This could've been anyone one here...

[James Deuce]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3498636a10,00.html

Read it and then tell me that you didn't feel something for this man.

I'm not disputing the Singaporean Government's right to implement laws and enforce them, neither am I debating the merits or otherwise of the death penalty.

He was monumentally stupid. But like so many "stupid" people it was for reasons that defy rationalisation.

Imagine his mother's loss. Imagine the guilt his twin will bear.

[skelstar]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3498636a10,00.html
Read it and then tell me that you didn't feel something for this man.
I'm not disputing the Singaporean Government's right to implement laws and enforce them, neither am I debating the merits or otherwise of the death penalty.
He was monumentally stupid. But like so many "stupid" people it was for reasons that defy rationalisation.
Imagine his mother's loss. Imagine the guilt his twin will bear.
Ok, dont know the WHOLE story but if you woke up one day and thought "I might smuggle some drugs today...." which country would you not smuggle them out of?

[edit] sorry thought it was thailand

[sAsLEX]

The crime

Nguyen Tuong Van, 25, was arrested at Changi Airport with 396.2 grams of heroin strapped to his body. His botched smuggling run was meant to generate cash to pay the debts of his drug-addicted twin.


Dont normally travel with Heroin on me!

[Waylander]

He smuggled drugs. Be damned if I'm gonna feel sorry for him, His family yes because it's not thier fault he is a fucking idiot, though the twin is worse.

[James Deuce]

Guys come on, I said I wasn't disputing the right of other countries to maintain their border security how they see fit, or that he did something stupid.

Whatever you think about the actual crime, I'm not interested in discussing. He was trying to pay his drug addicted twin's debts. If you have even a nugget of empathy, and are committed to your family surely you can understand how he got himself in this (albeit thoroughly irrational) position?

[ManDownUnder]

it's very very sobering. In about 1 hour (11am NZT) this guy is going to be put to death.

He's 25, he did something monumentally stupid and saying "Sorry" isn't enough.

I wish more people would learn that saying "sorry" isn't enough. Gotta admit I'll be giving him a moment's silence - thinking of him at 11:00am this morning...

[scumdog]

His actions rank right up there with heading the wrong way on a busy motorway on a GN250 - blindfolded - when it comes to self preservation! Let's call him Mr Lemming eh?

All the warning were there but HE chose to ignore them - bad luck!!!

Only worse 'cos if he had got away with it how many other lives would have been affected??( badly)

Somewhere in the world there will be some poor bugger confined to a wheelchair who is thinking "what a waste of a good body, if I had one like that I wouldn't be risking it doing dumb shit like THAT!!"

[Waylander]

Fuck no I wouldn't try smuggeling drugs for my brother. If anything I'de beat the shit out of him for getting hooked on it in the first place. Dumb enough to do it, dumb enough to be punnished.

[Colapop]

Being an Australian citizen I cannot figure out why he did not make use of the social services that are available in that country, if he was so worried about his brother why didn't he get a loan and put him in re-hab. This guy is not mentally retarded just stupid. Yep feel for his family, mother especially, but the reality is that there is so much media coverage about drug snugglers treatment from these countries that he must have known he was putting his life at risk. No sympathy for him, no apologies either.

[Lou Girardin]

It's barbarism plain and simple. They won't even let his Mother hug him, they did relent and allow hand holding though.
I don't have a problem with the death penalty for some forms of murder. But this guy has killed no-one, despite the pathetic justifications of the Singapore Govt.
If they are so hot on drug dealers, why do they allow entry to known drug king pins?
Singapore is a definitive example of a punitive authoritarian regime getting 'tough' on crime. One of which is failing to flush a public toilet - $150.00 please.
Fuck 'em. One place that'll never get my money.

[bugjuice]

I don't feel sorry for him. He knew the second he agreed to do it, that it could end like this. Any thing to do with drugs is bad, and he knows the consiquences. Shit, I crapped a brick going thru the airport with Panadol in my bag.. He took the drugs, he took the risk, and the country is gonna take him. The consiquences of smuggling drugs is nothing new. People have known the actions taken for donkeys years, and yet they still try to push their luck. Well fuck 'em, if they don't learn by other peoples stupidity, then they aren't going to learn shit. They will keep doing it and keep trying to bring drugs to kids to make a big buck, and fuck up more stupid people. It's natural selection imo.

If this guy had been 'set-up', then yeah, I'd feel the world for him, but I don't. He was a dick to do it, and now he's being punished. Why should we care about just another drug runner?

[sAsLEX]

. He was trying to pay his drug addicted twin's debts.

Sure but he hasn't been much help!


One must think of the outcomes of any dicission one would make before making it, he obviously didn't by choosing to smuggle drugs in to a country as strict as that

[James Deuce]

Please don't let this descend into a debate about the right's and wrongs of the issue. I'm not trying to debate the outcome of whether he'd got away with it or not.

Can no one put themselves in a pair of shoes labelled, "I will do anything to help someone I care about" irespective of the consequences? Can no one honestly look inside and say that they've done stupid things for similar reasons, but only escaped a similar punishment because the actions they took didn't require intervention at an authoritative government level? Or the flat out got away with it?

[bugjuice]

I've done stupid things with a minimal calculated risk. I haven't tried smuggling drugs into one of the worlds' noutoriously strict countries, no.. why the fuck would you even think of trying? Drugs = bad. Kill the fuckin lot of them.

[Sniper]

I can understand how he got himself into this mess and realise that he was doing it for good, but he could have found out some more legit means.

[bugjuice]

I can understand how he got himself into this mess and realise that he was doing it for good, but he could have found out some more legit means.
k, i think i've really missed a key thing here. what good was he doing?

is it meant to be this bit?:
His botched smuggling run was meant to generate cash to pay the debts of his drug-addicted twin.

[Grahameeboy]

The Law is the Law and if you break it you suffer....sad but no point complaining eh.....would there have been so much media if the guy had been Indian.....our survey sayd "No".
Who are we to judge others.....sorry he Yanks do it and look at their judicial system.....okay you are sentenced to death but we will let you think about it for a few years......we will let you appeal as much as you like cause we are nice like that and then your time is up.......

[DMNTD]

Can no one put themselves in a pair of shoes labelled, "I will do anything to help someone I care about" irespective of the consequences? Can no one honestly look inside and say that they've done stupid things for similar reasons, but only escaped a similar punishment because the actions they took didn't require intervention at an authoritative government level? Or the flat out got away with it?

I sure can put myself in those shoes Jim2 but I do take issue with the anything part.
There are many other ways he could have helped his messed up brother...and if he had to be an idiot and smuggle drugs why choose a country like that?
The guy did wrong and will no suffer bad...his family more so. Sad,very sad but he knew what was up and he took the risks.
I've done many stupid things...and no doubt will continue to:thud:

[sAsLEX]

Can no one put themselves in a pair of shoes labelled, "I will do anything to help someone I care about" irespective of the consequences?

surely you wouldn't find the biggest pair of cement shoes and then go swimming would you?!

I fail to see how this was the only option open to him to help his brother out, sure he did it out of love etc but the brain is there for a reason

[Waylander]

...sorry he Yanks do it and look at their judicial system.....okay you are sentenced to death but we will let you think about it for a few years......we will let you appeal as much as you like cause we are nice like that and then your time is up.......
Wich causes a masive backup in the system so that cases that are time important and such(like family courts and adoption processes) get pushed off or short changed because the judges have to hurry up for the next case.

[Colapop]

Please don't let this descend into a debate about the right's and wrongs of the issue. I'm not trying to debate the outcome of whether he'd got away with it or not.

Can no one put themselves in a pair of shoes labelled, "I will do anything to help someone I care about" irespective of the consequences? Can no one honestly look inside and say that they've done stupid things for similar reasons, but only escaped a similar punishment because the actions they took didn't require intervention at an authoritative government level? Or the flat out got away with it?

Has the guy not heard of getting a loan to pay his brothers debts? If he cared that much he'd put his brother in a shack in the outback to go cold turkey. How the hell could he justify contiuing to kill his brother by smuggling the drugs that are killing his brother? Now the family has lost two sons.

[zadok]

The 'Bali Nine' could be lumped into the a similar bracket as this fella. They reckon they were forced into it with theats and had heaps of heroin strapped to their bodies. Death by firing squad over there.

[ManDownUnder]

Can no one put themselves in a pair of shoes labelled, "I will do anything to help someone I care about" irespective of the consequences? Can no one honestly look inside and say that they've done stupid things for similar reasons, but only escaped a similar punishment because the actions they took didn't require intervention at an authoritative government level? Or the flat out got away with it?

Yeah I can.

I also learned that the "best idea" and the "best thing to do" are two separate things. It was a good idea for this guy to help his twin, but the best thing to do would have been get him home to Oz (Iassume the twin was in Singapore?) and get him help.

Put him in detox - it'd be hell on earth and he'd be fearing it ... BUT... get him the hell away from the shit. It would have been the right thing to do.

A question though - what would happen to his twin if he'd been caught in Singapore airport strung out? No drugs on him but either high, or strung out prior to getting on the plane?

Funnily enough I have a copy of the "Repbulic of Singapore Disembarkation/Embarkation form for Visitors - Welcome to Singapore" on my noticeboard

In big red captial letters, bottom left it says

WARNING
DEATH FOR DRUG TRAFFICKERS
UNDER SINGAPORE LAW

[James Deuce]

I'm actually quite disheartened that most people who've responded can't see how he got there. I'm not apologising for him, I'm not supporting him, I'm not denying that he was stupid (as I've said over, and over, and over), I'm not denying that he "earned" his sentence, barbarous as it is - can you not see how his plight would have landed him there? Are you all so non-self aware that you can't see that smuggling drugs to Singapore, or through Singapore, is driven by the same testosterone and "immortality" urge that drives all young men to risk taking? He was 22 and bullet-proof. It wasn't going to happen to him, and he could fix all his family problems in one go.

Social services? You must be joking. Your twin owes the Triads money for drugs. I'll go tell the cops then shall I? Think about how you would react when a family member's life is threatened, by a criminal organisation with no scruples. How the hell do you respond rationally? Can you not see how stupid decision after stupid decision would pile up in that situation?

[James Deuce]

Has the guy not heard of getting a loan to pay his brothers debts? If he cared that much he'd put his brother in a shack in the outback to go cold turkey. How the hell could he justify contiuing to kill his brother by smuggling the drugs that are killing his brother? Now the family has lost two sons.

I challenge you to remain rational in that situation.

[Sniper]

k, i think i've really missed a key thing here. what good was he doing?

is it meant to be this bit?:
His botched smuggling run was meant to generate cash to pay the debts of his drug-addicted twin.

Yep, he was trying to help his twin, I think it was a nobel act but he could have found a legit means.

[DMNTD]

...I think it was a nobel act but he could have found a legit means.

Thank you Sniper.

[Colapop]

My sister had a boyfriend (father of her 2 kids) heavily involved in the drug trade (class A shit) after he put a shotgun under her chin and threatened to blow her head off I was tempted to do the same, right to the point of me standing outside their back door with loaded gun in my f&+*cking hands. There are other options. Argue the rights and wrongs of capital punishment but don't assume he didn't have other options.

[Yokai]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3498636a10,00.html
Read it and then tell me that you didn't feel something for this man.


Yeah, I feel something for this man. I am saddened by the use of the death penalty. But - if your brother is in debt because of his drug addiction, wouldn't you try and do something about it without resorting to smuggling drugs? I would. I'd be happy to give all I could, but to actually put more of the stuff that I could see damaging my own brother on the street to damage OTHER people's brothers? I couldn't do it... I really couldn't.

We don't know the facts surrounding the entire thing, of course. It might have been that it was a question of "smuggle this and you and your brother are free of debt from me, the drug kingpin of all Yarra. If you don't we'll kill your entire family..." or it could have been "Sh*t dude - you owe 25,000 Aussie Dollars? - we'd better smuggle drugs!"

Dunno - it's definitely food for thought though... I hope that his Family is fine and that this is the last death that they suffer for a good long while.

[bugjuice]

Yep, he was trying to help his twin, I think it was a nobel act but he could have found a legit means.
no, it was a dumbass act.


I'm actually quite disheartened that most people who've responded can't see how he got there. I'm not apologising for him, I'm not supporting him, I'm not denying that he was stupid (as I've said over, and over, and over), I'm not denying that he "earned" his sentence, barbarous as it is - can you not see how his plight would have landed him there? Are you all so non-self aware that you can't see that smuggling drugs to Singapore, or through Singapore, is driven by the same testosterone and "immortality" urge that drives all young men to risk taking? He was 22 and bullet-proof. It wasn't going to happen to him, and he could fix all his family problems in one go.

Social services? You must be joking. Your twin owes the Triads money for drugs. I'll go tell the cops then shall I? Think about how you would react when a family member's life is threatened, by a criminal organisation with no scruples. How the hell do you respond rationally? Can you not see how stupid decision after stupid decision would pile up in that situation?
Still boils down to one thing tho, doesn't it? Drugs. It's all going back to drugs drugs drugs.. Neither he nor the twin just dropped into it one morning. There would have been a series of events which probably were getting worse and worse which led to this. And they kept going the wrong way instead of doing the right thing. Yes, help by all means, but help the right way, not with more drugs and getting yourself shot for it. I'd bend over backwards to do the right thing, but who in their right f'in mind would think 'hey, I'll just nip over the ditch and get you some more.. Need anything else while I'm gone?' Pfft, dumbass to even think about getting it that far.

Can they honestly say, no matter how old they are, that they sat down and really thought it thru? That they knew the risks and chances of getting caught? That they knew all the risks and issues associated with drugs? That they knew that there was 'nothing else' they could have done? cowpoos..

[duckman]

I challenge you to remain rational in that situation.
Jim, What would you have done in his situation ??

[James Deuce]

Jim, What would you have done in his situation ??

Something pretty irrational. I'm horribly self-aware, and I know I would have screwed up. I always do when I'm under mega-personal stress.

[kerryg]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3498636a10,00.html

Read it and then tell me that you didn't feel something for this man.



You can dress it up as fraternal love or what you like but I feel no empathy for him whatsoever. He had 400gms of heroin on him, enough for 26000-odd doses. He put the welfare of 1 individual, his brother, a drug addict deeply in debt to his criminal suppliers ahead of the welfare of who knows how many people? It was a grossly selfish act, his twin brother or our children....you choose.. You can't justify it from any angle.

I feel for his mother though. And capital punishment is barbarism.

[Sniper]

He was only human. It just proves that nobody is perfect. Im still in trouble from the day I found out my 14yr old sister was taking party pills. The guy who sold them to her will never move his elbow properly and Im fucking lucky I don't have a police record in Aus cause of it.

I realise there were other ways to deal with the situation, but my want to look after my family was too strong. I can see what got this guy into trouble and I can see where Jim is coming from.

[Hitcher]

The issue here, surely, is the penalty. I believe that no person has the right to kill another, including as "punishment" for murder or other crimes involving the death of others. Countries that espouse and routinely practice death penalties are barbaric and have no place in a civilised world, particularly those that should know better, such as the United States of America. They should be treated with appropriate scorn and derision.

There is no evidence anywhere to suggest that capital punishment acts as a deterent for criminals, including terrorists. There is no retribution for people wrongfully convicted. And "revenge killing" should not be encouraged or practiced by governments.

I note a recent news item that State legislatures in the USA have, in total, murdered 1,000 people since the Supreme Court allowed the reintroduction of the death penalty in 1976. Appalling.

[spudchucka]

Nguyen Tuong Van, 25, was arrested at Changi Airport with 396.2 grams of heroin strapped to his body. His botched smuggling run was meant to generate cash to pay the debts of his drug-addicted twin.
Isn't it ironic, don't ya think...






I feel sorry for him but really, what the hell was he thinking?

[sAsLEX]

There is no evidence anywhere to suggest that capital punishment acts as a deterent for criminals, including terrorists.


exactly, making them live with pigs and only having pork and bacon to eat would offend them far greater than being made in to a Martyr

[Yokai]

I believe that no person has the right to kill another, including as "punishment" ...
Me either - if murder is wrong then state-sanctioned murder is wrong



Countries that espouse and routinely practice death penalties are barbaric and have no place in a civilised world, particularly those that should know better, such as the United States of America.

:hitcher:
Hmmm - slight issue here - the USA has allowed the individual state to manage its sentencing and punishment. While as you state:

State legislatures in the USA have, in total, murdered 1,000 people since the Supreme Court allowed the reintroduction of the death penalty in 1976.
it is not a federally imposed sentence. It is specifically up to the states. There are very few federally imposed sentences - it is up to the federal legislature to govern the consistency of the law, NOT the consistency of the punishment. There are reasons for this - the largest being that imposing a massive federal system would be slow, cumbersome and far more prone to abuse than a decentralised system that can be audited by federal agents.

The Death Row problem is arguably because of bleeding heart liberals like me. If the federal government reduced the number of appeals in capital cases to the same as in state felonies, then the queues would be shortened and the "cruel and unusual" would no longer be "unusual" (I'll ignore the "cruel" bit). If you have a state that says "death to mimes!" and commits that sentence within 3 weeks of 3rd appeal (as felony sentencing is currently SUPPOSED to be carried out in the 48 contiguous states), then only a few mimes are on death row...

More important in this situation is the removal of the process which led to this poor unfortunate making such a bad decision or series of decisions.

[Sensei]

Just wondering how you would feel if these Drug's where to be put into one of your own Kid's ARM & then have them Die !! Fuck the Munter He knew now he Pay's with His Life !! not the Poor people that where going to Shoot it up ! Let him Die Quickly .

[*sic]

rip... not cool but he took his chances and has now paid the price

[Biff]

I know where you're coming from Jim, however I, like most sane people, wouldn't dream of importing drugs to a country that carried a mandatory death sentence just to help my brother out with some debt. And an evil, nasty drug at that.

If he'd just driven down Orchard road (in Sing), bought a shit load of MP3 players and brought them back here he'd have made some decent money selling them legally. Tis what I do. Tis what loads of people on Trade Me do.

I do feel sorry for his family though, and I couldn't help thinking about this guy and his poor family this morning when I awoke. I hope his family find the strength to help them through this horrendous time. Especially his brother - who must really feel like shit for being told he was the reason his brother was importing drugs, and because of which his brother must now be executed. Thanks bro.

[**R1**]

This is just me but .....I love my family and would do anything, and I mean anything... to help them out bad or good, some of us are blessed with the brains to solve problems in a sensible manner and some of us are not, plain and simple, I mean if some drug dealing gangsters were going to fuk you and your fammily up over a dept, but offered you a way out wouldnt ya take it?? risky or not, if you couldnt see any other way out im sure you would, I bet he didnt ask his brother to tick up a bunch of drugs....

Im not sure I agree with the death penalty for drugs, for murder and kiddy fidling sure... but thats just my opinion, argue all ya like I dont care!!

I bet he's shitting him self about now:doh: it was a dumb arse thing to do sure, but so is speeding, wheelies, runners, drink driving, and how many of us have never dun any of those.....

[kerryg]

I believe that no person has the right to kill another, including as "punishment" for murder or other crimes involving the death of others.

Hitcher, I really could not agree with you more.

I read somwehere that George Orwell, when he was a journalist, attended an execution and as the condemned man was escorted to the gallows he carefully avoided stepping in a puddle. At that moment Orwell decided that the death penalty was not something that one human should visit on another, that there is some inherent human dignity, that there is some inviolable prohibition that the death penalty violates.

Let criminals be imprisoned, let them make reparation, give something back pehaps...but civilised communities do not kill fellow humans in cold blood.

[The_Dover]

I don't agree with the death penalty for smuggling offences, would you expect to be put to death for taking a bottle of scotch into a muslim country? Murder and rape yes, and some other violent crimes but not drugs smuggling.

Drugs are bad, mm'kay?

Fuck up, alcohol is just as evil and ruins many more lifes worldwide but we still all hit the piss at the weekends. Fuck even Queen Vic liked to chase the dragon but the modern world has demonised a lot of narcotic use because some churchie wanker decided it wasn't good, mm'kay. I don't condone the use of class A's by any means and I think people need to be better educated as to the risks and effects but the biggest killer in all of this is society. Most rich drug addicts don't die, the poor ones do.

[WRT]

My 2 cents - to want to help your family is noble, and its a cold hearted person that says otherwise. To smuggle drugs, especially into somewhere such as Singapore is stupid, dangerous and wrong in more ways that you can count. He knew the risks, he knew the punishment if it all went wrong. He himself apparently came to terms with this before his death (assuming it went ahead at 11:00 our time), I hope his family can do the same.

You wont find me campaigning to get people in his shoes released from their sentence, but I do feel saddened by the whole situation, by his predicament, his brothers, the rest of his family, the state of the legal system in Singapore, the drug trade and society in general. There are some great evils out there, and ones that must be addressed - by us all.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke.

[kerryg]

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke.

Curious choice of quote though. Are you saying that NOT smuggling 400g of heroin would be analogous to "a good man doing nothing"? Or, turn it around: a good man would smuggle heroin in the same circumstances as this condemned fellow? I struggle a bit with that analogy.

[inlinefour]

I have absolutely NO simpathy what so ever for the idiot. I work with people most days that drugs have at least partially ruined their lives. One more down, pleanty to go...:doh:

[scumdog]

The issue here, surely, is the penalty. I believe that no person has the right to kill another, including as "punishment" for murder or other crimes involving the death of others.

Hopefully that also includes those that sell drugs knowing that a certain amount of their 'clients' will die from those drugs - or possibly kill some other person to obtain the drugs and/or money to buy said drugs???

The 'need' to kill the criminals would be severely reduced if certian individuals decided societies rules did not apply to them.
I guess those with a lemmings self preservation intincts tend to do things that the rest of us know will result in our lives being terminated - but still act surprised when it is THEIR life on the line?
I guess the types above are the ones that stuck forks in the three-pin power socket when younger....

No problem with him being allowed to live and stay in prison IF his family (his druggie brother?) paid for his existence for the 20 odd years he would be in prison. (See, I have a heart after all!)

[scumdog]

Yep, he was trying to help his twin, I think it was a nobel act but he could have found a legit means.

'Helping his twin' is stretched a bit when the value of the drug far exceeded the sum owed by his brother imho, but hey, what do I know??.

[ManDownUnder]

'Helping his twin' is stretched a bit when the value of the drug far exceeded the sum owed by his brother imho, but hey, what do I know??.

Yeah but... if I did something like that I'd have no idea what the shit is worth anyway. I'd probably carry too much to make sure I had enough, but little enough that I'd "get away with it".

Who knows, ignorance and/or stupidity hgave come into play on this one in a number of dimensions

[scumdog]

Yeah but... if I did something like that I'd have no idea what the shit is worth anyway. I'd probably carry too much to make sure I had enough, but little enough that I'd "get away with it".

Who knows, ignorance and/or stupidity hgave come into play on this one in a number of dimensions

And so the gene pool is about to be improved!:thud: , see there IS a silver lining in every cloud!

[WRT]

Curious choice of quote though. Are you saying that NOT smuggling 400g of heroin would be analogous to "a good man doing nothing"? Or, turn it around: a good man would smuggle heroin in the same circumstances as this condemned fellow? I struggle a bit with that analogy.

The quote was following up on my second paragraph, rather than the first. More aimed at the whole drug trade/culture in general, rather than this one incident.

However, you could apply it to this scenario as well, if you were on the side of the condemned man. He saw his brother being tormented by an evil, and rather than sit by and do nothing, he attempted (in a very, very misguided way) to help. A detached and rational man (or woman) would have been able to see that his actions were NOT going to help, but unfortunately he thought it would. Silly him, he has paid the price for his foolishness.

[MacD]

I'm actually quite disheartened that most people who've responded can't see how he got there. I'm not apologising for him, I'm not supporting him, I'm not denying that he was stupid (as I've said over, and over, and over), I'm not denying that he "earned" his sentence, barbarous as it is - can you not see how his plight would have landed him there? Are you all so non-self aware that you can't see that smuggling drugs to Singapore, or through Singapore, is driven by the same testosterone and "immortality" urge that drives all young men to risk taking? He was 22 and bullet-proof. It wasn't going to happen to him, and he could fix all his family problems in one go.

Social services? You must be joking. Your twin owes the Triads money for drugs. I'll go tell the cops then shall I? Think about how you would react when a family member's life is threatened, by a criminal organisation with no scruples. How the hell do you respond rationally? Can you not see how stupid decision after stupid decision would pile up in that situation?

I understand exactly what you are trying to say and agree. People get themselves caught up in all sorts of situations from which they fail to see any rational escape. This case happens to involve drugs and Singapore. If the death penalty actually worked as a deterrent why did he try to smuggle drugs in? Why do people still commit murder in the USA? Because these acts are not rational and the death penalty is not a deterrent, it is really just state-sanctioned revenge (insert appropriate justification here -"eye for eye" etc).

I also find it interesting how many people on this site are willing to accept the "drugs are bad" argument but reject the "speeding is bad" argument, both of which are neither quite as black and white as suggested by the slogans. If you are looking for a drug that has a significant negative effect on society look no further than alcohol. Yet I intend to go to the pub tonight...

[vifferman]

Reading all these replies, I'm glad I didn't proffer an opinion. The issue's too complex, too hard for me.

[scumdog]

Reading all these replies, I'm glad I didn't proffer an opinion. The issue's too complex, too hard for me.

Don't let that get you down, just post any old shit you want! (I'm sure half the other buggers on this site do that most of the time!)

Besides, regardless of you opinion the bugger's still dead.

[emaN]

Just wondering how you would feel if these Drug's where to be put into one of your own Kid's ARM & then have them Die !! Fuck the Munter He knew now he Pay's with His Life !! not the Poor people that where going to Shoot it up ! Let him Die Quickly .

"not the poor people that were going to shoot it up"

he was supposedly trying to 'help out' one of those 'poor people'. if his story is to be believed, he wasn't gonna hand it over to his bro and tell him to knock hisself out - the monies 'earned' were to get his bro outta trouble.
yeh, silly him for couriering (sp?) it thru a Death Penalty country...he knew the consequences, he's paid the price.

The State of Singapore, however, has a long way to go; stupidly high fines for spitting? fines for dropping a wrapper?
I saw the last few minutes of an item on late night news re a local doctor who's "arms and tongue are tied", and is very unpopular with the State for his views on freedom of speech and all... An unhealthy environment to live in, for sure!

I think i'm with Jim2 on this one..

[scumdog]

"
The State of Singapore, however, has a long way to go; stupidly high fines for spitting? fines for dropping a wrapper?
I saw the last few minutes of an item on late night news re a local doctor who's "arms and tongue are tied", and is very unpopular with the State for his views on freedom of speech and all... An unhealthy environment to live in, for sure!

I think i'm with Jim2 on this one..

The State of New Zealand in 2083????????
The way this present Nanny gummint is going it's goodbye personal freedom so's we can all 'live' in a 'safe' environment!!!

[Yokai]

Don't let that get you down, just post any old shit you want! (I'm sure half the other buggers on this site do that most of the time!)

Aaarrgghhhh! My secret's out - I'm meeeeelllllltttttttttiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnggggg!

[James Deuce]

Just to clarify, here is no need to apologise (inlinefour) for not expressing sympathy. This post was about recognising the pathos of the situation, and at no point have I made a judgement on what he did, the legal process in Singapore, or the death penalty, nor have I required that anyon else do so.

I just wanted to try and illustrate that it is all more complex than our more vengeful instincts tell us it should be, and that we don't challenge our assumptions often or deeply enough.

[Yokai]

vengeful instincts

Don't think that I've heard it put quite so succinctly. Apparently, according to research that was spouted in a huge protest against Texas' capital punishment policy, such a policy is not about punishing or deterring criminals but is about having a community see that "justice" has been done...

[scumdog]

It's not so much about vengeful instincts Jim2, it's more "there's a consequence, you knew it - now you face it" there was no ambush or surprises for this guy (barring being caught) and it is not that he can claim he didn't know what he was doing.

You jump out of a plane without a parachute you know there is a consequence, right or wrong, 'fairness' does not come into it. :spudwave:

[riffer]

Okay, I've sat on my hands all day reading this thread.

Yes, to kill another person is wrong. We all agree.

The drugs smuggled were not intended to be used to make anyone's lives better.

At the end of the day, it's like Russian Roulette. Plenty of people think this kind of thing only happens to other people. But it doesn't. It could happen to any of us.

I am trying to reconcile this whole situation by thinking of another ethically difficult situation which was used by the Nazis, Chechens, Coats, Serbs and plenty of others.

You have a choice. Here is a gun. Kill this man, or we kill you. This guy's choice was not that different.

I have family members currently struggling with addictions. But I would never transport drugs to solve their problems.

Heroin is a weapon of mass descruction.

He made a bad choice.

And paid with his life.

I hope his brother enjoys his next fix.

Arsehole junkie. :angry:

[bugjuice]

What's this 'it could happen to any of us' crap?
who is going to do that shit? not me. if that's this 'us', then count me out. It'll only happen to the dicks that think they can smuggle drugs and get away with it. Now, quick show of hands...



thought as much.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4487366.stm

[manuboy]

I have absolutely NO simpathy what so ever for the idiot. I work with people most days that drugs have at least partially ruined their lives. One more down, pleanty to go...:doh:

Then don't feel sympathy for him, how bout feeling it for the people left behind who now have to cope with the loss eminating from this guys fuck up.

It's like i could feel sympathy for the people you mention if they were affected indirectly, like family - but i'd feel no sympathy for the user cos they were dumb enough to let their lives be ruined from their own actions.

[James Deuce]

It's not so much about vengeful instincts Jim2, it's more "there's a consequence, you knew it - now you face it" there was no ambush or surprises for this guy (barring being caught) and it is not that he can claim he didn't know what he was doing.

You jump out of a plane without a parachute you know there is a consequence, right or wrong, 'fairness' does not come into it. :spudwave:

Yes, but that isn't the point I'm trying to make at all. I'm not sympathising with his plight, I'm saying that there but for the grace of God go I.

[scumdog]

Yes, but that isn't the point I'm trying to make at all. I'm not sympathising with his plight, I'm saying that there but for the grace of God go I.

You smuggled drugs into Singapore??:blink: :blink: :blink: :thud:

[James Deuce]

What's this 'it could happen to any of us' crap?
who is going to do that shit? not me. if that's this 'us', then count me out. It'll only happen to the dicks that think they can smuggle drugs and get away with it. Now, quick show of hands...



thought as much.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4487366.stm

Right now in your rational mind, sitting at your computer, with less in the way of Hobson's choice in front of you that that kid was facing, then I agree with the sentiment.

Please don't forget that I asked, and have continued to ask that this thread isn't about discussing the relative merits of the Death penalty, sympathising with the chap executed today, or discussing the merits of hardcore anti-drug legislation and sentencing.

I'm pleased to see that some people understand what I was on about. I was hoping for a commentary on human nature, but got that and more, so it has been fascinating to say the least.

[bugjuice]

I understand what you're saying Jim, and the reason why you posted this up, and I respect your views on the this guy and his predicament. But, saying nothing about the drugs or the penalty or the country etc, yes he might have had the best intentions at heart, but he is so stupid to have done it, that I'm sure this probably wasn't the first time in trouble, drug related or not. If he wanted to help his brother, then there's a thousand other ways that would have been so much better. I'm in debt, I ain't bringin in no damn drugs.. see, ain't hard, ay?
Sorry, no sympathy from me. If it was planted, then fine. But he knew full well.

[Lou Girardin]

In effect he gave his life for his brother. He probably wasn't paid anything by the loan sharks who were into his brother for dope money.
I wonder if other drug pushers should face the death penalty for the misery they bring.
You know who, Doug Myers and the other liquor and tobacco barons. Michael Erceg was probably the worst of them, he deliberately targeted young people with his low alcohol spirits and alcopops.

[scumdog]

In effect he gave his life for his brother. He probably wasn't paid anything by the loan sharks who were into his brother for dope money.
I wonder if other drug pushers should face the death penalty for the misery they bring.
You know who, Doug Myers and the other liquor and tobacco barons. Michael Erceg was probably the worst of them, he deliberately targeted young people with his low alcohol spirits and alcopops.

Gotta agree with you Lou re Erceg, when you see the number of (mainly younger females) teenagers who get drunk and out of control and into so much shit after drinking these alco-pop lolly-water drinks you feel that he met his Kharma.
He didn't do it for the pleasure of seeing happy young faces, he did it for the MONEY!!!!:mad:

Make everybody start their drinking on straight rough whiskey until the age of 25 - THEN we'll see a lot less drunk youths!! :beer:

[2much]

Fuck his luck. He ran the risk, he got caught, he pays the price... sux to be dumb.

As for those he left behind, well if his mother's got one druggie son and the other's smuggling drugs then she's obviously a fucken useless mother and has noone else to blame but herself.... perhaps it'll serve as a wake up call for her.

Bottom line: There's a hell of alot of of people out there more worthy of your pity than this piece of shit and his family. Let him rot in hell for all I care.

Fuck 'em.

[badlieutenant]

can anyone here actually say for sure that the various illegal drugs cost, in terms of damage to society (Im not thinking just economically either), more than alcohol and tobacco. Or even just alcohol on its own.
My guess is the little kids and wives who are beaten by thier drunk and abusive husbands and fathers would argue not. Or the people who clean up accidents involving drunk drivers (scumdog ? )the list goes on.
It seems to me that very few arguments are ever so cut and dried as we would like them to be.
In fact the thing that pisses me most off these days are the people who will loudly proclaim rights and wrongs about all and sundry (not just this topic) without ever really knowing all the facts, or worse, assigning a stereotype quickly based on one incident.
for example : "all drug dealers are bad" bollicks to that. context is everything.
I have met a few dealers before. They were nice people.
I can hear the arguments brewing already so before they start ill give thier situation some context.
They grew pot and sold it to adults who they knew personally.They didn't deal any other drugs. They can still be classified as dealers. They had jobs and paid taxes.
oops I got a bit off topic in very short time considering I don't post so much these days.
I'm anticipating someone like scumdog or speedmedic would have a good feel or at least make a good guess at the answer regarding the cost of legal drugs to society vs illicit.

[Krayy]

He was only ~21 when he was caught. Mst of us at 21 weren't the sharpest pencil in the box (hell, I'm still nowhere near it), and did the most stupid and irrational things at that time. The fact that he believed his brother was in mortal danger and that this was his only recourse is sad in that he couldn't approach the rest of his family or external agencies to fix the problem.

That being said, it's pretty much common knowledge that any kind of drug smuggling into Asia carries the harshest penalties and has been widely publicised for years (particularly in Australia) from the media, film (Bangkok Hilton) and other case studies. The fact that he made the choice, even under duress, and has now paid the ultimate price is, to me, a damn stupid way waste of life both on his, and the Singaporean governments part.

And no hugs with his mother, gimmee a damn break.

[Pillick]

I think its a shame that he died for stupidity and good intentions. The only way I think the death penalty can be justified is if someone is unrepentant and will be a danger to society for the rest of their lives (hmm and that can never be proved, people can change and deserve the chance to if that chance can be given without endangering others).

I mean, do you honestly think this guy was worthless? A lost cause? Why throw him away? He could have done something with his life still, hanging him was such a waste. Someone said he had 200,000 odd doses of heroin - why not put him in a rehabilitation center to work until he's treated 200,000 odd addicts, starting with his brother?

[FROSTY]

This one has me in a total moral dilema.
On one hand -Killing a human being-- I can't think of any reason at any time killing is an option.
On the other hand a clear message has been sent out -take drugs into singapore and YOU will die.Really cut and dried .
I also think of the lives saved by the simple fact this particular chain of misery has been stopped.Yea its only a drop in the bucket but it could be you,your sister,your brother who's life was just saved cos theres one less druggie out there on the streets.

[judgeshock]

He should'nt have been trying to help someone with a drug habit, as we all know the only person that can help a druggie is themself.
If the brother was going to get killed for his choices, tough shit. Two wrongs don't make a right.
No sympathy here.:nono:

[scumdog]

can anyone here actually say for sure that the various illegal drugs cost, in terms of damage to society (Im not thinking just economically either), more than alcohol and tobacco. Or even just alcohol on its own.


I have a short answer to those that think alcohol is worse than drugs, some drug dealers are o.k.etc etc ad nauseum...

We already have a shark in the effin' swimming pool - so now you want to add a crocodile/replace the shark with one????

Both are bad (even though I have the odd tiple) but the gummint has decided that alcohol is legal but drugs are not.

Get over it and get use to it.

[SPman]

There can often be a point in a persons life, where, being faced with seemingly insurmountable problems, choice - any choice - to remedy the situation in any way possible, is not a rational process. A lot of people are talking as though this is a rational, reasoned thought - I'll go smuggle some drugs to pay this off - no sweat!
My betting is the triads were putting heavy pressure on the brothers - if not the whole family, over the debt - and they are not known for there niceties and offered the guy a courier run, to redeem his brothers debts and save nasty consequences being meted out to him and or his family. People do seemingly totally irrational things when faced with extreme stress - when the situation is abnormal, the abnormal becomes normal - Why do people put a gun to their heads and kill themselves - because their thought processes are not normal (trust me - I've been there).Taking a giant gamble, like this guy did, would probably have seemed like a godsend and, of course he wouldnt get caught. Downstream affects as to the moral ethics of smuggling drugs would probably not have been a consideration.The focus would have been on paying off the debt - in all likelyhood, the whole run would have been set up for him and he would not have even seen any proceeds of the drug money, other than a wiped slate and more pressure to do it again....
He would probably know at a deep level it was wrong, but self justification for wrong doing is very commonplace and a powerful driver - take the US government cabal as an example........
I know, that in a similar situation, I couldnt be relied upon not to do something equally stupid! I would like to think I wouldnt, but, when push comes to shove, I dont think any of us could say for certain, in our rational mindstates, exactly how we would react!

[badlieutenant]

I have a short answer to those that think alcohol is worse than drugs, some drug dealers are o.k.etc etc ad nauseum...

We already have a shark in the effin' swimming pool - so now you want to add a crocodile/replace the shark with one????

Both are bad (even though I have the odd tiple) but the gummint has decided that alcohol is legal but drugs are not.

Get over it and get use to it.

eeer nothing to get over ? :/ (you had one or two already ?)
So in short you cant say if either is more expensive to our society or not ??
And as for your shark croc analogy I think you missed the point there SD.
I didn't approve of the drug dealers (in regards to pot growers) actions, I was trying to point out that not everyone who does a bad thing is a bad person.
Shall I say context again ?
SPman gave a good example.
just because a government says something is wrong or right isnt going to make me just accept it
I might even question it

[manuboy]

As for those he left behind, well if his mother's got one druggie son and the other's smuggling drugs then she's obviously a fucken useless mother and has noone else to blame but herself.... perhaps it'll serve as a wake up call for her.

Ordinarily i'd agree with you, but once people reach a certain age they're autonomous - they make their own choices and play by their own rules. You're jumping the gun to think you can draw a line between her parenting skills and her sons actions. Maybe she's not the best, maybe she is. At best its a guess.

Like you've never seen a parent heart broken (and a little confused) at the choices their children made.

Regardless - she deserves more than she's getting in this thread.

[scumdog]

I was trying to point out that not everyone who does a bad thing is a bad person.
Shall I say context again ?.
just because a government says something is wrong or right isnt going to make me just accept it
I might even question it

Eh?? If someone does a 'bad' thing then that makes them 'bad' don't you think?? otherwise why say their actions are bad???
"Oh yes, he does lots of bad things but is actually a good person". :crazy:
And sure, question the government, don't accept what they say but also be prepared for the consequences if you act on it.

[Dafe]

I totally feel for the guy and his family & friends!
The Singapore Govt say he wasn't a pawn, I believe he was!
He is not a mastermind behind drug operations, he was shifting the drugs for an incredibly generous cause, his brothers problems!
How many people do you know that would risk life and limb for somebody elses sake? Obviously a most generous and caring young man.
I'm disgusted at the Singaporean Govt for seeing the young mans death penalty through.
I think he should have been imprisoned for perhaps 10 years at the most and then handed over to the Australian Govt.
What a waste of a life!
Using a wonderful persons life as an example to deter the real criminals!

I say hang the Masterminds of drug operations!
Hang Child Molesters!
Hang Rapists!
Hang Murderers!

Lockup or castrate sex offenders (that are not child molestors or rapists!)
Lockup Drug Trafficers.

Firing squad for all other crime! e.g. petty theft, careless driving and swearing in public!

[Dafe]

Eh?? If someone does a 'bad' thing then that makes them 'bad' don't you think?? otherwise why say their actions are bad???
"Oh yes, he does lots of bad things but is actually a good person". :crazy:
And sure, question the government, don't accept what they say but also be prepared for the consequences if you act on it.

I say he is a good person who did a bad thing! Not a bad person at all!
He did what you and I wouldn't. We would not risk our lives for a beloved one as he did, we are not as compassionate as he was.
It would take somebody with a most immensely generous heart to carry out what he did.

[scumdog]

I say he is a good person who did a bad thing! Not a bad person at all!
He did what you and I wouldn't. We would not risk our lives for a beloved one as he did, we are not as compassionate as he was.
It would take somebody with a most immensely generous heart to carry out what he did.

Pardon me being so cynical (got a black belt in Cynicism) but I bet the "doing it for my brother" was only PART of the story - the part that cause the media frenzy. Frikkin' loser is in a better place and MAYBE sent a message to others... (I doubt it though)

If he had got away with it I bet the parents/loved ones etc of junkies using the crap he couriered would have thought he was sooo noble for doing what he did. (Yeah right!)

It would take a junky with a drug-addled mind to do what he did - and probably a bit of greed.

I noticed his brother for whom he died was overcome by gratitude and grief (chuck in another Tuis moment here) The brothers biggest concern would have been how he was going to get HIS sorry arse out of the pickle he got it into.


If he had got away with it I bet the parents/loved ones etc of junkies using the crap he couriered would have thought he was sooo noble for doing what he did. (Yeah right!)

[Sniper]

The Singapore Govt say he wasn't a porn, I say he was!


Its Pawn, as in a chess game. Hehe, we know what you like to do in your spare time.

[Lou Girardin]

He was the eldest son. In Vietnamese culture he takes the place of his Father and he was responsible for his brother.
Good to see that Singapore is still investing heavily in Myanmar, a country well known for it's corruption and use of drug profits to prop up it's economy.

[TLDV8]

I havn't read the whole thread but have been in Australia for the last week,its been on all the channels news and has been milked for all it is worth...the verdict,the majority of Australians don't care going by the polls...No one flies all the way to Singapore on a whim,you would have plenty of time to think about what you are about to do and what the consequences would be if caught,this guy elected to wager with the grim reaper giving no thought it seems to what was going to happen to this shit when he bought it back...that being it is going to add to the misery of others caught in a addiction,something he was familiar with already but was prepared to still do... Where is the accountibility that is so lacking these days ?......... The rules were plain,get caught and you may hang... not rocket science is it,not to mention the moral stand points.

I feel sorry for the family... no doubt the true reality of his actions were more than real when he started to drop...my own opinion,harsh or not,i feel no pity for this person,but hope his punishment will deter the next parasite from trying to capitalise on others.

Remembering this is about 396.2 grams of Heroin.

[Deano]

The State of Singapore, however, has a long way to go; stupidly high fines for spitting? fines for dropping a wrapper?



The State of New Zealand in 2083????????
The way this present Nanny gummint is going it's goodbye personal freedom so's we can all 'live' in a 'safe' environment!!!

You should check out your local council's bylaws - you'd be surprised at what you can be fined for. "Annoying Acts or Games" for example. "Inducing Loitering".

I agree fully with 'appropriate' fines for things such as littering - you only need to see the waterways and beaches to realise what pigs people are.

The bigger the population, the greater the potential problem. Isn't Singapore very clean and pristine for a small area with a large population ? (That's what I've heard, never been there)

[Dafe]

Isn't Singapore very clean and pristine for a small area with a large population ? (That's what I've heard, never been there)

I worked there for a while. I couldn't believe it when I walked down Orchard Road and came across an elderly couple mopping the gutters & pavement with their buckets & mops!! WTF?
Also, Public toilets in buildings have attendants who clean the toilets after every use! Usage costs about 1 NZ dollar, but very clean obviously!
Just check they have the toilet bowls first and not the gutters with a hose!

[Dafe]

Its Pawn, as in a chess game. Hehe, we know what you like to do in your spare time.

My Bike is my Porn!!! Just cum back from 5 hours of it! :tugger:
I wouldn't get too excited about your Porn though!

Come to think of it, I get 6 times what you're getting!:motu:

[marty]

The issue here, surely, is the penalty. I believe that no person has the right to kill another, including as "punishment" for murder or other crimes involving the death of others. Countries that espouse and routinely practice death penalties are barbaric and have no place in a civilised world, particularly those that should know better, such as the United States of America. They should be treated with appropriate scorn and derision.

There is no evidence anywhere to suggest that capital punishment acts as a deterent for criminals, including terrorists. There is no retribution for people wrongfully convicted. And "revenge killing" should not be encouraged or practiced by governments.

I note a recent news item that State legislatures in the USA have, in total, murdered 1,000 people since the Supreme Court allowed the reintroduction of the death penalty in 1976. Appalling.

in some ways you're right hitcher, but in my opinion, countries have every right to make laws and punsihments as they see fit. if that includes the death penalty, so be it. at least singapore does it in the open - not like many other asian countries. i am sure that yopu have travelled to these countries and seen the 'drug smuggling carries the death penalty' signs, and i wonder just what this or any other person thinks as they are planning a drug run through these places.

it's certainly put ME off carrying 10000 hits of heroin to singapore!

and where are all the crying aussies for the 10000 lives mr nguyen was prepared to infect, just so his brother didn't have any debt?

[marty]

Fuck even Queen Vic liked to chase the dragon but the modern world has demonised a lot of narcotic use because some churchie wanker decided it wasn't good, mm'kay. I don't condone the use of class A's by any means and I think people need to be better educated as to the risks and effects but the biggest killer in all of this is society. Most rich drug addicts don't die, the poor ones do.

chasing the dragon doesn't carry the death penalty. this guy had 25 times the amount for execution.

he should have done the mp3 thing...

[Cookie]

Err, not me. One less is problem minus 1.

[Wolf]

I can understand how he got himself into this mess and realise that he was doing it for good, but he could have found out some more legit means.
Agreed. Or at least smuggled drugs to countries that don't execute people for 15g of street quality H.

For me, becoming a drug runner would not even rate on the list of options. Honestly, I would sooner stand trial in Australia for killing the enforcers that came after my brother than become the dealers bitch - especially if they wanted me to take the shit into a place like Singapore. OK, so he was concerned for his brother - hell, I've been concerned for mine (we did think for some he wouldn't live to see 25), but that wouldn't turn me into a drug runner.

Whatever the motive, the fact remains he knew the consequences of being caught and still decided to risk it. From the article I gather he at least is more stoic about this than some of the other snivelling bastards that have run afoul of Singaporean law. "But you can't kill me, I'm a foreigner, your laws don't apply to me, this isn't a death penalty in my country, I've done nothing bad..."

I love my kids. If they got involved in drugs I would be highly concerned and would do whatever I could to get them off the drugs. If they owed shitloads to their dealer I would do my best to protect them from the initial consequences of their stupidity (being beaten or killed by enforcers) - rest assured there would still be consequences of my own devising, especially if I had to go into hock to pay off the dealer. I would not go out and smuggle drugs to anywhere, let alone a place that executes traffickers. If an enforcer came looking for my kids, I'd do what I could to stop him - with violence if necessary even though the consequences would be the emnity of a dealer and possible repercussions from the police.

Sure, I can understand his desire to help out his brother, but I cannot comprehend his choice - and it was his choice. Only morons go around spouting "I didn't have a choice". Having my brother or kids at risk of possibly violent retribution would probably keep me up for a week weighing up and looking for choices, but I'm sure I could find a few.