Drinking age / driving accident statistics

[Swoop]

There is some very compelling evidence regarding the lowering of the drinking age Vs driving accident statistics.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10361708

Females have a very high increase!

Scary stuff. But will the government raise the age back up to 20 and risk losing out on all the extra $$$ generated?

[myvice]

Read a report a while ago that said that using a mobile phone in a car was as bad as driving while under the influence.
Now assuming our fearless leaders can read, and assuming they have read this report, hidden as it was in a national news paper, we can safely surmise that they will use every means at there disposal to launch an investigation into the monetary impact of youth drink driving and how to give themselves another 10% wage rise backdated 6 months ago.
Then they will do nothing for two years until its election time and it’s a nice hot topic.
They would look into using a cell phone in cars but as they all do this it’s not in there best interests.
What, where you expecting leadership?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[digsaw]

:eek: just more of the same bullshit:violin: yar get what you vote for :buggerd:

[gamgee]

i think it's bullshit, fuck the media machine
what did they think would happen to the drink driving incidents in the 18-20 bracket when they lowered the legal drinking age? that it would stay the same? get real! what they should be more concerned about is that the shock tactic style advertising is not having the desired impact on females, who it seems, rather than watching, will turn away and miss the carnage and final message.
I watched the news tonight for the first time in weeks, and it's just unbearable the utter stupidity with which some of the reports and research statistics are presented, just frustrating that shit like this is put on tv

[Sniper]

Hahahaha, females can't drive

[TwoSeven]

Scary stuff. But will the government raise the age back up to 20 and risk losing out on all the extra $$$ generated?

Yeah, like 15-18 year olds pay their fines on time :)

Put the age of driving up to at least 18 and alchohol to 20 or 21 and actually teach people how to drive properly would be a start :)

Printing a license on the back of the skippy cornflake packet and giving it to a 15 year old is really no a good idea.

[Str8 Jacket]

Scary stuff. But will the government raise the age back up to 20 and risk losing out on all the extra $$$ generated?

I wonder if they may save $$ as there will be less $$ spent on resources, in the long run??..

[gamgee]

Yeah, like 15-18 year olds pay their fines on time :)

Put the age of driving up to at least 18 and alchohol to 20 or 21 and actually teach people how to drive properly would be a start :)

Printing a license on the back of the skippy cornflake packet and giving it to a 15 year old is really no a good idea.

lets pretend you're 15 again, would your opinion be the same?

[Str8 Jacket]

lets pretend you're 15 again, would your opinion be the same?

Yeah thats the thing, everyone remembers what they were like, thats why the age should be raised.
Though I was just having this discussion with a mate earlier today. Maybe if instead of just motorcyclists having higher ACC levies that people under the age of 20 and older than say 80 should also have to pay extra levies, when they pay for their licences to stop them from registering the vehicle to someone older/younger.... I wonder if that dis-incentive will work? Though while alcohol is readily available to these "kids" then that aone wouldnt work.

[Cookie]

There is some very compelling evidence regarding the lowering of the drinking age Vs driving accident statistics.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10361708

Females have a very high increase!

Scary stuff. But will the government raise the age back up to 20 and risk losing out on all the extra $$$ generated?

Females *on average* are more affected by alcohol than males (drinking the same quantity) - maybe that explains some of it. Same as their logic is BS. They can't help it. It's just they way they are. :-P

Good question about whether the gumbiment will have the guts to face up to the loss of revenue - particulary when they need all the money they can find to finance Tarquin and Beatrice through their Fine Arts degrees (not to mention the pressure from the alcohol industry and it's money).

By the time the private members bill comes up, I think there is a good chance MPs will be keen to be associated with something "sensible". God knows this could be their one and only chance this term.

[myvice]

Maybe if instead of just motorcyclists having higher ACC levies that people under the age of 20 and older than say 80 should also have to pay extra levies, when they pay for their licences to stop them from registering the vehicle to someone older/younger.... I wonder if that dis-incentive will work? .
What a bloody good idea, why the hell arnt they doing that?

[Clockwork]

The stats I saw presented on the news shows no conclusive link between the lowering of the drinking age and the road accident statistics. We just have some Pollie with an issue to push saying it's so and the media are just repeating it without any critical analysis.

Was any evidence offered that the increase in accidents was directly attributable to drink, because I didn't see any. It may simply be more drivers in high performace cars...... "boy racer culture", maybe increased cell phone use. Notice also that the rates of accidents increased in the 15-17 age group too.

[Lou Girardin]

Once again, it's not New Zealand research. Anecdotal evidence does seem to show a link here. And I do think 18 is too young to buy alcohol, but when are we going to stand on our own two feet and identify our own problems?

[In The Breeze]

Maybe if instead of just motorcyclists having higher ACC levies that people under the age of 20 and older than say 80 should also have to pay extra levies, when they pay for their licences to stop them from registering the vehicle to someone older/younger.... I wonder if that dis-incentive will work? Though while alcohol is readily available to these "kids" then that alone wouldnt work.
Excellent idea, that could work! Yeah I do remember thinking I could handle anything at that age,fark knows I was wrong. Raise the age of drinking and implement your ideas:not:

[Clockwork]

Once again, it's not New Zealand research. Anecdotal evidence does seem to show a link here. And I do think 18 is too young to buy alcohol, but when are we going to stand on our own two feet and identify our own problems?

Can't agree with you here, Lou. How do you tell an 18 year old that for all practical purposes you're an adult...... "you can vote, get conscripted, be treated as an adult by the legal system but you can't buy alcohol!!"

[Deviant Esq]

:eek: just more of the same bullshit:violin: yar get what you vote for :buggerd:

You don't always get what you vote for. I should point out that 38% of us voted for the National party and didn't get a bean. I didn't vote for any of this shiznizzle, it was presented to the select committee and passed a government vote, so it got made legislation. Anyone recall voting on the matter? Hmm?

I saw a very similar article in the Christchurch Press either yesterday or a couple of days ago, no doubt based on the same report.


Once again, it's not New Zealand research.

Actually, the article I read presenting the same argument said it was done by an American firm. Now, we all argue whether or not the yanks present anything of value most of the time (H.D? :whistle:), but really, if you read the report properly and have a logical think about it, the conclusion is actually pretty accurate. So before you bash the report saying "Bah! Drinking age has nothing to do with it..", look at the evidence with an open mind, then form an opinion. I see the retard youths stumbling around drunk, acting like total morons, tagging, vandalising and generally making themselves a pain in the rear... and you disagree with raising the drinking age?

Have a think about it.

[Swoop]

(not to mention the pressure from the alcohol industry and it's money).

That was an interesting point. On the TV3 news there was a comment from the "hospitality association" commenting on the vehicles... like THEY are the cause of the problem...
NOT the nut behind the wheel that has just got tanked up at their establishment, or bought product at their wholesalers (sp?) outlet...

[Grahameeboy]

Raise the driving age to 17.....most kids start drinking around 15 (I did) so it seems stupid to allow them to drive from this age when they want to experience alcohol and driving which is a bad mix.......at 17 they may hopefully have got things out of their system (not all granted) and take less chances when driving.
Yep you could raise the drinking age, however, this does not stop 15 year olds getting hold of alcohol...older brother, mate comes in handy here eh
The probem is drink and driving between 15 - 17 so the answer surely is to take away the 'driving' bit......

[Ixion]

I wonder how valid the numbers are though. They use the phrase "linked to" which is pretty vague.

So often crashes don't have a single causative component.

Car A (driver completely sober) goes through a badly placed give way sign and is hit by car B which skids and fails to stop in time . A has just finished a 12 hour shift, is tired, and stressed. The light is bad and it's raining. Car B is a young driver who has had a drink (but not over the limit). He is inexperienced, and travelling over the speed limit, and much too fast for the conditions. Two of his tyres are bald .

Now. What caused that crash?

Carelessness ?
Driver fatigue?
Bad conditions ?
Bad road design ?
Inexperience ?
Alcohol ?
Speeding ?
Defective vehicle ?

All the above ?

And would the result have been the same if B had been a teetotaller ? Years ago, I doubt the "well under limit" alcohol would have figured as a cause in the accident report. It would have been driver carelessness (A) and speed and defective vehicle (B) . Now, with all the emphasis on alcohol, I'm sure that crash would go into the "alcohol linked" statistics.

One can make anything one wishes to out of statistics.

[Deviant Esq]

The problem is very much the "filter down" effect of the drinking age being at 18. There are plenty that are going to buy alcohol for others, so 15 - 17 have pretty easy access to the stuff.. and as the report said, the amount of 10 - 14 year olds admitted with alcohol poisoning has trebled since 1999. Can't imagine that's just bad parenting eh?

I say, a little of column a, a little of column b. I'm not so sure about the driving thing, I'll take that on a case - by - case. I started driving when I was 15 but I was never a loon about it or drove a fast car - I had a 1982 Civic station wagon. Good first car, cheap, gutless, practical, easy to drive. I wasn't an accident waiting to happen... but no doubt there are others that are / were, especially armed with alcohol and feeling bulletproof.

[ManDownUnder]

WOW - who ever thought that lowering the drinking age would result in younger people getting drunk and driving.

It's like a bolt from the blue...

Raise the age of responsibility (voting, being an adult, going to war, drinking... etc) to a point where the frontal lobes and hormone levels have settled down... somewhere around 35...

[Grahameeboy]

The problem is very much the "filter down" effect of the drinking age being at 18. There are plenty that are going to buy alcohol for others, so 15 - 17 have pretty easy access to the stuff.. and as the report said, the amount of 10 - 14 year olds admitted with alcohol poisoning has trebled since 1999. Can't imagine that's just bad parenting eh?

I say, a little of column a, a little of column b. I'm not so sure about the driving thing, I'll take that on a case - by - case. I started driving when I was 15 but I was never a loon about it or drove a fast car - I had a 1982 Civic station wagon. Good first car, cheap, gutless, practical, easy to drive. I wasn't an accident waiting to happen... but no doubt there are others that are / were, especially armed with alcohol and feeling bulletproof.

It is so easy to buy a fast import these days which may not help....what are the chances of restricting car drivers to a engine cc limit I wonder.....I mean the Govt keep telling us "The Faster you go the bigger the mess" yet they still allow a 16 year old to drive a Skyline etc and they restrict newbie bikers......we are a minority in this country and how often do you hear about young bikers hooning it, drinking and crashing etc....our survey said??

[Lou Girardin]

Can't agree with you here, Lou. How do you tell an 18 year old that for all practical purposes you're an adult...... "you can vote, get conscripted, be treated as an adult by the legal system but you can't buy alcohol!!"

I'll retract my post. I read the article again and it was NZ research.
As for the drinking age - tough shit, we did it once. They've proved they can't handle drink so they can do without.
Buy it illegally like we did.

[madboy]

The problem with problems (and statistics) is that you can find a cause or solution to everything, but that won't work in all or even most circumstances. A bit like Ixion's example, there's always multiple reasons why crashes happen.

The boyracers in some ways get a bum rap for their "souped up" cars having prangs. In most cases the really souped up ones aren't the ones crashing. The amount of news footage I see of some old piece of crap with a shiney exhaust tip being pulled out of a ditch/tree/truck/lamppost... it may have been full of pissed underage boys/girls doing stupid shit with or around the boyracer community, but it's not a souped up car.

With that said, I'm pretty confident if I'd been driving a 400hp WRX at 16 and not a 80hp Honda Civic I think I'd be dead. But then statistically I've been dead for the last 12 years anyway.

Ultimately, stupid kids playing with dangerous things will result in bad things happening. How do you legislate against stupidity?

Personally, I'm not worried about the driving age. Nor the drinking age. What I am worried about is the lack of qualification needed to engage in either. Both are lethal things if not used correctly. Kids do dumb shit, they need to be taught better. Education not enforcement.

[Deviant Esq]

Ultimately, stupid kids playing with dangerous things will result in bad things happening. How do you legislate against stupidity?

Personally, I'm not worried about the driving age. Nor the drinking age. What I am worried about is the lack of qualification needed to engage in either. Both are lethal things if not used correctly. Kids do dumb shit, they need to be taught better. Education not enforcement.

Amen to that. Except the "not enforcement" part. A lot of how they learn comes from being severely told off for being a complete fucktard. They could use some more discipline, and know that if they do something against the law, they're gonna be feeling it in the arse from some big guy called Raymond down at the local (behind) bars.

[Lou Girardin]

Does no-one think that playing your Playstation driving games doesn't affect attitudes to the real thing?
If the Yank military can use them for training they obviously have an influence.
We've even heard it on this forum, people referring to driving the Nurburgring on PS as if it were the real thing. The last thing you want is some pissed 18 year old thinking he can crash and have 3 lives left.

[TwoSeven]

lets pretend you're 15 again, would your opinion be the same?

yip. Never had a need to drive when I was a kid. Bus/walking/bike was pretty good. Only got me license because everyone else did.

[madboy]

Amen to that. Except the "not enforcement" part. A lot of how they learn comes from being severely told off for being a complete fucktard. They could use some more discipline, and know that if they do something against the law, they're gonna be feeling it in the arse from some big guy called Raymond down at the local (behind) bars.Some more discipline, yeah. But from their parents and role models. Not from the cops. There ain't too many kids these days that respect or fear cops. Small towns maybe, but not in the big cities. Constable A can bleat his heart out to 14yo Tipene from Otara, but he's gonna get a "f** you" not a "thank you" in return. Constable B in Motueka might kick 14yo David up the arse, chuck him in the back of the patrol car and take him back home to his Dad, who plays rugby with Constable B... meantime David's packing himself cos he knows Dad ain't gonna be too happy about it... whole different ballgame.

[Jeremy]

In other news the decreasing number of pirates has increased the global world temperature.

You can of course just solve the problem in one go. And impose that you cannot drive after a quarter of a standard drink. Problem dissapears very quickly for everyone. And you'd expect a decrease in the number of crashes amongst ALL ages groups.

Anyway it's a useless report anyway. As there wasn't any mention of the level of skill of the drivers [hard to calculate, but at least you could do something that compares the average number of km they drive a week to the accident rate]. And those percentages are missing important information such as the REAL figures as well. 50% is really a worthless figure if we're only talking about an increase from 1000 to 1010 and it's in comparision to the increase for all age brackets.

[oldrider]

I must admit I was surprised at the response to earlier poles on this forum on the drinking age.
I quite expected to see majority support for the lower age limit.
I think it was overwhelmingly in support of raising it again.
Personally I am in support of the lower age limit and I think only a small percentage of young people spoil things for the rest.
Supporting evidence and media drivel repeated and repeated until a lie becomes a fact form most of the arguments against the lower age. IMHO.
Young people of today are our tomorrow and too much focus is placed on the minority of fuckwits that are in the slow learner bracket just because it sells news papers or makes TV news items.
I think that dangerous journalism is more destructive than dangerous anything else you like to mention. If I had my way a journalist caught and convicted of malicious untruthfulness would be made to eat their own word processor whole.
There are too many fucking rules about everything in this country. Young people are OK by me, sure they are going to make a few mistakes but they will learn from them sooner or later.
I was a complete idiot as a young person I think the majority of kids of today are bloody fantastic so why focus on the fuckwits all the time.
We should be encouraging the good ones. Cheers John.

[Skyryder]

The lowering of the drinking age was not adopted as poicy by any party. It was a conscience vote. The same is true of raising the drinking age. MPs' can vote one way or the other.

The promoters of lowering the drinking age was the beer brewies led by Douglas Myers of Lion Nathan. They were concerned with falling market share (total industry beer sales) against the wine industry. The Buisness Roundtable went into top gear to ensure that as many MPs' as possible supported the lowering of the drinking age. Jenny Shiply was leader of the National Party and led drive for the drinking age to be lowered. The excuse was that education was the answer to drink problems.

If I had my way the age would be up'ed to 25, zero tolerance for driving and some jail time for drunk drivers.

And as for adults who supply minors.............wont tell what I'd do to those fuckers.


Skyryder

[gamgee]

it was also proven that as ice cream sales increased, the rate of homocides also increased
this was because increasing temperatures increased peoples desire for ice cream
the temperature also increased peoples stress levels, causing an increase in the rate of homicides
no link but the figures conveniently showed a trend

[Cookie]

WOW - who ever thought that lowering the drinking age would result in younger people getting drunk and driving.

It's like a bolt from the blue...

[snip]

It was a shock when I finally understood it too. :sherlock:

:yes:

[festus]

15-25 age group for male drivers has always been a high risk high accident age group. Accident causes in this group have always been the same even before the lowering of the age limit for drinking, it's piss and/or speed. It has always been a factor in this age group and always will be.......

Only difference from years gone by are the faster cars and faster women....:2thumbsup

[kro]

Statistics are like bikinis, what they reveal is suggestive, what they hide is vital.

People can come up with statistics to prove anything, 75% of all people know that !!!!

[scumdog]

it was also proven that as ice cream sales increased, the rate of homocides also increased
this was because increasing temperatures increased peoples desire for ice cream
the temperature also increased peoples stress levels, causing an increase in the rate of homicides
no link but the figures conveniently showed a trend

Get some grammar and punctuation - and stop eating ice-cream.

[scumdog]

In the USA the drinking age was dropped to 18, it caused so many problems that a lot of the states lifted it back to 21 (or 20 - o.k. I'm not sure) and some states dug their toes in and said "nup, leavin it at 18". (possibly influenced by booze barons?)
The US Government said "o.k. - but your getting no central government funding for the roads until you DO raise the age"

Guess what? They ALL raised the drinking age! :yes:

[oldrider]

The problem with laws that can not be policed is that sooner or later they become ineffective as a deterrent. Current situation, :spudwhat: No consequence. Who cares!
How many people are there who just don't care and have thousands of dollars of fines just wiped because they have no hope of ever paying them.
Drinking its self is a personal problem. There are enough laws dealing with behaviour, the drink is just a side issue.
How many recidivist drink drivers are out there now despite up to 10 convictions? making new laws is not the answer if they can not be policed.
Something needs to be done about the consequences for breaking current law.
I am of the opinion that the judicial system and the judges and lawyers are the biggest threat to law and order in this country today.
Cheers John.

[scumdog]

Judges are TOO soft, top fine first time up is $4,500 and 3 months prison, who can remember anybody going up for a first drink-driving offence that got more than a few hundred dollars fine and the mandatory 6 months disqualification (and then I bet there wouldn't be THAT much disqualification if it wasn't MANDATORY)
When was the last time a Judge ever got burgled or rammed by a drunk driver etc?????
Cops do their best and often think "why the eff do I bother?"

[Skyryder]

Just out of curiosity can any tell me if you are caught driving over the legal alcohol limit does section 3(a) of the Land Transport Act 1988 apply. Is this offence an instant loss of licence like speeding 51+?



Skyryder

[scumdog]

Just out of curiosity can any tell me if you are caught driving over the legal alcohol limit does section 3(a) of the Land Transport Act 1988 apply. Is this offence an instant loss of licence like speeding 51+?

Skyryder
I dunno 3 (a), but over 800 is instant 28 days loss of licence - and over 160 on blood count.

[Lou Girardin]

The other issue is the Anglo-Saxon compulsion to drink till you're legless, then go looking for trouble. It's very uncommon in Europe for example.
Fix this and you'll fix a lot of our booze problems.

[mops]

[double post]

[Hitcher]

New Zealanders can't handle our piss. There's no surprise in that, based on generations of statistics and good old anecdotal evidence. Pushing the legal drinking age back out to 20 solves nothing until we all learn to co-exist more peacefully with each other and with alcohol.

[mops]

having don advanced statistics at the uni, we had a whole lecture on 'manipulating' data in terms of statistics and graphs and from there on I never trust public media stats or graphs, as they can be presented in any light you want - yes, to a degree, but still....

problem in NZ is that people have to have to drive a car, as the public transport is F*** useless. Where I come from notmally you get a car if you have a family, otherwise excelent public transport can get you anywhere, anytime and quick for ridicolously small cost.... and you can be drunk, etc... try to do that in NZ, particulary Auckland.

incerasing drinking age wont fix the problem
education - surly a good thought, but who will do that, to whom, how to enforce that (with a test ?) and most importantly who will pay for it ?

you ppl do dum things... sometimes more, sometimes less, no cure for that.

ig you are concerned with drink driving, make penalties hards and reduce limit to 0... thats right... no F**** excuses... if you plan to drink you have to plan it so you dont need to use a car. I'm talking about jail time and loss of license and fines. no 'special conditions licenses' for ppl who drive vehicles for living. too harsh ? well you want to reduce drink driving or what ?

on the bottom of that nzherald articles it also states that more youn ppl have cars and they drive more, so it is possible that this age group drives, drove say 40% (pulled that value out of a finger) more kilometers than they did in 1999, while number of accidents incerased by 20%... now those staistics have completly opposite meaning....

go figure....

[edited to correct spelling mistakes]

[Hitcher]

[edited to correct spelling mistakes]
Is that right?

[mops]

Is that right?

ok.... update...

edited to correct most obvioius spelling mistakes that I have noticed ;)

[Swoop]

[edited to correct spelling mistakes]

"Ah, the wonders of a university education..." (said in best Blackadder voice...)

[mops]

it's not university fault - it's fat fingers....

[Lou Girardin]

New Zealanders can't handle our piss. There's no surprise in that, based on generations of statistics and good old anecdotal evidence. Pushing the legal drinking age back out to 20 solves nothing until we all learn to co-exist more peacefully with each other and with alcohol.

Yeah, I can't work it out.
When I was younger and half cut all I wanted to do was shag.
Now I just want to sleep.

[mops]

Yeah, I can't work it out.
When I was younger and half cut all I wanetd to do was shag.
Now I just want to sleep.

funny....
as far as I can remember, the only thing I ever wanted to do is to make the turbo spool by planting my foot on the floor, alternatively giving it a 'quick stab'....