one thing to the small time person with no power, making an example to the world at large, to gain brownie points from baying bands of holier than thou citizens, and being party to vast amounts of the same traffic, because there is money to be made and hiding behind the facade of a strong, anti drug, government!
And, as usual, ALL the small people at the bottom of the pile get shafted!

Was going to say something much the same but no need to now.

But on the death penality. Just not in favour of it. Never have been never will be.

Skyryder

[Zed]

...But on the death penality. Just not in favour of it. Never have been never will be.Not even in the case of a confessing murderer? Life for a life? (not wanting to get into a heated debate with u on this)

[WINJA]

Not even in the case of a confessing murderer? Life for a life? (not wanting to get into a heated debate with u on this)
I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE TYPE OF EVIDENCE , 150 OR SO PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW IN AMERICA HAVE BEEN FOUND INNOCENT, THATS BULLSHIT.
IN THE CASE OF THAT VIETNAMESE MAN HE WAS CAUGHT RED HANDED , TOUGH LUCK

[NC]

I hope they practice necrophillia there

[Dafe]

If idiotic people go into those countries and commit such crimes knowing that they could get the death penalty, then that's their decision and risk so if they get caught they suffer the consequences. Not allowing a last kiss from his mother is animalistic.

Now you particular peeps, if he was captured in New Zealand and punnished under our system, would you still be crying out to kill him?

Good point Zed!

No you wouldn't hear the people of NZ calling out to kill him!
Why??? Because they all have nothing to say to their own pathetic goverment regarding issues of criminal injustice, they accept our bullshit and move on, however - they only have big mouths regrading other nationalities.
Just look at all the heroic bigmouths here, telling us how singapore should drive the nail into the coffin. Yet nothing about the issues on their own doorsteps.
I wish they'd all shut the fark up! He made a bad mistake and now the dude's payed the ultimate price after a three year jail sentence. He took the whole ordeal more bravely than you or I would have too. Let the guy slip away with peace without rubbing the shit into his name! I farkin hate human nature sometimes..... Kicking a man while he's down!

[Dafe]

Rest In Peace Dude!

[MikeL]

(not wanting to get into a heated debate with u on this)

Why not?

Debate about the death penalty is bound to get heated. That's no reason not to have a debate.

My 2 cents worth:

[1] Execution is either an effective deterrent or it isn't. Facts (comparison of murder/crime rates in countries with and without the death penalty) will be conclusive.
[2] If it can't be justified as a deterrent, it becomes either simple retribution or expediency (a bullet is a lot cheaper than life imprisonment). The morality of this approach is murky to say the least.
[3] Anybody who supports capital punishment must be willing to do two things: (a) pull the lever himself and (b) make no complaint if the penalty is applied to his own loved one.
[4] Mistakes will always be made. You have to choose between two beliefs: (a) it is better for any number of guilty men to live than for one innocent person to die, or (b) the price that is paid is worth the benefit. The latter only makes sense if you accept the deterrent argument. Otherwise it is cynical expediency.

[kro]

There will always be people who knowingly flout the law, and have a cry about getting caught afterwards, this forum has its share. This does not mean I have no compassion for the man, but neither do I have to agree with his actions.

Don't like the law or rules?......... tough shit, get over it, find another way to achieve your goal.

[SixPackBack]

Murder and capital punishment come down to perception....to me the Singaporean Government commited murder.
A

[WINJA]

Murder and capital punishment come down to perception....to me the Singaporean Government commited murder.
A
DOES THAT MEAN THAT DRUG DEALER COMITTED MURDER TOO BY SELLING DRUGS, ALLS FAIR THEN ISNT IT , THE THING THAT STUCK OUT TO ME IN AUS WAS THE DRUG PROBLEMS , I WAS AT MCDONALDS BOURKE ST MELBOURNE WHEN SOMEONE OD,ED

[marty]

If I rolled right up to your house right now with some coke, and you tried it, are you worthy of a swing from the neck too?




you don't get hung for using - it's trafficking 380-odd grams - when 15 is the limit, that'll fuck you (and 10000 others) up

[SixPackBack]

DOES THAT MEAN THAT DRUG DEALER COMITTED MURDER TOO BY SELLING DRUGS, ALLS FAIR THEN ISNT IT , THE THING THAT STUCK OUT TO ME IN AUS WAS THE DRUG PROBLEMS , I WAS AT MCDONALDS BOURKE ST MELBOURNE WHEN SOMEONE OD,ED
Yes you have a point, but the person who OD'd was under no obligation to take the drug.
I cannot help feeling that we are not winning the war on drug's by having them illegal, perhaps its time to legalize ALL drugs and let Darwin take over.

[WINJA]

Yes you have a point, but the person who OD'd was under no obligation to take the drug.
I cannot help feeling that we are not winning the war on drug's by having them illegal, perhaps its time to legalize ALL drugs and let Darwin take over.
THEY DO SOME SHITTY THINGS TO GET YOU HOOKED , INCLUDING FREE SAMPLES AND THAT INCLUDES FREE TO KIDS , JUST THINK OF IT THIS WAY , WHAT IF THAT GUY GOT THRU AND IT WAS HIS SHIPMENT THAT WAS YOUR DAUGHTERS FREE SAMPLE AND FIRST TASTE THAT GETS HER HOOKED. BET YOUD RATHER SEE THAT GUY SWINGING BY HIS NECK THAN YOUR DAUGHTER STANDING ON HUNTERS CORNER AT 2 AM

[SixPackBack]

THEY DO SOME SHITTY THINGS TO GET YOU HOOKED , INCLUDING FREE SAMPLES AND THAT INCLUDES FREE TO KIDS , JUST THINK OF IT THIS WAY , WHAT IF THAT GUY GOT THRU AND IT WAS HIS SHIPMENT THAT WAS YOUR DAUGHTERS FREE SAMPLE AND FIRST TASTE THAT GETS HER HOOKED. BET YOUD RATHER SEE THAT GUY SWINGING BY HIS NECK THAN YOUR DAUGHTER STANDING ON HUNTERS CORNER AT 2 AM
Under those circumstances the children dabbling in the start up pack's are as much a victim of their own stupidity as the young man hanged.

[SixPackBack]

gotta disagree there dude. I see how you can say they are under no obligation to take the drug. Try telling that to someone who is physically and pschologicly (sp) addicted to a drug. Particuly opiates and Meth. In there shoes they simply cannot function without it.. not obligated though aye.
Initially they are under no obligation. Drug use is not mandatory.
Once addicted they most certainly will have issues stopping. My brother in law used 'P' for two years [whilst holding down a top management position?], he fought to stop and stop he did, to late however to halt the serious decline in his own health. He died on 1st Dec 2004 aged 35
No one hates drugs more than myself.

[750Y]

I WAS AT MCDONALDS BOURKE ST MELBOURNE WHEN SOMEONE OD,ED

Did they eat a whole McParty pack or something? maybe they upsized their coke? once You start, you can't stop the shake...

[Lias]

Incoming rant.. Ask wolf this is a subject that gets me VERY fired up.

NZ desperately needs a return to capital punishment. How often do we read about a scumbag on parole, or recently released from gaol going on to commit another murder, rape, or act of child abuse? Far too fucking often for my liking. All serious recidivist offenders should be shot.

Lets not forget that prison is a fucking joke in this country. We really need to establish that prisoners have no human rights. We can learn alot from so called "3rd world" prison systems. Bread, water, and hard labour are the way it should be.

As for the "human rights" wankers that think that prisoners deserve the same rights as their victims, I hope to hell that someday they see a family member raped or murdered in front of their eyes, maybe then they will realise that justice isnt about rehabilitation, its about punishment and revenge.


Combat 84 - Rapist

He's a dirty and evil man
And no one wants to know
He could be living in your town
The sign of the Rapist doesn't show
Young girls come to me
Stalking victims in the street
When it happens no-one sees
You're just dragged down off your feet

[Chorus]
Capital Punishment
A stronger Government

Plastic mask and hairy wig
You're too scared to show your face
You're acting like a dirty pig
You're a cancer of the human race
Filth of society should all die
We need a stronger government
All you gotta do is hang 'em high
We want capital punishment

[Chorus]

We need a stronger government
Bring back capital punishment
[x4]

[Chorus]

Hang 'em, hang 'em, hang 'em high
You watch those fucking bastards die
[x4]

[Chorus]

[ManDownUnder]

Incoming rant.. Ask wolf this is a subject that gets me VERY fired up.

NZ desperately needs a return to capital punishment. How often do we read about a scumbag on parole, or recently released from gaol going on to commit another murder, rape, or act of child abuse? Far too fucking often for my liking. All serious recidivist offenders should be shot.

Lets not forget that prison is a fucking joke in this country. We really need to establish that prisoners have no human rights. We can learn alot from so called "3rd world" prison systems. Bread, water, and hard labour are the way it should be.

As for the "human rights" wankers that think that prisoners deserve the same rights as their victims, I hope to hell that someday they see a family member raped or murdered in front of their eyes, maybe then they will realise that justice isnt about rehabilitation, its about punishment and revenge.

Nope - I'm equally equivocal that it's not the way to go. The goal is to get people off the streets for good - that I can agree on, but I don't see that it's anyone's right (man, Crown or State) to take the life of another person.

To start a war is obscene, to defend yourself againt lethal force (with lethal force) is ok, that's about the only time I would condone it. There are some good arguments for overwhelming lethal force where it will likely shorten the combat and result in a lower nett mortality.

Lock 'em up for life - no problem. Take away their life - never.
MDU

- Sesame Street Lyrics



Sunny Day
Sweepin' the clouds away
On my way to where the air is sweet

Can you tell me how to get,
How to get to Sesame Street

Come and play
Everything's A-OK
Friendly neighbors there
That's where we meet

Can you tell me how to get
How to get to Sesame Street

It's a magic carpet ride
Every door will open wide
To Happy people like you--
Happy people like
What a beautiful

Sunny Day
Sweepin' the clouds away
On my way to where the air is sweet

Can you tell me how to get,
How to get to Sesame street...
How to get to Sesame Street
How to get to...

(US Puiblic Broadcasting service)

The point of posting these lyrics is to highlight how pointless quoting the lyrics/thoughts and opinions of others is... I prefer to hear your own...

[Drunken Monkey]

... if only new zealand had a penalty the same....

If only New Zealand had a death penalty as well then...what?

Don't get me wrong, I'm in complete agreement = he knew the penalty, and he got caught, but I have been hearing a lot of people who 'reckon' a death penalty with somehow lessen drug trafficking here and reduce the number of druggies? I'm sorry, but despite the strict penalties for posession/trafficking of _many_ Asian countries, they have much bigger problems than we do. I can assure you it's much easier to 'score' in Singapore, Indonesia, Hong Kong, etc... than it is here. I can be convinced that the death penalty is a useful tool, but the reasoning, in this case, is just plain wrong.

[jrandom]

"You should be hanged for crimes against the English language."

Correctness be damned, you dried-out old pedantrist; Henry Higgins said it with much greater lyricism.

[Lias]

Nope - I'm equally equivocal that it's not the way to go. The goal is to get people off the streets for good - that I can agree on, but I don't see that it's anyone's right (man, Crown or State) to take the life of another person.

To start a war is obscene, to defend yourself againt lethal force (with lethal force) is ok, that's about the only time I would condone it. There are some good arguments for overwhelming lethal force where it will likely shorten the combat and result in a lower nett mortality.

Lock 'em up for life - no problem. Take away their life - never.
MDU

I strongly suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree mate.
Your still seeing these criminals as people, with the inherent right of any civilized member of society to not be killed. I simply believe that by their actions, they have renounced any rights that a civizlied society would have afforded them.

If a dog is rabid, and cant be trusted with the sheep anymore, you dont lock it up in a kennel with 3 square meals a day and a playstation. You shoot the bloody mongrel.

[scumdog]

Nope - I'm equally equivocal that it's not the way to go. The goal is to get people off the streets for good - that I can agree on, but I don't see that it's anyone's right (man, Crown or State) to take the life of another person.



The problem I have with the more severe criminal is an unwillingness to see my taxes being used to keep them alive - let those that DON'T want the death penalty come forwards and pay for the keep of murderers/serial rapists etc and let the money save go to schools, hospitals etc!!

[MikeL]

Correctness be damned, you dried-out old pedantrist; Henry Higgins said it with much greater lyricism.

Lyricism be damned. Surely you can't take seriously anything said by someone who wondered why a woman couldn't be more like a man...

[ManDownUnder]

I strongly suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree mate.

Your still seeing these criminals as people, with the inherent right of any civilized member of society to not be killed. I simply believe that by their actions, they have renounced any rights that a civizlied society would have afforded them.

If a dog is rabid, and cant be trusted with the sheep anymore, you dont lock it up in a kennel with 3 square meals a day and a playstation. You shoot the bloody mongrel.

Yeah I know - and sometimes I see it your way, but then Arthur Allen Thomas comes to mind and I have to wonder how many have been put to death in the past where they did nothing except have a bad lawyer, or faced a good prosecution lawyer.

I would comment that their very life is not a right - it's an absolute. Even in uncivilised society people are alive - it isn't something they have - it's their very being.


The problem I have with the more severe criminal is an unwillingness to see my taxes being used to keep them alive - let those that DON'T want the death penalty come forwards and pay for the keep of murderers/serial rapists etc and let the money save go to schools, hospitals etc!!

Yes - pisses me off too. Don't get me wrong - I just think the expenditure of a lifetime's care and support for them is the lesser of two evils. I'd like to see them with fewer priviledges though. TV's, Computers, Ham dinners for Christmas etc when there are good hard working families out there being screwed over by the tax dept and others.

If I could "tweak" society - I'd come down hard on the young offenders - the "broken windows policy" NYC implemented, and I'd come down harder on repeat offenders. Crime is simply too attractive and the whole PC thing is WAAYYYY over the top (says he arguing for avoidance of capital punishment).

Lock 'em up, put them through hell, make prison an unattractive place to be and make society the attractive place to be.

[jrandom]

someone who wondered why a woman couldn't be more like a man...

Now there's an admirable sentiment.

If I ever meet the Creator, I'll be sure to bring that question up. To date, women's clothing stores are the most persuasive argument I've found against the 'intelligent design' theory.

[SPman]

I am vehemently against capital punishment! It is ritualised state sacrifice to the gods of death! Time after time, it is used against the powerless people in society, some of whom are even guilty, whilst truly apalling crimes commited by the powerful go unpunished!!
BUT.
What I am in favour of, is the victim, or the victims immediate relatives, Being given a pistol with 4 rounds and let loose with the perpetrator (immobilised) for 30 minutes! Within that 30 mins, the victim can maim, kill or even just accept an apology from the perpetrator. After that 30mins, all bets are off! If the victim pardons the perp, the perp is under a bond, length of time decreed by the victim - any reoffending results in IMMEDIATE death! :chase:
Its a personal victim/perpetrator confrontation, with the victim having the opportunity for personal revenge, or, whatever, - just shoot their balls off, or torture them a bit, with no legal recriminations - NO STATE INVOLVEMENT at all! 1 on 1!
Keep the fucking state power machine out of this - it is only another way to control and intimidate us ALL!

[Phurrball]

(snip)
NZ desperately needs a return to capital punishment. How often do we read about a scumbag on parole, or recently released from gaol going on to commit another murder, rape, or act of child abuse? Far too fucking often for my liking. All serious recidivist offenders should be shot.

Lets not forget that prison is a fucking joke in this country. We really need to establish that prisoners have no human rights. We can learn alot from so called "3rd world" prison systems. Bread, water, and hard labour are the way it should be.

As for the "human rights" wankers that think that prisoners deserve the same rights as their victims, I hope to hell that someday they see a family member raped or murdered in front of their eyes, maybe then they will realise that justice isnt about rehabilitation, its about punishment and revenge.

Your latter position is one view of justice - punishment and revenge. Prevention would surely be better than cure, would it not? What would an actual occurrence of what you suggest achieve? Greater nett suffering methinks.

I don't believe that statistical evidence suggests that capital crimes are lower in states/countries that have capital punishment. It doesn't work.

As for prison: Have you been there to know it's so cushy? (Anyone who has feel free to offer an opinion) 'Tis easy to judge from the afar. I've an inkling that prison is no bed of roses. NZ is party to a number of international treaties re human rights, we have a human rights act, and the NZ bill of rights act. These apply to all people - even those in prison. Society should be juged by how it treats its lowliest and most depraved individuals - if we treat them in an inhumane manner, what does that make us?

DNA evidence has come to light in the US to suggest that some people executed in pre-DNA evidence days were innocent. Are these people merely to be written off as collateral damage? The judicial system does make mistakes on occasion - that is why there is an appellate jurisdiction - but sometimes even this does not prevent the odd innocent bod' being put in prison. Do we really want the possibility - even if remote - of an innocent being put to death. What value do we place on an innocent life wrongly taken? Should revenge be taken on the family of the executioner? [pt]

I hear and appreciate the arguments re taxes being used to support some people that are genuine pond scum - but I agree with MDU that life in prison is the lesser of the evils. Let's also not forget that some proper badasses have had 'de facto' capital punishment - David Gray et al.

Since we're into song lyrics, here are some more to ponder (Courtesy of David Slack's Island Life blog at www.publicaddress.net)


...that great old song by Steve Earle, Billy Austin, which runs like this:

My name is Billy Austin
I'm Twenty-Nine years old
I was born in Oklahoma
Quarter Cherokee I'm told
Don't remember Oklahoma
Been so long since I left home
Seems like I've always been in prison
Like I've always been alone
Didn't mean to hurt nobody
Never thought I'd cross that line
I held up a filling station
Like I'd done a hundred times
The kid done like I told him
He lay face down on the floor
guess I'll never know what made me
Turn and walk back through that door
The shot rang out like thunder
My ears rang like a bell
No one came runnin'
So I called the cops myself
Took their time to get there
And I guess I could'a run
I knew I should be feeling something
But I never shed tear one
I didn't even make the papers
'Cause I only killed one man
but my trial was over quickly
And then the long hard wait began
Court appointed lawyer
Couldn't look me in the eye
He just stood up and closed his briefcase
When they sentenced me to die
Now my waitin's over
As the final hour drags by
I ain't about to tell you
That I don't deserve to die
But there's twenty-seven men here
Mostly black, brown and poor
Most of em are guilty
Who are you to say for sure?
So when the preacher comes to get me
And they shave off all my hair
Could you take that long walk with me
Knowing hell is waitin' there
Could you pull that switch yourself sir
With a sure and steady hand
Could you still tell yourself sir
That you're better than I am
My name is Billy Austin
I'm twenty-nine years old
I was born in Oklahoma
Quarter Cherokee I'm told

For what it's worth, the song ends with almost the same sound effect as the jail tour in KL.

[Skyryder]

Incoming rant.. Ask wolf this is a subject that gets me VERY fired up.

NZ desperately needs a return to capital punishment. How often do we read about a scumbag on parole, or recently released from gaol going on to commit another murder, rape, or act of child abuse? Far too fucking often for my liking. All serious recidivist offenders should be shot.

Lets not forget that prison is a fucking joke in this country. We really need to establish that prisoners have no human rights. We can learn alot from so called "3rd world" prison systems. Bread, water, and hard labour are the way it should be.

As for the "human rights" wankers that think that prisoners deserve the same rights as their victims, I hope to hell that someday they see a family member raped or murdered in front of their eyes, maybe then they will realise that justice isnt about rehabilitation, its about punishment and revenge.

I think the problem in this country is that many sentances are far too light and the first reaction is to bring in the death penalty. Unfortunately the death penaly is not a deterent. There has been a number of studies where the death penalty has been in force and the murder rate has gone up.

I do not believe that prisoners deserve the same rights as victims but the reality is that they do have rights just not as many as you and I. Justice is not about rehabilitation nor is it about punishment and it certainly is not about revenge. Justice is about our rights that 's yours and mine. The system is not perfect and is more suited for the wealthy than the poor. It's designed to protect the innocent more than convict the guilty. As for learning from the third world I can't help but think of Idi Aman, Robert Mugabe, etc.

I once knew a guy who thought much like yourself, seems after his marrage broke up his ex got knocked about by her new boyfriend. She was so terrified of him that she said she was beaten up by her ex husband. Fact was no one believed him. It wasn't untill the day of his trial that the boyfriend had another go at the 'wife' and the 'truth came out. Those that preach what you preach soon change their mind about rights once theirr own rights have been violated. Oh it seems that some copper had a thing about wife beaters and bruised his balls. Claimed my friend was resistiang arrest. Consequently my friend does not think in the same manner.

Skyryder

[Ixion]

Assorted religious argument moved to the Scottish thread.

[ducatilover]

"Tip toe thru the tulips with me"
These are the original lyrics as transcribed from the original sheet music:
Shades of night are creeping, willow trees are weeping, old folks and babies are sleeping, silver Stars are gleaming, all alone I'm scheming, scheming to get you out here, my dear, come tip toe thru the window, by the window, that is where I'll be, come tip toe thru The tulips with me.
Tip toe from your pillow, to the shadow of a willow tree, and tip toe thru The tulips with me.
Knee deep in flowers we'll stray, we'll keep the showers away, and if I kiss you in the garden, in the moonlight, will you pardon me, come tip toe thru the tulips with me.
Come on out and pet me, come and Juliet me, tease me and slyly coquette me, let me romeo you, I Just want to show you, how much I'm willing to do for you, come tip toe to the window, by the window, that is where I'll be, come tip toe thru the tulips with me. Tip toe from your pillow, to the shadow of the willow tree, and tip toe thru the tulips with me.
:killingme

[scumdog]

If I could "tweak" society - I'd come down hard on the young offenders - the "broken windows policy" NYC implemented, and I'd come down harder on repeat offenders. Crime is simply too attractive and the whole PC thing is WAAYYYY over the top (says he arguing for avoidance of capital punishment).

Lock 'em up, put them through hell, make prison an unattractive place to be and make society the attractive place to be.

You and me agree on this, juvenile offenders - well repeat ones - get bugger-all punishment, there is no consequence for their action (to a greater extent) and by the time they turn 17 they 'know the ropes' and turn into better criminals.
Some decide to straighten their act up as soon as they turn 17 since the know the ante has gone up a whole lot - and they piss me of too, taking advantage of a system that has less power than a putty bazooka.:spudgrr:

You don't molly-coddle a pup if you want it to grow into a good dog - young humans are no different!!

[Phurrball]

I think the problem in this country is that many sentances are far too light and the first reaction is to bring in the death penalty. Unfortunately the death penaly is not a deterent. There has been a number of studies where the death penalty has been in force and the murder rate has gone up.

I do not believe that prisoners deserve the same rights as victims but the reality is that they do have rights just not as many as you and I. Justice is not about rehabilitation nor is it about punishment and it certainly is not about revenge. Justice is about our rights that 's yours and mine. The system is not perfect and is more suited for the wealthy than the poor. It's designed to protect the innocent more than convict the guilty. As for learning from the third world I can't help but think of Idi Aman, Robert Mugabe, etc.

I once knew a guy who thought much like yourself, seems after his marrage broke up his ex got knocked about by her new boyfriend. She was so terrified of him that she said she was beaten up by her ex husband. Fact was no one believed him. It wasn't untill the day of his trial that the boyfriend had another go at the 'wife' and the 'truth came out. Those that preach what you preach soon change their mind about rights once theirr own rights have been violated. Oh it seems that some copper had a thing about wife beaters and bruised his balls. Claimed my friend was resistiang arrest. Consequently my friend does not think in the same manner.

Skyryder

Well said SR -

NZ does have one of the highest prison occupancy rates in the western world - I don't think it's achieving much personally. I'm glad you used a qualifier re the length of sentences - NZ these days hands out some beauty sentences these days - but not always. I agree with the comments made by Scumdog and MDU relating to juveniles...For the most part, we seem to take an all or nothing approach - the approach used on juvenile offenders jst doesn't work for many...then they arrive in 'Big boys' court. There doesn't seem to be an in-between.

(Phurrball takes a deep breath and primes for ducking...)

IMHO we could learn a from Tikanga Maori - Tikanga operates a strict liability system. If someone transgresses, then someone must make ammends [more like the tort of negligence = strict liability]. If the perpetrator is unwilling to make ammends, their family/community is held to account by way of utu or muru to restore balance. I imagine if applied to juvenile offenders, this model would bring about results ie if young 'Johnny' is a badass, then 'Johnny's' family/extended family gets to pay for the injury caused - no questions.

Tikanga is pretty good [from the little I've learned] at bringing people to account for their actions - on occasion to the extent of picking someone/ a group from a community as a scapegoat if the true perpetrator won't put their hand up...

Some reform of the way we treat juvenile offenders would seem to be necessary IMHO - the current system may be well intentioned, and work for some people, but oftentimes fails to bring the consequences of the offending to bear on the offender and those responsible for the offender.

My $0.02...

[mstriumph]

Well said SR -

NZ does have one of the highest prison occupancy rates in the western world - I don't think it's achieving much personally. ..............................


... except provide a black hole for taxpayer dollars, mebbe .......




(Phurrball takes a deep breath and primes for ducking...)

IMHO we could learn a from Tikanga Maori - Tikanga operates a strict liability system. If someone transgresses, then someone must make ammends [more like the tort of negligence = strict liability]. If the perpetrator is unwilling to make ammends, their family/community is held to account by way of utu or muru to restore balance. I imagine if applied to juvenile offenders, this model would bring about results ie if young 'Johnny' is a badass, then 'Johnny's' family/extended family gets to pay for the injury caused - no questions.

My $0.02... sorta similar to the system i understand operated among the zulu prior to settlement of RSA .................. always thought how sensible it seemed.

Which is probably why it will never happen here - too sensible!!

[Lou Girardin]

T FIRST TASTE THAT GETS HER HOOKED.

Bovine excrement?
Hooked after one taste:slap:

This thread is glowing like Chernobel, from all the red necks posts.

[WINJA]

Bovine excrement?
Hooked after one taste:slap:

This thread is glowing like Chernobel, from all the red necks posts.
CMON , YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN , IT HAS TO START SOMEWHERE

[scumdog]

Bovine excrement?
Hooked after one taste:slap:

This thread is glowing like Chernobel, from all the red necks posts.

Nah, just a chance for decent people like you to figure a way to pay to keep murdering drop-kicks in prison alive while the rest of us rednecks that don't care if they die spend the money from our taxes that WOULD have kept them alive on more important stuff - like beer etc

You want them to stay alive? YOU pay for them - I sure as hell don't want to.

[Lou Girardin]

The reason I'm against the death sentence in nearly all cases is because of Arthur Allan Thomas, David Dougherty, the guy up north who was wrongly jailed for killing his girlfriend and to a lesser extent Barlow in Welly,David Tamihere and Scott Watson.
These people could all be dead now.
The cops and the courts will have to be a damn sight sharper before I'd agree with capital punishment in NZ.

[MikeL]

The cops and the courts will have to be a damn sight sharper before I'd agree with capital punishment in NZ.

Vocal advocates of capital punishment fall strangely silent when judicial error is mentioned. They can try to minimize its importance but they can't deny it. As I pointed out in my previous post, attempting to rationalize it as "collateral damage" or whatever is morally dodgy. The proponents of the death penalty should at least have the honesty to state what they believe: that that the odd mistake is unfortunate but an acceptable price to pay, and thereby show that expediency, not right and wrong, is the issue.

[ManDownUnder]

...The proponents of the death penalty should at least have the honesty to state what they believe: that that the odd mistake is unfortunate but an acceptable price to pay, and thereby show that expediency, not right and wrong, is the issue.

succinctly put - and I think that is the crux of it.

I see that as an unacceptable price to pay.

I also hold a point of view that it's not the right of anyone (or anything) to take the life of another in a premeditated manner.

[oldrider]

succinctly put - and I think that is the crux of it.

I see that as an unacceptable price to pay.

I also hold a point of view that it's not the right of anyone (or anything) to take the life of another in a premeditated manner.
The risk in Capital punishment is that the proposer becomes in fact worse than the offender.
(State murder is worse than random murder. IMO)
We become what we oppose, is that what we want?
The young man in question made a foolish choice, that was his calculated risk. He got it sooooh wrong. :bye: John.

[scumdog]

The reason I'm against the death sentence in nearly all cases is because of Arthur Allan Thomas, David Dougherty, the guy up north who was wrongly jailed for killing his girlfriend and to a lesser extent Barlow in Welly,David Tamihere and Scott Watson.
These people could all be dead now.
The cops and the courts will have to be a damn sight sharper before I'd agree with capital punishment in NZ.

Got to agree with you in principle Lou - but how would you feel if there was a catagory that fitted mandatory death sentence? Like there were independant witnesses and their was such linking evidence combined with a confession, e.g. the guy that stabbed his ex to death on front of a dozen witnesses in a park? Or that guy Bailey down here - no mistake with him.

The circumstancial one (Scott Watson et al) are a different catagory.

[SPman]

The trouble is - nearly all murders are spur of the moment - not actually planned, thought out and executed.
Drug couriering in many cases is an act of desperation and stupidity. The death penalty has rarely been a deterrent, because people act first and may think about consequences later - when its far too late. In drug courier cases, the people they they SHOULD be executing, are the bankers, who launder the drug money, the politicians who fraternise and encourage the drug lords, the people who are making real money out of it - not the poor schmucks who are killing themselves anyway, using and dealing in drugs. Its like killing individual ants when the only way to kill the hive is to kill the queen !
The small time couriers and dealers are fully expendable and a token sop to the public at large by politcians to make the appearance of them doing something.

[Lou Girardin]

Got to agree with you in principle Lou - but how would you feel if there was a catagory that fitted mandatory death sentence? Like there were independant witnesses and their was such linking evidence combined with a confession, e.g. the guy that stabbed his ex to death on front of a dozen witnesses in a park? Or that guy Bailey down here - no mistake with him.

The circumstancial one (Scott Watson et al) are a different catagory.

There are some circumstances where the offender has to be removed from society for keeps. The ones you mentioned, Taffy Jones who killed Kylie Jones as she walked home from work and there's been others.
Real life terms or capital punishment - no problem.

[scumdog]

succinctly put - and I think that is the crux of it.

I see that as an unacceptable price to pay.

I also hold a point of view that it's not the right of anyone (or anything) to take the life of another in a premeditated manner.

Sort of the price to pay for the freedom of riding a motorcycle - ok, MOST of us are pretty safe riders so the Gov't let use ride on the roads.
We are prepared to do that with the (subconsciousl) thought that innocents get 'cleaned-up' and killed.
A bit like innocent people get 'hung' as part of the 'risk' of being the part of society they are.
Get my drift? or am I too obtuse??

[mstriumph]

my grandad always said it was an error to gamble with what one couldn't afford to lose

every infringement has a penalty

because in Aus and NZ consequences can usually be evaded or minimized some people are misled into thinking that this is a universal truth

or think they will be lucky and not get caught

sometimes they are right - sometimes not

either way a gamble - their choice

[MikeL]

Sort of the price to pay for the freedom of riding a motorcycle - ok, MOST of us are pretty safe riders so the Gov't let use ride on the roads.
We are prepared to do that with the (subconsciousl) thought that innocents get 'cleaned-up' and killed.
A bit like innocent people get 'hung' as part of the 'risk' of being the part of society they are.
Get my drift? or am I too obtuse??

I understand what you are saying and to a certain extent there is an analogy. However it breaks down when you take it too far.

Would you tolerate a society in which continued prosperity for all was guaranteed only by the annual ritual sacrifice of innocent young men and women? Such a practice was not unknown in primitive societies. To a large extent the freedom we enjoy to drive or ride is paid for by an analogous sacrifice. Because neither technology nor human behaviour is perfectible the only way to avoid the sacrifice of lives is to forego the benefit completely. Morally this makes sense. In practice it has become unthinkable (which proves how little morality has to do with modern thinking), and we rationalize our expediency by strenuous but futile efforts to reduce the sacrifice to zero, while only those whose lives have been touched by tragedy ever fully understand what that sacrifice means. Psychologically we nevertheless accept the situation because, apart from the practical aspect, we can relatively easily remove from the equation the question of premeditation or intent. Deaths on the road are "accidental" in the sense that they are rarely the result of a conscious decision to kill. Because "accidental" implies to at least some extent the action of random forces or chance we can persuade ourselves that there is no real moral issue involved.
Now consider the case of capital punishment. We could rationalize the "collateral damage" in the same way we rationalize the road toll, but the question of intent makes the morality a lot more problematical. Propaganda from the LTSA labels road users potential murderers; this is as ridiculous as it is insulting. However it is not playing with words to describe capital punishment as judicial murder.
Most of us are quite happy to ride our bikes and drive our cars with the knowledge that fate, chance or whatever may intervene at some time. A situation in which the state can deliberately murder its citizens, some of whom will inevitably be innocent, seems to me to be quite a different thing.

[mstriumph]

'The state' is supposed to represent the will of 'the people'; ...since, in an issue as contentious as this one
it seems to be difficult to ascertain what 'the people' actually want, how about the following hypothetical?:-

People who commit the crimes of [enter list of crimes decided upon by public referendum here]
would be sentenced to 'life pending death' and incacerated.

It costs $NZ XXX to keep a prisoner in secure detention .....
each year, prior to budget-time, the value of $NZ XXX is calculated for the coming financial year.

The cost of maintaining secure detention facilities for 'life pending death' prisoners is removed
from the budget so it is NOT taxpayer-funded.

Each year a list of the names and convictions of all prisoners currently imprisoned under the 'life pending death' policy, together with their individual convictions, is circulated to all citizens [including the prisoners themselves].

Each citizen can indicate how much s/he is prepared to contribute towards the support of which prisoners
for the coming year.

Those prisoners who do not attract the necessary $NZ XXX are undramatically executed once their funding runs out.

Lump sum cash gifts, bequests, etc. would also be permitted towards the ongoing upkeep
of any individual prisoner ..... the ONLY provisio being that the donor MUST be an individual NZ citizen
[ie not a corporation or other legal entity] and no advertising or formal fundraising is permitted.


In this way, perhaps, people's individual views can impact the system on an ongoing basis .............
.................. because, even just from the postings here, they certainly don't seem to do that currently?


... of course, it'll never happen ..... power for 'the people'? HA!! ... mutter, mutter, mutter

[ManDownUnder]

Sort of the price to pay for the freedom of riding a motorcycle - ok, MOST of us are pretty safe riders so the Gov't let use ride on the roads.
We are prepared to do that with the (subconsciousl) thought that innocents get 'cleaned-up' and killed.
A bit like innocent people get 'hung' as part of the 'risk' of being the part of society they are.
Get my drift? or am I too obtuse??

I see your line of thought...

... but... (a firm taught kind) the essential difference is that we have no say over the outcome of motorcycle accidents. We can't make a rule that says all accidents over nnnkph will result in death (or indeed WON'T result in death).

We don't have control over that destiny and so must accept the outcome without the right of recourse.

There is also no right/wrong decision to be made. Physics, Biology and Medicine will combine settle the matter one way or the other.

No so with smuggling drugs. The judicial system is highly subjective, meaning the subtlties of law, or even the expertise of the lawyers will help determine the outcome of the Guilty/Not Guilty decision. The law can also be changed to determine the severity of the outcome.

Yes there is an assessment of risk when engaging either either activity, and it's an interesting line of argument (that holds a lot of water dammit) but I'm personally all for removing the death sentence as previously mentioned.

MDU

[Lou Girardin]

'The state' is supposed to represent the will of 'the people'; ...since, in an issue as contentious as this one
it seems to be difficult to ascertain what 'the people' actually want, how about the following hypothetical?:-

People who commit the crimes of [enter list of crimes decided upon by public referendum here]
would be sentenced to 'life pending death' and incacerated.

It costs $NZ XXX to keep a prisoner in secure detention .....
each year, prior to budget-time, the value of $NZ XXX is calculated for the coming financial year.

The cost of maintaining secure detention facilities for 'life pending death' prisoners is removed
from the budget so it is NOT taxpayer-funded.

Each year a list of the names and convictions of all prisoners currently imprisoned under the 'life pending death' policy, together with their individual convictions, is circulated to all citizens [including the prisoners themselves].

Each citizen can indicate how much s/he is prepared to contribute towards the support of which prisoners
for the coming year.

Those prisoners who do not attract the necessary $NZ XXX are undramatically executed once their funding runs out.

Lump sum cash gifts, bequests, etc. would also be permitted towards the ongoing upkeep
of any individual prisoner ..... the ONLY provisio being that the donor MUST be an individual NZ citizen
[ie not a corporation or other legal entity] and no advertising or formal fundraising is permitted.


In this way, perhaps, people's individual views can impact the system on an ongoing basis .............
.................. because, even just from the postings here, they certainly don't seem to do that currently?


... of course, it'll never happen ..... power for 'the people'? HA!! ... mutter, mutter, mutter


This has to be a piss-take, right?
Because the logical conclusion of this is a 'survival of the richest' society.

[ManDownUnder]

'The state' is supposed to represent the will of 'the people'; ...since, in an issue as contentious as this one
it seems to be difficult to ascertain what 'the people' actually want, how about the following hypothetical?:-

Na - anything requiring the active or "opt in" participation of people in general is doomed to failure.

xxxKittiexxx's thread about people not giving a rat's butt for a sick girl in their midst is enough evidence of that for me.

How much less would they care about names on a piece of paper?

[mstriumph]

This has to be a piss-take, right?
Because the logical conclusion of this is a 'survival of the richest' society.

:o sorry, Lou ...... the conversation just seemed to be flagging ......

[Karma]

How much less would they care about names on a piece of paper?

Depends if that name is Weasel!