Electical help RE: creating three phase

[pyrocam]

Ok so My washing machine broke, control board is fried. I am rebuilding it.

Gentlemen, we can rebuild It. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first pimped out washing machine. Our washing machine will be that washing machine . Better than it was before. Better, stronger, faster.
(more info on that will be here) (http://www.pyrocam.com)

But I've come across the problem of creating a three phase source to drive the agitator. I've had a read of this honking great big article here (http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Threephase_motors_101.html) to get a basic understanding but I'm finding myself a bit lacking as I dont understand it completely.

3 wires go into the coil array which I figure would look something like this: Over simplified and crappy:
22560
(Red = a coil)

now from what I gather. input 1, 2 and 3 need to be at 120 degree diference to each other at all times

22561
50Hz to -50hz top and bottom of graph, each color is a input (or phase?)


Ok, so firstly, can someone confirm my theories there.
and secondly, I would have assumed that even with 'three phase' there would beed to be a ground or somewhere for the power to leave the coil array
thirdly, how to a build a 3 phase converter for cheap. I'm a real no.#8 wire geek (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=18331&highlight=electrician) so I can make pretty much anything.

Thanks in advance

[WINJA]

run a lead to the neighbours on each side of you, cause of load sharing you should have a phase each , or buy a single to 3 phase inverter

[erik]

what do you want 3-phase for? why not just use single phase, like the original motor would have been?
We did some stuff on 3-phase stuff etc in my mechanical engineering course, it was confusing. maybe one of the electrical engineers will tell you something useful.

[WINJA]

what do you want 3-phase for? why not just use single phase, like the original motor would have been?
we did some stuff on 3-phase stuff etc in my mechanical engineering course, it was confusing. maybe one of the electrical engineers will tell you something useful.
most of it is not confusing , some of the american stuff is to complecated for no reason , i just spent 5 years doing mechanicals in aucks , chillers with a 1.2 megawatt cooling capacity each , some 3 phase compressors with an fla of 350 amps etc etc , lots of fun when your used to it

[Pixie]

Why don't you just fix the original driver board?

PS I've been in electronics for 29 years, which is why I don't buy shit like Fischer & Paykel hi tech housewares.
It's a friggen washing machine, it doesn't need electronics and a stepping motor drive.
I have an AEG, it's got a single phase induction motor, direct drive by belt,a mechanical timer and no gearbox and it will still be going when all the F'n'Pee stuff is rooted

[pyrocam]

Why don't you just fix the original driver board?

PS I've been in electronics for 29 years, which is why I don't buy shit like Fischer & Paykel hi tech housewares.
It's a friggen washing machine, it doesn't need electronics and a stepping motor drive.
I have an AEG, it's got a single phase induction motor, direct drive by belt,a mechanical timer and no gearbox and it will still be going when all the F'n'Pee stuff is rooted

It was the fuses that blew up not the caps. from what I read its ussuall because of an incorrect return voltage of one of the pumps. Also, in my experience If I just replaced the fuses they would just blow again.

I cant beleive what my flatmate did behind my back though. he just soldered over the two fuses (IE: lets just stick a nail in my fuse box) and said it was fixed. :slap: :Pokey:

22570

it looks a lot worse than this, that shadowy area at the top isnt shadow its burnt board

[WINJA]

why don't you just fix the original driver board?

ps i've been in electronics for 29 years, which is why i don't buy shit like fischer & paykel hi tech housewares.
it's a friggen washing machine, it doesn't need electronics and a stepping motor drive.
i have an aeg, it's got a single phase induction motor, direct drive by belt,a mechanical timer and no gearbox and it will still be going when all the f'n'pee stuff is rooted
aint that the truth , people are making things to complex for no reason

[Ixion]

Too right. Like, uh, oh , say 4 cylinder motorcycle engines. With all them overhead cams. And all those valves for each cylinder. And 6 speed gearboxes.
GSXR750: 4 pistons. 16 valves. 16 valve springs. 16 sets of seals . 16 sets of retainers. 2 camshafts. chain. 2 sprockets. Innumerable seals, nuts bolts etc.
GT750. 3 pistons. Done.

[WINJA]

too right. like, uh, oh , say 4 cylinder motorcycle engines. with all them overhead cams. and all those valves for each cylinder. and 6 speed gearboxes.
gsxr750: 4 pistons. 16 valves. 16 valve springs. 16 sets of seals . 16 sets of retainers. 2 camshafts. chain. 2 sprockets. innumerable seals, nuts bolts etc.
gt750. 3 pistons. done.
apart from hondas bikes get better every year, washing machines just wash clothes , do you think the get clothes cleaner than they did 10 or 20 years ago ? no. as for bikes most sports bikes are based on kawaskis 80s technology , ram air (high preasure source)and twinspar frame /1000rx , water cooled twincam ,4 cyl ,16 valve, 6 speed / gpz900

[Indiana_Jones]

Gentlemen, we can rebuild It. We have the technology, but I don't want to spend alot of money.....

-Indy

[Ixion]

apart from hondas bikes get better every year, washing machines just wash clothes , do you think the get clothes cleaner than they did 10 or 20 years ago ? no. as for bikes most sports bikes are based on kawaskis 80s technology , ram air and twinspar frame /100rx high preasure intake , water cooled twincam ,4 cyl ,16 valve, 6 speed / gpz900

Ah, water cooling. That's *another* unnecessary. REAL bikes have fins. And I bet that I could still do Auck->Wgtn-Auck non stop (except for petrol) as quick on a Velo 500 as you could on a GXSR1000 (or, I could if I still had the body I had 35 years ago )

[WINJA]

ah, water cooling. that's *another* unnecessary. real bikes have fins. and i bet that i could still do auck->wgtn-auck non stop (except for petrol) as quick on a velo 500 as you could on a gxsr1000 (or, i could if i still had the body i had 35 years ago )
your a fool then , on my regular trips away i would sit on about 250kmh some places , i go quite fast round corners and i overtake lines of 20 or more cars in one go , whatever the velo 500 is i bet it wont keep up , btw the gixxer gets good mileage from gas

[cowpoos]

apart from hondas bikes get better every year, washing machines just wash clothes , do you think the get clothes cleaner than they did 10 or 20 years ago ? no. as for bikes most sports bikes are based on kawaskis 80s technology , ram air and twinspar frame /100rx high preasure intake , water cooled twincam ,4 cyl ,16 valve, 6 speed / gpz900

yep...and so many people diss kawasaki??? they really do make a good bike...
they just don't do refined very well...but if refined is what you want...theres honda...and suzuki is always a good compramise

[froggyfrenchman]

Too right. Like, uh, oh , say 4 cylinder motorcycle engines. With all them overhead cams. And all those valves for each cylinder. And 6 speed gearboxes.
GSXR750: 4 pistons. 16 valves. 16 valve springs. 16 sets of seals . 16 sets of retainers. 2 camshafts. chain. 2 sprockets. Innumerable seals, nuts bolts etc.
GT750. 3 pistons. Done.


Amen.


Now pyro... three phase washing machine? you dropped yourself on the head lately? pt

[Dafe]

Are you sure you need to generate three phase? What makes you think this?

Standard household appliances are all single phase.

Have a look here... http://home.howstuffworks.com/washer.htm

[froggyfrenchman]

my point exactly

[pyrocam]

what makes me think its three phase is the 3 power inputs into the coil array and that its a fisher and paykel peice of crap that it is ..... uses a three phase motor perhaps?

http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=f%26p+smart+drive+three+phase&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/9/15/202239/040

In a smartdrive the magnets cover three poles each and that means all three phases at the same time.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/10/31/222436/36

The stock standard F&P motor is 3 phase.

http://www.theinventory.orcon.net.nz/smartdrives.htm

The F&P Smart drive washing machine uses an electronically controlled brushless motor which, after rewiring, can serve as an effective three phase permanent magnet alternator to charge a .........


Does anyone know where I can find wiring diagrams for a 240v 3 phase convertor, im still looking

[Ixion]

I believe the motors are polyphasic, with speed controlled by altering the lag between phases. But that DOESN'T mean they run off 440V 3ph. The supply is 230v single phase. Most bike alternators are three phase incidentally. But not 440V

[pyrocam]

ZING! I just think I figured out how to do it!

the coils are wired in such a way that the go around the ring and come back to the source. so If I seperate the input output wires from the connector point I can make each coil set run on DC

so the coils are going


ABCABCABCABCABCABCABCABCABC...ABC
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
^ ^
|----------------These are the same coils----------------|


So two wires are going from the connector to coil set A, one in and one at the other end of the coil.



So If setup a 555 timer, and throw a random voltage (lets say 12 for now) down line A then a few milliseconds later down line B and then Line C then back to A

I theorise that The motor will start a-spinnin'

[WINJA]

hope no ones confusing poles with phases . you can get , 3 phase 2 pole 1450 rpm at 50hz , 2 pole 2900rpm at 50hz and 6 pole at 750 rpm.
pyro your an idiot , just get a woman to wash your clothes

[pyrocam]

hope no ones confusing poles with phases . you can get , 3 phase 2 pole 1450 rpm at 50hz , 2 pole 2900rpm at 50hz and 6 pole at 750 rpm.
pyro your an idiot , just get a woman to wash your clothes

even a woman needs a washing machine. I dont go for those butch types you like winja that can use washboards

22641

I am afraid youve got me on the poles there though winja, I dont get those. but my new plan will work, and boy howdy will it work.... (unless someone can tell me why not)

[WINJA]

even a woman needs a washing machine. i dont go for those butch types you like winja that can use washboards

22641

i am afraid youve got me on the poles there though winja, i dont get those. but my new plan will work, and boy howdy will it work.... (unless someone can tell me why not)
bullshit your showing your inexperience , when my wifes washing machine broke i just got her to throw the washing in the bath tub add water and soap , then got the bitch to hop in and stomp on the clothes like they were grapes , you are never going to be a macho pig like me if you dont think outside the square

[onearmedbandit]

I found my new favourite thread. Thanks guys!

[pyrocam]

I guess her four legs provide more agitation for the clothes winja.


and stuff ya all ya unhelpful louts! Ive gotten the first coil set to run. 2 more and I have a spin cycle

[Sniper]

Well done mate.

[pyrocam]

(he-man) I HAVE THE POWER (/he-man)

I've made it start turning

now to hook up some sort of controller to make them work by them selves (dont want to be touching wires together really quickly to do my washing)

[froggyfrenchman]

you sir, are indeed insane.

[pyrocam]

you sir, are indeed insane.
just wish you could see a better quality image of my first distributor experiment.

it failed insanly since it required four hands to operate it and the brushes were to rigid causing the motor to slow down too much

not to mention the sparks

good fun though

actual 555 timers and relays next time methinks

edit: since you cant see it very well.
its a P120 processor fan upside down with a milk bottle lid hot glued to the top which has bare wire hanging out 1/4th of the diameter and 3 brushes (you can only see two here)

as the fan spins (with a variable resistor for speed) it sends voltage down each of the brushes as it passes it in its turn.

now I had to send voltage down the top of it so the milk bottle lid had power in it, so I hot glued a spring from a high-quality RCA jack to the cap and tied it to the copper wires hanging out the 1/4th diameter of the cap.

the gold thing in the middle is the spring.

the two metal bits hanging out are the brushes

(edit +4 pics)

[Phenoix]

Classic kiwi number 8 wire stuff there :niceone:

Just thought I'd point out, depending on your motor tho, unlike DC which is able to load bear and start spining in a set direriction based on electical fields, and AC motor has no starting way to spin due to an alternating voltage.
AC motors contain 2 set of coils, A primary (Main running) and a starter coil, offset by 90 degress (Could be 120)
The way the mashine choses to start is based on how you feed the power into the two coils.
If you contiuosly feed power into the start coil tho, you will blow it.

[Pixie]

The F&P direct drive motor isn't a three phase AC motor at all.
It is a BIG stepping motor, so you have to generate wave pulsed DC for each of the three sets of poles,in sequence.
Google stepping motor
www.fuckinggoogleit.com

[pyrocam]

The F&P direct drive motor isn't a three phase AC motor at all.
It is a BIG stepping motor, so you have to generate wave pulsed DC for each of the three sets of poles,in sequence.
Google stepping motor
www.fuckinggoogleit.com

thanks for your late input pixie. but google already told me otherwise
read my previous response to froggyfrenchman

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=455848&postcount=17

www.READINGTHETHREADFIRSTISYOURFRIEND.com

[froggyfrenchman]

well pyro, i must say well done. Thats some crazy looking shit right there, you are gonna have to post a video of it running when youre finnished.

When you started this thread, i didnt think you were gonna acheive anything other than passing 440V through yourself to earth. Now im sure ya can do it and im cheering you on. (unless acc rings me, then i warned you)

[pyrocam]

well pyro, i must say well done. Thats some crazy looking shit right there, you are gonna have to post a video of it running when youre finnished.

When you started this thread, i didnt think you were gonna acheive anything other than passing 440V through yourself to earth. Now im sure ya can do it and im cheering you on. (unless acc rings me, then i warned you)


Thanks mate. all we need now is 3 relay's for the motor and another 3 for the water input / output.

and sorry pixie I think i might of been a bit harsh. but I still doubt it was a stepping DC motor since all three coil array's ended up connecting to each other at the end. but I DO admit that is IS possible that I was wrong, although unlikely.

I have had to modify the coil array's to handle a DC stepping motor input.
a photo of my mod as soon as I find a SD card reader

[Pixie]

Thanks mate. all we need now is 3 relay's for the motor and another 3 for the water input / output.

and sorry pixie I think i might of been a bit harsh. but I still doubt it was a stepping DC motor since all three coil array's ended up connecting to each other at the end. but I DO admit that is IS possible that I was wrong, although unlikely.

I have had to modify the coil array's to handle a DC stepping motor input.
a photo of my mod as soon as I find a SD card reader
No offence taken.
I still think you will find that it is a big stepping motor.
Any stepping motor will act as a three phase alternator when it is driven.
Why don't you get one of the stepping motor driver kits from Jaycar or DSE,beef up the outputs with MOSFETs and drive your washing machine off your computer?

[pyrocam]

No offence taken.
I still think you will find that it is a big stepping motor.
Any stepping motor will act as a three phase alternator when it is driven.
Why don't you get one of the stepping motor driver kits from Jaycar or DSE,beef up the outputs with MOSFETs and drive your washing machine off your computer?

at this moment I have removed the end of the coil's link so they are no longer connected to each other and replaced it with 3 sets of wires. with 3 relay's and a timing circuit (which has already been built)

we have built a serial port interface (minus 3 tiny relay's) to test the speed of the circuit so we can ensure its running on time on all 3 coil array's

the test relay's should be purchased in the next couple of days so we can test it and assuming that goes well, the bigger relay's will be purchased after that.


the thing is this washing machine is being rebuilt at next to no cost since we want to make a hack job out of it and to show people that 'no user servicable parts inside' is a load of bollocks.

oh and btw it WILL eventually be running of a Compaq Proliant server for diagnostics, fine tuning and a web interface with data reporting not to mention the voice recognition..... but you already knew that huh.... cos you read the thread.... huh....

edit: by thread I meant the 'more info' link on the first post. sorry.

[Pixie]

'no user servicable parts inside' is a load of bollocks.

I take statements like this as a personal challenge,too.

[pyrocam]

the three brown wires on the right used to be all connected to each other.