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Kwaka-Kid
16th February 2003, 19:09
Jesus christ! i know im young and all, but i aint never in person seen anything so sick. from my POV: i thought i herd a pop kinda sound in distance (well first thought from my bike/exhaust) and as i came up to the new seal (going slow as i do) i came throught hte corner only to first see a totally smashed bike, letting out steam, and a totally smashed car doing the same (i think it was a New Holden Astra?) and i think 3 bikes down? at least 2 as ihelped pick them up (the old ducati 900 supersport, the yellow trumpy, and i think a green bike further up? maybe?) instantly coming into that corner i got the worst shivers ever! from what i saw the bike musta drifted into other lane and whack! smack bang in the middle of the car! airbag went off, ithe driver was an elderly lady who was alrite, but crying. the dude was about 50yards down lying in a ditch, i did the clip on his helmet to stop it restricting his breathing but left the helmet on, and then i helped pickup the duke. i then went off in search of the faster group *looks @ dan* to inform them. Could somebody please give us more details? i actually thought maybe the other bikes on thier side could have beenthe riders just fogetting to put sidestand down as they ran to the other dudes assistance? but if every 1 involved cud put their events down here it wud b interesting as i am wondering how such a disaster could happen?

bikerboy
16th February 2003, 20:23
I was right behind nhuanh (user name) on the gsx 750, when he went wide after hitting the new seal, tried to veer back but hit straight on the lady in the Hyundai. He hit the windscreen, and flew over the car landing on the side of the road. Quite a horrific site.

I stopped and ran over to him forgetting to put the side stand down so my 996 fell over. The duc 900 (I think) was watching the accident and slid off the road while trying to stop. He is nhuanh's mate and wasn't hurt but the bike was unrideable.

Nhuanh appeared only mildly injured(according to the ambulance guys) but confused, probably a concussion.
His mate will try to post more info on his condition later.

After the ambulance and police left, had a sobering ride to Kaiaua where three other kiwibikers waited for me, then on to the races.

Thanks to all who stopped to help, and hope everyone had a safe day.:calm:

Kwaka-Kid
16th February 2003, 20:43
ahh thanks for that. Iran over and he seemed okay, any broken bones? poor dude will be sore tomorrow :(

sad to hear about your 996, i thought that could have happend, not good to hear tho

now what about another bike? i have the worst memory ever, but i actually thought i saw a 4th bike on road? or maybe i was thinking of the ZXR further up the road on its sidestand? im lost az

but good to hear, please do post here regarding his condition etc

Coldkiwi
16th February 2003, 21:10
Pretty sobering wasn't it?

Well the good news is that Nhuan's in bloody good condition considering what happened! My g/f is a radiographer at Middlemore and has seen the xrays: One badly fractured and slightly dislocated ankle and that's about it! Not bad for a closure rate of 150kmhr!

But for those of you who are't in the habit of wearing all the gear, this guy was at least wearing some top Alpine stars S-MX boots, consider the carnage if he only had sneakers?

wari
17th February 2003, 00:25
Hope the recovery to both bike and rider is a fast one ... well at least for the rider anyway. Doesn't sound like the bike will live again.

Kwaka-Kid
17th February 2003, 06:13
hmm, seriously from what i saw there is no way in hell they would consider repairing that wreck, however i would be interested to know if they do or not?

 

on a lighter note, after leaving dan and the other fullahs at the thames pub, it was a good ride all the way to paeroa! altho im sure you could have found safer places to overtake then just where yellow lines start simon :P  i sat there thinking "fuck that! im gunna wait till there are bright white lines and i can see for miles" then i had to get up to warp speed (for my old 750) just to catch you guys back up, and trust me, on old cross ply tyres, shit arse suspension, with no fork oil left inthe left fork (leaked out 6mnths ago) going over bumps at speed is not a kool idea!

bluninja
17th February 2003, 07:27
Well I hope the nhunh recovers soon. Ankles can be a pain to sort out, but lets hope he's soon back on his feet unaided. BTW as the last of the front group to stop to wait for people to catch up I checked my 'puter. It showed 49.6 kms avge speed 84 kmh for that run, so not really fast. The ride on to Paeroa was fun....as for the overtake...it was safe for me  :p I was back on my own side before the solid yellow and only used 1/3rd the distance I could see ahead to complete the overtake. Not safe for Kawa_kid no doubt, and I'm glad he rides his own ride and chooses his own overtakes. The day at the races was good, but sloppily organised IMHO and some races were cut at the end. The ride home took an hour, only saw 2 police cars on the way back and they were otherwise occupied.

TTFN

 

wkid_one
17th February 2003, 08:06
This was bizarre, I was first through the pea metal and went through it at about 70khm and didn't see anything untoward although stuck soley to the car tracks...........we were sitting at the Kaiaua Service Station for about twenty minutes and figured someone had come off but didn't expect that many to have done so.

We were contemplating coming back, but figured there was a plethora of people there already and by the time we got back most of it would have been handled - our thanks to those who assisted.  Having seen a fews accidents (including my own dislocated shoulder from an off on the same road in March) there is nothing worse than seeing one of your comrades in arms on the deck - let alone seeing the accident in its entireity...something that stays with you for a while....Also, thanks to Logan who made the sole journey to tell us what happened - not a nice thing to do.....I bet the throttle wasn't used a great deal after seeing that!!

For those of you who left us at the Kopu Pub you missed a fantastic Pub to Pub ride around the Coromandel......which we think would have rivalled the racing.  Most of it conducted well over the draconian speed laws set in the 70's.  It was only marred by melting tar from a fantastic day.  The view from the top of the Hill's were fantastic - I have pics for those who wish to turn green with envy immediately!!

From Kopu we went to the Coromandel Pub to see if the AMEX CUP was racing.  If you are going that way call in for their chicken burgers - $8 and I bet you can't eat it.....especially with the pint of Tui!!!

From there, on to the Pub in Tairoa, and after a pint of Mac's Gold (It was hot you know especially in Black leathers) and finding out when the AMEX cup was racing - we tried to get back to Kopu in 20 mins to see the start of the race - we missed by a couple, filled up and trundled back to Auckland at about 130-140kmh (we had the radar detector.

A fantastic day, although marred by the thoughts of fellow riders being carted to hospital.

We didn't see a single copper on the road, only one speed camera.

It you are travelling out that way be careful of the following


Roadworks around the bay from Thames
Gravel on the road to Whitianga from Coromandel (one car on its roof in a ditch after loosing control - we missed it by 10 mins)


Other than that it was plain sailing apart from traffic over the Kopu's

I hope everyone who had an off gets better and no one ends up with injuries that hang around.  Having injured my ankle (3 x dislocated) playing sport I know that they can be a real arse to get right and you feel like the healthiest cripple around!!! 

As for the fortunates who made it through - WHEN IS THE NEXT RIDE!!!

DAN

PS:  STAY SAFE

 

 

 

SPman
17th February 2003, 14:52
A relief to hear the injuries were not REAL SERIOUS! - although ankles can be a bitch! Hopefully, all concerned are on the way to recovery,both physically AND MENTALLY! A painful blip in the learning curve.   We figured something must be up, while we waited and good on K-K for coming through and letting us know what was going on.

For a guy riding a bike, he considered near terminal, he did well in keeping up. And good on you for not overtaking when you thought you shouldnt! Very important to personally weigh up the situation and act according to how you think is right for you. Personally,my rule of thumb is dont pass on double yellows etc, if there is any doubt at all  that you cant complete the manouvre safely.Always make sure you can see clearly ahead throughout the manouvre. If in doubt, dont pass. (Survival  instinct - although, having ridden with Ullysses a couple of times,its a wonder many of those guys have lived long enough to join!)

Thanks to Dan with the RadarD. riding point, down to Kopu. Sort of gave a slightly enhanced sense of security...  Glad you guys enjoyed your ride.

The ride down the hills to Paeroa was good - the first time Ive been that way for years - far better than the plains - if slightly longer,but, hey,the rides te important part anyway!

Racing started at least an hour late,due to safety changes demanded by the riders, and holdups due to running out of ambulances, among other things - it was a bit frantic at times - having seen at first hand what happens when you cock up a wheelie on a CBX1000 - ....!

Rode back in the evening after sunstrike time,when it was cooler - didnt see a cop all day (apart fromthe speed camera on the motorway by the Otahu turnoff.....

Kwaka-Kid
17th February 2003, 17:22
i rode home early, wanted to beat the rush, and saw 3x cop cars on the way.

Anyway guys, i think apart from the accident it was a great day and some good riding was going on, and so im keen for another Kiwibiker ride.

However the only thing i think we should stress for the next is the whole idea of riding at your own pace, its great to ride with somebody but if its somebody riding faster then you feel comfortable, dont put yourself at risk, dont ride outside your skill level.

I was impressed by the riding of the guys further up the feild (Dan etc) and possibly would have gone a little faster (well, i dunno, im paranoid of cops, never had a ticket yet) had i not have had such shit tyres on, well, i dont think you can call them tyres. Rim protectors is about all they serve as :D  genuine 15yo hard compound Rear tyre (from a honda single) on my front, and a 4yo not too bad but low on tread Macadam on rear, skinny cross plys too :(   i might sound like im harping on about this now, but even tho i have these crap tyres and bike etc and cant keep up the front of the feild, i can still go out there and have a tonne of fun, without feeling unsafe or riding outside my personal or vechiles capabilities.

so here goes again "RIDE AT YOUR OWN PACE!"

and happy safe riding to you all!

wkid_one
17th February 2003, 17:36
I am keen for a ride any weekend.  Both us Dan's (Wkid_One and KiwiDan) usually clock up about 400-600km per weekend.

My cell number is 021 0411 814 (Dan = Wkid_One = Yellow VTR)

KiwiDan's number is 021 684 435 (Dan = Silver and Black GIXXER Thou)

Any one and everyone is welcome to ride with us - we go at our own pace - usually Cafe to Cafe, Pub to Pub sort of thing - so it is usually long rides made up of short squirts.....

Most common rides are:

Kaiaua Loop (Via Maratai/Clevedon etc)

Coromandel

Kawhia

Putararu

etc

Drop us a line with your email/cell etc and we will stay in touch...

As always ride safe and keep your license

Dan (VTR)

 

bikerboy
17th February 2003, 17:56
:rolleyes:I know everyone says' ride at your own pace" but once on the road it can feel very different. Maybe on the group rides one can discuss levels so people feel more comfortable about limitations and know where to "join the pack" when starting out, so as not to be passed by everyone and feel left behind. If one doesn't know the route and happen to start out behind the fastest guys, one feels extra pressure (frustration) to keep up, just not to get lost.

I've been on rides where everyone takes off and left me behind:to someone new to riding/group that can be intimidating. Unless you know the group attitude/rules your not sure someone will wait at the turn offs or for you to catch up. This can cause people to over do it.

If you know the planned stops or that someone will wait for you to catch up at the critical point, then you can relax, and enjoy the ride at your own pace.

Everyone should be responsible enogh ride to their own comfort level, end of story. We all have been in situations where we rode a little faster, a little less careful than we should and got away with it. Eventually that luck may run out. I just hope I'm not there to see it.

:calm:

wkid_one
17th February 2003, 18:29
My rules are:

1.  Never pass on the inside

2. Never pass on the inside

3. Never pass on the inside.

I stress that it is important that everyone ride at their own pace.  If people organising rides are any good, you will meet at specified points, which means that no matter how fast or slow you are - you aren't entirely left behind and you always catch up

It is up to the faster riders to ensure they don't 'intimidate' the slower riders by getting to the front - no one should feel that they have to ride outside their limits.  I made a point of going out first on Sunday as I felt I was quicker and therefore may intimadate slower riders by riding up their date, plus never rode outside my limits.

NEVER ride outside your ability - everyone at some stage was last in the pack - it is something not to be embarrassed about and no faster rider will ever be frustrated by slower riders.  You are better to get there than not.....

I think everyone will agree with me when I say that you have to learn to ride at your own pace......everyone learns at a different speed.

We ride with a learner and she said exactly the same thing to me today.  I don;t mind and never mind riding with supposed 'slower' or 'learner' riders.  If you are on a bike, you can ride with me, no matter how long I have to wait - its not just about the speed but also the comraderie that comes from riding together.  Whether you are 10 metres or 1000 metres apart it makes no difference - you still have to ride for yourself.

Learner/Novice/Slow riders are welcome on our rides anytime, and yes we may go quicker - but we all end up at the same place - having a beer, something to eat and talking about are good and bad corners!!!  WHO GOT THERE FIRST IS NOT DISCUSSED!!!!!!!!!!

SPman
17th February 2003, 21:03
I agree. You should all ride at a pace that is comfortable to you. There are to many stories of people trying to keep up with faster riders  and having, or causing, majors, in so doing. I must admit I thought it would be a bit more of sedate ride yesterday, but group rides often tend to sort out into groups of like speeded riders? and I felt quite comfortable running with the Dans, Simon,et al. I assumed that those behind would be sorting out into speed groups as well and as there was a meeting point to go to, no real pressure to get there before your ability. This system works well on AMCC rides, with frequent blasts, frequent stops to regroup and no pressure.......mind you,having spent 2/3rds of my rides "shepherding" slower riders, it was quite good to ride with a group who were quick, without being total loonies......

 

 

NhuanH
22nd February 2003, 16:18
KBers,

Um...sorry for the excitement caused on Sunday (especially you John, just behind me).  It looked to be starting out as such a damned good day too...

One broken left ankle, check.  Sprained right ankle, Check. Strained right thigh, check.  One totalled Gixxer 750, check.  Man, I loved that bike.

But yet that's all the damage done, from waist up was untouched - so my lesson was "wear your @#$% gear!".

I'm upbeat and philosophical about it now I've heard other accounts. I think I cleaned passing John on the yellow Duke and made the left, but maybe the passing move drew my attention from warning signs (I swear I did not see a bean).

Thanks for your support and help on the day and your thoughts in here.  I hope that Paeroa was primo and you all enjoyed the racing (I certainly would have)

 Big question now though is....what to replace the Suzi with?  Thoughts?

Cheers,

Nhuan

 

 

 

Gixxer
22nd February 2003, 17:46
stick to what's good dude.

bluninja
22nd February 2003, 17:49
Nhuanh, glad to see you are so upbeat about the whole thing. I would echo your sentiments about wearing the right gear at all times as it has saved me after bouncing off a 4 wheeler (tractor). Funnily enough I totalled my bike too, and I was crying on the way to hospital in the ambulance cos I'd wrecked my 18 hour old RSVR :mad: the answer for me was to buy another new RSVR. So tell us all what bikes you are thinking of. I've got a few recent bike mags lying around if you want to lust over some recent models.

Hope your ankles mend properly and quickly.

TTFN

Kwaka-Kid
22nd February 2003, 18:31
ill sing to the same tune as you simon, wear the gear, and also wishing you the fastest possible recovery.

well, ive lernt my lesson about gear and i didnt even need to get hurt :) i think thats one thing all KBikers should take away with them out of this accident, if they didnt already know.

i must say (being 17 and all, not much acc exp.) i had never ever been so relieved to firstly see your body in one peice, and secondly that u was actually breathing! sheezus, after seeing the bike i musta just thought the worst.

anyways on a lighter note, have you considerd making the heavenly jump from a gixxer to a ZXR? :D Kawasaki man i am, good tough bikes. :o u should try buy a 1972 Kawasaki Z1, they are such nice bikes! i rode one the other month, a better-then-showroom one, as youd expect $25,000 down the track with every little nut and bolt being brand new etc :) and if anybody wants to see it get down to Mt Eden Motorcycles, it was sold to mike only a month ago :)

bikerboy
22nd February 2003, 22:46
:) glad to see you are on the road to recovery Nhuan. Let us know how things are going. At least you have the thrill and excuse to get a new bike, enjoy the research as there is a lot of great looking bikes out there.:bigthumb:

NhuanH
23rd February 2003, 06:12
having been a guest of Middlemore Orthopaedic Ward 16 now for just about a full week (stellar care too!) and spending most of it on my back, in between the ebbs of pain, I've beena thinking.  If any of you cats have some time and want a laugh, a cry, some horror (no not really) or just to see how upbeat I truly am, just gimme a ring on 021 703 648 and I'll give u the room number and arrange it.

And no worries bluninja, I am a magazine junkie from way back, so got all the hardcopy research I'll ever need. 

Here are my thoughts at the mo:

The Gix 750 was/is a beautifully balanced machine - 'mo power on tap than any 600 but not enough to intimidate you a la GSX-R1000.  Having said that though I originally (winter last year) went gunning for a Yamaha R6.  But then of course 3 of the manufacturers were producing brand new 03 600s, which are only just landing now (how convenient??).  I've seen the R6 in the flesh, not too foul.  But I like the CBR600RR the best.  Heavy duty swingarm, underseat pipe, cool.  The Kwaka 6 I'm not overly enamoured with.

For novelty factor red baron have a quite recent model ZX-7R, but they always get panned in comparos with the Gix (6 years old, no development etc.), so why seemingly go backwards?

I do love the duke 996/998, but my bike was a daily commuter (Manukau into town), so I would be loathe to treat such a beast to that experience.  And we all know it is a wallet stretcher, damned desmo vakves!

In summary, Gix750 still up there - great bike.Or Honda CBR600RR.

Thoughts?

 

 

Kwaka-Kid
23rd February 2003, 06:42
i try not to think as much as possible actually..it hurts..

but anyway, honestly didnt know that about ZX7R's, so theyhavent redesigned in 6 odd years? that must mean only one thing... they are onto a winner! you can make a perfect bike any more perfect now can you?

you know you want to turn to the green machine... do it i say! :P

have you considerd a Bandit 1200? ment to be great all round power, that would be a nice bike to commute on wouldnt it? - talk to barry about it, he had one

wkid_one
23rd February 2003, 13:34
Go for any of the new 1000 - 2003 GSXR, 954 or R1 - you can't go wrong.

I agree with the bike gear- hence why I was wearing armour - however you must remember the following - bike gear is only designed to protect you in two instances:

1. The point of impact immediately after falling from the bike when you hit the ROAD

2. Sliding down the road.

I am sorry to burst your bubble - but I believe it was pure luck your injuries were not more severe.  Yes the gear had a part to play - but it only protects elbows/knees etc for ONE impact!!!  CE Armour is not designing to stop your leg break from a sideways impact.  Bike gear is not designed to protect you from collisions with trees/cars/curbs and in some instances can actually do more damage than good.

I recall you were wearing Jeans without CE Armour, you were lucky the injury was your foot - as had you impacted your knee/femur - you'd be in traction right now.

Sobering thoughts - but something all bike riders should remember - there is no gear on earth designed to protect you from colliding with a stationary (or heaven forbid, approaching) object - don't kid yourself if you think there is!!

Best option is to ride within your limits, for the conditions, and being aware of those around you.....

DS

 

 

bluninja
23rd February 2003, 15:56
Dan, a different slant on it. Saying he's lucky that his injuries aren't worse. You could equally say, that given the volume of traffic on that road he was unlucky that a car happened to be coming along at the point in time he was on the wrong side of road.

I agree about armour though. It's designed to spread and absorb the energy at impact to reduce injury. Not just when you hit the pavement though...it's there for sub 70 kmh offs where you will tend to tumble rather than slide (something to do with friction coefficients between tarmac/rider). You will notice most armour is at joints as your bones are designed to break somewhere in the middle, and this is normally a simple repair (but painful and takes a while), compared to repairing joint damage. One wears armour to give a better chance at survival, or reduce injuries in case of an accident, not to make the rider feel invulnerable. Even wearing full armour on his legs, an impact on the thigh of sufficient force would have snapped his femur.

As for armour causing more damage...hard armour is normally the culprit as under certain conditions it can shatter or just twist and cut into the body. Foam type armour with no shell to my knowledge has no adverse properties in an impact. And the one use only? yes there are some armour types that are destroyed internally, or compressed in an impact and do not afford a second protection (your helmet filler is a prime example). Others however can be used over and over, subject to the material returning to it's original shape before the next impact. 

At the end of the day, all things considered, when all is said and done :D

the biggest safety aid is a riders hazard awareness, forward planning, and bike control.

TTFN

Kwaka-Kid
23rd February 2003, 18:08
Originally posted by bluninja
given the volume of traffic on that road he was unlucky that a car happened to be coming along at the point in time he was on the wrong side of road.


so like.. its the old ladies fault for driving on her side of the road? right? :P haha nah.

im really really confused about all this armour stuff, i think i might just stick to not crashing... also i cant afford armour anyways, i ride to work and back every day, 16km wearing jeans and skater shoes, a leather jacket and gloves (not to mention my helmet) and on proper weekend rides i trade the shoes in for my Sidi's. but thats it, the only time ive worn leathers was @ Track time 2, where i borrowed my dads old ones that date back to around '86 :)

bluninja
24th February 2003, 06:53
Kwaka....you missed the point....and nowhere did I say that it was the other drivers fault. Try reading the quote of mine you posted again, and bear in mind that if there is only a car passing in the opposite direction say every 3 minutes and they are passed in 3 seconds then you have 177 seconds where there is nothing to collect you if you stray to the wrong side of the road. Had nothing been coming, nhuanh would have returned to his own side of the road with a bit of a fright and nothing more. I wonder how many people over the course of that ride ended up in a position that exposed them to oncoming traffic, but escaped because nothing was coming the other way.

As for armour....well if you can afford bikes then you must be able to afford armour. You may be the best rider in the world, but you can still be taken out by a car (bumped from behind in a traffic queue, sideswiped by a car changing lanes without looking, taken out by a car shooting out from a junction into your front wheel, diesel, gravel in the middle of a blind bend). Having said that as long as you know the risks, you are entitled to make your own decision about the level of protection you use. 

TTFN

Coldkiwi
24th February 2003, 11:20
I agree with ya Bluninja. I commute 25k's everyday wearing either full leathers or armoured wet weather gear... not because I intend to thrash the arse out of my bike on all three decent corners on my ride in... but because I pass close to a thousand cars on the way and the odds of one sleepy driver who's had a bad morning pulling out without looking for me going past just aren't that small!!

I have confidence in my own abilities to minimise the risk (of course, lane splitting is a calculated risk in itself) of hitting a car by knowing how hard I can get on the brakes and looking well ahead... but you can always get surprised no matter how good you are. So I assume the worst could happen everyday.

Or look at it this way kwaka ; If someone said "I'm going to throw you out the side of this truck at 50km/hr" would you want to be wearing your jeans or be in the thickest damn armoured leathers you could get?

It's not worth the risk man.. bite the bullet and get some gear. Motomail hada huge sale on in the weekend and cycletreads are having one in march: make use of them!

 

bikerboy
24th February 2003, 15:55
:( Hey Kwaka, their right, haven't you heard of gravel rash? You get it when you fall off and slide. It doesn't have to be a long slide or even very fast. Denim will burn through in seconds when sliding, then the fabric actually burns into the skin( due to friction) and gravel and dirt etc. get rubbed into the wound. It looks like a rash but it is virtually impossible to clean thoroughly so it gets infected.

It generally occurs in minor falls where the rider gets up with scraps and bruises, so doesn't get medical attention. Eventually this seemingly mild scrap or "rash" turns into a nasty infection so bad and deep that it generaly leads to large chunks of skin being cut out or worse, amputation of the limb if left untreated. There are some pretty hiddious pictures I've seen.

An accident like Nhuan's where there is impact and landing aren't as common as getting knocked off and sliding, then impact.

This sounds like a lecture but is meant as friendly advice.:done:

Kwaka-Kid
24th February 2003, 16:45
bluninja - i saw ur point exactly, sorry, i hate the net :P cant tell if im being a smart-ass or not, well basically i always, am, and yes afterwards you made it blind obvious so i got your point fully :)

and about the gear... humm harr humm harr, i dunno aye. its alotta dollars when you aint got that many.. and yeah i was hit off my 250 once when over taking, and my thin az skool pants melted into side of knee, and my skool sweatshirt prolly wasnt the best leather jacket impersonator ever... but i rolled onto back for most part of the slide and my skool bags plastic clips took most of damage, aswell as my calculator in fron pocket.. haha.. the calculator that saved me much pain.. i still have it today in my room :D

but i dunno hey, i look at it this way:  The chances of me having an accident are i feel alot more minimized then most riders.. i am not saying i dont/wont have accidents, but like.. im the worlds most paranoid rider :P you guys saw how slow i ride! and how far away from the yellow lines i stay! and ive NEVER lane split.. and hardly EVER overtake.. i use my bike like a car most of the time, alrite when traffic is dead still ill go in 1st gear down the side of it.. the only time i ever put myself at risk is coming down Atkinson Rd in West auckland, downhill SSS bends, so beutiful.. i can do them @ 80k' now on the 400.  but anyway getting back to the way i look at it, pain is a small thing.. i dont mind putting up with a bit/alot of pain for the sakes of $1000. i mean, seriously, That gear wont stop me from smash impact and dieing. the body/head just cant take a big impact, and so therefore the gear is for slides etc. and i know it hurts and i been thru that (altho not in hospital) but i look at it as like, if i just put up with some discomfort/pain/absolute agony, i save myself money aswell as being more liklely to lern my lesson not to crash doing whatever i was doing.

i spose to break that down, i ride in the gear i ride in to help make myself a more cautious rider, knowing how much worse off ill be if i dont keep the bike shiney side up, and for me, it does change my riding style, i noticed this as when i went to puke and wore leathers (for the first and only time) and armourdillo and everything else i worked that bike as hard as i ever had before, and there is no way in hell i would have done it without the gear (that may not have saved me much, but its a sub-councious thing) so yeh.

sorry if to some of you older guys (i think im youngest here) i sound arrogant/anything else bad, but i am taking in all of your opinions and i am learning heaps :) so thanx for everything here so far.