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mops
28th December 2005, 15:13
Hi....

Driving around town I often find myself in that situation, yet I never know how to handle it properly, and I nearly came off the bike twice now.... :eek5:
I was hoping somebody more experienced will explain it to me :)

Here's the scenario:
You are driving 60kph, comming to the traffic lights (or other 90 degree junction) to turn left (or righ, it doesn't really matter, but assume left). You are using high gear, say 5th or 6th. You want to take the quick corner (I mean not excesively quick, but not slow down to 15 kph) - so you need to:
1. brake to reduce speed
2. reduce the gears before corner to use siutable in-corner gear (usually 2nd for me)

And here are my options....

1. braking entirely with rear wheel is not good enough, but allows me to change gears down, as it allows my rigth palm to blip throttle as I change gears down. I *can* change down to 2nd and slowly relase cluth durning the curve, but I dont think it's the right way, and it does feel dangerious and I had my rear wheel sliding for a split of a second which was very dangerous - nearly came off bike.

2. when braking with front wheel, i get the speed down ok, but as I change down gears, often the rear wheel will momentairly lock up and drift (esp. down on 3rd and 2nd gear), as I dont blip the throttle to match revs, because my right palm is busy pulling the front brake leaver.

It's almost like I should be both front-braking and bliping-throttle all with my right wrist, um... uh... it doesn't feel natural....

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can tell you want to have a correct gear fully engaged before you lean into the corner....

any ideas/comments ???

WRT
28th December 2005, 15:16
Shouldnt be too much of a prob to "blip" the throttle while applying the brake, its not massively difficult.

Bigger issue, is what are you doing in 5th or 6th at 60kph??? I'm normally in 3rd at that speed.

Sniper
28th December 2005, 15:22
That is bad. You should try the other manouver

James Deuce
28th December 2005, 15:22
As WRT says you have to practice downchanging, blipping the throttle and using the front brake all at the same time. 90% of your braking power is in your front brake.

mops
28th December 2005, 15:25
Shouldnt be too much of a prob to "blip" the throttle while applying the brake, its not massively difficult.

Bigger issue, is what are you doing in 5th or 6th at 60kph??? I'm normally in 3rd at that speed.

well, my bandit runs over 5krpm at 60kph in 6th and exacly 6krpm in 5th, and it does feel like engine cruising speed. I do realize it is ridicolous, but the gears are so close together and i spend maby a second on every gear while normally accelerating to 60kph. :spudwhat:

mops
28th December 2005, 15:27
As WRT says you have to practice downchanging, blipping the throttle and using the front brake all at the same time. 90% of your braking power is in your front brake.

road code for motorbikes claims it's 75%

LOL
never mind that. I'll have to try to learn properly. I'll try attending next meet, maby someone who know what they are doing will guide me :)

James Deuce
28th December 2005, 15:28
Seriously, get used to using lower gears. Ignore the noise. Emergency avoidance techniques involve acceleration as well as braking, and at that engine speed the Bandit will bog if you request maximum performance from the engine room.

James Deuce
28th December 2005, 15:29
road code for motorbikes claims it's 75%

LOL
never mind that. I'll have to try to learn properly. I'll try attending next meet, maby someone who know what they are doing will guide me :)

The road code model is based on 40 year old motorcycles. With drum brakes. Seriously. LTNZ knows exactly squat about motorcycle dynamics, or they wouldn't let roading engineers put manhole covers and big sheets of steel on the apex of corners, right where motorcycles need to run to be safest.

Lou Girardin
28th December 2005, 15:30
Learn to brake with two fingers while blipping the throttle with the others.

mops
28th December 2005, 15:34
Seriously, get used to using lower gears. Ignore the noise. Emergency avoidance techniques involve acceleration as well as braking, and at that engine speed the Bandit will bog if you request maximum performance from the engine room.

I'm not trying to argue, but at lower rpm's chaning down is easier and safer, as the engine is more willing to match the speed of the wheel. at higher rpm's the engine is more likely to skid the wheel if not matched up properly, which is dificult on it's own.

James Deuce
28th December 2005, 15:39
I'm not trying to argue, but at lower rpm's chaning down is easier and safer, as the engine is more willing to match the speed of the wheel. at higher rpm's the engine is more likely to skid the wheel if not matched up properly, which is dificult on it's own.

You need to practice blipping the throttle to match engine and wheel speed until it becomes second nature and you don't have to think about it. You've got less potential perfomance than a GN250's mid-range down there. I've owned a GSXR250 (17,000rpm redline, max torque at 10,500, max HP at 14,500), and they are much easier to ride with a fistful of revs onboard. It sounds and feels wrong at first, but that engine is made to be thrashed. Go on, you'll love it. :)

It is actually a safety issue as well, you need to be in the right gear, at the right revs, to be able to accelerate away cleanly and quickly if required.

mops
28th December 2005, 15:49
You need to practice blipping the throttle to match engine and wheel speed until it becomes second nature and you don't have to think about it. You've got less potential perfomance than a GN250's mid-range down there. I've owned a GSXR250 (17,000rpm redline, max torque at 10,500, max HP at 14,500), and they are much easier to ride with a fistful of revs onboard. It sounds and feels wrong at first, but that engine is made to be thrashed. Go on, you'll love it. :)

It is actually a safety issue as well, you need to be in the right gear, at the right revs, to be able to accelerate away cleanly and quickly if required.

my bandit redline starts at 14500, but the engine pulls till 18krpm.... I admit, it does feel gutles at 5krpm, it is siutable for just cruise but forget about quick acceleraion... I might overtage an old van ar 60kph, but that's it :)

I am concerned about longevity of the engine at crusing 9krpm... thats about motorway cruise speed....

I admit, more towards 8-10k rpm there's lot more power on-tap and acceleration can be snappy and quick and no wrx will hold on on a 'quick-stab' (or is it 'quick-twist' in bike world :) ) and pass :)

As I said, I'll get some proper synthetic oil and I'll go do some training :)

fishb8nz
28th December 2005, 15:55
Is this urban driving? Read the road ahead and just throttle back with minimal braking. Just means slowing down 50 metres earlier. Blip the throttle as you downshift to the appropriate gear. I'm an old fart but a very incident free one.
Is your 3rd gear too high for right angles and roundabouts?

James Deuce
28th December 2005, 15:57
As I said, I'll get some proper synthetic oil and I'll go do some training :)

Don't worry about longevity, and I'd probably use a semi-synth in your wee beast, just because a semi will leave traces in the bore and valve train for a little lube on start up, especially with the high revs that are called for almost immediately. I used to change oil every 3000kms in the GSXR250.

mops
28th December 2005, 16:09
Is this urban driving? Read the road ahead and just throttle back with minimal braking. Just means slowing down 50 metres earlier. Blip the throttle as you downshift to the appropriate gear. I'm an old fart but a very incident free one.
Is your 3rd gear too high for right angles and roundabouts?

yeach, 3rd is too high for right angle to the left, right and roundabouts possibly ok... I founf if I start braking too early, the traffick following me has to slow down too much and they are piling up on my tail as I slow down and they hardly leave any speace for stopping between me and the car behind, so if for any reason I come off the bike they will drive over me one by one until they will eventually.... technically this is how it's supposed to be done and definitely follows the road code,but I just dont trust other drivers, especially when I'm on the bike and definitely wouldnt leave my faith in their hands...

you see there might be a situation that where the car directly behind me does slow down in time, but the car behind him rams up his arse and that means I'm gonna get it... I just prefer to accelerate to get some distance, quickly slow down and turn it, without blocking the traffic behind me...

justsomeguy
28th December 2005, 16:14
Go find a lonely straight road and practice.

Which area do you live in?? I don't mind coming and practicing with you.

mops
28th December 2005, 16:23
Go find a lonely straight road and practice.

Which area do you live in?? I don't mind coming and practicing with you.

:)
I'm in auckland, sandringham, and I can get pretty much anywhere that does not involve using motorway (i dont have proper jacket yet and stuff)...

iwilde
28th December 2005, 16:24
It might be a good idea for you to do a riding coarse with a riding school like passrite, or anyone. If you're having trouble with the bisics like going around a corner, how will you react during an emergency, or if you're caught out riding when it starts to rain?

justsomeguy
28th December 2005, 16:32
:)
I'm in auckland, sandringham, and I can get pretty much anywhere that does not involve using motorway (i dont have proper jacket yet and stuff)...

That's quite close to where I live. Do you want to meet tomorrow??

EDIT : Tomorrow seems better.. or the day after, whichever is more convenient to you.

justsomeguy
28th December 2005, 16:34
It might be a good idea for you to do a riding coarse with a riding school like passrite, or anyone. If you're having trouble with the bisics like going around a corner, how will you react during an emergency, or if you're caught out riding when it starts to rain?

We all got to start somewhere bud - the course is a great idea. Don't know about pa$$rite prices...... but BRONZ do an awesome 8 hour course for $45.

Do a search on the site Mops.

inlinefour
28th December 2005, 16:41
First few times at the beginning I was locking the rear wheel on the TT under heavy braking. Problem was I was used to a revvy CBR. I find that if I Use braking, but not to the extreme and a good but of throttle just before changing down I manage to avoid locking the rear. Also having too much weight on the frount wheel is a hassle. I've re-learnt to lean back to get more weight to the back of the bike. The two bikes are a contrast of riding requirements, but I believe its helping me to improve my mojo.:banana:

bugjuice
28th December 2005, 16:58
why even bother blipping? just use the clutch without, and learn to do that later. It's only a 250..
And for braking, try using a couple of fingers, and learn to use your thumb and index to control the throttle..

Ixion
28th December 2005, 17:10
It's almost like I should be both front-braking and bliping-throttle all with my right wrist, um... uh... it doesn't feel natural....



Yep, that is *exactly* what you should be doing. And getting down out of the high gears sooner . 60kph coming up to a corner in 5th or 6th might be OK on a GN250. But your bike is a sprotbike. You need to change down a lot earlier, so by the time you get to sizing up the corner you're already in 3rd , maybe 4th at most. Even on the SRX250, which is a lot less revvy than your bike I wouldn't be higher than 4th. Then apply front brake with your fingers, twist your palm down to blip the throttle as you declutch (wrap on finger round the twistgrip if you have to), and Bob's your uncle, into 2nd , touch of rear brake just to steady, lean over into the corner on a steady throttle (I like to trail the rear brake m'self, but that's a personal choice thing), round the corner and power out.

Seems tricky at first , but you'll soon get used to it. Easier than double declutching a car with a non-synchro box actually.

mops
28th December 2005, 17:54
Yep, that is *exactly* what you should be doing. And getting down out of the high gears sooner . 60kph coming up to a corner in 5th or 6th might be OK on a GN250. But your bike is a sprotbike. You need to change down a lot earlier, so by the time you get to sizing up the corner you're already in 3rd , maybe 4th at most. Even on the SRX250, which is a lot less revvy than your bike I wouldn't be higher than 4th. Then apply front brake with your fingers, twist your palm down to blip the throttle as you declutch (wrap on finger round the twistgrip if you have to), and Bob's your uncle, into 2nd , touch of rear brake just to steady, lean over into the corner on a steady throttle (I like to trail the rear brake m'self, but that's a personal choice thing), round the corner and power out.

Seems tricky at first , but you'll soon get used to it. Easier than double declutching a car with a non-synchro box actually.

I'll try that on my next ocasion. I'm mainly talking about 90degree junction style conrners, which you have to really slow down to 2nd gear, from 5th or 6th...

madboy
28th December 2005, 18:05
You might be overthinking this whole thing a bit much Mops. How much about riding feels natural when you first start to do it? Blipping the throttle while using the front brake is quite easy once you get used to it, and it's the option I highly recommend.

I personally would not recommend Buggy's suggestion re: 2 fingers on the brake. Buggy is a good rider with a fair bit of experience. You don't sound like you fit that category yet. Until you do, my view is that you keep as many fingers over that brake lever as possible, more fingers = more control. You can cover the brake with four fingers and blip the throttle at the same time. I do it. You might be a bit jerky to start with, but it's like everything, practice makes perfect. Also be gentle on letting the clutch out. Dumping it relies on the revs being pretty damn right, and chances are they're not going to be until you've got blipping mastered.

Don't be too worried about the back end locking up. Really. If you're upright and it's dry, then it's not a big issue. I went down one gear too many at the end of the straight at Taupo the other day and then had to turn into the corner while the back end was still wiggling, and I'm a rider of only modest ability. No drama. But of course you're going to go out now and practice blipping and the whole arse wobble will be null and void.

Motu
28th December 2005, 18:49
Maybe you've got too much weight on your hands,sprotbikes do that to you,and it's not a good way to learn fine control - I ride trials bikes which are all about fine control...and weight on the bars is a no no.You also may be trying to come down too many gears too fast - even under racing conditions each downshift should be deliberate,well spaced and under your control at all times - madly slamming away at gear lever and clutch and blindly hoping you get it right is the actions of someone like me who even after 35 yrs still comes into corners and out the other side trying to find the right gear to be in.....

Ixion
28th December 2005, 18:51
I'll try that on my next ocasion. I'm mainly talking about 90degree junction style conrners, which you have to really slow down to 2nd gear, from 5th or 6th...

Yeah, but 90 degree corners usually implies built up area. Why are you in 5th or 6th at under 100kph on that bike. Change down to 4th or 3rd way before the corner, as soon as you know you're going to have to go round it. Keep your speed steady, then when you chnage down it's ownly one or two changes . 5th should be regarded as an overdrive in built up areas on a 4cyl 250. I wouldn'y use 6th at all, except maybe down along hill .

You're trying to drive it like a car, or a GN250 , you gotta let it rev. Those motors can take it, 10000 rpm is nothing to them

sugilite
28th December 2005, 18:57
I'm with bugjuice on this one, blipping is just an unnecessary distraction on a bike such as this.
Even with a high compression superbike motor in race conditions, one can use the clutch without blipping and have no lock up problems.

Planning ahead is key.
With motorcycles, you should be planning on what your doing next, rather than what you are doing just right at that time.
With practice things will start to flow for you.

Your motor is designed to be run in the higher rev zone, it is actually worse for your motor to "lug" it around than it is to rev it hard. Find the happy medium of the two for suburban and motorway riding.

James Deuce
28th December 2005, 19:00
I'm with bugjuice on this one, blipping is just an unnecessary distraction on a bike such as this.

It's vital to riding it smoothly.

RantyDave
28th December 2005, 19:06
2. when braking with front wheel, i get the speed down ok, but as I change down gears, often the rear wheel will momentairly lock up and drift (esp. down on 3rd and 2nd gear)

Use the clutch, for a change, and let it back out more gently. I get manic rear wheel excitement if I don't use the engine braking in a subtle fashion.

Dave

Mental Trousers
28th December 2005, 19:26
Sounds like you just need a lot of practice and getting to know your bike.

I suggest finding a nice big empty carpark, set up some sort of course and ride around it until you can do it with your eyes close (figuratively speaking of course). Then change it. And do it all over again.

Practice things like braking and going down gears in a straight line until it's second nature, then add a slight corner until you've got it sussed, then do it on a sharper corner, then a 90', then something sharper. Go around your little course without using the brakes at all (highly recommend doing this) so you can get a feel for what gear you should be in for each corner, go a little quicker each time until the bike starts to get out of hand (note the word "starts") then back off a little and you've got the right speed for that corner.

myvice
28th December 2005, 19:59
I am concerned about longevity of the engine at crusing 9krpm... thats about motorway cruise speed....

I admit, more towards 8-10k rpm there's lot more power on-tap and acceleration can be snappy and quick and no wrx will hold on on a 'quick-stab' (or is it 'quick-twist' in bike world :) ) and pass :)

As I said, I'll get some proper synthetic oil and I'll go do some training :)
If I can’t kill my one, you won’t have a chance!
Redline the thing! The only way you can blow it up is by taunting the I.R.A!
:devil2:
I put Motul 10-40 synthetic in mine and change it every 5000ks with the filter.

bugjuice
28th December 2005, 20:01
It's vital to riding it smoothly.
yes, it is, but how about he just works on riding and safe, then work on smoothly in time..?
breaking with two or three fingers isn't anything hard at all. I learnt that from mountain biking, and it just came with me to motorbikes..

mops
28th December 2005, 21:44
Maybe you've got too much weight on your hands,sprotbikes do that to you,and it's not a good way to learn fine control - I ride trials bikes which are all about fine control...and weight on the bars is a no no.You also may be trying to come down too many gears too fast - even under racing conditions each downshift should be deliberate,well spaced and under your control at all times - madly slamming away at gear lever and clutch and blindly hoping you get it right is the actions of someone like me who even after 35 yrs still comes into corners and out the other side trying to find the right gear to be in.....

yes, indeed I feel that i'm supporting too much of my body (read lard :) ) weight on the handle bars... it probably because i have to be leaned over ro comfortable reach handle bars...

I'm not sure whether I should sit more towards the rear or towards the front and should I move my weight front/back durnign e.g. cornering...

mops
28th December 2005, 21:48
That's quite close to where I live. Do you want to meet tomorrow??

EDIT : Tomorrow seems better.. or the day after, whichever is more convenient to you.

myvice says friday is ok with him, we can do a littel meet-up

for me is after hours only, as i work till 6 :(

mops
28th December 2005, 21:49
God knows you need it.
Please dont teach this boy anything. Ive seen you going around corners.

um... er.... uh....

are you serious ? :blink:

mops
28th December 2005, 21:53
Bollocks mate. Third is still probably too high. Second is better. Your probably not used to high revving motors like motorcycles have (if i read between the lines correctly you are an ex-car enthusiest).
6th gear doing 60 kph is way to high for ANY bike, even Waylanders cruiser ffs.
Try sticking around 4th gear for town riding....if I can do it on a TL you can on your bike.
Chop down 2 gears for the corner BEFORE you get to it, bit of front brake, then let the brake go just before tipping in to the corner, look at your exit then roll the throttle on for a clean exit.

It isnt overly necassary to match revs (throttle blip) as you down change but it helps for smooth changes. If your locking the rear on a down change then you are letting the clutch out too quick. It is possible to use a couple of fingers over your brake lever while using the palm of your hand and remaining two fingers to blip the throttle.
Also dont let JustSomeGuy teach you anything. He needs to go to bike school first.

well, yes you are right... i'm a car enthusiast and I assumed normal riding/crusing speed whould be about 1/3 or max engine rpm. having said that on my way from work i was keeping 8krpm and indeed it felt good :)

emaN
28th December 2005, 22:04
hire an Isle of Man video/dvd; skip to the on-board footage and listen to what they do.
'course, they gods on wheels and all that, but basic principles apply to us mere mortals too.

pritch
28th December 2005, 22:46
hire an Isle of Man video/dvd; skip to the on-board footage and listen to what they do.
'course, they gods on wheels and all that, but basic principles apply to us mere mortals too.

Not too sure about that, taking Shaun Harris' 2003 winning lap as a for instance: he is at maximum revs virtually all the way (except where effected by fog). His comments on keeping the weight off the front wheel, using the throttle to steady the bike, the effect of lean angle on gearing, and his comments on his thought processes etc are highly informative but rather too far advanced to answer the original question here.

The original poster needs to know that he should be at the correct speed in the correct gear as he arrives at the corner. He probably needs to learn two finger braking so that he can brake and blip the throttle at the same time. When he can do that well enough so that he doesn't lock up the wheel on downshifts maybe he can look at learning other necessary but still fundamental skills.

iwilde
29th December 2005, 09:50
That's a great idea justsomeguy, I went riding with a few friends that have been ridind since they could walk, I lern't so much in one afternoon that I'm sure it's saved my skin a few times in my short riding exprience. I'ts good to see an exprienced rider passing on some skills.

WRT
29th December 2005, 10:16
Just as a foot note to a lot of the tips already posted in here, you dont need to "blip" the throttle, just as effective is if you dont roll it all the way back to the stopper when you back off, hold it just slightly on, say enough to give you 2-3000rpm with the clutch in, the engine will naturally meet the wheels speed with a minimum of fuss and you wont lock up or have to worry about letting the clutch out at just the right time. Means you can focus more on the brakes.

Speaking of which, you should be able to quite comfortably brake using two fingers, with the other two still around the throttle. In fact, you can also maintain throttle control with four fingers on the brake, and just using your thumb and palm on the grip. Just find whatever feels natural to you, but it does pay to work on getting these things sorted now, rather than having to train yourself out of bad habits further down the track.

And for all those that say you shouldnt brake with two fingers because they limit how far back you can pull the lever, if you can pull it far enough back to squash your fingers, get your brakes looked at - theres something not right there.

Good luck for learning these techniques, its good that you are going to meet up with some other riders who can help out and pass on some advice. Always look to improve your riding, you will never know it all, and you should always be trying to improve your style - its the best way to remain upright on the bike. Its good to see that you arent afraid to ask!

betti
29th December 2005, 10:57
get your braking done BEFORE you get to the corner, the correct gear will come with practise, but on a small high revving bike, the lower the gear the better, in case you need to accelerate around an obstruction or pedestrian/ball/dog/cat, (delete as necessary).
If it feels unsafe generally you're goin too fast!.

As a beginner K.I.S.S. applies at all times Keep It Simple Stupid (No offence meant) dont worry about two finger brakin, blippin or all the other complicated stuff you'll get it in time.:done:

Biff
29th December 2005, 11:16
Yup - what the rest have said...change down gears and use the front brake for maximum braking effect, but try your best to use both brakes in order to maintain optimum balance and control of your machine. If you brake too hard on the front the forks will compress, not ideal when you're about to take a tight turn.

It sounds as though you're hitting a 90 degree bend too fast anyway if the back wheel locks up. At least when taking the corner at a lower speed, in a lower gear, you have more engine control around the corner (in terms of getting the bike setup for powering out of the corner, engine braking, and coping with any 'unexpected' incidents).

Me? I try and avoid using my brakes at all - relying on the bikes gears to achieve optimum speed and control for taking tight corners. Unless there's a cage close behind, in which case I sometimes pump my brakes slightly to get the rear brake lights to flash, warning any potential muppet that I'm slowing down.

HDTboy
29th December 2005, 11:41
Mops: Listen to Motu, my bike's similar gearing to yours and I rarely use 4th in town. You'll find it easier to go down two gears than to go down 4

The reason the bike's pulling 9000rpm at 100kph is because that's where it's most efficient, that's also a good amount of revs to be pulling around town

Korea
29th December 2005, 12:15
A lot of good advice from everyone...

About the weight on your arms: At higher speeds the wind and acceleration will probably take enough weight off your forearms to keep you comfortable.
At slower speeds (i.e. around town) try gripping the fuel tank with your knees a little - takes the weight off a bit.

Meanwhile, blipping practice: Find a nice clear bit of road to speed up/slow down on and practice down changes, matching engine revs to rear-wheel speed by clutch-in, blip, clutch (well-timed and smooth) out WITHOUT the brake first. Start off with changing at slower speeds and work up to faster deceleration/down changes using the engine braking. At faster downchanges you'll be revving (wringing) the engine quite a bit to keep the engine speed matching the rear wheel speed without locking up.

Ultimately, the blipping thing isn't too important for beginners and small bikes (even 4 cylinder 600s don't seem to need it so much) because the engine compression isn't really high enough to lock-up the back during a muffy down-change. Bigger bikes are coming out with slipper clutches too, so you can be more ham-fisted with the throttle.

Most importantly: Blipping sounds cool!!! Rooowl- Rrrrowwlll-Rrrrrrrooooowl! (Just kidding; don't attract unnecessary attention to yourself)

The Stranger
29th December 2005, 12:54
So ok, why blip the throttle on the way down.

Is it to actually get the gear to engage (like some older cars) or to prevent wheel lockup - or some other reason?

mops
29th December 2005, 13:03
So ok, why blip the throttle on the way down.

Is it to actually get the gear to engage (like some older cars) or to prevent wheel lockup - or some other reason?

do drop down a gear quickly and smoothly, wihout jerking, skiding wheel (either way), changing the speed of the bike.

Ixion
29th December 2005, 13:07
So ok, why blip the throttle on the way down.

Is it to actually get the gear to engage (like some older cars) or to prevent wheel lockup - or some other reason?

Both. Blipping works like double declutching in a car, cos of the inherent drag in a wet clutch (blipping does NOT work on a BMW with a dry clutch - GRRR ) . That helps to get the speeds of the gears closer so that the change is smoother. And with the engine revving a bit you are less likely to lock up the rear wheel (not that I consider that a big deal myself)

The Stranger
29th December 2005, 13:43
do drop down a gear quickly and smoothly, wihout jerking, skiding wheel (either way), changing the speed of the bike.

Is it really quicker? don't you have to wait momentarily with the clutch disengaged whilst the engine revs build then change the gear?

As to jerking or skidding that is easily controlled by how you release the clutch isn't it?
I may drop the clutch into a corner to slide the back so as it is more closely aligned to the exit angle, or I can just release it as slowly as I want to maintain traction or even apply a little accelerator as I am releasing so as to maintain a constant speed, say for climbing a hill.

enigma51
29th December 2005, 13:47
So what if the rear is slding you should have your corner speed sorted before you enter the corner and you should rather concentrate on entry position as well as exit position. If you are getting rear weel slide your are either braking too late or going to fast so try braking earlier and not dropping the gears down to quickly you are not on race track so no sliding or late braking is needed.

You should also try and teach yourself the two finger braking method. and what ever you do dont get justsomeguy (sorry mate) to teach you he is still needs alot of training.

Phurrball
29th December 2005, 13:47
Lots of good advice to be had here Mops. Great to hear you're getting out and about on that Bandit of yours. I second what people have said about the 'zone' of these bikes - there's really not much there below 7k RPM, I never use 6th around town - mostly 4th (will depend on your sprockets of course).

Practice the throttle blipping - it becomes second nature after a while, and sounds cool! At the moment, you're right where I was a few months back when I first started regularly riding my Bandit...give it time, take it easy, and plan ahead where possible - you'll pick it up quick enough.

Maybe catch ya for a Bandit ride when I get back to Aucks - I'm missing my bike horribly...:weep:

mops
29th December 2005, 13:48
Is it really quicker? don't you have to wait momentarily with the clutch disengaged whilst the engine revs build then change the gear?

As to jerking or skidding that is easily controlled by how you release the clutch isn't it?
I may drop the clutch into a corner to slide the back so as it is more closely aligned to the exit angle, or I can just release it as slowly as I want to maintain traction or even apply a little accelerator as I am releasing so as to maintain a constant speed, say for climbing a hill.

easy for you to say......

The Stranger
29th December 2005, 14:11
The reality is you shoud be down to cornering speed sooner.

Using "a car up your arse" as an excuse is wrong.
If a car is up your arse you should begin slowing way way sooner to give the driver as much time as possible to slow down. Leaving it all to last minute is a recipe for a mistake. No matter who makes it you know who will come out worst.

If blipping the throttle is a turn on for you by all means do it, but the point I was trying to make, in a round about way is you probably don't NEED to blip the throttle, so concentrate on the other skills first.

Contrary to some advice given in this thread I would strongly recommend that you DON'T use the 2 finger braking method, particularly whilst learning. It leads to 2 potential problems.
1) In an emergency your 2 fingers that are still on the throttle may impede the travel of the brake lever and necessitate the release of the brake lever or result in reduced braking effectiveness.
2) Again usually in an emergency situation, it is not uncommon for a rider to inadvertantly apply throttle as they apply the brake, thus decreasing braking effectiveness.

Marmoot
29th December 2005, 14:51
don't blip, but change gear down rapidly to induce rear wheel lock.
When the wheel lock and lose traction, quickly apply abundant throttle and pop out the clutch, this will induce rear wheel slide.
Look where you want to go and coutersteer to safety. Feather the throttle but don't cut it out. keep the wheel spinning through the corner.
Do it Mick Doohan style.
Disclaimer: Make sure you have life insurance. No need for bike insurance coz you won't live through it. don't do this unless you have a deathwish.

SERIOUSLY, WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO LOCK THE REAR WHEEL CONSISTENTLY DURING DOWNCHANGE UNDER 60KPH (LOW REVS)??????

If you need a serious riding coaching, message (PM) me and I'll work out a time. Sounds there is something really really wrong in your normal riding. I live around Mt. Albert. Buy me a can of Sprite.

Mr Skid
29th December 2005, 15:00
don't blip, but change gear down rapidly to induce rear wheel lock.
When the wheel lock and lose traction, quickly apply abundant throttle and pop out the clutch, this will induce rear wheel slide.That might work on a SP1, but this is a 250 we're talking about here!

Hard on the front brakes to unload the rear, then cog down to the gear you want to exit the corner in. Feather the clutch, enough to yaw the rear out, but not too much to get the rear chattering.

How much lock does a 250 Bandit have?

mops
29th December 2005, 15:03
don't blip, but change gear down rapidly to induce rear wheel lock.
When the wheel lock and lose traction, quickly apply abundant throttle and pop out the clutch, this will induce rear wheel slide.
Look where you want to go and coutersteer to safety. Feather the throttle but don't cut it out. keep the wheel spinning through the corner.
Do it Mick Doohan style.
Disclaimer: Make sure you have life insurance. No need for bike insurance coz you won't live through it. don't do this unless you have a deathwish.

SERIOUSLY, WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO LOCK THE REAR WHEEL CONSISTENTLY DURING DOWNCHANGE UNDER 60KPH (LOW REVS)??????

If you need a serious riding coaching, message (PM) me and I'll work out a time. Sounds there is something really really wrong in your normal riding. I live around Mt. Albert. Buy me a can of Sprite.

ok, i think this me wheel sliding thing got a bit over-rated. I dont do it all the time durning normal riding, just wne I'm trying to take fast left 90 degree junction-corner. usually dropping down 1 or 2 gears is NOT a problem, only when I have to drop 3-4 gears to get into sharp left turn (cos for right turn, you get 1 more lane of width, and that usually allows higher speed through corner and therefore higher gear). Note if I drop even 5 gears down properly (i.e. slowly) I remain in full control of the bike and nothing is sliding...

from this discussing I gather to do those left handers quick I'll have to learn to blip the throttle and brake at the same time to do it quick, which is ok, I understand that and definitely I know I'll get better with more practice.

Marmoot
29th December 2005, 15:49
from this discussing I gather to do those left handers quick I'll have to learn to blip the throttle and brake at the same time to do it quick, which is ok, I understand that and definitely I know I'll get better with more practice.

Not really.
You should establish your corner entry speed BEFORE the start of the corner. So, if you cannot slow down properly, then try starting to slow down earlier.
For instance, if you normally brake at 50m before the corner and you are having difficulty as in your first posting, then try to start braking at 75m. And so on and so forth.

Ideally, even if you muck up your braking process and lock the wheel in downchange process, it would be in a straight line. NOT in the corner itself.

You learn anything here?

bugjuice
29th December 2005, 16:57
usually dropping down 1 or 2 gears is NOT a problem, only when I have to drop 3-4 gears to get into sharp left turn
are you dropping down these gears all in one go without letting the clutch out?

mops
29th December 2005, 17:00
are you dropping down these gears all in one go without letting the clutch out?

I try to clutch in/out evey gear, but sometimes (only when I have to reduce to neutral or 1st), I block-downshift all the way.

bugjuice
29th December 2005, 17:03
well there's another issue then. While you're still traveling at some speed, your engine will die down quickly to idle while you bang down the gears, and then you drop the clutch out.. and you wonder why it locks up? Do one gear at a time, take more time, and set up in time for the corner.

justsomeguy
29th December 2005, 18:03
God knows you need it.
Please dont teach this boy anything. Ive seen you going around corners.

You should also try and teach yourself the two finger braking method. and what ever you do dont get justsomeguy (sorry mate) to teach you he is still needs alot of training.
My dearest Armchair Critics and Gossip Mongers (neither of you have really seen me ride or know me) - I didn't say teach - I said:


Go find a lonely straight road and practice.

Which area do you live in?? I don't mind coming and practicing with you.

I honestly find it funny how you are so quick to criticise others, yet so humorously vulnerable when someone points out your fallacies. Enigma that bit about you cutting corners was good entertainment. SpeedMedic whatever rocks your boat little man, I hope you get a life someday. By the way - did I miss the bit where either of you offered to do anything to help Mops out, apart from show off your knowledge of motorcycle jargon?

Mops - I have nothing to prove, the easiest thing for you to do is go out and practice and I'm happy to do that with you and MyVice tomorrow.

Learning the science behind what makes gears turn and finding out fancy methods are great but you'll learn that in time anyway if that is the sort of subject matter you find interesting, it won't suddenly make you an ace gear changer overnight.

Finding a road and practicing and attending a professional course such as the Passrite and BRONZ events are still what I recommend.
Either case relax and enjoy it, aren’t bikes fun :)

Ixion
29th December 2005, 20:01
I try to clutch in/out evey gear, but sometimes (only when I have to reduce to neutral or 1st), I block-downshift all the way.

Ouchy. Not a good idea on a 4 stroke bike gearbox. 'Tis different to a car. Always one at a time. You can get away with it on a twosmoker, but even there it's hard on the box.

justsomeguy
30th December 2005, 08:57
Ive have seen plenty or your "riding". Dont want to know you, but it makes no difference to your riding... Dont Know Rossi, but he can fuckin ride.



I have a wonderful life thanks, for your concern anyway. Lovely wife, child, great job and plenty of family and freinds. Having a ball.



Oh no it is there, just scroll up a bit, yeah you musta missed that bit where I gave some helpful advice. Good how mops has been listening to it eh? Maybe you could learn something.

Thank God for that..

Dont be starting any shit slinging Apu, cause you will find your self very lost. I've edited the really embarrasing bits I wrote, out again, tempt me to put em back in.

Hahaha - you just proved my point about being a sad, vulnerable person.

Put back whatever crap you want to put in....... you're not capable of much more than some foul mouthed criticism anyway........

Life's too short for this bullshit, see ya.

enigma51
30th December 2005, 09:19
My dearest Armchair Critics and Gossip Mongers (neither of you have really seen me ride or know me) - I didn't say teach - I said:


:drinkup: :laugh:

emaN
2nd January 2006, 19:51
Mops: Listen to Motu, my bike's similar gearing to yours and I rarely use 4th in town.

yes...this is very true - i can personally attest & vouch for his honesty here. He uses 1st, 2nd and what sounds like a 2nd 1/2... to keep those revs up there with Lucy and her diamonds!
:2thumbsup

Leong
20th January 2006, 13:39
Hi Mops,
Found this thread few days ago and wanted to post but haven't found time... Too busy working or riding!! You might have moved on in abilities by now.... and if so, I'd be keen to know how your'e getting on.

I had the same thoughts as you when I started riding... not that I'm that much better now... Changing up at relatively low revs, and still in a car mentality. Realised that the red line on my bike was 12krpm but still, 5k felt like thrashing it. If you haven't already, you will get used to using more revs. The VTR250 is doing 7krpm in top gear at 100km/h and I'm now quite happy to cruise along at that rpm all day. That close ratio box - you will really enjoy this when you start thrashing it - it's great changing up and having the revs drop you right back in the meaty part of the powerband.

As for blipping the throttle on downchanges, I've only just started doing this, preferring to concentrate on other skills up to now. I thought it was more important to be able to move off smoothly, change gear at the appropriate time, release the clutch smoothly so the rear wheel doesn't lock up, use indicators correctly, judge corner entry speed and which gear to be in, before learning to blip the throttle and use the front brake at the same time. ( I think all the instructors I have come across have favoured the 4 finger braking ). Learning to use your front and rear brakes at the appropriate time, instinctively is also more important. I can remember not even being able to find the rear brake, when I started.

I also think all of this should be done in a safer environment, where cars aren't going to run up yr bum...., or you're not going to ride into oncoming traffic if you take a corner too fast and go wide. They are an unnecessary and possibly dangerous distraction, at a time when a lot of your attention is on the basic motorcycle handling, which eventually will become habit and second nature. A nice quiet subdivision with a cul de sac.... preferably one that splits into a tee at the end, can make good "tracks"... just make up a "track" that includes many gear changes, sweeping and hairpin turns, and just get out there in the evenings and practice, practice , practice, until you're happy with your riding. Then make your "track" larger...

If you don't have to commute on the bike, then dont, until you're confident that you are more in control of yr bike, and to a certain degree the situation you put yourself in when on the bike.

Good luck

mops
20th January 2006, 14:35
Thanks for a good word of advice.

Yes, I've been commutin on entirely on my bike last few weeks (can is out of action and the wheather is great).

I'm more comfortable now with using more rpm's. Depending on how in rush I am I can shift up up at 6k rpm or 16k rpm.... :)

I even took a short motorway trip the other day :)
was very windy and I was being thrown around the lane alot. however next to me there was this big fat dude on a huge harley, and the wind didnt seem to affect him....

basically, i'm improving slowly but surly, slowly exploring 'the envelope' trying to to do stoopid thinks :)

and yesterday 5pm traffick pissed me off so much that I had to split lanes at traffic lights !

still... for that very scenario.. slowing down from 70kph to 15 kph and dropping down 4 gears could be improved in terms of smoothness if you know what I mean :)

JWALKER
20th January 2006, 14:42
Thanks for a good word of advice.

Yes, I've been commutin on entirely on my bike last few weeks (can is out of action and the wheather is great).

I'm more comfortable now with using more rpm's. Depending on how in rush I am I can shift up up at 6k rpm or 16k rpm.... :)

I even took a short motorway trip the other day :)
was very windy and I was being thrown around the lane alot. however next to me there was this big fat dude on a huge harley, and the wind didnt seem to affect him....

basically, i'm improving slowly but surly, slowly exploring 'the envelope' trying to to do stoopid thinks :)

and yesterday 5pm traffick pissed me off so much that I had to split lanes at traffic lights !

still... for that very scenario.. slowing down from 70kph to 15 kph and dropping down 4 gears could be improved in terms of smoothness if you know what I mean :)

it is really good to see you improving.like the others said practice is the key.
i am still learning my bike and its a little bigger than yours, the wind still throws me around now and then, but you get used to it after awhile.
the more you ride, the more confident you will get, just go at your own pace and you will improve alot quicker, if you ever want anything answered or help, let me know

mops
20th January 2006, 14:53
Great.

I really wouldnt mind attending a meet in auckland area, to meet up with fellow KB'ers and get some tips from experienced riders. Next time there's one held (that doesnt involve riding 500km's), i'm in :)

Leong
20th January 2006, 21:56
Great.

I really wouldnt mind attending a meet in auckland area, to meet up with fellow KB'ers and get some tips from experienced riders. Next time there's one held (that doesnt involve riding 500km's), i'm in :)

Have you registered for Weasels Newbies ride next weekend? Looks like it'll be a good one. Once you're reasonably confident, you learn a lot more when riding with others.... only problem is that you mustn't push beyond your abilities.... ie ride at your own pace...

Yes the wind is something you get used to... just takes time.



the more you ride, the more confident you will get,

Yep, What he said

Qkchk
20th January 2006, 22:02
Bigger issue, is what are you doing in 5th or 6th at 60kph???
That is my point too.........

DingDong
20th January 2006, 22:16
??? use lower gears... you dont need to "blip" the engine under de-cel unless your pulling alot of RPM.

Someones surely said this (cant be bothered reading the thread)

Rider training is for people like you... spend money to save money/injury

Dafe
20th January 2006, 22:25
If you buy a K6 Gixxer thou, you can ride 1st gear everywhere, unless you want to go over 170kph. Now you can ride all over town, no gera changing needed! Problem Solved!

2much
20th January 2006, 22:31
Yeah, but if you buy a K6 then you've got to wait till march/april to ride cause of a world shortage of titanium and carbonfibre or some shit. By then the weather will be shitty and cold and you'll have to stay in the garage and polish your new beast...... hey problem solved! what great advice!

mops
21st January 2006, 08:43
Have you registered for Weasels Newbies ride next weekend? Looks like it'll be a good one.

sounds great, but for the life of me, I cant find that thread..... help ?

yungatart
21st January 2006, 09:10
I haven't figured out how to post links yet, but try the calendar.

Ixion
21st January 2006, 09:21
Here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=22821