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View Full Version : If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear?



Lou Girardin
22nd December 2005, 07:25
Read nash's column in this months Kiwirider. He relates an incident where he was riding on a State Highway and came up behind a line of cars being held up by an old guy in an old Falcoon doing 85 km/h. They came to passing lanes, so Nash pulled out to pass, he saw an IRD patrol at the end of the lanes (good hunting ground that), checked his speed - under 110. As he passed the Falcoon and started to pull left he saw a Volvo pull out and accelerate hard. Mr Volvo saw the cop and nailed the brakes. They passed Plod who pulled out and hit the flashers,. Nash thought Mr Volvo was history, but no, the thin blue line pulled Nash over and said he checked him at 126 k's.
Nash asked Plod if he'd seen the Volvo, to which Officer Dibble said, "I was watching my radar screen, not the traffic".:gob:
So after some diagram drawing and vehement discussion Plod must have realised he was buying a fight and decided not to write him up.
A real close call. But what would have happened if it had been some less articulate and/or assertive person? Someone who just sucks it up without protest?

Deviant Esq
22nd December 2005, 07:55
Have heard of a number of similar incidents involving the NZ revenue... errr, police force. Case of wrong place wrong time, muppet of a police officer with the old "care factor: 0 (I don't give a shit)" thing going, the wrong person gets booked whilst the offender (often a nicer euro car) gets off scott free.

Pretty poor effort and unprofessional really. I've also heard of people being pulled over for the sake of it, the officer proclaiming they're "doing 15km/h over the limit there son", when they've perhaps accelerated harder than normal but only to 50 - 55km/h.

But what can you do when all the real offenders, when they get pulled over, look like this -> :innocent: ?

Bah! Topics like this get me cranky. :beer:

ManDownUnder
22nd December 2005, 08:04
Nash asked Plod if he'd seen the Volvo, to which Officer Dibble said, "I was watching my radar screen, not the traffic".:gob:


Therein lies the defence...
"There were at least two other cars on the road, you wern't looking, so how do you know it was me?

I know it wasn't..."



A real close call. But what would have happened if it had been some less articulate and/or assertive person? Someone who just sucks it up without protest?

The consolidated fund gets some money - which then goes back into roading and safety... right?

ManDownUnder
22nd December 2005, 08:05
But what can you do when all the real offenders, when they get pulled over, look like this -> :innocent: ?


or the gorgeous young female ones with cleavage and legs showing... I'd love to know how many get away with a warning...

Grahameeboy
22nd December 2005, 08:08
I had a similar situation but the cop was a miserable bugger (from UK) and got shitty....defended, did not get notice of Hearing, get a Notice to Pay, took me a week to get hold of someone at Court, got forms 3 days later with 3 days to go before extra $100 slapped fine, got Final Notice, tried to explain but not their problem.......filled my forms in but didn't have time to get JP to sign so feel that my position is both prejudiced and fucked and I wonder whether it is all worth the hassle since I qualify for an automatic day licence anyway (if I get more points/ban)........man o man

Gremlin
22nd December 2005, 12:45
...he saw an IRD patrol at the end of the lanes (good hunting ground that), checked his speed - under 110.
:mad: This pisses me off. We as bikes are better off than cars (well... of course) but in terms of passing where we like, when we like. How many of us have passed lines of cars that can't pass one slow car??

With an absolute lack of passing lanes, cars are stuck there to wait, or conduct stupid manoeuvres. If you wait, eventually you will have a passing lane. You overtake, only to find a tax collector waiting for you.

Its almost like they want you to pass in dangerous places. No wonder we have those sorts of accidents where cars have tried to overtake one another in dangerous places... you can't use the passing lanes. :mad:

spudchucka
22nd December 2005, 13:03
Nash asked Plod if he'd seen the Volvo, to which Officer Dibble said, "I was watching my radar screen, not the traffic".:gob:
You'd have to defend that straight away. When there is multiple lanes and more than one vehicle in the radar beam the cop has to be able to provide a tracking history, which involves actually looking at the traffic to see which is the fast vehicle.

Beemer
22nd December 2005, 13:53
But what would have happened if it had been some less articulate and/or assertive person? Someone who just sucks it up without protest?

Have you MET Nash?

SPman
22nd December 2005, 14:10
Have you MET Nash?
You mean - there are people who HAVEN'T!

digsaw
22nd December 2005, 14:35
After sucking along behind about 10 cars for at lest 12km last in the line got zaped for 114km when clock said 105km.
How can this be right,how can they be sure,and why pick on the last in line fookin:tugger: :angry2:

*sic
22nd December 2005, 14:47
ahh the old IRD at it again. might just flag driving and get out my swappa and sit down for a few..

cant win, dont try.

digsaw
22nd December 2005, 14:53
Oh yes,cam ticket on southern motorway as i was being passed and it was fookin huge.103km :yeah: :2guns: :tugger: :angry2:

madboy
22nd December 2005, 16:19
Oh yes,cam ticket on southern motorway as i was being passed and it was fookin huge.103km :yeah: :2guns: :tugger: :angry2:They bust people for that? Tape up the plate...

SPman
22nd December 2005, 18:45
Had a mate get done for 107 on a passing lane - passing the std fucktard who cruises at 70 with a huge line of cars behind him, then speeds up when a passing lane appears........

digsaw
22nd December 2005, 19:13
And waat about the country copper where i use to live, T intersection with give way that i rode through twice aday that suddenly became a compulsary stop. bike stalled at stop but i could not be seen and when i procceded and made left turn local fuzz got in to a tizz and give me ticket for failing to give way!!!!
not only that,the sign was down a bank beyond the foot path and there was no yellow lines, strange that the yellow lines and the sine were in place the next day. :argh: :first: to the fucktards :done: :whocares: :sherlock:

SuperDave
22nd December 2005, 19:21
Something like this has yet to happen to me but I have a feeling I am going to be in one of these situations sooner or later. The cops trapping on a passing lane is just plain ratch - is there some kinda of guidline to the tolerance the cop must allow dependant on where he is trapping?

Edbear
22nd December 2005, 21:47
Yup! Anyone seen that neat European ad for the KAwasaki Ninja? Poor ol' tractor driver got snapped at 263km/h!

scumdog
22nd December 2005, 21:54
Ah, just treat 'em like another road hazard, same as spilt diesel, loose gravel, incorrectly parked spaceships....:wacko:

Lou Girardin
23rd December 2005, 07:10
You'd have to defend that straight away. When there is multiple lanes and more than one vehicle in the radar beam the cop has to be able to provide a tracking history, which involves actually looking at the traffic to see which is the fast vehicle.

I bet he wouldn't admit to that under oath.

Lou Girardin
23rd December 2005, 07:11
And waat about the country copper where i use to live, T intersection with give way that i rode through twice aday that suddenly became a compulsary stop. bike stalled at stop but i could not be seen and when i procceded and made left turn local fuzz got in to a tizz and give me ticket for failing to give way!!!!
not only that,the sign was down a bank beyond the foot path and there was no yellow lines, strange that the yellow lines and the sine were in place the next day. :argh: :first: to the fucktards :done: :whocares: :sherlock:

If there's no yellow lines the compulsory stop is not enforceable.

spudchucka
23rd December 2005, 13:45
I bet he wouldn't admit to that under oath.
Hopefully he would have the sense to withdraw it before it got to court.

Lou Girardin
23rd December 2005, 13:47
Hopefully he would have the sense to withdraw it before it got to court.

I used to live in hope. Now I wallow in cynicism.

rc_36_rider
23rd December 2005, 13:54
one thing i want to try one day when im fully legal is to say how can you prove it was me you clocked is there a picture of me with my speed you could easly have an old reading on your gun and be just sayin its me you clocked there is no way you can prove it was me you clocked and i wasnt speeding anyway so it cant have beeen me
has any one tryed this?:2thumbsup

spudchucka
23rd December 2005, 14:04
I used to live in hope. Now I wallow in cynicism.
Your choice, enjoy wallowing.

spudchucka
23rd December 2005, 14:06
one thing i want to try one day when im fully legal is to say how can you prove it was me you clocked is there a picture of me with my speed you could easly have an old reading on your gun and be just sayin its me you clocked there is no way you can prove it was me you clocked and i wasnt speeding anyway so it cant have beeen me
has any one tryed this?:2thumbsup
Of course its been tried and of course the police and the courts have heard all the stories before. All you'll achieve is to make a dork of yourself in court.

ManDownUnder
23rd December 2005, 14:06
Your choice, enjoy wallowing.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sorry Lou - you lined yourself up for that one!

scumdog
24th December 2005, 11:52
I used to live in hope. Now I wallow in cynicism.

Is "Cynicism" an 'effluent' suburb somewhere in Auckland?? :motu: :whistle:

(Well, Hope is a place near Nelson)

Swoop
24th December 2005, 14:57
Is "Cynicism" an 'effluent' suburb somewhere in Auckland?? :motu: :whistle:

(Well, Hope is a place near Nelson)

Yes, Cynicism is a pleasant area between Ponsonby and Parnell in Auckland. The Hero Parade used to be a major drawcard for its fine "clientele"...:wacko:

Lou Girardin
28th December 2005, 14:49
Is "Cynicism" an 'effluent' suburb somewhere in Auckland?? :motu: :whistle:

(Well, Hope is a place near Nelson)

Which one are you? Kath or Keem?

Lou Girardin
28th December 2005, 14:50
Yes, Cynicism is a pleasant area between Ponsonby and Parnell in Auckland. The Hero Parade used to be a major drawcard for its fine "clientele"...:wacko:

Cynicism is knowing you don't have to spread your cheeks, because it doesn't help.

Pixie
28th December 2005, 22:01
Read nash's column in this months Kiwirider. He relates an incident where he was riding on a State Highway and came up behind a line of cars being held up by an old guy in an old Falcoon doing 85 km/h. They came to passing lanes, so Nash pulled out to pass, he saw an IRD patrol at the end of the lanes (good hunting ground that), checked his speed - under 110. As he passed the Falcoon and started to pull left he saw a Volvo pull out and accelerate hard. Mr Volvo saw the cop and nailed the brakes. They passed Plod who pulled out and hit the flashers,. Nash thought Mr Volvo was history, but no, the thin blue line pulled Nash over and said he checked him at 126 k's.
Nash asked Plod if he'd seen the Volvo, to which Officer Dibble said, "I was watching my radar screen, not the traffic".:gob:
So after some diagram drawing and vehement discussion Plod must have realised he was buying a fight and decided not to write him up.
A real close call. But what would have happened if it had been some less articulate and/or assertive person? Someone who just sucks it up without protest?
Serves him right,if he wasn't speeding during that instance,he surely has exceeded the limit at some time.What goes around comes around.He was on a bike and we all know what they are like.Nash has a beard and he's one of those cop hating journalists.dribble... dribble:Police:

MrMelon
29th December 2005, 09:46
We got the rudest ticket out the back of Blenheim yesterday on those long straight roads. Came through and 80 zone, slowed down to 80, then a couple of k's later we thought we must've missed the 100 sign since there were no driveways and shops so sped back up to 100, and some prick in an unmarked car pulled us over and said he'd clocked us at 106. They should be giving tickets to people who are actually fucking speeding, not trying to behave. He only wrote our speed up as 90 so it was a $30 ticket, but I still think it should have only been a warning since he must have realised we weren't caning it.

Wonder if anyone's ever taken a ticket to court and won because a cop wrote down a speed on the ticket that wasn't correct. (even if it was lower than the actual speed caught at)

T.I.E
29th December 2005, 09:59
that would be good to know if anyone has actually got off a ticket through the courts and what were the reasons why etc, and curcumstances around it.

Lou Girardin
29th December 2005, 10:15
that would be good to know if anyone has actually got off a ticket through the courts and what were the reasons why etc, and curcumstances around it.

There was a well publicised case last year where the defendant proved by use of a GPS system the he wasn't speeding.
Funnily enough, there weren't any questions asked about why the Plod said he was.

scumdog
29th December 2005, 15:54
Wonder if anyone's ever taken a ticket to court and won because a cop wrote down a speed on the ticket that wasn't correct. (even if it was lower than the actual speed caught at)

Dunno, but the first time it happens it's goodbye to THAT idea, some people are good at going through life killing the "goose that lays the golden egg" and screwing everything for others.

Human nature being what it is it WILL happen.

So then it would be no more "149km sounds a whole lot better than 152km doesn't it sir?" kind of stuff, not that I know ANYBODY that would do THAT!! :rolleyes:

Lou Girardin
29th December 2005, 16:09
Dunno, but the first time it happens it's goodbye to THAT idea, some people are good at going through life killing the "goose that lays the golden egg" and screwing everything for others.

Human nature being what it is it WILL happen.

So then it would be no more "149km sounds a whole lot better than 152km doesn't it sir?" kind of stuff, not that I know ANYBODY that would do THAT!! :rolleyes:

What about, " with your Stalker only being accurate to plus or minus 1.6 km/h, that 151 could well be less than 150 Orrificer".

Indoo
29th December 2005, 16:16
We got the rudest ticket out the back of Blenheim yesterday on those long straight roads. Came through and 80 zone, slowed down to 80, then a couple of k's later we thought we must've missed the 100 sign since there were no driveways and shops so sped back up to 100, and some prick in an unmarked car pulled us over and said he'd clocked us at 106. They should be giving tickets to people who are actually fucking speeding, not trying to behave. He only wrote our speed up as 90 so it was a $30 ticket, but I still think it should have only been a warning since he must have realised we weren't caning it.

Wonder if anyone's ever taken a ticket to court and won because a cop wrote down a speed on the ticket that wasn't correct. (even if it was lower than the actual speed caught at)

Let me get this straight, you were doing 106 in an 80kmh zone, 26 k's over the limit and liable for a 230 dollar fine and 35 demerits or so. This 'prick' of a cop dares to pull you over and is rude enough to give you a ticket for 30 dollars and 10 demerit points.

And now you want to try and get off it because he marked down your speed?

Yep it sure is the cop who is the 'prick' here.

scumdog
29th December 2005, 16:26
What about, " with your Stalker only being accurate to plus or minus 1.6 km/h, that 151 could well be less than 150 Orrificer".

THAT sir, is why I said 1-5-2kmh!!:argh: :spudwhat:


Time for :drinknsin

TonyB
29th December 2005, 16:37
Rant on.

Just the fact that they love to hang around passing lanes pisses me off. How many times have you followed some muppet who's doing like 80km/h, then they get to the passing lane and accelerate rapidly to 100+?? Bloody heaps I'll bet! Wether it's through pig headeness or simply because the extra width of the road makes it feel slower, damn near EVERYONE speeds up at a passing lane, and then slows back down again afterwards. If you've just followed some numbnuts for the last 20km at 80km/h, you KNOW they're just gonna slow down again when the passing lane ends, so you have no option but to exceed the speed limit to get past. I'll bet the cops know this too, and I think it's pretty fucken low to sit around gathering revenue off frustrated drivers.

If they want to play fair they should target the left hand lane!

Rant off. Have a nice day.

scumdog
29th December 2005, 16:47
Rant on.

Just the fact that they love to hang around passing lanes pisses me off. How many times have you followed some muppet who's doing like 80km/h, then they get to the passing lane and accelerate rapidly to 100+?? Bloody heaps I'll bet! Wether it's through pig headeness or simply because the extra width of the road makes it feel slower, damn near EVERYONE speeds up at a passing lane, and then slows back down again afterwards. If you've just followed some numbnuts for the last 20km at 80km/h, you KNOW they're just gonna slow down again when the passing lane ends, so you have no option but to exceed the speed limit to get past. I'll bet the cops know this too, and I think it's pretty fucken low to sit around gathering revenue off frustrated drivers.

If they want to play fair they should target the left hand lane!

Rant off. Have a nice day.

Settle down Tony, they DON'T speed up if a marked cop car is behind them, and I have NEVER ticketed anybody on a passing lane.
Passing just AFTER it on a blind bend is a different story.

"he put his foot down just as we got to the end of the passing lane by the bend as I was about to pass him" - in a 35 ton truck load of wheat - yeah right bozo, he put his foot down!!!

Highlander
29th December 2005, 21:02
Gets up my nose when you finally get to a passing lane in a long line of traffic and a truck pulls out to pass another taking the length of the passing lane to do it.
I realise they are as entitled to pass as anyone else but surely they realise they are holding back the flow of traffic. Just cause they drive fro a living doesn't make then "professional" drivers.

inlinefour
30th December 2005, 04:37
Gets up my nose when you finally get to a passing lane in a long line of traffic and a truck pulls out to pass another taking the length of the passing lane to do it.
I realise they are as entitled to pass as anyone else but surely they realise they are holding back the flow of traffic. Just cause they drive fro a living doesn't make then "professional" drivers.

Are you saying everyone but trucks have the right to use a passing lane? If each truck waited for everyone else to pass, then they would never get to pass the vehicle in frount of them that is slowing them down. The difference is that on the next bit of clear road/passing lane, you can pass. The truck generally cannot. Please apply a bit of common sense and consideration yourself Highlander, I don't think you need to be flaming any truckie over this.:spudwhat:

Jantar
30th December 2005, 04:50
The regulations do require slower vehicles to move to left and allow faster vehicles to pass. This also applies on a passing lane. Trucks should allow faster vehicles to pass first then, when there are no faster vehicles behind, pull out and pass the slower truck.

Otherwise you get the ludicrous situation of two trucks being followed by a dozen other vehicles, a passing lane comes up, and because one truck passes another, the situation is still two trucks followed by a dozen or more cars.

inlinefour
30th December 2005, 04:57
The regulations do require slower vehicles to move to left and allow faster vehicles to pass. This also applies on a passing lane. Trucks should allow faster vehicles to pass first then, when there are no faster vehicles behind, pull out and pass the slower truck.

Otherwise you get the ludicrous situation of two trucks being followed by a dozen other vehicles, a passing lane comes up, and because one truck passes another, the situation is still two trucks followed by a dozen or more cars.

On the other side of the coin, you end up with a big line of trucks, cause they no longer can pass slower vehicles as they are waiting for all the other vehicles to pass. Up AKL where there is so much traffic on the roads, it'd be a nightmare. Besides, it your behind the truck, whos to say who is slower and who is faster (although yes it might be obvious).
All I'm trying to point out is that the roads are there for everyone and we all have the privledge to use the same ones. I do not believe that anyone should get prefferential treatment just based on how fast they may or may not be able to travel.:corn: We all have the right to pass a slower vehicle in frount of us, no matter what we are riding or driving.

Jantar
30th December 2005, 05:10
... We all have the right to pass a slower vehicle in frount of us, no matter what we are riding or driving.

I fully agree. That is one of the reasons that when I am driving a slow vehicle I always give faster vehicles the chance to pass me before I will attempt to pass vehicles that are even slower than the one I'm driving. It is a legal requirement, but its also just common courtesy.

When towing a horse float, or driving a horse truck, I find that pulling over to allow faster vehicles to pass only adds on about 2 minutes per hour of driving. I never overtake slower vehicles on passing lanes if there are faster vehicles waiting to pass me.

Highlander
30th December 2005, 05:11
To a point I agree with what you are saying Inlinefour, but where you have two slow vehicles (not just because of their size, but the open road speed limit for trucks is less than other road users) it seems unreasonable that they should hold the other traffic back in what is often the only safe place to pass.
I did say that I realise they are as entitled to pass as any other road user (probably more so if you take road user charges into account).

A little more consideration from Professionals for other road users may prevent some of the stupid passing we see that puts us all at risk.

I agree with Jantars comment that where there is a line of vehicles behind them Truckies should allow them to pass first, then pass the other truck (pretty much the point I was trying to make initially).

I Do love that clip in your signature.

inlinefour
30th December 2005, 05:24
I fully agree. That is one of the reasons that when I am driving a slow vehicle I always give faster vehicles the chance to pass me before I will attempt to pass vehicles that are even slower than the one I'm driving. It is a legal requirement, but its also just common courtesy.

When towing a horse float, or driving a horse truck, I find that pulling over to allow faster vehicles to pass only adds on about 2 minutes per hour of driving. I never overtake slower vehicles on passing lanes if there are faster vehicles waiting to pass me.

That certianly sounds fair. However I'd expect you to pass grandma in her 1968 clapped out cortina who is travelling at 75kph and is totally oblivious to other road users.:(
Yep I agree Highlander, I just was thinking that there are allways the two sides (at least) to every situation. I suspect that in most passing lanes, by the time everyone else has passed, that the extra lane ends prior to the truck being able to pass itself.

MrMelon
30th December 2005, 11:47
Let me get this straight, you were doing 106 in an 80kmh zone, 26 k's over the limit and liable for a 230 dollar fine and 35 demerits or so. This 'prick' of a cop dares to pull you over and is rude enough to give you a ticket for 30 dollars and 10 demerit points.

And now you want to try and get off it because he marked down your speed?

Yep it sure is the cop who is the 'prick' here.

I appreciate the fact he didn't nail us to the full extent of the law for it, but it shouldn't have warranted a ticket in the first place since it was so obvious we were in the midle of nowhere, thought we were in a 100 zone and only doing 106. It's the demerits I'd rather not have. I don't care about the fine, but whatever.

scumdog
30th December 2005, 16:35
11 Hour day today, went to four crashes, got to shoot one of the 'offenders' - but it was only a wandering bull that got hit by a truck!
The crashes were caused hopeless drivers - although a couple of the cars involved were 'innocent parties' and got taken out by inferior drivers.:pinch:

Home now and FOUR days off, yeee-effing-hah!! :drinknsin

Drive/Ride safe people.:mellow:

SPman
30th December 2005, 17:39
The crashes were caused hopeless drivers - ....
Drive/Ride safe people.:mellow:
Business as normal........

Fatjim
30th December 2005, 17:53
A little more consideration from Professionals for other road users may prevent some of the stupid passing we see that puts us all at risk.


I'd like to say that I mainly get a fair go from truckies in Welly. If there are any here, cheers.

Now Taxi and bus drivers (Professional my arse), they scare the SH*T out of me.

mstriumph
30th December 2005, 18:25
pushbike couriers scare the crap outta me in perth ------- those guys have about as much roadsense as the local fauna [ie kangaroos] and probably similar insurance [ie none] ...

Highlander
30th December 2005, 19:15
:Oops: Didn't mean to tar them all with the same brush. :dodge:

Reality is that most are good, but occasionally there are few who let the side down (just like any group of people).

spudchucka
30th December 2005, 20:17
There was a well publicised case last year where the defendant proved by use of a GPS system the he wasn't speeding.
Funnily enough, there weren't any questions asked about why the Plod said he was.He didn't prove or dis-prove anything, he just created reasonable doubt, therefore the court can't convict.

Pixie
31st December 2005, 10:01
Rant on.

Just the fact that they love to hang around passing lanes pisses me off. How many times have you followed some muppet who's doing like 80km/h, then they get to the passing lane and accelerate rapidly to 100+?? Bloody heaps I'll bet! Wether it's through pig headeness or simply because the extra width of the road makes it feel slower, damn near EVERYONE speeds up at a passing lane, and then slows back down again afterwards. If you've just followed some numbnuts for the last 20km at 80km/h, you KNOW they're just gonna slow down again when the passing lane ends, so you have no option but to exceed the speed limit to get past. I'll bet the cops know this too, and I think it's pretty fucken low to sit around gathering revenue off frustrated drivers.

If they want to play fair they should target the left hand lane!

Rant off. Have a nice day.
Not pigheadedness...have to be first!
Kiwi sporting ethos

Pixie
31st December 2005, 10:04
On the other side of the coin, you end up with a big line of trucks, cause they no longer can pass slower vehicles as they are waiting for all the other vehicles to pass. Up AKL where there is so much traffic on the roads, it'd be a nightmare. Besides, it your behind the truck, whos to say who is slower and who is faster (although yes it might be obvious).
All I'm trying to point out is that the roads are there for everyone and we all have the privledge to use the same ones. I do not believe that anyone should get prefferential treatment just based on how fast they may or may not be able to travel.:corn: We all have the right to pass a slower vehicle in frount of us, no matter what we are riding or driving.
In the EU,trucks have to stay in the slow lane,or have a very good reason to be elsewhere

Lou Girardin
31st December 2005, 11:10
He didn't prove or dis-prove anything, he just created reasonable doubt, therefore the court can't convict.

He PROVED that at the time he was not speeding. He produced the data-log of the GPS, time, date and precise location. A bit more, actually, than the cop did.

spudchucka
2nd January 2006, 08:54
He PROVED that at the time he was not speeding. He produced the data-log of the GPS, time, date and precise location. A bit more, actually, than the cop did.
There was an article on telly the other day saying how inaccurate GPS is, (the most accurate units can apparently only pinpoint position within 10 metres).

He created reasonable doubt before a judge that didn't know any better.

marty
2nd January 2006, 09:12
we use gps extensively in my line of work. it gives us more trouble than most of the other systems put together, and each unit runs to about $100k. it's just not accurate enough, and there is much resistance in the aviation market to relying on it for instrument approaches and waypoints, due to its inabilitly to be checked against any other system. if the gps is out, and you're relying on it, there is simply no way of knowing that it is out.

still, if some tosser wants to spend what, $10 grand? on defending a $300ticket by creating reasonable doubt, then good on him. i would have enjoyed throwing reasonable doubt on his data though