And the rats get more cunning

[wkid_one]

Sneaky cam: the new speed trap for drivers

06 March 2004 <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=5 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD height=5>http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/images/null.gif</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>By HAYDON DEWES

Wily drivers who slow down for speed cameras then resume speeding could soon be nabbed by linked cameras lurking further along the road.




The national road safety committee, made up of executives from the Land Transport Safety Authority, Transport Ministry, police, ACC and Transit, is considering a paper that looks at a range of options designed to cut speeding. It includes point-to-point cameras, which are being tried in Victoria and New South Wales and are used in Britain.

One camera digitally records the number plate of a vehicle as it passes, and a second camera further up the road takes another, time-recorded, snapshot.

If a motorist arrives at the second camera faster than the speed limit allows, the average speed is calculated and used as evidence of speeding.

Police national road policing manager Superintendent Steve Fitzgerald said the cameras were a good idea because they allowed police to pinpoint persistent offenders.

"In some respects they certainly identify those people who don't want to obey speed limits and it's not the occasional slip," he said.

However, the cameras would be a big investment. They were normally mounted on overbridges or gantries, which were not as common on New Zealand roads as overseas.

The committee would consider the paper this month and monitor the Australian trials during the next year.

[SPman]

The LTSA will probably slavishly follow Vicroads regardless of what any "study" shows. Unless they are totally independent, "studies" can be made to show, whatever you want them to show!

[Lou Girardin]

An incentive to take different routes to work. But, knowing the genius's at LTSA, they'll put them somewhere like, between the Harbour bridge and Market Rd.
Lou

[Yamahamaman]

Would that not mean that they would have to photograph every vehicle whether speeding or not?

If you don't have a primary reference then there is not way that you can have a control.

Unlikely to happen here without a huge cost outlay in technology. As far as I know (I prolly don't know that much) not all fixed camera installations are actually armed (equipped with camera full time) because of the costs involved, and the 'Establishment' is quite happy with the income from current installations.


Sneaky cam: the new speed trap for drivers

06 March 2004 <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=5 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD height=5>http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/images/null.gif</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>By HAYDON DEWES

Wily drivers who slow down for speed cameras then resume speeding could soon be nabbed by linked cameras lurking further along the road.




The national road safety committee, made up of executives from the Land Transport Safety Authority, Transport Ministry, police, ACC and Transit, is considering a paper that looks at a range of options designed to cut speeding. It includes point-to-point cameras, which are being tried in Victoria and New South Wales and are used in Britain.

One camera digitally records the number plate of a vehicle as it passes, and a second camera further up the road takes another, time-recorded, snapshot.

If a motorist arrives at the second camera faster than the speed limit allows, the average speed is calculated and used as evidence of speeding.

Police national road policing manager Superintendent Steve Fitzgerald said the cameras were a good idea because they allowed police to pinpoint persistent offenders.

"In some respects they certainly identify those people who don't want to obey speed limits and it's not the occasional slip," he said.

However, the cameras would be a big investment. They were normally mounted on overbridges or gantries, which were not as common on New Zealand roads as overseas.

The committee would consider the paper this month and monitor the Australian trials during the next year.

[spudchucka]

Even I'll admit that speed cameras suck.

I still reckon you've got to be pretty stupid to get nabbed by them though.

[Holy Roller]

Had a mate in a cage a jappa 4wd turbo fuel injected pocket rocket who regularly traveled between Rotorua and Auckland ( a decade ago) who was stopped one night returning from Auckland, and given a stern warning .... Aparently the cops in AK radioed down the line to watch out for the above mentioned pocket rocket giving the time seen departing. He had made really good time can't remember the details but that record stood for quite some time. (Not that I condone excessive speed
<_< .) :sweatdrop He was lucky to only get a warning.

[Jackrat]

Yep ,They have em' in Victoria.They call them safty Cams and are aimed mainly at the trucking industry.But I know from personal expereince they will also pick up a falcon Ute with a wide load sign on the roof. :rolleyes:

[SpankMe]

cunning? I don't think so. More like fascist police state. So were do you draw the line. It not easy when they just keep making small changes over the years. How many still and video cams looking at us are enough? Some are needed but if they just keep putting up more, in a few decades, or maybe centuries, our decedents will find themselves living in 1984. If we can’t decide now where the limit is and put it into law, then we never will.

[Lou Girardin]

Had a mate in a cage a jappa 4wd turbo fuel injected pocket rocket who regularly traveled between Rotorua and Auckland ( a decade ago) who was stopped one night returning from Auckland, and given a stern warning .... Aparently the cops in AK radioed down the line to watch out for the above mentioned pocket rocket giving the time seen departing. He had made really good time can't remember the details but that record stood for quite some time. (Not that I condone excessive speed
<_< .) :sweatdrop He was lucky to only get a warning.

That's how they nailed a Jag driver in the '60's. He did Auck to Wellington in around 6 1/2 hours when the road was crap and twisty. He boasted about it and they charged him based on average speed.
Lou

[kasper]

why slow down if you can see the camer in front of you then they cant see your number plate.

also if i am speedign and i see a camer facing the other way i congratulate them on catchign me (i dont slow down) and hope like hell that it has no film.

6 1/2 hours waht the hell dd he do ride the jag on two wheels!?

[merv]

Spud its stuff like this that pisses us off about the Police. Yeah sure they are only doing their job and its really the politicians driving the law so how do we get Don Brash to get the polls up on an anti-anti-speed campaign. Reason I say this is not that I speed excessively or anything but having had my licence 34 years (never had an insurance claim the whole time either)now I believe I am fairly experienced at driving/riding to suit the conditions and my ability, but if I get pinged for driving my Landcruiser down an empty Wellington motorway at 113km/hr and such silly little breaches of the law it pisses me off. I preferred it when the cops could use discretion. Before this latest HP crew were employed the Police proper were doing the highway stuff too. One night back then I was pulled up for doing 130km/hr in the car on the empty motorway and got pulled up and got told just to take it easy - was about 10:30pm and I guess main thing he was looking for was how drunk I was (not at all of course because I hardly drink). Now there's this zero tolerance shit and it makes no sense. If its safe to drive the motorway at 100km/hr in a cyclone (camera won't ping you if you are doing 100) then surely its safe to drive over that speed on a clear quiet night. Its not like Cinderellas slippers and it doesn't turn to custard at the magic stroke of 100 on your speedo. There is no logic in the approach being taken and most people know it, hence they drive to suit the road theya re on. I have said before a few cops I know are bikers and they do not ride slow. Go figure how can you have a job that really makes you a hypocrite?

Just as an aside I remember being at the Solway Hotel back a few years ago and the WD & HO Wills dudes were having a conference there too - just about killed us if our group got anywhere near them because of the smoke. Those dudes were dedicated to their business - that's commitment.

I don't see the cops as committed to the policies they are enforcing and eventually something's gotta change. One solution would be for the pollies to introduce much higher speed limits on the roads that can take it (like Italy) and leave those that can't at the lower limit. Maybe time based too much as is done with the Ngauranga Gorge system at the moment, but damn that should be back to 100km/hr for the whole length in quiet times. When they first lowered the limit at time of the new road construction (Newlands flyover etc) they said it would be put back again when the work was finished - never happened - limit has stayed at 80 for most of it.

Also try following any Police car in a 50km/hr zone - I see plenty near the Police College - ever seen one go as slow as 50? Not me.

[wkid_one]

Also try following any Police car in a 50km/hr zone - I see plenty near the Police College - ever seen one go as slow as 50? Not me.
Best car to follow when you are late is a cop car - they never travel at the speed limit.

[marty]

That's how they nailed a Jag driver in the '60's. He did Auck to Wellington in around 6 1/2 hours when the road was crap and twisty. He boasted about it and they charged him based on average speed.
Lou

650kms in 6 1/2 hours = 100km/h average. what did they charge him with? even if the limit was 80k at the time, surely the fine was all of $20. would be worth the bragging rights i reckon......

[Lou Girardin]

In those days the limit was 55mph = 88 km/h, and if you're averaging 100km/h on those roads you were doing serious speeds on the straight bits.
BTW. Camera car operators can still manually record your reg as you pass. ( if he's awake)
Lou

[spudchucka]

Merv, I hear what you say and you can be sure that heaps of cops feel the same way. Some traffic cops are outright unreasonable and that makes the job the general duties cops are doing more difficult.

To me speed enforcement like everything should be approached in a common sense manner. Example:

Speeding near schools, hospitals, old folks homes and residential areas - you get a ticket.

Speeding along open road, good conditions, minimal traffic - cop needs to consider the time place and circumstances - ticket where appropriate. The only variation is if the driver is a burglar, thief, drug dealer or other form of human scum - then stuff them, they get whatever the can be done for.

Having said this however it is widely known that warning people has no long term effect on their driving behaviour. Being fair to the coppers you must understand this when feeling hard done by for getting a ticket.

As for cops riding bikes and speeding, well they face the same consequences and more if they are caught. How do you think a dangerous driving conviction would effect a cops career, it wouldn't be that flash. But cops know this and if they take the risk they have to accept the consequences.

And before anyone says the cops will never ticket another cop - wrong - plenty wouldn't hesitate.

[spudchucka]

In those days the limit was 55mph = 88 km/h, and if you're averaging 100km/h on those roads you were doing serious speeds on the straight bits.
BTW. Camera car operators can still manually record your reg as you pass. ( if he's awake)
Lou
Did they charge him with the average speed or did they charge him with the higher speed that he was obviously doing during the trip?

[Coldkiwi]

i reckon if I was in a position to bust someone from my office knowing that they'd make my life very difficult if I did so, I am pretty certain I would hesititate before deciding. in a hierarchical enforcement culture like the police I can only imagine this must be more pronounced.

[pete376403]

also if i am speedign and i see a camer facing the other way i congratulate them on catchign me (i dont slow down) and hope like hell that it has no film.

Read the O/P again - they are talking digital cameras which don't use film. The camera is attached to a computer which has virtually unlimited storage on its hard drive. The cameras ALWAYS have enough "film".
Incidentally <conspiracy mode ON> with digital cameras there's no negative, and tools such as Photoshop or Gimp make it possible to alter a pic to whatever they want it to show. Supposing the police wanted to "prove" that a person was in a certain place at a certain time, and they just happened to have a speed camera shot of the persons car which showed this. After all, like Police, the camera never lies. <conspiracy mode off>

[jimbo600]

Merv, I hear what you say and you can be sure that heaps of cops feel the same way. Some traffic cops are outright unreasonable and that makes the job the general duties cops are doing more difficult.

To me speed enforcement like everything should be approached in a common sense manner. Example:

Speeding near schools, hospitals, old folks homes and residential areas - you get a ticket.

Speeding along open road, good conditions, minimal traffic - cop needs to consider the time place and circumstances - ticket where appropriate. The only variation is if the driver is a burglar, thief, drug dealer or other form of human scum - then stuff them, they get whatever the can be done for.

Having said this however it is widely known that warning people has no long term effect on their driving behaviour. Being fair to the coppers you must understand this when feeling hard done by for getting a ticket.

As for cops riding bikes and speeding, well they face the same consequences and more if they are caught. How do you think a dangerous driving conviction would effect a cops career, it wouldn't be that flash. But cops know this and if they take the risk they have to accept the consequences.

And before anyone says the cops will never ticket another cop - wrong - plenty wouldn't hesitate.

Absolutely correct Spud. I know for a fact that HP just love bagging real cops. I guess they are bitter because it must be an embarrassment to tell their kids what they do for a living. How do they live with themselves.

[speedpro]

"After all, like Police, the camera never lies."

In your dreams! What's that? oh, sarcasm, I get it.

I got convicted for dangerous driving because of a few stretched facts which painted a very convenient picture - for the prosecution! Even with a witness who contradicted the evidence I was a done duck.

That was a very long time ago.

[marty]

In those days the limit was 55mph = 88 km/h, and if you're averaging 100km/h on those roads you were doing serious speeds on the straight bits.
BTW. Camera car operators can still manually record your reg as you pass. ( if he's awake)
Lou

so what would they have charged him with? the old transport act was only 1965, so i'm picking the previous one was even more archaic

[Lou Girardin]

This was around '65 from memory and I'm pretty sure he was charged with exceeding 55mph. But in those days you often lost your licence for that. It was pre-instant fines and if you struck a grumpy magistrate you got done like a dinner. As I found out to my cost a few times.
As for booking cops, ambos and fire guys, I can only think of one or two in Auck that did it when I was in the job. I don't think the 'all for one, one for all' attitude has changed much. It's part of emergency service culture.
Lou

[spudchucka]

Read the O/P again - they are talking digital cameras which don't use film. The camera is attached to a computer which has virtually unlimited storage on its hard drive. The cameras ALWAYS have enough "film".
Incidentally <conspiracy mode ON> with digital cameras there's no negative, and tools such as Photoshop or Gimp make it possible to alter a pic to whatever they want it to show. Supposing the police wanted to "prove" that a person was in a certain place at a certain time, and they just happened to have a speed camera shot of the persons car which showed this. After all, like Police, the camera never lies. <conspiracy mode off>

Just what we need around here, another conspiracy theorist!!

If digital cameras are to be used for evidence the courts would probably require experts in the field to give opinion evidence on the possability of tampering.

There would have to be a system in place that ensures that tampering was not a possability. For instance: digital image files are recorded to a central secure server and are only directly accessed by staff authorised to do so. m Or they are stored at an independant location, such as the ESR.

[spudchucka]

Absolutely correct Spud. I know for a fact that HP just love bagging real cops. I guess they are bitter because it must be an embarrassment to tell their kids what they do for a living. How do they live with themselves.

I know some real good buggers in HP but there are some right plonkers too.

Personally I don't think they should be able to work in the HP for more than 2 years without doing time back on the street. That would help to keep them grounded in reality and would force some of the arseholes out of the job - if they had to do some real work.

[jimbo600]

I know some real good buggers in HP but there are some right plonkers too.

Personally I don't think they should be able to work in the HP for more than 2 years without doing time back on the street. That would help to keep them grounded in reality and would force some of the arseholes out of the job - if they had to do some real work.

Now I like that idea. As for digital imagery, the high court deemed that digital imagery is verbatim. Negatives can also be altered without obvious tampering evidence. Also digital imagery is watermarked that is auditable within the chain of evidence.

Personally I would like to see HP revert back to MoT and leave the cops to do the real side of policing. I'm sure they would then start to rekindle public support.

[Lou Girardin]

I
Personally I don't think they should be able to work in the HP for more than 2 years without doing time back on the street. That would help to keep them grounded in reality and would force some of the arseholes out of the job - if they had to do some real work.

I've heard that if they don't keep up the 3 ticket per hour average, they face a transfer back to general duties.
Lou

[SPman]

I've heard that if they don't keep up the 3 ticket per hour average, they face a transfer back to general duties.
Lou
So that would tend to encourage the arseholes to stay !

[Lou Girardin]

I've found that the arsholes reach high rank, it's the good, reasonable guys that get pissed off and quit.
Lou

[SPman]

I've found that the arsholes reach high rank, it's the good, reasonable guys that get pissed off and quit.
LouYeah, the few cops I know, are now all ex cops, for, basically, that reason.

[Drunken Monkey]

Incidentally <conspiracy mode ON> with digital cameras there's no negative, and tools such as Photoshop or Gimp make it possible to alter a pic to whatever they want it to show.

There are standards for 'Digital Negatives', and methodology which must be adhered to for digital data (for text, sound and images) to be used as evidence in a court case. Not completely fool proof, but neither are film negatives if you know what you're doing.

[Drunken Monkey]

*ahem*

Ignore my last post...Yeah, just as Jimbo said...

[Big Dog]

why slow down if you can see the camer in front of you then they cant see your number plate.


Because at present less motorcycles% go unprosecuted than cars % of those snapped. As long as this continues we will not be made to wear front license plates. Talk about your aerodynamic nightmare. :eyepoke: :bash: :Pokey: :doh:

In part of Australia this nightmare is slowly becoming a reality (not sure when but according to Two Wheels the act is already in place and they are just going through the motions of an appeals process before enforcing it. Also according to two wheels this is happening because a significant portion of revenue was lost through an inability to prosecute bikers.

As long as it will cost the govt more than they will make in extra revenue we will not have frontal lic plates. :doh:

[Lou Girardin]

I can't work out how/where they can mount front plates. I'm sure the factory's are not going to be impressed with a bunch of civil servants screwing up their carefully designed airflow.
Lou

[spudchucka]

I can't work out how/where they can mount front plates. I'm sure the factory's are not going to be impressed with a bunch of civil servants screwing up their carefully designed airflow.
Lou

Probably will have to get it painted to the front of your helmet. :sick:

[Two Smoker]

Probably will have to get it painted to the front of your helmet. :sick:It will be impossible to mount a front number plate, especially if you have a naked bike, i remember seeing old bikes with the number plate running along the mud gaurd, but that too is stupid because you can only see it on the side, personally i don't think it will happen...

[spudchucka]

It will be impossible to mount a front number plate, especially if you have a naked bike, i remember seeing old bikes with the number plate running along the mud gaurd, but that too is stupid because you can only see it on the side, personally i don't think it will happen...

I agree, I can't see it happening either.

[SPman]

Do they still have front plates in the UK?

[pete376403]

It will be impossible to mount a front number plate, especially if you have a naked bike, i remember seeing old bikes with the number plate running along the mud gaurd, but that too is stupid because you can only see it on the side, personally i don't think it will happen...

they also made excellent bacon slicers for pedestrians, one of the reasons they were dropped.
I remember seeing in old Two Wheels mags the Aus bikes had them mounted across the front guard, not sure when they dropped that idea but looks like they want to bring it back

[Skyryder]

It is not the camera that bikers should be worried about. It is the radar guns. You will get pinged from up front and then the flashing light will tell you to pull over. To beat them you need a good detector. They are not cheap but a good investment to save your pocket money. I have still got to get one myself.

Skyryder

[k14]

I think you are meaning the laser guns. A radar wont warn you about that, it will only tell you that you have just been done. Cause for the radar to pick up the laser it has to be aimed right at the radar, but as soon as the laser is aimed at your bike, it has a reading. Thus you dont have any time to slow down.

They work good for the radars and speed cameras though. To stop them getting you with the laser you need a laser jammer.