NZ Road Toll Now Higher Than Last Year

[inlinefour]

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-5199379,00.html

Last year's holiday road toll was 11. This year's toll period does not end until 6 am on January 4. The worst day so far has been December 27 with 4 people killed in accidents on New Zealand's roads.
Maybe the Government and the NZ Police will get the message that their policies are not helping improve things. But I guess they will find someone else to blame for it eh?:Playnice:

[What?]

Maybe the Government and the NZ Police will get the message that their policies are not helping improve things.
Unlikely.
More likely they will decide their strategies will work if applied more forcefully.
You must remember that none of the powers that be actually have any functional brain cells. This is how they come up with the idea that speed kills, and does so at a prescribed figure, yet driving on the wrong side of the road is relatively safe.

[miSTa]

When the Government (and the NZ Police) actually learn to accept responsibility for their policies and put policies into place for the public good rather vote buying then the situation will improve. Yes people are responsible for their own actions but it starts by leadership.

I also wish they would stop calling all vehicle crashes "accidents" - they aren't. There's a fault and a cause that is my book is not an accident.

[SPman]

They will continue to come down with more and more "vigorous " laws with harsher penalties, - until you are fined $300 for just attempting to get in or on a motor vehicle!
Already, there is talk of instant licence loss for red light runners and passing on or near double yellow lines - and be sure there will be no distinction between cars or bikes.........
And others saying penalties will have to be harsher for all manner of offences, "because the average motorist is sick of it"!
How about the "average motorist" having a bit more responsibility for their actions!
You dont train a dog well, by beating it with a stick. This is the philosophy the government is applying to the "average motorist", however! In the long run - totally counter productive!
But then - what would I know!

[Dafe]

It is to be expected. The quality of the New Zealand lifestyle is slowly diminishing. New Zealanders in general are now working long hours and spending less quality time with family. The alligning of the New Zealand economy with the growing Asian influence is contibuting to this situation. Asian countries consist of a workforce that endures excessive hours with small pay.
In the middle to low income classes, we are now seeing New Zealanders working harder & longer to maintain previous lifestyles.

Many New Zealanders just don't know how to unwind any longer and for some, the personal pace of life is revving high. This reflects on peoples road manners and patience and courtesy on the roads is almost nil existant in some cases.
There were pros and cons for NZ alligning with Asian countries as opposed to the European trade countries. This is one of the cons. New Zelanders are becoming more competitive with each other, including - On the roads.

The government knows this is to be expected. Sad thing is - This provides the government with more excuses to pull more officers from the beat and put them on the roads, It's a vicious cycle that will only worsen! I can't see long term trends showing an improvement in road tolls.

[Clockwork]

If you always do what you've always done don't be disapointed if you always get what you've always got. :pinch:

[Lou Girardin]

The definition of incompetence is doing the same thing you've always done but expecting a different result.
NZ's entire Governmental ethos is one of enforcing their edicts through punitive measures.
This is compounded by a desire to choose the cheapest option in any circumstance.
Still, the tougher they get, the more people will run.

[F5 Dave]

Two Aussies sittin’ on a truck selling Watermelons. They Buy them for $1 each & sell them for $1.

After a while one sez to the other.


“Hey, we’re not making much money”

“Yeah, -Have to get a bigger truck”

[Monsterbishi]

I knew this year was going to be a bad one for the road toll, in the days leading up to Christmas, riding out there with the hoards of cars, speeds were well up, ie, in a 60km zone there were huge packs of cars doing almost 80, yet when they hit the hundred zone the speed was only around 70, with no heavy vehicles in sight to slow things down, tailgating for africa, people running redlights well after they've changed, etc.

Ultimately, it's not the fault of the police, or the government, it's the fault of the people who place safety below punctuality when doing anything, who think that it's ok to ignore the legal limits and go a bit faster to get to the mall sooner so little jimmy gets his Roboraptor, PS2, etc.

Edit: but as has already been said, get some draconian laws in place, that sort out a few of 'em at least.

[onearmedbandit]

I'd love to see redlight runners lose their licences on the spot. Hmmmmm, nah make the hung, drawn, and quartered on the spot. I hate anyone who thinks it is okay to race through a redlight. Absolute fuckers. If one hit me and I was still able to get up the po-po would have to arrest me for beating the driver to within an inch of their life.

[oldrider]

The worst behaviour I have observed on the roads again these holidays is:

A). Failing to keep left.

B). Slow drivers failing to keep left and let faster traffic through.

There are of course a whole lot of other bad behaviours but those two are definitely the most prevalent.

The accent on speed is true in some instances but most of the time it is just bullshit.

Happy New Year all. Cheers John.

[TLDV8]

The accent on speed is true in some instances but most of the time it is just bullshit.

What would happen to the road toll if the speed limit was 10 kmh :sherlock:..you are only as safe as the person coming straight at you.
>
Why do they call a head on collision an accident ?.. Why do people say ..I didn't see them,when first you would have to be looking?... Tell the average driver their skills are average or worse and see the reaction...What normally happens if you were cut off and shook your head,the other person would probably give you the finger ???... Unfortunately things will become tougher as the attitudes and driving skills get worse,the majority will be governed by rules for the minority...Doh..we already are?
>
Never forget what the Two Ronnies said.... Death can be Fatal.

[James Deuce]

The worst behaviour I have observed on the roads again these holidays is:

A). Failing to keep left.

B). Slow drivers failing to keep left and let faster traffic through.

There are of course a whole lot of other bad behaviours but those two are definitely the most prevalent.

The accent on speed is true in some instances but most of the time it is just bullshit.

Happy New Year all. Cheers John.

That can't be right. According to the poll on www.stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz) yesterday, most NZers think it's "speeding" that's the most dangerous thing on NZ roads at holiday time.

I agree with you 100% there oldrider.

[Grahameeboy]

What is pretty obvious is that if the speed limits were increased, the incident (thought I had better not call it 'accident') rate would not increase in the same way that it would not decrease if the speed limit was say reduced to 10kph which confirms that the Govt's blitz on speed is revenue based.....would be interesting to know which of those drivers involved had previous speeding convictions and which didn't.
In Northampton, UK they do not have speed cameras and have seen road toll reduce compared with those County's that do have cameras.
The Govt will tell you that 30% of all Rta's involve speed but as proven by Bike mags in UK if you take off "hit rear cause I was driving too fast" "didn't see speeding motorist", you end up with just 3% of 'incidents' involving actual excessive speed.
Same as 30% of all 'incidents' involve alcohol....on the face of it sounds pretty bad until you realise that 70% of 'incidents' involve sober drivers!!!!
Stats and more stats.......

[Grahameeboy]

That can't be right. According to the poll on www.stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz) yesterday, most NZers think it's "speeding" that's the most dangerous thing on NZ roads at holiday time.

I agree with you 100% there oldrider.

Nah Jimbo, the most dangerous thing on the road at holiday times are 'cages'......

[terbang]

Watching Prime a couple of days back and they displayed a map showing the number of road kills for every state over the holiday period and the Northern Territory was the only one with a toll of 0 (Zero people dead) which cant be correct because the Northern Territory also has no open road speed limit..!:sick:

[Grahameeboy]

Watching Prime a couple of days back and they displayed a map showing the number of road kills for every state over the holiday period and the Northern Territory was the only one with a toll of 0 (Zero people dead) which cant be correct because the Northern Territory also has no open road speed limit..!:sick:

Yep sir ree.....more evidence to contradict Govt's attitude.

[SPman]

I quite like this comment

"Land Transit (sic) New Zealand is the greatest collection of misfits and dimwits ever assembled by the human race. Collectively, they elevate Australian rugby league fans to the position of brain scientists and they make South Auckland gang members look like members of a poetry appreciation society".

Alan Dick -Editor - Driver magazine.
A lot of people slag him off, but he has the courage to say in public and in print, what most people only say in private!

[Lou Girardin]

Edit: but as has already been said, get some draconian laws in place, that sort out a few of 'em at least.

Hasn't worked for the last 6 years.

[boomer]

Riding south to auckland last nite i had a car occupied by a family running about 3 metres off my arse. I gave him the bird and after a couple more minutes showed him the brakes.. He carried on tailgating. I pulled over onto the opposite side of the road and braked hard to let him past;

2 minutes up the road theres the plod, so i stopped and gave the rozzer the fukwits plate and a description of his driving ability;


ST8651 - Merry christmas fucker

[Yokai]

It is to be expected. The quality of the New Zealand lifestyle is slowly diminishing. New Zealanders in general are now working long hours and spending less quality time with family. The alligning of the New Zealand economy with the growing Asian influence is contibuting to this situation. Asian countries consist of a workforce that endures excessive hours with small pay.
In the middle to low income classes, we are now seeing New Zealanders working harder & longer to maintain previous lifestyles.


[rant mode on]
Oh get OVER IT! We have it soooo much better here. And as for "long hours" don't make me laugh. From personal experience I have worked far fewer hours here and much less stressed than in any other country I have lived in (OK so only France, UK and US...). I'm middle income. I work 40hours a week. I'd like to be doing a job that demanded that, but it doesn't - I can probably get my work done in about 30 hours, but I have to be here... A far far cry from the 80 hours I was regularly doing in Silicon Valley. And I haven't actually HAD to work a weekend ever since I've been here. I've been able to schedule and manage stuff properly.

Frankly this concept of us working LONGER might be true, but hell - it's SOOOOO much better than anywhere else that I've worked....

[rant mode off]

[Grahameeboy]

Riding south to auckland last nite i had a car occupied by a family running about 3 metres off my arse. I gave him the bird and after a couple more minutes showed him the brakes.. He carried on tailgating. I pulled over onto the opposite side of the road and braked hard to let him past;

2 minutes up the road theres the plod, so i stopped and gave the rozzer the fukwits plate and a description of his driving ability;


ST8651 - Merry christmas fucker

Excellent stuff fellow POM.....crazy car drivers....I often get car drivers trying to undertake me even when I am following traffic ahead.....you wonder what they have for brains eh......

[madboy]

As pointed out more thoroughly above, "LTNZ" is a synonym for incompetence. I wonder what the stats would look like if they were adjusted for the safety improvements made in the NZ vehicle fleet. In the 1980's, I was being driving around by my parents in their 1984 Mazda 323 on retreads. At 100km/h (even up to 150k - top speed). It's safety features were brakes (cough cough) and prayer. I'm currently driving my daughter around in a 98 Primera, with ABS, twin airbags, side intrusion beams, crumple zones, 4wheel disc brakes and directional tyres. Does anybody notice a reason why there is less chance that I'll crash now, and more chance of survival if I do? No, LTNZ couldn't figure it out either.

Since I run red lights, cross double yellows, pass when there is less than 100m clear visibility, tailgate, exceed the posted speed limits and even ride after I've had a beer... I must be the exception to the statistical model then.

Could it be that I run red lights infrequently only when there's bugger all traffic and I stop and look carefully first... could it be that I pass on yellows cos I'm on a bike that's under 1m wide, has explosive acceleration/deceleration and can get it over and done with before an auto box can kickdown... could it be I exceed the limits, but pay attention to where I'm going, what I'm riding on, what's in front, behind and around me... and could it be that I don't go for all out balls to the wall blasts after that solitary beer has taken the edge off reaction times? What a loser I am. I need to close my eyes, switch off my brain and conform to the rest of society's driving standards.

[Grahameeboy]

As pointed out more thoroughly above, "LTNZ" is a synonym for incompetence. I wonder what the stats would look like if they were adjusted for the safety improvements made in the NZ vehicle fleet. In the 1980's, I was being driving around by my parents in their 1984 Mazda 323 on retreads. At 100km/h (even up to 150k - top speed). It's safety features were brakes (cough cough) and prayer. I'm currently driving my daughter around in a 98 Primera, with ABS, twin airbags, side intrusion beams, crumple zones, 4wheel disc brakes and directional tyres. Does anybody notice a reason why there is less chance that I'll crash now, and more chance of survival if I do? No, LTNZ couldn't figure it out either.

Since I run red lights, cross double yellows, pass when there is less than 100m clear visibility, tailgate, exceed the posted speed limits and even ride after I've had a beer... I must be the exception to the statistical model then.

Could it be that I run red lights infrequently only when there's bugger all traffic and I stop and look carefully first... could it be that I pass on yellows cos I'm on a bike that's under 1m wide, has explosive acceleration/deceleration and can get it over and done with before an auto box can kickdown... could it be I exceed the limits, but pay attention to where I'm going, what I'm riding on, what's in front, behind and around me... and could it be that I don't go for all out balls to the wall blasts after that solitary beer has taken the edge off reaction times? What a loser I am. I need to close my eyes, switch off my brain and conform to the rest of society's driving standards.

Noooo.....

[inlinefour]

[rant mode on]
Oh get OVER IT! We have it soooo much better here. And as for "long hours" don't make me laugh. From personal experience I have worked far fewer hours here and much less stressed than in any other country I have lived in (OK so only France, UK and US...). I'm middle income. I work 40hours a week. I'd like to be doing a job that demanded that, but it doesn't - I can probably get my work done in about 30 hours, but I have to be here... A far far cry from the 80 hours I was regularly doing in Silicon Valley. And I haven't actually HAD to work a weekend ever since I've been here. I've been able to schedule and manage stuff properly.

Frankly this concept of us working LONGER might be true, but hell - it's SOOOOO much better than anywhere else that I've worked....

[rant mode off]

Besides, your only as busy as you choose to be eh.:whistle:

[Lou Girardin]

Madboy has it right about double yellows. I got caught out on the Rocket going up my favourite road. I was behind a couple of Porches through some S bends, I knew there was a straight after the last bend, so when it opened up I checked ahead and nailed it - then I saw the new yellows. But I was past two cars and back in and still had 200 metres clear vis. The passing lanes must be designed with the accelerative power of a Trabant in mind.

[mangell6]

There have been lots of double yellow lines appearing where there wa spreviosly only one.
If the LTSA and Govt were serious about 'speed' causing accidents they would lower the open road speed limit to 80k like it used to be when I was really really young, but then this is all about money so keep the funds flowing.

[inlinefour]

There have been lots of double yellow lines appearing where there wa spreviosly only one.
If the LTSA and Govt were serious about 'speed' causing accidents they would lower the open road speed limit to 80k like it used to be when I was really really young, but then this is all about money so keep the funds flowing.

Modern vehicles are much improved on their older counterparts of the 80kph era. Also most of the main roads have been upgraded (killed some of my fav courners) and they are now easier to transverse. I don't think lowering the limit would not change iotia. Not driving/riding while fatigued on the other hand could. Apparently its one of the biggest contributing factors to crashes in NZ.:thud:

[James Deuce]

biggest contributing factors to crashes in NZ.:thud:

No it's not. It's speeding. The poll on www.stuff.co.nz said it was.

[madboy]

inlinefour - I think Mangell and Jim were taking the piss... or were you taking the piss of them taking the piss?

[SPman]

From Stuff - havent found the "poll", yet
". Mrs Oliver lost control of her bike as she rode down Rolleston St toward Wallace St, the court found. It established that the brake noodle was not installed into either brake calliper, leaving her with no means of slowing or stopping her bike."
What the fuck, is a brake noodle!!!

[scumdog]

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-5199379,00.html

Last year's holiday road toll was 11. This year's toll period does not end until 6 am on January 4. The worst day so far has been December 27 with 4 people killed in accidents on New Zealand's roads.
Maybe the Government and the NZ Police will get the message that their policies are not helping improve things. But I guess they will find someone else to blame for it eh?:Playnice:

Will somebody PLEASE think of the children??

And also find out how many more drivers and cars we have on the road compared with the same time last year?

I blame the hospitals, Government and social services that save 'tards that in any other animal group would have been eliminated.
Because of that we all ahave to share the roads with these saved 'tards.

'Course maybe these 'tards might eliminate themselves on the roads anyway - but unfortunately take a few innocents with them.:weep:

[mangell6]

inlinefour - I think Mangell and Jim were taking the piss... or were you taking the piss of them taking the piss?

Neither of us would do that. :msn-wink:

However according to the powers that be SPEEDING is the number one cause of ALL accidents. Notorious stretches of road and other roads that are not so notorious have had there speed limits reduced from the open road speed of 100k.

When will the penny drop and a more rigid driver education, skills testing AND limiting license holders to 20km from their place of residence until they have learnt about strange things like fatigue and driving at a constant speed above 70km!

I have hopped off the hobby horse now.


I hope that he wasn't takingthe piss

[scumdog]

Could it be that I run red lights infrequently only when there's bugger all traffic and I stop and look carefully first... could it be that I pass on yellows cos I'm on a bike that's under 1m wide, has explosive acceleration/deceleration and can get it over and done with before an auto box can kickdown... could it be I exceed the limits, but pay attention to where I'm going, what I'm riding on, what's in front, behind and around me... and could it be that I don't go for all out balls to the wall blasts after that solitary beer has taken the edge off reaction times? What a loser I am. I need to close my eyes, switch off my brain and conform to the rest of society's driving standards.

But you set a bad example, next thing some dork in a Prado towing a boat will se you doing these things and think (well probably incapable of thinking) "Hmmm, that looks like a good idea, I'll give it a go" :blah:

[madboy]

But you set a bad example, next thing some dork in a Prado towing a boat will se you doing these things and think (well probably incapable of thinking) "Hmmm, that looks like a good idea, I'll give it a go" :blah:I was about to reply by suggesting that said dork would probably look in his mirror and try to block/run me off the road, but then that would be suggesting that a Prado driver would use their mirrors... no no no...

I guess if you're dumb enough to buy a gas-guzzling overweight ill-handling oversized sack of shit then you're probably dumb enough to think you'll fit into the same gap as a lightweight sportsbike.

I was also going to get on my hobby horse about education... but that doesn't have the same immediate return on investment as enforcement.

[SPman]

But you set a bad example, next thing some dork in a Prado towing a boat will se you doing these things and think (well probably incapable of thinking) "Hmmm, that looks like a good idea, I'll give it a go" :blah: he'd be in for a bit of a shock, as the B train comes over the hill............:shit:
Passive eugenics - has a lot going for it......

[inlinefour]

inlinefour - I think Mangell and Jim were taking the piss... or were you taking the piss of them taking the piss?

Sorry, I'm a bit slow on the uptake, apparently. I've been on nightshift and my head is a bit fuzzy. Should probably stop sharing the meds at work (pt):gob:

[Zed]

...I'm middle income. I work 40hours a week. ...And I haven't actually HAD to work a weekend ever since I've been here. I've been able to schedule and manage stuff properly.
- it's SOOOOO much better than anywhere else that I've worked...Hey I'm in the same boat as you there Yokai yet I've only ever worked in NZ...innit great! :cool:

As for this road toll thing, what conclusions can really be made? As someone once said "we learn from history that we never learn anything from history!"

[avgas]

Be careful traveller.....the road is deadly today

[madboy]

Should probably stop sharing the meds at work (pt):gob:Lithium is a wonderful thing...

[inlinefour]

Lithium is a wonderful thing...

Dunno about that, I can think of much nicer medication than that stuff:laugh:

[Dafe]

[rant mode on]
Oh get OVER IT! We have it soooo much better here. And as for "long hours" don't make me laugh. From personal experience I have worked far fewer hours here and much less stressed than in any other country I have lived in (OK so only France, UK and US...). I'm middle income. I work 40hours a week. I'd like to be doing a job that demanded that, but it doesn't - I can probably get my work done in about 30 hours, but I have to be here... A far far cry from the 80 hours I was regularly doing in Silicon Valley. And I haven't actually HAD to work a weekend ever since I've been here. I've been able to schedule and manage stuff properly.

Frankly this concept of us working LONGER might be true, but hell - it's SOOOOO much better than anywhere else that I've worked....

[rant mode off]

Just so you know, I've had four green rep posts for my reply and only your negative remark!
Also, Dick wad...... Are you a lower to middle class income earner? Or can't you read? (Because I'm sure most Self-Bragging ex-silicon breast implanted workers aren't!)

[miSTa]

All this safety crap (airbags, intrusion beams, etc) in cars doesn't help - it makes people feel invincable. What's needed is a 300mm spike and 25mm in diameter on the steering wheel. The effect of this would be that no one would be able to stop or be bought to a stop suddenly without impaling themselves. Make the risk of injury or death real as it applies to us.

[Zed]

What's needed is a 300mm spike and 25mm in diameter on the steering wheel. The effect of this would be......would be terrible, cos more careless cage drivers would take up motorcycling arghh! :crazy:

[terbang]

Got tailgated by a dickhead driving a "Pajero Big horn" (inadequacy is all in a name I reckon) the other day while riding to work on me 400 on a wet day. This macho man was right up my ass so I shifted lane to let said dickhead through and bugger me on his spare wheel cover, as he passes by, there is a picky of Ned Kelly all suited up in his armour, threateningly pointing a couple of pistols and yep the words "Back off" written underneath.
Fuck where do they come from? I aint no Sigmund Freud but this guy has to be a psycologists dream come true. I mean where did he get his licence, who trained him, who tested him and more importantly where the bloody hell are those damn Rozzers when you need them most?

[Drunken Monkey]

...Asian countries consist of a workforce that endures excessive hours with small pay....

I'd trade my salary for the Tokyo or Hong Kong equivalent any day, mate. From what you say, the New Zealand work force endures early mornings and we all work on farms?
Try a less rash generalisation next time...

[Zed]

...let said dickhead through and bugger me on his spare wheel cover, as he passes by, there is a picky of Ned Kelly all suited up in his armour, threateningly pointing a couple of pistols and yep the words "Back off" written underneath.
Fuck where do they come from? I aint no Sigmund Freud but this guy has to be a psycologists dream come true.Lol, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if there are several members on this site who own one of those spare wheel covers, they were rather popular at Repco/The Warehouse a year or two back! I'm sure you meant no offense to them though...unless it was them who tailgated you of course?

[Virago]

The overwhelming view in this thread seems to be that it is the cage drivers that are the menace on the road. In my experience bikers are just as idiotic on the road.

Recently when driving (in work cage) from Christchurch to Dunedin, I got a major fright. Driving around a moderate sweeping right-hander, I was confronted with a small group of bikers overtaking other traffic in convoy, and well over the centre line. Only quick evasive action on my part saved the lead rider's life. I only hope the bastard got as much of a fright as I did.

This sort of thing is only too common. C'mon guys, let's be safe out there!

[spudchucka]

Maybe the Government and the NZ Police will get the message that their policies are not helping improve things.
Think for a moment what the carnage would be like if they did nothing.

[Marmoot]

Sorry to troll a bit, but I believe (from previous discussions elsewhere in this forum) that this high road fatalities should be blamed on Asian drivers.

If not for them, the holiday fatalities would be close to 0.

[madboy]

Think for a moment what the carnage would be like if they did nothing.Think for a moment what the carnage would be like if they acted on a well-thought out pro-active strategy to improve road safety.

[SlashWylde]

It is to be expected. The quality of the New Zealand lifestyle is slowly diminishing. New Zealanders in general are now working long hours and spending less quality time with family. The alligning of the New Zealand economy with the growing Asian influence is contibuting to this situation. Asian countries consist of a workforce that endures excessive hours with small pay.
In the middle to low income classes, we are now seeing New Zealanders working harder & longer to maintain previous lifestyles.

Many New Zealanders just don't know how to unwind any longer and for some, the personal pace of life is revving high. This reflects on peoples road manners and patience and courtesy on the roads is almost nil existant in some cases.
There were pros and cons for NZ alligning with Asian countries as opposed to the European trade countries. This is one of the cons. New Zelanders are becoming more competitive with each other, including - On the roads.

The government knows this is to be expected. Sad thing is - This provides the government with more excuses to pull more officers from the beat and put them on the roads, It's a vicious cycle that will only worsen! I can't see long term trends showing an improvement in road tolls.


Well put, I concur...

[Quasievil]

Think for a moment what the carnage would be like if they did nothing.

i would like to see the road toll would be if they did something, it seems the only methods of improvement strategy the police and policey makers are able to see is a Fiscal one, how thick can you possibly be, is it working, has it ever worked ..... NO it hasnt and it never will.
Not until a intelligent well thought out system is introduced will there be any change, Im talking about restrictions on Power outage on new drivers cars, proper training for drivers, effective policing, getting the aged and impaired off the roads, getting truck numbers reduced, investment into our roads (especially the dangerous ones)etc etc better alternative transport ie Trains.
The sad fact of the matter is the police and the policey makers actually dont care about the road toll, not seriously if they did care you would see some real policies (as above) being intitiated on our roads. the HP is essentially pointless as a policing unit the only point relevant to them and thier exsistance is cash generation.

Personally I think those that charge around in Police cars handing out tickets are essentially misguided fools who have enabled themselves as puppets for the politicans greed. the whole damn policing situation on the road is a SHAM pure and simple one goal ,one aim ....... MONEY. I have argued this for years and years and never have I heard a reasonable arguement in defence. While Im at it (why dont I say what I really think)
Being a HP cop to me ranks as the lowest possible job a person can aspire to be involved in, and once gained you should be nothing more than ashamed of yourself.

to Qualify a bit, I have every respect for real policemen and women but the HP can fuck themselves

[Pixie]

Cop on TV the other night:

"The public don't seem to connect traffic enforcement with safety.They just see it as revenue"

God no! How can this be?
Bet he'll find a request for his resignation in his in box.

[TLDV8]

The one thing i love about NZ is the non accountability which is getting worse..it's not my fault..its the government/cops/my mum's fault etc that i drive like a !@#$wit....i need someone to blame...Keyword,i need someone to hold my hand,there was a time when Kiwi's would stand up instead of passing the buck.

[SlashWylde]

i would like to see the road toll would be if they did something...

True but the problem is this requires time effort and money to implement. It is not a relatively easy quick action to take, unlike passing new legislation to lowwer speed limits or take passive action by the use of speed cameras and radars.

The problem is that this govt is focussed on threatening the public with a big stick to try and prevent them from speeding, because the offical line is that speeding is what causes the biggest mess. The reality is that attacking speeding is the easiest way to try and lower the road toll. The reality is, as we all know, that it is poor skills and aggressive driving that is to blame for road crashes.

Problem is to really deal with the root cause would involve too much time effort and money and would put too many voters and workers off the road, so it is inherently against the govts best interests, so nothing is ever going to change.

This is all patently obvious to anyone with half a brain but what can you do?...

No really...what can WE do? I'd really like to know 'cause I am tired of hearing the same old bullshit from the powers that be. It's not JUST speed you fuckwits...work it out.

[inlinefour]

Think for a moment what the carnage would be like if they did nothing.

Are you trying to imply that they are actually doing something worth while at the moment? If so, its really working - Tui ad.
Be nice to see what would happen if the powers that be engaged the brain, utilised common sense and thought logically. Usually when someone trys something and fails a few times, they rethink and come up with a new stratigy to sort it out. But not with this eh, were is it all going to end if they cannot realise that their current way of thinking is inadequate?:corn:

[Kickaha]

Are you trying to imply that they are actually doing something worth while at the moment? If so, its really working - Tui ad.



So you think the road toll would improve if there was no enforcement?
Yeah right - Tui Add

Although the only way to test whether the current enforcement procedures are working would be to do just that and see what the results were

[Indoo]

Im talking about restrictions on Power outage on new drivers cars, proper training for drivers, effective policing, getting the aged and impaired off the roads, getting truck numbers reduced, investment into our roads (especially the dangerous ones)etc etc better alternative transport ie Trains.

What do you mean by effective policing? And I really don't think those things aside from the power outage will have any impact at all. Its not truck drivers overtaking on blind corners causing collisions or Grandma Jones overtaking a line of traffic on double yellow lines or a road that decides to suddenly buck up and throw cars off it that cause people to die. Even driver training will only have a limited impact, people who overtake on double yellows and dangerously into blind corners know that what they are doing is dangerous but do it anyway.

Its just simple stupidity its the same kind of people causing crashes who would manage to shoot themselves if you gave them an unloaded gun and no ammo. You can give them all the training in the world, they will still be just as stupid and still do stupid things on the road. Its not driver training that stops most people from crossing the centre line or overtaking on a blind corner, its simply the existence of a base level of intellect and sense. A base level of intelligence and a survival instinct would tell them that placing there vehicle doing 100k+ into the lane of another vehicle coming the other way doing 100k+ isn't a very good idea.

There are two options really, you can focus on speed and reduce the damage done by crashes which are inevitable when you have a proportion of drivers who are stupid and dangerous. Or you can focus on removing those dangerous drivers from the roads, which would involve having a heap of unmarked cars patrolling the road and catching these idiots when they overtake stupidly etc. Its pointless having marked cars because everyones a model driver when they see a police car parked on the side of the road, that is until they get 5kmh down the road.

You would also then have to have a judiciary which would actually punish careless/reckless/dangerous/drunken drivers and remove them from the roads. At the moment there simply are no penalties and you have people with a multitude of drink driving, careless, dangerous convictions who are allowed time and time again to continue to offend and continue to drive.

But the first option is by far the easiest and cheapest, its basically an acknowledgement that we know people will crash, we can't do anything about it so we will just try to reduce the speed at which they crash. Its logical in its own way and does have an impact on reducing fatalities, its just not going to stop people from crashing in the first place which should be the primary aim.


Being a HP cop to me ranks as the lowest possible job a person can aspire to be involved in, and once gained you should be nothing more than ashamed of yourself.

I don't normally defend the HP but they do a hell of alot more than just catching speeders. They have to deal with the carnage and chaos of fatal crashes on a weekly basis in many areas. They are often working alone and have to deal with angry drunken drivers, gang members etc out any effective back up. They also catch a few criminals who strangely enough also drive vehicles. You might not like the fact the government tells them to focus on speed, but without them would you be volunteering to be first on the scene to fatal crashes?

[Lou Girardin]

And also find out how many more drivers and cars we have on the road compared with the same time last year?



This excuse doesn't fly anymore Scummy, LTNZ and your lapdog bosses set a goal of less than 300 fatals by 2010. They knew the expected growth in the vehicle fleet and still mouthed off. If they didn't think of that, it's one more reason for a purge of the halfwits.

[spudchucka]

Think for a moment what the carnage would be like if they acted on a well-thought out pro-active strategy to improve road safety.
You got an example?

[Lou Girardin]

What do you mean by effective policing?


There are two options really, you can focus on speed and reduce the damage done by crashes which are inevitable when you have a proportion of drivers who are stupid and dangerous. Or you can focus on removing those dangerous drivers from the roads, which would involve having a heap of unmarked cars patrolling the road and catching these idiots when they overtake stupidly etc. Its pointless having marked cars because everyones a model driver when they see a police car parked on the side of the road, that is until they get 5kmh down the road.

You would also then have to have a judiciary which would actually punish careless/reckless/dangerous/drunken drivers and remove them from the roads. At the moment there simply are no penalties and you have people with a multitude of drink driving, careless, dangerous convictions who are allowed time and time again to continue to offend and continue to drive.

But the first option is by far the easiest and cheapest, its basically an acknowledgement that we know people will crash, we can't do anything about it so we will just try to reduce the speed at which they crash. Its logical in its own way and does have an impact on reducing fatalities, its just not going to stop people from crashing in the first place which should be the primary aim.




Effective Policing is focussing on where the accidents occur, NOT at the end of passing lanes because the 'take' is better.
As well as this, you could focus on the drivers causing the problem. Your bosses know the demographic, it was identified 20+ years ago.
The fact is that these policies have failed miserably, with the huge number of tickets written over the last 6 years one would expect that fatals would be well under 300 already. But they're not because you guys ARE TARGETING THE WRONG PEOPLE. The greatest reduction in fatalities happened between 1990 and 2000 and you can trace the causes; median barriers on all motorways and general road improvements, safer cars and better/quicker emergency treatment.
You may recall that this period was when the Police were criticised for a lack of presence on the roads. Maybe they should try getting you back to crime fighting and the toll will drop more.

[Quasievil]

Its not truck drivers overtaking on blind corners causing collisions or Grandma Jones overtaking a line of traffic on double yellow lines or a road that decides to suddenly buck up and throw cars off it that cause people to die.

The fewer trucks on the road the safer it is, trucks are overly represented in fatal road crashes,irrespective of weather its their fault or not.



Its not driver training that stops most people from crossing the centre line or overtaking on a blind corner, its simply the existence of a base level of intellect and sense.

Driver training and education, ie skid control would be more effective than a ticket.


You would also then have to have a judiciary which would actually punish careless/reckless/dangerous/drunken drivers and remove them from the roads. At the moment there simply are no penalties and you have people with a multitude of drink driving, careless, dangerous convictions who are allowed time and time again to continue to offend and continue to drive.

Yes and thats partially my point



would you be volunteering to be first on the scene to fatal crashes


Its rarely a HP or police officer at a crash scene first, normally a member of the public is there when a Hp or policeman gets there. And No I wouldnt volunteer to do any aspect of a HP job.

I have had a lot of experiences working with the police on highway patrol between Huntly and Auckland, I have also had alot of personal experience working general duties stuff in Huntly and Ngruawhahia usually at night. I did this as a volunteer. I have seen alot and I do believe I am entitled to say what Im saying. Once I started to be sent out with the HP guys I stopped volunteering, at that point I disagreed strongly with what they do.

[Keeper]

You all have an opinion, e-mail the transport minister and tell him what it is, IMO I have a choice, I'm leaving this country in the two years I was away alone it deteriorated enough to justify that.

[spudchucka]

Are you trying to imply that they are actually doing something worth while at the moment? If so, its really working - Tui ad.
Be nice to see what would happen if the powers that be engaged the brain, utilised common sense and thought logically. Usually when someone trys something and fails a few times, they rethink and come up with a new stratigy to sort it out. But not with this eh, were is it all going to end if they cannot realise that their current way of thinking is inadequate?:corn:
You know what? There are a lot of fucken self appointed experts on all matters to do with policing on this forum. But the reality is that you lot have all the questions but none of the answers.

You all want policing to be on your terms, when, where and how you want it so long as it affects others but not you. Well wake up dreamers because it isn't ever going to work like that.

You can critiscise all you want but until the motoring public wake up and start behaving like adults you will have to face the fact that there will be rigid policing of motoring behaviour. And the retards that foster a culture of doing runners from police will simply add weight to those arguing to ban high performance vehicles. If you want the most powerfull vehicle on the roads to be a Fisher & Paykel mobility scooter then keep acting like a winja or madboy because thats what will happen long term.

[Lou Girardin]

Nice rant Spud, but your way isn't working and your retard bosses have too much 'face' involved to ever admit they're wrong and try any alternatives.
A few of which have been suggested here many times.

[terbang]

Sorry Spudchucka but those in the LTSA and Police have gone through the indoctrination process that is continuously reinforced from within the system and the blinkers are firmly in place. The ability to objectively view road safety has long since slipped thier train of thought.:slap:
The road toll is UP (That means higher) so obviously the current method of policing is WRONG, they have FAILED and need to change their strategy. A good place to start would be by listening to those that employ them (the road travelling public of NZ) to be able to provide a strategy for a safer road environment as a total package.

[oldrider]

The one thing i love about NZ is the non accountability which is getting worse..it's not my fault..its the government/cops/my mum's fault etc that i drive like a !@#$wit....i need someone to blame...Keyword,i need someone to hold my hand,there was a time when Kiwi's would stand up instead of passing the buck.
Very true. I believe it stems from our socialist upbringing influenced by school teachers, unionists, lawyers, doctors, clergy, all of the outspoken useless talkers of society.
To emphasise the stupidity of these misguided so called academics they enter parliament to save the nation with their theories and policies of achieving mediocrity in the world.
Take a good look at who you have voted in to run this country! Look at the laws and rules they produce.
When police try to enact their (the politicians) stupid rules and laws the lawyers, judges and PC dogooders let the offenders go, often with compensation payments to boot.
Then out in the field all you hear is cries of victimisation.
It's not my fault, officer I was badly potty trained it's always a "them" who is to blame, never a "me".
Get real New Zealand, it is us you and me who are to blame for letting these brainless bastards inflict themselves on us.
Its our country and it's us who are shitting in our own back yard.
A days reading on this forum will tell you all you need to know about whats wrong.
We need fewer rules and laws with tougher consequences for those that break them, we need to be more individually ACCOUNTABLE for our actions.
Speed does not kill on the roads STUPIDITY does. :kick: John.

[scumdog]

This excuse doesn't fly anymore Scummy, LTNZ and your lapdog bosses set a goal of less than 300 fatals by 2010. They knew the expected growth in the vehicle fleet and still mouthed off. If they didn't think of that, it's one more reason for a purge of the halfwits.

Why don't the public fall into line and try and achieve that goal? BY DRIVING PROPERLY so cops can be freed for 'real' Police work?

Yep, it's the revenue gathering 05 bastards that are causing all these road death, can't blame the effwit slack-jawed mouthbreathers that are incapable of driving a drawing pin into a sheet of balsa-wood let alone drive a car.

Short of destroying the offender car at the side of the road when they pass on yellow lines, run red lights etc there is not much that can be done as a deterent, the law makers and judges made sure of that.

Plus look at the dumb arses out there, if they get enough tickets to loose their licence just from speed how much of a deterent are the 'penalties' for other transgressions??????????????????? and how much would they 'learn' from said penalties?:pinch:
Still to pay my share of 'revenue' but hey if I did get caught I'd just get on with life.:calm:

[Pixie]

What would happen to the road toll if the speed limit was 10 kmh :sherlock:..you are only as safe as the person coming straight at you.
>
Why do they call a head on collision an accident ?.. Why do people say ..I didn't see them,when first you would have to be looking?... Tell the average driver their skills are average or worse and see the reaction...What normally happens if you were cut off and shook your head,the other person would probably give you the finger ???... Unfortunately things will become tougher as the attitudes and driving skills get worse,the majority will be governed by rules for the minority...Doh..we already are?
>
Never forget what the Two Ronnies said.... Death can be Fatal.
It has been shown,statistically, that the number of fatallities diminish at a set rate with each reduction of the average speed of traffic.
At 10 kmh the formula states that dead people come back to life and rise from their graves.:hitcher:

[Pixie]

From Stuff - havent found the "poll", yet
". Mrs Oliver lost control of her bike as she rode down Rolleston St toward Wallace St, the court found. It established that the brake noodle was not installed into either brake calliper, leaving her with no means of slowing or stopping her bike."
What the fuck, is a brake noodle!!!

You don't know what a brake noodle is?
All Japanese and other asian sourced bikes have brake noodles.
They are a copy of the brake pasta Italian bikes have.
Pom bikes have brake spotted dicks, which aren't quite up to the standard of pasta.
German bikes may have Brake Wursts and you can forget about Harleys burger brakes.

[Kickaha]

The fewer trucks on the road the safer it is, trucks are overly represented in fatal road crashes,irrespective of weather its their fault or not.


Is that taking into account the mileages that Trucks do per year?

[inlinefour]

You know what? There are a lot of fucken self appointed experts on all matters to do with policing on this forum. But the reality is that you lot have all the questions but none of the answers.

You all want policing to be on your terms, when, where and how you want it so long as it affects others but not you. Well wake up dreamers because it isn't ever going to work like that.

You can critiscise all you want but until the motoring public wake up and start behaving like adults you will have to face the fact that there will be rigid policing of motoring behaviour. And the retards that foster a culture of doing runners from police will simply add weight to those arguing to ban high performance vehicles. If you want the most powerfull vehicle on the roads to be a Fisher & Paykel mobility scooter then keep acting like a winja or madboy because thats what will happen long term.


Its this sort of narrow, closed minded thinking that I'm talking about. True, I do not have the answers, but do you seriously think that the current status quo is the answer either? Ban high preformance vehicles, where will that sort of thinking stop? Ban freedom of speach and other basic human rights to ensure compliance with draconian law? I'm not saying that I want anything on my terms at all, I just believe that when something does not work, then its time to try something else. I see that you have made your mind up, or do you let Aunty Helen do that for yourself also? :crazy:

[Ixion]

You don't know what a brake noodle is?
All Japanese and other asian sourced bikes have brake noodles.
They are a copy of the brake pasta Italian bikes have.
Pom bikes have brake spotted dicks, which aren't quite up to the standard of pasta.
German bikes may have Brake Wursts and you can forget about Harleys burger brakes.

Hm. Cables have NIPPLES. Take a misspelled "nipple", add a Net-Nanny spell checker and noodle isn't too hard.

[Ixion]

Very true. I believe it stems from our socialist upbringing influenced by school teachers, unionists, lawyers, doctors, clergy, all of the outspoken useless talkers of society.
..


:Oi: :bash: Socialism is VERY hot on accountability !. Optimally, enforced at the pointy end of a Kalasnikov :ar15:

[Quasievil]

Is that taking into account the mileages that Trucks do per year?

no because its irrelevant, trucks do many more KMs on the road obviously but so what, they are overly represented in the Stats. If we utilised our failing rail system more we would remove more of them from the roads.
ive got nothing against truck drivers, hell I used to be one, but point is they are involved in to many crashes

[miSTa]

I see that the toll now stands at 16. I think really it shows that the current policies don't work and that govt has its head in the sand.

What gets me is the 'it doesn't work but if we keep on doing it for long enough it will work one day..." attitude. Time for some new ideas.

[Brian d marge]

Snip
Take a good look at who you have voted in to run this country! Look at the laws and rules they produce.
Snip
It's not my fault, officer I was badly potty trained it's always a "them" who is to blame, never a "me".
Get real New Zealand, it is us you and me who are to blame for letting these brainless bastards inflict themselves on us.
Snip
Its our country and it's us who are shitting in our own back yard.
Snip
We need fewer rules and laws with tougher consequences for those that break them, we need to be more individually ACCOUNTABLE for our actions.
Speed does not kill on the roads STUPIDITY does. :kick: John.

I would have to agree here. Ill start from the top,

apathy . When I was living in NZ , one of the things I struck was apathy ..as in ,,,I dont like this ,,still could be worse , mustnt grumble eh? ( before anyone starts , I have stood infront of 400 people in CHCH , trying to get people to do something about student fees ...( dont go there girlfriend!!!) and paid out of me own pocket to go to the behive and have a meeting with as many ministers as I could bend the ears of. !!
BUT I was banging my head against a brick wall , as the majority of people had the ,,,still mustnt grumble attitude ..
politcans LISTEN when votes are counted ,!!!

The draconian laws stem from, the lack of social responsiblity, ,,seatbelts , speeding ,,,etc by acting like an arse. you shit on the guy next door ....so if you dont like getting crapped on dont act like an arse !

bit simplistic, but works like this ,,,go out for the nite, ya mate is drinking water ,,, dont say things like ,,,what are ya.... why dont you have a real drink ......cos it all has a knock on effect

It doesnt matter WHO or WHAT you vote into government, their hands are tied. In order to have prudent management of the house, you have to save , ie stop spending ,,and if the BOOKS LOOK good , people will trade with us ( same as feedback on trademe !) . So all govenment dept must be self supporting , -or as near as damit -,,, and a cash cow is speeding,,, ( bad driving is a social responsibility/ education thing..and costs to much !)

Have a look at canada and they have INCREASED their speed limits, they looked at the 85 percentile rule and made a sensible law! and i seem to remember their D/toll was the same as the rest of us , ie NZ was no better or no worse than our trading partners,,,

One thing we all could do is start with close family, and let them feel aware that you have some basic common sence ground rules and encourage them to respect that , and to foster the same attitude ( what the Gov has been trying to do concerning drinking driving ,,just went arse about face at it as usual )

Finally, doing runners from the police, Racking up big fines and not paying,etc while I personally couldnt do it, I accept it will happen... the system is at fault, your average slackJaw ( love that expression ) is just responding in the best way they know

As every farmer knows , you leave the gate open ( system/Situation ) and the cows ( slackjaws , no offence to cows meant ) aint there in the morning ...no use blaming the cows ...its the system that was at fault ( gate open)

There are 2000 people on this site , 90 % are pissed off with the speeding tax ... One of us could write a well spelt, gramtikally lerjitimayte letter that we could copy, sign and send ( FREEPOST ..all letters to the behive are freepost ) ..to the polytitian you prefer......

Stephen

BTW , just did a google seach and at current market prices the above lot of tripe came to exactly 0.02 cents before tax.

[inlinefour]

I see that the toll now stands at 16. I think really it shows that the current policies don't work and that govt has its head in the sand.

What gets me is the 'it doesn't work but if we keep on doing it for long enough it will work one day..." attitude. Time for some new ideas.

Well said, just the point I was trying to make, cheers ZZR.:devil2:

[miSTa]

Have a look at canada and they have INCREASED their speed limits, they looked at the 85 percentile rule and made a sensible law! and i seem to remember their D/toll was the same as the rest of us , ie NZ was no better or no worse than our trading partners,,,

Also a number of states in the US have increased their speed limits recently as well. I believe all reported a decrease in road deaths.

[Skyryder]

yet driving on the wrong side of the road is relatively safe.

or in convoy with the Prime Minister in the back.

Skyryder.

[Skyryder]

I'd love to see redlight runners lose their licences on the spot. Hmmmmm, nah make the hung, drawn, and quartered on the spot. I hate anyone who thinks it is okay to race through a redlight. Absolute fuckers. If one hit me and I was still able to get up the po-po would have to arrest me for beating the driver to within an inch of their life.

I tend to agee with you insofar as it is a [I]red light[I] that is run. Unfortunately police have it in their power that if they choose you can get nailed for running a red, going through on the orange. Now when it comes to choices I'll go throug an orange with the proviso that it is safer for me to do so than suddenly slam on the anchors and get rear ended on a bike.

Which bring's to my attention (I'd forgotten about this) the complaint I sent to Roadwatch. There's a thread of mine on this. This was a police officer going through Red light. To date I have recieved no corrospondence on this.

Not surprising as this would have left a paper trail. As a result of this and other matters (PM's speeding motorcade) I have come to the conclusion that the police don't see the need for themselves to obey the road rules.

Skyryder

[Kickaha]

no because its irrelevant, trucks do many more KMs on the road obviously but so what, they are overly represented in the Stats.

I dont believe it is irrelevant,if crash statistics were looked at along with mileages travelled and the amount of them on the road I'd be willing to bet that motorcyles would be at top or not far off the list for most crashes per km travelled

If they could get the trucks off the road then that would be good,but rail has a bad reputation for delivering on time and from personal experience I certainly wouldn't use or reccomend them

There used to be a law that prohibited transporting something by truck over 120km? if it could be transported by rail, perhaps they could bring that back in:killingme


I see that the toll now stands at 16. I think really it shows that the current policies don't work and that govt has its head in the sand.

How does it show they dont work?

[terbang]

I have been involved in the Aviation industry for 27 years now especially in the area of pilot training and competency. One thing that aviation does, among others, in the light of increasing accident trends, is look at the role that crew training and competency plays and often the major changes are in that area. In todays modern aviation environment we continue to develop more advanced aircraft and Air traffic control solutions to avoid the "Dirt coming thu the front windows" and it has been identified that it is the crew (driver) element that is now a major weak link as engines rarely fail, wings just don't snap off anymore and, plainly speaking, we now know where all the mountains are.. Aviation as a responsible industry will allways attempt to improve the area of crew training and competency to combat accident statistics and as a whole are very open to new and improved suggestion on how to achieve it. We don't play Tom and Jerry entrapment games and we don't collect revenue off peoples mistakes instead we collect Knowledge and then pass it on in the form of training and thus change attitudes (the people grow with the technology).. Anyone remenber the Dash 8 that crashed at Palmerston North and the Palmy police took their usual stand by trying to thump the Captain for manslaughter with no regard for why it had happened. That approach to an accident investigation rocked the aviation industry to the core worldwide and resulted in a lot of legislation changes to stop what you could call "A good old thumping" getting in the way of finding the truth to prevent further (the Palmy plod are now famous worldwide for their ability to fuck up an aviation accident investigation).

OK why all this crap about planes and stuff? Well I reckon we have some parallels here in that we have seen some fairly quick advances in motor vehical technology. Whilst we can acknowledge a fair bit of change in driver licencing it is now just a bit more than the road code and a multi guess "scratchy" exam.. The thing that I notice is that the "human factors" such as hazardous attitudes, complacency and anger are poorly addressed and that the attitude from our regulators seems to be one of punish, collect some money and put nothing back into the industry to prevent it happening again (not even the money). They just don't seem to be thinking too far ahead and as roads and cars get safer we as the road user are still floundering around with a 20 year outdated safety regulator that would rather sit around with speed cameras than become proactive in driver education and competency.
It is a fundamental leadership issue in my view that is the root of the problem and until our regulators pull thier heads out of the sand and join the 21st century, we are going to see our road toll continue to climb.

[James Deuce]

Kickaha is right, though I suspect that push bikes would top the list of accidents per kms travelled with motorcycles a very close second. Pedestrians would probably be at the same level.

Terbang has made the most compelling argument yet for "crew" training.

I haven't met a driver/rider I could call consistently competent at an average level 100% of the time. Yet. I have met pilots who are utter loons on terra firma, but they are the most intensely safety concious, procedure oriented pilots who will put an aircraft down precisely on the same pice of tarmac (within a metre or two) everytime, and who take pride in improving their skills and knowledge. My understanding of the current road code is pathetic. How many of you buy every updated edition? We should, but just don't, probably because that would be an uncool approach to driving.

We could lead from the front, but we prefer to keep going on our own tangent, citing personal repsonsibility and "above average" skills as rationale for our blithe law breaking. For goodness sake, I do it too, so I'm not preaching from on high, but too often we just accept that we "deserve" the "right" to ride at speed on public roads.

Until we start training people properly I'm just going to keep on assuming that every vehicle on the road wants to kill me and ride accordingly. Hell, I don't trust half you buggers let alone people I don't know.

Harry Duynhoven is wrong. 95% of NZers are complacent, arrogant, ignorant, thoughtless drivers/riders, and the other 5% are homocidal, psychotic murderers. At least some of the time.

[Skyryder]

Harry Duynhoven is wrong. 95% of NZers are complacent, arrogant, ignorant, thoughtless drivers/riders, and the other 5% are homocidal, psychotic murderers. At least some of the time.

I'd go along with the arrogant. That's how I drive. I'm the only one on the road who knows what he's doing and I drive/ride accordingly.

Skyryder

[oldrider]

If aeroplanes were traveling in opposite directions less than one meter apart wherever they went and in single file, I am sure their safety record would be as crazy or worse than the road safety records are.
When the sky's are as congested and confined as our roads it will be comparing apples with apples. :spudwhat: Cheers john.

[terbang]

:sunny: Well John If I have to give a simplistic answer then take look at some of the airspace in the North atlantic and in Europe & USA and as I see it, it is apples compared to apples.
But not exactly the same I guess...
So lets draw an exact parallel for those that are struggling with a concept here and need to compare apples with apples.
Aeroplanes do have human factor type accidents (people do make mistakes and errors in judgement) just like cars and Motorcycles and a lot of these accidents have high impact forces, sometimes with fire and commonly with the result being thier occupants/riders (passengers and drivers) suffering horiffic, grotesque, dismembering injuries and so often followed by a painful death that has a deep and lasting impact and cost on our families and society
(perhaps you may now say that it is no comparison as the apples are now likely to be blended in with everything else) :puke:
We can minimise those mistakes by teaching and promoting sound judgement along with good handling skills.
Or in simple catchy words "Educate above Legislate or Train rather than Cane"..
However education costs and speed cameras generate revenue so are we really going to see any changes?

Selamat Tahun Baru :Police:
Bruce

[Marmoot]

Selamat Tahun Baru :Police:
Bruce

You too, Bruce. Hope this 2006 will be better for us motorcyclers......sorry, motorcyclists.........

[inlinefour]

You got an example?

But nor do the Police or the government...:crazy:

[Pixie]

Have a look at canada and they have INCREASED their speed limits, they looked at the 85 percentile rule and made a sensible law! and i seem to remember their D/toll was the same as the rest of us , ie NZ was no better or no worse than our trading partners,,,

For all the people that have asked what is the alternative and how bad it would be with less/no enforcement.
This is the answer.People will travel at the speed they are comfortable at.The average speed would not increase significantly.
Police dangerous driving not speed.
And teach the cop what dangerous is.

[Pixie]

I haven't met a driver/rider I could call consistently competent at an average level 100% of the time. Yet. I have met pilots who are utter loons on terra firma, but they are the most intensely safety concious, procedure oriented pilots who will put an aircraft down precisely on the same pice of tarmac (within a metre or two) everytime, and who take pride in improving their skills and knowledge. .
This is probably due to the fact that you don't stand a good chance of walking away from a plane crash.
Cars are too safe.
Put an obvious danger in all of them,analogous to the 500 feet a plane will drop before it hits the ground.
I like the 6 inch spike in front of the driver's forehead idea.

[Monsterbishi]

Well, road toll is now up to 20.

[marty]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10362106

but there's obviously some idiots on the road at the moment

[marty]

I have been involved in the Aviation industry for 27 years now especially in the area of pilot training and competency. One thing that aviation does, among others, in the light of increasing accident trends, is look at the role that crew training and competency plays and often the major changes are in that area. In todays modern aviation environment we continue to develop more advanced aircraft and Air traffic control solutions to avoid the "Dirt coming thu the front windows" and it has been identified that it is the crew (driver) element that is now a major weak link as engines rarely fail, wings just don't snap off anymore and, plainly speaking, we now know where all the mountains are.. Aviation as a responsible industry will allways attempt to improve the area of crew training and competency to combat accident statistics and as a whole are very open to new and improved suggestion on how to achieve it. We don't play Tom and Jerry entrapment games and we don't collect revenue off peoples mistakes instead we collect Knowledge and then pass it on in the form of training and thus change attitudes (the people grow with the technology).. Anyone remenber the Dash 8 that crashed at Palmerston North and the Palmy police took their usual stand by trying to thump the Captain for manslaughter with no regard for why it had happened. That approach to an accident investigation rocked the aviation industry to the core worldwide and resulted in a lot of legislation changes to stop what you could call "A good old thumping" getting in the way of finding the truth to prevent further (the Palmy plod are now famous worldwide for their ability to fuck up an aviation accident investigation).

OK why all this crap about planes and stuff? Well I reckon we have some parallels here in that we have seen some fairly quick advances in motor vehical technology. Whilst we can acknowledge a fair bit of change in driver licencing it is now just a bit more than the road code and a multi guess "scratchy" exam.. The thing that I notice is that the "human factors" such as hazardous attitudes, complacency and anger are poorly addressed and that the attitude from our regulators seems to be one of punish, collect some money and put nothing back into the industry to prevent it happening again (not even the money). They just don't seem to be thinking too far ahead and as roads and cars get safer we as the road user are still floundering around with a 20 year outdated safety regulator that would rather sit around with speed cameras than become proactive in driver education and competency.
It is a fundamental leadership issue in my view that is the root of the problem and until our regulators pull thier heads out of the sand and join the 21st century, we are going to see our road toll continue to climb.

hey there's your answer! make cars so expensive that they have to be hired (like aeroplanes) and have the hirer vet every driver's (pilot's) logbook before handing over the keys.

and yes, i am involved in aviation.

[madboy]

Spud, don't take it personally, but the bollocks you spout is the exact reason why I don't hang around for a chat with your brethren. I don't recall being chased on a bike for doing anything that would earn me a dangerous driving charge. Okay, once the chases began, different story, and EVERY time the lunatic with the 1600kg weapon behind me was doing much the same as I was on my 170kg weapon. EVERY time the plod have wanted a word about my riding it's initially been for exceeding the speed limit, and most times within 30k of the limit. Not dangerous. If the 5-0 policed dangerous driving/riding, I'd have never experienced a runner.

I agree with many others here, even you to an extent, in that it's the idiots, the stupid ones. But I don't see exceeding the speed limit as stupid. I don't see passing on yellows stupid. I don't see running red lights as stupid. Wrong time and place, yeah, it's f***ing stupid. But right time and place it's a nothing. The dumbing down of our road enforcement to the point where there is no longer discretion or common sense applied is the true definition of stupid, and your attitude displayed here just demonstrates exactly why our police force is so unloved and ineffective at policing road safety.

Spud, if the cops are doing so right, answer me this. A camera van frequently sits on the Wgtn mway, just north of Aotea Quay. Usually during the day. 3-lane each way, median barriered section of mway, the nearest intersection is the offramp to Ngauranga Gorge, more than a kilometre up the road. I can take the "corner" section that the camera hides just after at over 200k in either bike or car, without leaving the lane. Clearly it's not a sharp corner then. Last accident I recall there was a rubbish truck that slide across the road and landed on the barrier. It was pissing down with rain, and about 7am. I bet you the truck was doing less than 110k. There's also the odd nose to tail in rush hour (and I bet they weren't doing over 110k either). WHAT CONTRIBUTION IS THAT CAMERA MAKING TO ROAD SAFETY?

At least some of the other cops around here are a little more honest. They're just towing the party line, doing what they're told. But you seem to actually believe the bullshit that you're spouting. Quite frankly, it scares me. I really thought cops had to be smarter than that.

[TLDV8]

Road Toll
Has anyone thought (In this day of PC and hand holding) how crazy being able to drive on single lane roads and actually go into the opposing lane to overtake is..... If there was no such such thing as this mode of transport and someone came up with the idea today they would probably be told to !@#$ off with such a looney idea?......Nothing wrong with the concept excepting the corners,overtaking and following others. :confused: ...It should all work out when we are confined to single file in little boxs that run between metal guide rails... kind of like the Ghost Train at the Easter show.:2thumbsup

[Swoop]

A camera van frequently sits on the Wgtn mway, just north of Aotea Quay. Usually during the day. 3-lane each way, median barriered section of mway, the nearest intersection is the offramp to Ngauranga Gorge, more than a kilometre up the road. I can take the "corner" section that the camera hides just after at over 200k in either bike or car, without leaving the lane. Clearly it's not a sharp corner then. Last accident I recall there was a rubbish truck that slide across the road and landed on the barrier. It was pissing down with rain, and about 7am. I bet you the truck was doing less than 110k. There's also the odd nose to tail in rush hour (and I bet they weren't doing over 110k either). WHAT CONTRIBUTION IS THAT CAMERA MAKING TO ROAD SAFETY?

Not knowing the area, I have to guess that this is an accident "black spot" so the authorities have the "permission of the public" (because they "will only be used in accident areas") to place a camera there???

[SlashWylde]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10362106

but there's obviously some idiots on the road at the moment

Some interesting stats there:

"A total of 404 people died on New Zealand roads last year – 31 fewer than in 2004 and the lowest yearly road toll since 1963, Land Transport New Zealand said today."

Also:

"As recently as 1990 there were 729 road deaths. Since then annual road deaths have dropped by nearly 45 per cent, in spite of a 38 per cent increase in the number of vehicles on the road and a 20 per cent increase in population."

Out of interest I plotted the number of deaths against the year in question and performed a linear regression on the plot extrapolating out to 2010. If the trend continues along this line it looks like the LTNZ will get their result of less than 300 road deaths per year by 2010. So on cursory inspection it would appear that the un-popular and dogmatic approach taken by the govt over the last 15 years is working.

My argument still stands tho - that more could be donet to train and rigourously test new drivers; have a graduated licencing system for new young drivers including HP output levels for cars based on age and proven experience, and less of the rigid dogmatic apprach to speed and alchol being the main contributing factors to the road toll whilst effectively ignoring all else.

[terbang]

Speed cameras only target one certain area. They don't record Drunken/stoned pricks, Tailgaters, people with no WOF, people chatting on cellphones, those that have been driving for 10 hours and so on an on. They are just a cop out way of policing and a revenue gathering exercise and I suspect the money doesn't get poured back into improving standards..
Statistics can be modded in any way to suit any arguement like these guys (http://www.fastandsafe.org.nz/Pages/home.htm) have done so draw your own conclusions between the Police and these guys.

[madboy]

Out of interest I plotted the number of deaths against the year in question and performed a linear regression on the plot extrapolating out to 2010. If the trend continues along this line it looks like the LTNZ will get their result of less than 300 road deaths per year by 2010. So on cursory inspection it would appear that the un-popular and dogmatic approach taken by the govt over the last 15 years is working.Bet ya it doesn't though. Dimishing returns will kick it at some point, if it hasn't already. Don't let LTNZ see that graph though, else they'll start telling us that by 2030 driving will be producing lives.

Congestion as much as anything else has slowed down average speeds. Have you actually tried driving Wgtn-Auck lately? All things being equal, I cruise at 120-150 in the car on the open road. But I've been finding it almost impossible to actually maintain those speeds for any more than a short distance since there's so much traffic and so many more yellow lines. Now I might have a cavalier attitude to them on the bike, but in the car I tend to err on the side of caution unless I know the road well enough to know they're in the wrong place or just plain excessive (which more frequently they are becoming).

Stupid people cause crashes. And since NZ is full of stupid people, there will always be deaths. NZers are becoming good sheep and following the propaganda bandwagon, speed is killing us, so the idea of being even better electronically guided formation driving sheep is only a matter of years away. If you can't create intelligent people, you create technology that saves them from themselves.

Now where's my jandals? I need a quick trip to the shops...

[SlashWylde]

Bet ya it doesn't though. Dimishing returns will kick it at some point, if it hasn't already. Don't let LTNZ see that graph though, else they'll start telling us that by 2030 driving will be producing lives.

Aggreed. I think in the next few years, the curve will tend to an asymptote. What concerns me is whether the govt considers the stats gathered from road deaths etc to be indicative of a purely linear system. i.e. one that continues in a straight line for ever. Hence the tounge in cheek prediction of negative deaths by 2025.

[Swoop]

0 deaths by 2025, that would be an achievement.

All this is happening while our population has grown to over 4 million "kiwis".:crazy:

The scary part is the fact that alcohol was involved in the minority of deaths. So statistically it's safer to drive drunk. (Using statistics to prove any point possible:rofl: ) the sober drivers are the more dangerous ones... ?

[Clockwork]

IMO the fixed camaras seem to do a pretty good job and in most cases seem to be placed to improve road safety but from what I have observed the mobile camera placements seem to to have only two criteria;
1.) Is the position safe for the operator.
2.) Is there some concealing cover or shade available.

[scumdog]

Have a look at canada and they have INCREASED their speed limits, they looked at the 85 percentile rule and made a sensible law! and i seem to remember their D/toll was the same as the rest of us , ie NZ was no better or no worse than our trading partners,,,



Yeah, but the Canadians generally drive a shit-load better than the average Kiwi driver - who has NO idea what courtesy and consideration are let alone safety!

Kiwi drivers are like 8 year old boys at a birthday party - it's all me! me! me!, push and shove and devil take the hindmost.

[spudchucka]

Nice rant Spud, but your way isn't working and your retard bosses have too much 'face' involved to ever admit they're wrong and try any alternatives.
A few of which have been suggested here many times.
I wouldn't care if we never targeted speed again. I'd be more than happy to target stupidity and have the power to remove stupid people from the roads. The problem being however that the wheels of industry would grind to a halt because after a few weeks there wouldn't be any legitimate road users left.

[NordieBoy]

Death kills.
Make death illegal and only criminals will die...

Or something...

[spudchucka]

Its this sort of narrow, closed minded thinking that I'm talking about. True, I do not have the answers, but do you seriously think that the current status quo is the answer either? Ban high preformance vehicles, where will that sort of thinking stop? Ban freedom of speach and other basic human rights to ensure compliance with draconian law? I'm not saying that I want anything on my terms at all, I just believe that when something does not work, then its time to try something else. I see that you have made your mind up, or do you let Aunty Helen do that for yourself also? :crazy:
The mental health system in NZ is fucked, not working and to blame for many unnecessary deaths. The people working in mental health are incompetant and the organisations administrators are narrow minded and focused solely on keeping crazy people out of institutions for the sole purpose of saving the Govt revenue.

How can I justify this statement? I'm not an expert in mental health but I've met my fair share of crazy fuckers, (most of them were the ones wearing the white coats).

The above is my assessment but I don't propose to tell the incompetants working in mental health how to do their jobs because I'm not an expert in that area.

You, along with most others that moan constantly about police are not an expert in law or policing.

Have your opinions by all means but enjoy wallowing in them safe in the knowledge that as long as the average drivers mental age reduces suddenly the moment they are in charge of a motor vehicle there will always be draconian laws and heavy policing of our roads.

[spudchucka]

I see that the toll now stands at 16. I think really it shows that the current policies don't work and that govt has its head in the sand.

What gets me is the 'it doesn't work but if we keep on doing it for long enough it will work one day..." attitude. Time for some new ideas.
The reason police target speed is to reduce trauma. The crashes will happen, they are inevitable. Reducing speeds and wearing safety belts will help reduce the carnage.

[spudchucka]

But nor do the Police or the government...:crazy:
Opinions are like arseholes.......

[scumdog]

I think most on this site could figure out all the above themselves Spud. - yeah right!

[Fatjim]

The reason police target speed is to reduce trauma. The crashes will happen, they are inevitable. Reducing speeds and wearing safety belts will help reduce the carnage.

The reason they target speed is because they CAN. I don't see any HAWK stupidity radars out there. I'ts about time they had cameras, and BIG ones, not the pissant ones in "cruisers" you see on Worlds (read USA) wildest chases.

[inlinefour]

Opinions are like arseholes.......

And the biggest ones end up in the government?:killingme Happy new year spud.:niceone:

[spudchucka]

Spud, don't take it personally, but the bollocks you spout is the exact reason why I don't hang around for a chat with your brethren. I don't recall being chased on a bike for doing anything that would earn me a dangerous driving charge. Okay, once the chases began, different story, and EVERY time the lunatic with the 1600kg weapon behind me was doing much the same as I was on my 170kg weapon. EVERY time the plod have wanted a word about my riding it's initially been for exceeding the speed limit, and most times within 30k of the limit. Not dangerous. If the 5-0 policed dangerous driving/riding, I'd have never experienced a runner.
I'm not about to indulge you in a discussion aimed at justifying your foolish behaviour.


I agree with many others here, even you to an extent, in that it's the idiots, the stupid ones. But I don't see exceeding the speed limit as stupid. I don't see passing on yellows stupid. I don't see running red lights as stupid. Wrong time and place, yeah, it's f***ing stupid. But right time and place it's a nothing. The dumbing down of our road enforcement to the point where there is no longer discretion or common sense applied is the true definition of stupid, and your attitude displayed here just demonstrates exactly why our police force is so unloved and ineffective at policing road safety.There can never be discretion showed towards red light runner and overtakers on yellow lines. Harry Dhynhoven wants to take their licences off them at the roadside. Good job, if they can't drive within accepted standards then they don't deserve the privelidge of being a road user.


Spud, if the cops are doing so right, answer me this. A camera van frequently sits on the Wgtn mway, just north of Aotea Quay. Usually during the day. 3-lane each way, median barriered section of mway, the nearest intersection is the offramp to Ngauranga Gorge, more than a kilometre up the road. I can take the "corner" section that the camera hides just after at over 200k in either bike or car, without leaving the lane. Clearly it's not a sharp corner then. Last accident I recall there was a rubbish truck that slide across the road and landed on the barrier. It was pissing down with rain, and about 7am. I bet you the truck was doing less than 110k. There's also the odd nose to tail in rush hour (and I bet they weren't doing over 110k either). WHAT CONTRIBUTION IS THAT CAMERA MAKING TO ROAD SAFETY?I've got no love for speed cameras. As far as I'm concerned they are the one aspect of road policing that does stink of revenue collection.

The van probably parks in that spot because of staff safety requirements, (OSH).


At least some of the other cops around here are a little more honest. They're just towing the party line, doing what they're told. But you seem to actually believe the bullshit that you're spouting. Quite frankly, it scares me. I really thought cops had to be smarter than that.If you are calling me dishonest then you can go screw yourself. What I say is based on my experiences and observations but is obviously also influenced by my work. You might call it bullshit, thats your opinion. My opinion is that your talk of runners is a load of old wank and you will will come unstuck in time, either by getting caught big time or by killing yourself or somebody else.

[Fatjim]

Opinions are like arseholes.......

See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372588/quotes

[miSTa]

The reason police target speed is to reduce trauma. The crashes will happen, they are inevitable. Reducing speeds and wearing safety belts will help reduce the carnage.

They maybe inevitable but ticketing drivers going over the speed limit is not the only means of crash prevention.


I wouldn't care if we never targeted speed again. I'd be more than happy to target stupidity and have the power to remove stupid people from the roads. The problem being however that the wheels of industry would grind to a halt because after a few weeks there wouldn't be any legitimate road users left.

Somewhat of an exaggeration, but it would bring about a change of mindset (which is needed). So you're saying the needs of business should overide the needs of public safety? I wouldn't think so but your comment is open to interpretation.

[Fatjim]

i know it's wrong, I know you have to have rules for everybody, that don't suit or appear sane to me. When it comes down to it, it's too damn hard not to. I guess I'll pay the fines and hope I don't kill someone else or myself.

Hows that for honesty

[spudchucka]

They maybe inevitable but ticketing drivers going over the speed limit is not the only means of crash prevention.



Somewhat of an exaggeration, but it would bring about a change of mindset (which is needed). So you're saying the needs of business should overide the needs of public safety? I wouldn't think so but your comment is open to interpretation.
So is any comment. Read it as it is or put your own spin on it. Thats what these forums are all about aren't they? Twisting other peoples words for the sole purpose of shit stirring?

[Fatjim]

So you're saying the needs of business should overide the needs of public safety? I wouldn't think so but your comment is open to interpretation.

Yep, thats exactly why we still have camper vans filled with foreigners on our roads.

[inlinefour]

So is any comment. Read it as it is or put your own spin on it. Thats what these forums are all about aren't they? Twisting other peoples words for the sole purpose of shit stirring?

Besides, I ride too much like a nana to either get a ticket, nor do a runner:killingme

[scumdog]

. If the 5-0 policed dangerous driving/riding, I'd have never experienced a runner.

I agree with many others here, even you to an extent, in that it's the idiots, the stupid ones. But I don't see exceeding the speed limit as stupid.
.
And doing a runner is not (at times for the pedants) dangerous??????

Exceeding the speed limit IS dangerous - in the wrong place BUT the law does not differentiate and yet everybody has to justify why THEIR speeding at XX place was not dangerous to any person.
So slow down or pay up (or go to court and try and defend it if you feel rich enough)

[Pixie]

Yeah, but the Canadians generally drive a shit-load better than the average Kiwi driver - who has NO idea what courtesy and consideration are let alone safety!

Kiwi drivers are like 8 year old boys at a birthday party - it's all me! me! me!, push and shove and devil take the hindmost.
And why is this?
Perhaps it is because there is less 'win at all costs' sports aggression bullshit,indoctrinated into the young.It's not because of fanatical traffic enforcement,because that is only a policy of NZ,Victoria and some English jurisdictions.Basically the followers of the Swedish dwarf who acts as a consultant to these countries.
And maybe they spend money on driver training in Canada.

[Indoo]

For all the people that have asked what is the alternative and how bad it would be with less/no enforcement.
This is the answer.People will travel at the speed they are comfortable at.The average speed would not increase significantly.
Police dangerous driving not speed.
And teach the cop what dangerous is.

And if you didn't have a large proportion of idiots on the road this might work. However what speed to you think a young idiot in a turbo jap car with his mates is going to find 'comfortable', or Mr Smallpenis in his HSV who has something to prove.

You would end up with these idiots who want to do 140+ spending alot of time on the wrong side of the road overtaking joe blogs with his family whose doing 110 and just wants to get to his destination preferably alive.

[Ducman]

Just read today the road toll is the lowest in 44 years

[madboy]

Scumdog, the runner doesn't start until the cop tries to pull you over. And why do they try and pull you over? For speeding. So if they focused on dangerous driving to start with, and not speeding, then they wouldn't have tried to pull the bike over. So the runner would have never started. And that means the cops wouldn't have been on the wrong side of the road at 200k into oncoming traffic. But since a 1600kg car (or 3) doing 200k+ into oncoming traffic on the other side of the road is better for road safety than a 170kg motorcycle doing 130k in their own lane with no cars in front or behind... guess what's gonna happen.

Spud, you and Andy Knacksted need to get a room. Last time I had to listen to a cop tell me that ticketing me for 120-something on a deserted 4-lane/median barriered mway was contributing to road safety... oh God, it took me ages to wipe the tears from my eyes.

Can't you just admit that Road Safety as administered by the cops in NZ is just revenue gathering? At least IRD are honest about what their jobs are.

By saying you don't agree with cameras, you're also saying you don't agree with a significant proportion of the road policing that goes on. Like the Highway Patrol for starters. Most of those guys seem to park exactly where 110+ is safe and easy to do. JUST LIKE CAMERA VANS. I don't see too many HP hiding in the middle of Paekak or the takas busting cages coming around blind corners on the wrong side of the road. God no, because that doesn't immediately self fund.

[scumdog]

Scumdog, the runner doesn't start until the cop tries to pull you over. And why do they try and pull you over? For speeding. So if they focused on dangerous driving to start with, and not speeding, then they wouldn't have tried to pull the bike over. So the runner would have never started. And that means the cops wouldn't have been on the wrong side of the road at 200k into oncoming traffic. But since a 1600kg car (or 3) doing 200k+ into oncoming traffic on the other side of the road is better for road safety than a 170kg motorcycle doing 130k in their own lane with no cars in front or behind... guess what's gonna happen.


Nothing like taking a bit of personal responsibilty eh?:slap:

"..not MY fault if they decide to chase me and it all turns to shit......"


And how fast would you go before you thought "yeah, fair cop, I'm going too fast and better stop for the cop"?

[madboy]

Nothing like taking a bit of personal responsibilty eh?:slap:

"..not MY fault if they decide to chase me and it all turns to shit......"You're damn right it's personal responsibility.

Think of the chain of events of a runner.

Bike exceeds speed limit, cop tries to stop bike, bike runs, cop chases.

At any point here any party can pull out and the chain of events is terminated, and a runner either ends or is avoided. What's that saying, it takes two to tango... and the other one - two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm not saying runners are right, I'm saying they work better for me than stopping every friggin time. But if one of you fellas takes me on, and kills someone in the process, it's your fault not mine. I decided to run, but you decided to chase me. If it's my bike nailing the kid, then I'm guilty of manslaughter. But if it's your Commodore, you bastards will do everything you can to run from that. Particularly after you've just bullshitted comms about the speeds involved, you've left out the dodgy bits that went down during the pursuit, and nobody mentioned anything about the traffic conditions being completely different to what was reported.

Personal responsibility.

[Indoo]

Blahblah...Personal responsibility.

I think Madboy had parents like these.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3527840a11,00.html

[Marmoot]

However what speed to you think a young idiot in a turbo jap car with his mates is going to find 'comfortable', or Mr Smallpenis in his HSV who has something to prove.

I still wonder what are the actual difference between young idiot in a turbo jap car and young idiot on a superbike.......or Mr Smallpenis in an HSV and Mr Smallpenis on a cruiser bike...

Or, for that matter, a good driver in a turbo jap car and a good rider.

:wacko:

[Indoo]

I still wonder what are the actual difference between young idiot in a turbo jap car and young idiot on a superbike.......or Mr Smallpenis in an HSV and Mr Smallpenis on a cruiser bike...

:

The fact that the young idiot on a superbike is far more likely to only kill himself rather than young idiots in a cars who have a nasty habit of taking there passengers with them not to mention the poor innocent party who just happens to be coming the other way.

[Marmoot]

*snip*not to mention the poor innocent party who just happens to be coming the other way.

Oh right. I forgot about that, sorry. This will not happen with bikes, aye? :Pokey:

[madboy]

I think Madboy had parents like these.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3527840a11,00.htmlGuess they've seen the police assault their son and bash a hole in his car windscreen while he lay handcuffed on the ground underneath an officer too.


The fact that the young idiot on a superbike is far more likely to only kill himself rather than young idiots in a cars who have a nasty habit of taking there passengers with them not to mention the poor innocent party who just happens to be coming the other way.
So what you're saying is the bike is much less likely to kill someone than a car. Which makes even more of a mockery of the pigs chasing, cos up until that point it's only a bike speeding. Suddenly it's a bike going excessively fast, followed by 1 to 8 CARS going excessively fast. Do the math.

[SlashWylde]

Less likely but stil capable of killing...

[Marmoot]

Less likely but stil capable of killing...

Or something closer to home: the story of Erin Burges

[madboy]

Or something closer to home: the story of Erin BurgesWas that the chase up northland way where the bike took out an oncoming car, killed the girl?

[scumdog]

I'm so enlightened, so the way it SOULD be is:

Bikers can travel as fast as the want, if an individual from the Police forgets this and attempts to stop the biker due to his speed the biker is at liberty to vacate the area with all possible speed whereupon the Police should immediately pull over, turn off red&blue lights as well as the siren should it have been used.
The biker is then able to carry on (somehow knowing that he is not being chased anymore - but of course he knows that, see first line!!) at the speed he desires, - gosh this is all so simple, why has nobody explained this to me before????!:doh:

And oh, I'm waiting for the answer to the last comment I made on my previous post.:wait:

[Marmoot]

Was that the chase up northland way where the bike took out an oncoming car, killed the girl?

yes, i believe.......unless the story was only a fabrication?

[RantyDave]

You must remember that none of the powers that be actually have any functional brain cells.
You see, I hate this attitude. I have met a few of the powers that be and I can assure you that many of them are focussed, diligent and intelligent human beings who dedicate themselves 100% to remaining in power.

What? Do some good for the public? Do get a grip - there are policies to police, spin to be spun and Ngai Whatever to appease. Where are they supposed to find time to improve everyone else's quality of life?

Dave

[madboy]

Of course the higher the speed the more unlikely it is that I'd even consider stopping in the first place. 95% chance of a ticket (or worse) if I stop, 95% chance of not getting a ticket if I don't. Gee, tough choice.

Look, Scumdog, I think you and I should just agree to disagree on runners and the like. You strike me as one of the good guys, unlike certain of your brethren on this site. I don't really think I should be arguing this with you.

I do believe that the police focus on road safety is in the wrong place. And I'm sure you would agree with me in some respects on that. Cameras, lowering the speeding tolerance, focusing on the lower end, not the upper. Competency of drivers, etc etc etc...

But hey, we live in a modern world, and money does make the world go around. So unless we develop a Maori road safety initiative (in which case endless funds will be available), we've got to accept that it's all about self-funding. Just hope it doesn't spread further up the tree and you start having to issue instant fines for beating the wife.

[Indoo]

Oh right. I forgot about that, sorry. This will not happen with bikes, aye? :Pokey:

Did you not read the part where I said far more likely?

How often do you read about bikers crashing into oncoming cars and wiping out all the occupants of the oncoming car, compared to some young dick in a car too fast for him killing others?

The guy on the bike is still a knob, but the vast majority of bike crashes revolve around the biker dieing, even when not at fault.

[Marmoot]

How often do you read about bikers crashing into oncoming cars and wiping out all the occupants of the oncoming car, compared to some young dick in a car too fast for him killing others?

The guy on the bike is still a knob, but the vast majority of bike crashes revolve around the biker dieing, even when not at fault.

death is death, regardless of whose and how many.
But, on the note of how often, I see a lot of crashes resulting from rider errors everyday. Don't you?

[idb]

I blame the hospitals, Government and social services that save 'tards that in any other animal group would have been eliminated.
Because of that we all ahave to share the roads with these saved 'tards.

Aaahhhh...you are truly a scholar and philosopher of some standing SD.
Sense at last!

[Indoo]

death is death, regardless of whose and how many.
But, on the note of how often, I see a lot of crashes resulting from rider errors everyday. Don't you?

Yep and we also have a high suicide rate, what I'm more concerned about now I have a family is some idiot driving a car far beyond his abilties coming around a corner and taking out said family.

I really don't care about rider error or dick's who cant spend .001 of a second putting on there seat belt. So long as they die and they don't take out any innocent party its a bit of a win win situation as far as I'm concerned. I've never doubted Darwin.

[idb]

I think that, telephone polls notwithstanding, if you were able to interview everyone on the road at a particular time and ask them what dangerous driving they actually observed they would talk about tailgating, overtaking, wandering over the centreline before mentioning speeding.
Harder to police I accept but concentrating so rigidly on speeding is alienating a large chunk of the populace that doesn't deserve to be targetted.

Don't ask me for answers, just leave me alone.

[SPman]

And if you didn't have a large proportion of idiots on the road this might work. However what speed to you think a young idiot in a turbo jap car with his mates is going to find 'comfortable', or Mr Smallpenis in his HSV who has something to prove.

You would end up with these idiots who want to do 140+ spending alot of time on the wrong side of the road overtaking joe blogs with his family whose doing 110
And then it can quickly become dangerous driving........so hit them with that!

[idb]

And then it can quickly become dangerous driving........so hit them with that!
Exactly78910

[miSTa]

And oh, I'm waiting for the answer to the last comment I made on my previous post.:wait:

You mean this one SD?
Nothing like taking a bit of personal responsibilty eh?

"..not MY fault if they decide to chase me and it all turns to shit......"

Can't argue against that.

[spudchucka]

Scumdog, the runner doesn't start until the cop tries to pull you over. And why do they try and pull you over? For speeding. So if they focused on dangerous driving to start with, and not speeding, then they wouldn't have tried to pull the bike over. So the runner would have never started. And that means the cops wouldn't have been on the wrong side of the road at 200k into oncoming traffic. But since a 1600kg car (or 3) doing 200k+ into oncoming traffic on the other side of the road is better for road safety than a 170kg motorcycle doing 130k in their own lane with no cars in front or behind... guess what's gonna happen.

Spud, you and Andy Knacksted need to get a room. Last time I had to listen to a cop tell me that ticketing me for 120-something on a deserted 4-lane/median barriered mway was contributing to road safety... oh God, it took me ages to wipe the tears from my eyes.

Can't you just admit that Road Safety as administered by the cops in NZ is just revenue gathering? At least IRD are honest about what their jobs are.

By saying you don't agree with cameras, you're also saying you don't agree with a significant proportion of the road policing that goes on. Like the Highway Patrol for starters. Most of those guys seem to park exactly where 110+ is safe and easy to do. JUST LIKE CAMERA VANS. I don't see too many HP hiding in the middle of Paekak or the takas busting cages coming around blind corners on the wrong side of the road. God no, because that doesn't immediately self fund.
You're an idiot mate. Its not worth anymore of my time indulging you in your fantasies.

[madboy]

You're an idiot mate. Its not worth anymore of my time indulging you in your fantasies.Yes, frustration with idiocy is one of the reasons your brethren don't get indulged at the roadside too.

[spudchucka]

Yes, frustration with idiocy is one of the reasons your brethren don't get indulged at the roadside too.
Like I've said before, you'll get a karma slap eventually, its just a matter of time.

[Kickaha]

Nothing like taking a bit of personal responsibilty eh?:slap:



Personal responsibilty? you've got to be fucking joking :lol:

[Lou Girardin]

Anyone noticed that the road toll is the lowest in years?
There was John Kelly taking credit for it due to their targeting of speeders. He convieniently forgot the mention that two months of record fuel prices curtailed quite a lot of recreational driving, and he also avoided mentioning the 20+ dead at the time of the interview.
And, realistically speaking, since 1999 the road toll has varied between 460 and 404. Next year chance could have it back to 450.
Another interesting comment was comparing our population and car ownership to Australian states. we have a higher level of ownership as states with similar populations and we have nearly as many cars as NSW wihich has a population of 6,500,000. That's why our road toll is higher.

[madboy]

Anyone noticed that the road toll is the lowest in years?
There was John Kelly taking credit for it due to their targeting of speeders. He's just getting all excited because his wife is putting out after his performance bonus paid for her new car.

[Yokai]

[rant mode on]


Obviously you didn't see this... never mind.

I'll snip the extraneous stuff just to keep things short.



I'm middle income.

Are you a lower to middle class income earner?


Yup - I'm middle income.... based on the median wages from this site:
http://www2.stats.govt.nz/domino/external/web/CommProfiles.nsf/FindInfobyArea/007-ta

Unless you mean "middle class" which I am too - there is a difference between
"middle income class" (from your original post:
"In the middle to low income classes, we are now seeing New Zealanders working harder & longer to maintain previous lifestyles.") and "middle class income earner".

a middle income class is one that is roughly the median for the area.
a middle class income is one that allows the trappings of "middle class" (for a definition see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class)

Different things. I'm middle income and middle class too! Cool, huh?


Or can't you read? (Because I'm sure most Self-Bragging ex-silicon breast implanted workers aren't!)

Nice use of judgment... I'll take this as hyperbole and a lack of understanding of the difference between silicon and silicone. As for Self-Bragging hmmm. Ok - I do like to think that I'm good at what I do. I try hard and work hard for it... and when reviewed by my peers I come out pretty good. *shrug* if that's Self-Bragging (sic) then yup that's me...



Just so you know, I've had four green rep posts for my reply and only your negative remark!

Well, excuse me for ranting - that's why I put a set of rant mode tags around the post. I've frankly had it with people saying that we are hard done by with our increase in hours or hard work or whatever here... We have a health system that works (sort of) which we don't have to pay extra for, an education system that turns out great sportspeople and business people and world leaders. We have longer holidays than other countries (2weeks in the US+ 5 days of sick ONLY). We have better food. We have it good: a lot of opportunity and nice lifestyles for NOT so much of the hard work.



Also, Dick wad......

That's just said in the heat of the moment... I'm sure.

Anything else take it to PM...

[MSTRS]

Another long thread on the EvilsOfSpeeding......
Why is it that NO-ONE can see that it is not speeding that kills - IT IS THE SUDDEN STOP FFS.
Astronauts travel at (let's say) 50,000 kph and DON'T DIE.
And what is speeding anyway??? I'd rather be a passenger with Greg Murphy (say) at 300kph than with Granny WeatherWax at 50kph.
Was it speeding that killed me when I exceeded 100kph to pass MrDickhead in his turbo-charged roadrocket travelling at 91.5kph for fear of being pinged?? Or was it frustration??
The ounce of commonsense we were all born with seems to have atrophied due to neglect.

[Ixion]

Nope. I'd take Granny Weatherwax anyday. What sort of skills does Mr Murphey have on broomsticks anyway.And, besides Granny Weatherwax has FRIENDS.

[MSTRS]

Nope. I'd take Granny Weatherwax anyday. What sort of skills does Mr Murphey have on broomsticks anyway.And, besides Granny Weatherwax has FRIENDS.
You are t-h-i-s close to being sent to the furtherest Clacks tower in Klatchia, my friend. Transported by Sergeant Colon

[inlinefour]

Was riding with another bike back into town and passed a HP car going the other way. He knew we was going too fast and flashed his headlights at us. I slowed down but the other bike went faster. Looked in my mirror and the HP was continuing gong the other way:niceone: I guess I am a nana rider that will stop when directed to do so. Also nice to know that Mr HP has a good day from time to time.:first:

[inlinefour]

The ounce of commonsense we were all born with seems to have atrophied due to neglect.

Sad, but never the less true. Sorry I did not catch up with you when you was down this way. Hope you frequent these parts again and I'm able to catch up.:corn:

[MSTRS]

Sad, but never the less true. Sorry I did not catch up with you when you was down this way. Hope you frequent these parts again and I'm able to catch up.:corn:
Yea - might be on the Beast next time. Tend to be flying visits for family things tho.

[Gasman]

Another long thread on the EvilsOfSpeeding......
Why is it that NO-ONE can see that it is not speeding that kills - IT IS THE SUDDEN STOP FFS.
Astronauts travel at (let's say) 50,000 kph and DON'T DIE.
And what is speeding anyway??? I'd rather be a passenger with Greg Murphy (say) at 300kph than with Granny WeatherWax at 50kph.
Was it speeding that killed me when I exceeded 100kph to pass MrDickhead in his turbo-charged roadrocket travelling at 91.5kph for fear of being pinged?? Or was it frustration??
The ounce of commonsense we were all born with seems to have atrophied due to neglect.


That's a lot of commonsense - specially the last bit. The simple fact is that there are too many irresponsible idiots on the road, including the one I saw go through a give way sign last night, way too fast, crossed the road then hit a bridge buttress. They were lucky to survive I suspect, but the main point is that in that case speed (and careless driving) could have killed, or was it the bridge that would have killed them? You know, they jump out at you! I also followed a young woman this morning(in a black Familia...of course) who left the lights at the same time as me, and quickly sped up to over 80km in a 50k zone. I sped up to 65 to just 'check' her speed and she was pulling strongly away. The stupid tart just didn't seem to have any idea of what a fool she was being. Instant loss of licence......but who cares, they all think they can drive like Mike Shoowatsisname, and what happens if a kid runs out or a biker legally pulls out of a side road, thinking the car is going to take much longer to reach that point. So, see, the results of speeding DO kill. I get really slacked off with wallies who claim that they can ride/drive safely at high speed because they are well trained, or because they have a high quality machine. OK, so are they all track trained drivers or riders? Denny Hulme, World Champion grand prix driver was often quoted on the subject. He always stated that high speed driving on a public road was sheer stupidity, because there are so many other wallies on the road. He talked about driving skill...to him it meant he could do higher average speeds, e.g quicker through corners, quite safely, but not by exceeding the speedlimit. Unfortunately there are only a handful of drivers and riders who truly are sufficiently trained...and there's another story!
:blank:

[MSTRS]

That's a lot of commonsense - specially the last bit. The simple fact is that there are too many irresponsible idiots on the road, including the one I saw go through a give way sign last night, way too fast, crossed the road then hit a bridge buttress. They were lucky to survive I suspect, but the main point is that in that case speed (and careless driving) could have killed, or was it the bridge that would have killed them? You know, they jump out at you! I also followed a young woman this morning(in a black Familia...of course) who left the lights at the same time as me, and quickly sped up to over 80km in a 50k zone. I sped up to 65 to just 'check' her speed and she was pulling strongly away. The stupid tart just didn't seem to have any idea of what a fool she was being. Instant loss of licence......but who cares, they all think they can drive like Mike Shoowatsisname, and what happens if a kid runs out or a biker legally pulls out of a side road, thinking the car is going to take much longer to reach that point. So, see, the results of speeding DO kill. I get really slacked off with wallies who claim that they can ride/drive safely at high speed because they are well trained, or because they have a high quality machine. OK, so are they all track trained drivers or riders? Denny Hulme, World Champion grand prix driver was often quoted on the subject. He always stated that high speed driving on a public road was sheer stupidity, because there are so many other wallies on the road. He talked about driving skill...to him it meant he could do higher average speeds, e.g quicker through corners, quite safely, but not by exceeding the speedlimit. Unfortunately there are only a handful of drivers and riders who truly are sufficiently trained...and there's another story!
:blank:

I'm not actually saying it's OK to 'speed'. It is the blind 'acceptance' of the speed message that annoys me. The speed one travels at should be appropriate for the conditions. And I would hazard a guess that for an 'accident' to occur, there would have to be more than one factor involved. Otherwise, if anyone exceeded 50kph in town or 100kph on the open road they would crash & die everytime. Since this is so obviously not the case, I would argue that the speed kills message is a half-truth and fundamentally flawed.

[Gasman]

Was riding with another bike back into town and passed a HP car going the other way. He knew we was going too fast and flashed his headlights at us. I slowed down but the other bike went faster. Looked in my mirror and the HP was continuing gong the other way:niceone: I guess I am a nana rider that will stop when directed to do so. Also nice to know that Mr HP has a good day from time to time.:first:

I had the same experience a few weeks ago while on a country ride. HP man just waggled his finger at me and kept going. Obviously had bigger fish to fry, or perhaps he knew what I was riding and that I wasn't likely to be hitting the double ton on it anytime soon!

[terbang]

I'm not actually saying it's OK to 'speed'. It is the blind 'acceptance' of the speed message that annoys me. The speed one travels at should be appropriate for the conditions. And I would hazard a guess that for an 'accident' to occur, there would have to be more than one factor involved. Otherwise, if anyone exceeded 50kph in town or 100kph on the open road they would crash & die everytime. Since this is so obviously not the case, I would argue that the speed kills message is a half-truth and fundamentally flawed.

Too true and as Ive said before its this "cop out" 1/2 way policing (at a great profit to someone) that frustrates most motorists where there is a bigger picture or more factors to accidents than just speed.

[Lou Girardin]

It's strange but young women seem to be figuring more in the stats, especially boy-racer type offences and accidents. Is this a consequence of the "girls can do anything" message?

[spudchucka]

Another long thread on the EvilsOfSpeeding......
Why is it that NO-ONE can see that it is not speeding that kills - IT IS THE SUDDEN STOP FFS.
Astronauts travel at (let's say) 50,000 kph and DON'T DIE.
And what is speeding anyway??? I'd rather be a passenger with Greg Murphy (say) at 300kph than with Granny WeatherWax at 50kph.
Was it speeding that killed me when I exceeded 100kph to pass MrDickhead in his turbo-charged roadrocket travelling at 91.5kph for fear of being pinged?? Or was it frustration??
The ounce of commonsense we were all born with seems to have atrophied due to neglect.
The problem is that we all have to share the same roads, Greg Murphy types as well as your Granny.

[MSTRS]

Greg Murphy types as well as your Granny.
Better I'd think. At least he is still with us.

[Finn]

That can't be right. According to the poll on www.stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz) yesterday, most NZers think it's "speeding" that's the most dangerous thing on NZ roads at holiday time.

I agree with you 100% there oldrider.

Most NZ'ers wouldn't have a thought of their own so this poll shouldn't surprise you. I think they've been watching too much TV.

[Lou Girardin]

Most NZ'ers wouldn't have a thought of their own so this poll shouldn't surprise you. I think they've been watching too much TV.

It sometimes seems that Nz'ers say what they think pollsters want to hear. Then they express their true feelings among kindred spirits.

[miSTa]

I don't believe any polls especially the ones on the Stuff website - absolute load of crap.

[inlinefour]

I don't believe any polls especially the ones on the Stuff website - absolute load of crap.

It my understanding that 99% of what is to be found on the web is just utter crap...:bs:

[Calo]

Drivers hit 200km/h on highway

06.01.06

Dunedin police are appealing for public help to target speedsters on the city's Southern Motorway, after drivers have been nabbed travelling at more than 200km/h.

"If we find there's a car we're getting multiple calls about, we can go and target the offenders," Southern Highway Patrol head Senior Sergeant Andrew Burns said yesterday.

He was speaking a day after a 16-year-old youth was arrested for travelling at 209km/h on the motorway.

The teenager, who had a 16-year-old female passenger, was driving his parents' car, a late-model BMW with a V8 engine, on roads slick with light rain.

"It's just patently dangerous ... it's mind-boggling a 16-year-old driving a car like that," Mr Burns said.

The youth was charged with driving at a dangerous speed, which has a maximum penalty of three months' prison, a $4500 fine and a mandatory disqualification for six months.

He was referred to Youth Aid as a starting point, but the penalty he could face was "very similar" to that an adult would, said Mr Burns.

Police are unable to impound vehicles for excessive speed.

A few months ago, two cars were spotted racing on the motorway at an "absolutely insane" 230km/h in peak traffic.

The vehicles were identified as belonging to a Christchurch company, but it had not supplied details of the drivers, and was being charged for not supplying details, which carried a maximum fine of $10,000, Mr Burns said.

"That's two travelling over 200km/h that we've found in two months, so there will be others we haven't had people there for.

"We're going to be more creative in how we police that area, and we have one or two options up our sleeves," he said.

"The biggest problem is we can't be there 24-7; we can't task people to look after a 3km or 5km stretch of highway and nowhere else.

"The thing that concerns us is at those sort of speeds, if something goes wrong your chances of survival are negligible."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10362588

Good to see there's no mention of bikers. :whistle:

[scumdog]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10362588

Good to see there's no mention of bikers. :whistle:

Except the one up near Cromwell (RIP) where "speed is believed to be a factor"

And you forgot to mention the other dick-head in Oamaru that approached a T-intersection in a Nissan at "speed of up to 150kph" in a 50 kph area - surprise-surprise he couldn't stop in time, went through the intersection and went end-over-end into a paddock, diriver described as "a 17-year old Oamaru man" - huh! 17-year old Oamaru retard dick-head would be a more apt desciption!!
No fatality so dang, once again the gene-pool is likely to be stuffed up.

Drive/ride safe people.

[simo]

The definition of incompetence is doing the same thing you've always done but expecting a different result.
NZ's entire Governmental ethos is one of enforcing their edicts through punitive measures.
This is compounded by a desire to choose the cheapest option in any circumstance.
Still, the tougher they get, the more people will run.

Lou hits the nail on the head.... explanation not required. However, he perhaps doesn't mention its 1% doing this shit causing the grief for the other 99%,this is where the revenue generation is, using punitive measures, don't Land Transit know it.!! - The Nazis used these meaures in WWII, when one ratbag murdered one of their troops, they punished the whole town with various measures ----its exactly the same methodology, state agencies never change.

[geoffm]

Just to throw some fuel on the fire
http://thewhig.typepad.com/the_whig/2006/01/i_can_lock_all_.html
shows that of the 400+ deaths (in 2003), only 60 odd were caused by speeding, without alchohol being a factor. Goes on to tell us what we already know about the LTSA/IRD revenue grab. Worth a read
Geoff

[miSTa]

The youth was charged with driving at a dangerous speed, which has a maximum penalty of three months' prison, a $4500 fine and a mandatory disqualification for six months.

The disqualification period seems a little light to me, if this guy gets the maximum he's back driving 3 months after getting out of jail - wheres the penalty? And perhaps more importantly the deterrant for others?

[spudchucka]

Just to throw some fuel on the fire
http://thewhig.typepad.com/the_whig/2006/01/i_can_lock_all_.html
shows that of the 400+ deaths (in 2003), only 60 odd were caused by speeding, without alchohol being a factor. Goes on to tell us what we already know about the LTSA/IRD revenue grab. Worth a read
Geoff
Speed isn't always the cause of the crash but is almost always a contributing factor. If a car loses control on new seal, crosses the centre line, crashes and kills somebody is it the fault of the new seal or the fact that the vehicle was driven too fast for those conditions? Common sense would tell you that i is a combination of both.

The point being that speed as a cause of crashes isn't really the issue, speed as a causitive / contributing factor in trauma is the real issue because regardless of why the crash happens the resulting trauma is directly linked to the velocity of the crashing vehicles.

[spudchucka]

The disqualification period seems a little light to me, if this guy gets the maximum he's back driving 3 months after getting out of jail - wheres the penalty? And perhaps more importantly the deterrant for others?
He won't get jail unless he has an extensive history of driving offences or he has killed or badly injured somebody. 6 months disq is the manadtory minimum set out in the legislation, the courts don't have a choice unless there are special circumstances.

[thehollowmen]

hey there's your answer! make cars so expensive that they have to be hired (like aeroplanes) and have the hirer vet every driver's (pilot's) logbook before handing over the keys.

and yes, i am involved in aviation.

funny, that's what norway did

their speed limit is 90 though, mostly 80 on the open road.

[thehollowmen]

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-5199379,00.html

Last year's holiday road toll was 11. This year's toll period does not end until 6 am on January 4. The worst day so far has been December 27 with 4 people killed in accidents on New Zealand's roads.
Maybe the Government and the NZ Police will get the message that their policies are not helping improve things. But I guess they will find someone else to blame for it eh?:Playnice:

Can I call bullshit?

New Zealand road deaths 1990-2005
(snip)
2003 - 461
2004 - 435
2005 - 404
Source : NZPA http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10362106

We're coming down people... and down quite fast.

[mangell6]

We're coming down people... and down quite fast.

FAST, damn speed being the cause of the road toll coming down :shifty:



There are only three "causes" of accidents, road, car and the one that is only now coming to light the "nut" behind the wheel.

It is good to see that "driver fatigue" "too fast for conditions" being listed as causes of crashes.

As SC has said speed determines the amount of trauma and carnage, which is the result that we all hear about.

This is similar to the gun argument, I have never seen a gun leap up and shoot someone or thing of its own volition, oops wrong thread - someone can start that particular "discussion" somewhere else.

Mike
A responsible for my actions person.

[inlinefour]

Can I call bullshit?


the first post was refferring to the holiday period over Xmas, not overall for the year.:weird:

[Lou Girardin]

Speed isn't always the cause of the crash but is almost always a contributing factor. If a car loses control on new seal, crosses the centre line, crashes and kills somebody is it the fault of the new seal or the fact that the vehicle was driven too fast for those conditions? Common sense would tell you that i is a combination of both.

The point being that speed as a cause of crashes isn't really the issue, speed as a causitive / contributing factor in trauma is the real issue because regardless of why the crash happens the resulting trauma is directly linked to the velocity of the crashing vehicles.

Of course speed's a contributing factor, if they didn't move they wouldn't crash. Driver incompetence is a factor in nearly every crash too, more often than not in both party's.
Reducing average speeds by 3 km/h makes not a scrap of difference to trauma.
This is all propaganda to justify the tax take. If Police and LTNZ were serious about reducing road trauma there's other effective measures that can be used.
But, they cost money.

[Lou Girardin]

Can I call bullshit?

New Zealand road deaths 1990-2005
(snip)
2003 - 461
2004 - 435
2005 - 404
Source : NZPA http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10362106

We're coming down people... and down quite fast.

Nice selection of statistics. Now show 2000 - 2002. It was low 400's then too.
While you're at it, show the reduction between 1990 - 1999. It's even more dramatic and the cops were criticised for doing nothing on the roads.

[Finn]

Nice selection of statistics. Now show 2000 - 2002. It was low 400's then too.
While you're at it, show the reduction between 1990 - 1999. It's even more dramatic and the cops were criticised for doing nothing on the roads.

Good point Lou. Stats (especially coming from the Gov) are basically worthless without comparitive analysis. Besides, I wouldn't trust jack coming from this Gov. On the international front, NZ's road toll isn't too bad at all. When comparing NZ to other countries, you must measure the road toll by kilometres travelled not per-capita.

If our roads were better, straighter and we drove newer cars, it would be even better. Enforcement of speed limits doesn't work anywhere in the world in reducing the road toll.

Interesting stat... 15% of fatalities on NZ roads are caused by drink driving. Therefore it's all the bloody sober drivers doing most of the damage. You've got a better chance of survival if you drive drunk.

Note: The above paragraph is a joke. Do not try this at home. Tests we're conducted in a controlled environment on private roads by professional alchoholics. No beer was spilled during this test.

[Lou Girardin]

Add to these facts that NZ has mind-boggling car ownership rates. Almost as many as NSW and their population is 2.500,000 more.

[thehollowmen]

Nice selection of statistics. Now show 2000 - 2002. It was low 400's then too.
While you're at it, show the reduction between 1990 - 1999. It's even more dramatic and the cops were criticised for doing nothing on the roads.

nah 2000 was mid 400s.. 455 to be exact.

I snipped because it has been coming down since before that. A little variation of one or two years platueing out isn't bad...

[What?]

Interesting stat... 15% of fatalities on NZ roads are caused by drink driving. Therefore it's all the bloody sober drivers doing most of the damage. You've got a better chance of survival if you drive drunk.

Note: The above paragraph is a joke.

Also "borrowed", eh? From a certain Mr Smith...

[spudchucka]

Of course speed's a contributing factor, if they didn't move they wouldn't crash. Driver incompetence is a factor in nearly every crash too, more often than not in both party's.
Reducing average speeds by 3 km/h makes not a scrap of difference to trauma.
This is all propaganda to justify the tax take. If Police and LTNZ were serious about reducing road trauma there's other effective measures that can be used.
But, they cost money.
Targeting speed has reduced mean speeds a lot more than 3kph over time. Even as little as four or five years ago you could go out on any stretch of highway and catch people doing 130+. Those same people are mostly pootling along under 110 now and it is very rare to catch people at high speeds on the open road. This is 100% due to policing the speed limit. People still speed around town though, no highway patrol I guess?

But I don't think speed as the cause of crashes is the major reason for targeting speed, its the trauma factor. Targeting speed is trauma reducing, thats the reason for it. The Govt gets their lovely cash kick back out of it but the cops couldn't care less about the revenue. If they got rid of instant fines for speeding tomorrow and introduced some form of non revenue based penalty the cops wouldn't change a thing in terms of targeted enforcement, the only difference would be the how the outcome effects the offending driver.

Nothing will stop the menace drivers from being idiots on the road but I agree that there is a hell of lot more that could be done if we had more insightfull leaders, (Govt & Police).

[Lou Girardin]

If this were true Spud, why did 21 die over the holiday period?
In year of such good results the toll should have been less than 11, shouldn't it?
Could it be that the toll is random and your efforts make no difference?
Could it also be that outside factors such as the spike in fuel costs reducing km's travelled has more of an effect?

[scumdog]

If this were true Spud, why did 21 die over the holiday period?
In year of such good results the toll should have been less than 11, shouldn't it?
Could it be that the toll is random and your efforts make no difference?
Could it also be that outside factors such as the spike in fuel costs reducing km's travelled has more of an effect?

Last five out of six crashes down here had SPEED as a major factor including the fatal (side by side at 150kph going over a hump in the road).

Got two paralysed kids, another with double amputations, another with rods inserted in spine and the last still in a coma from those crashes - and that's not counting those that are still hobbling/limping around the place after getting discharged from hospital.

One dick-head hit the Warehouse building at speed and took the car off the road for good - the ONLY advantage of speed in a built-up area I've seen.

The only no-speed related one was the truck hitting the bull - but i bet the bull thought the truck was going a bit fast.

Fuel costs make no difference what I've seen around here - just as many V8 XY 'coons and Commodes around as ever.

BTW All the above crashes involved Jappas - for what it's worth.

[Finn]

Also "borrowed", eh? From a certain Mr Smith...

Huh? A banana how long?

[spudchucka]

If this were true Spud, why did 21 die over the holiday period?
In year of such good results the toll should have been less than 11, shouldn't it?
Could it be that the toll is random and your efforts make no difference?
Could it also be that outside factors such as the spike in fuel costs reducing km's travelled has more of an effect?
Have I said that targeting speed is the only factor reducing the road toll? Anyone with half a brain will realise that is a complex matter involving a hell of a lot more than just the percentage the nation exceeds the speed limit by.

21 people died over the holidays because regardless of what the police do people will still behave like children behind the wheel.

All I'm saying is that speed is directly related to trauma in crashes, that is the reason that police target speed.

[madboy]

Last five out of six crashes down here had SPEED as a major factor including the fatal (side by side at 150kph going over a hump in the road).Sounds to me like DUMB was the major factor. That wasn't by chance the one of TV with the remains of an old 80s Civic? I don't doubt Spuds comments re: speed being directly related to trauma, hell even LTNZ can't beat physics, but you do dumb shit, and hello???

Targeting speed sounds like a reactive rather than a pro-active measure. Speed is directly related to the trauma that occurs as a result of the accident - yes. Reactive. I liken it to electronic stability control vs airbags. One lessens the risk of you having an accident in the first place, the other gives you a better chance of survival only WHEN the accident happens. Otherwise the airbags are completely useless.

On the bike, would you go for a quick blat down to the shops without your 1-piece leathers and back protector? Hell yes. Would you go for a blat down the shops without your brakes? I'd friggin hope not! One protects you in a crash, one stops the crash from happening.

Perhaps as a proactive measure the Govt could legislate that all new cars sold in NZ from XXXX must have ESP (or whatever acronym each manufacturer uses) as standard fitment. Then progressively tighten up on the used imports over a period of time to make them meet the same standards. And put higher specs on tyres - no retreads, no "shit" $49 special tyres. And higher standards of driver training. Over time this will all filter down into the vehicle fleet and driver pool.

Yep - there will still be dumb people. And dumb people will still kill nice ordinary sensible people. Just like they do with guns, knives and bare hands. But it's gonna be a lot easier implementing the above proactive strategies than targeting a small section of the population for extermination. The results won't be immediate... hell, I'm "rich" according to the Govt, I'm big on having a safe car for my family, but I still drive an 8 yo car. But the results will come.

[scumdog]

Sounds to me like DUMB was the major factor. That wasn't by chance the one of TV with the remains of an old 80s Civic? I don't doubt Spuds comments re: speed being directly related to trauma, hell even LTNZ can't beat physics, but you do dumb shit, and hello???


But it's hard to legislate against 'stupid' and the incidents I mentioned ALL happened because a stupid person was driving too FAST - and you can legislate against a certain amount of that.

Yep on of the cars was the old Honda, take the 'stupid' out and MAYBE they might not have gone so fast (yeah right!) but if they hadn't been going so quick there's a good chance they wouldn't have crashed and/or the injuries to bad.
Young people = "Never going to happen to ME!" and "Yeah yeah, what the hell do YOU know?"

[Grahameeboy]

But it's hard to legislate against 'stupid' and the incidents I mentioned ALL happened because a stupid person was driving too FAST - and you can legislate against a certain amount of that.

Yep on of the cars was the old Honda, take the 'stupid' out and MAYBE they might not have gone so fast (yeah right!) but if they hadn't been going so quick there's a good chance they wouldn't have crashed and/or the injuries to bad.
Young people = "Never going to happen to ME!" and "Yeah yeah, what the hell do YOU know?"

I agree you cannot legislate for stupidity.......although I suppose the new Drag Laws sort of cover that.......you can Educate (which is lacking) but then if you are stupid can you be educated....it is a tough one to solve as these things tend to be 'of the moment' and despite road toll which is all over the papers, it still goes on.......
I guess it just shows that we are human with the basic frailties......
But take away the stupidity and speed can still be safe......so the cause is stupidity and if you crash, because of stupidity, then the speed affects the outcome.......it is a roundabout debate eh

[Lou Girardin]

Last five out of six crashes down here had SPEED as a major factor including the fatal (side by side at 150kph going over a hump in the road).


Speed as a major factor?
They would have died at 100 km/h. Stupidity was the major factor, speed just ensured they were moving.
If you want trauma reduction, legislate for safer cars, build safer roads.
What that? It costs money rather than earns it?
Well we can't have that can we?

[inlinefour]

Speed as a major factor?
They would have died at 100 km/h. Stupidity was the major factor, speed just ensured they were moving.
If you want trauma reduction, legislate for safer cars, build safer roads.
What that? It costs money rather than earns it?
Well we can't have that can we?

I thought the sudden loss of speed was the problem when it came to physical trauma?:spudwhat:

[scumdog]

Speed as a major factor?
They would have died at 100 km/h. Stupidity was the major factor, speed just ensured they were moving.
If you want trauma reduction, legislate for safer cars, build safer roads.
What that? It costs money rather than earns it?
Well we can't have that can we?

You'll never get cars or roads safe enough, they'll still kill each other just the same......they'll find a way.

[Lou Girardin]

You'll never get cars or roads safe enough, they'll still kill each other just the same......they'll find a way.

Well, why try and deny Darwins theory?
I say let 'em die and it's one less dickhead liable to take me out.

[scumdog]

Well, why try and deny Darwins theory?
I say let 'em die and it's one less dickhead liable to take me out.

The catch is Lou, they may well take YOU out too....

[Lou Girardin]

The catch is Lou, they may well take YOU out too....

Haven't yet in 38 years of 'enthusiastic' driving/riding.
*touches huge lump of wood*
(only the good die young)

[spudchucka]

Well, why try and deny Darwins theory?
I say let 'em die and it's one less dickhead liable to take me out.
Thats fine until they darwin somebody that didn't deserve it. If all they did was drive at high speed into solid concrete walls there wouldn't be a problem but it seems that the idiots cars are magnetically attracted to cars driven by innocent folk who are just trying to get from point A to point B.

[Lou Girardin]

Thats fine until they darwin somebody that didn't deserve it. If all they did was drive at high speed into solid concrete walls there wouldn't be a problem but it seems that the idiots cars are magnetically attracted to cars driven by innocent folk who are just trying to get from point A to point B.

You know as well as I do that both party's contribute to many accidents, if only in a small way.
Like the people that insist on hugging the white line, it doesn't leave them any options when someone else crosses it.

[madboy]

Harsh call, Lou. I agree to an extent, there are plenty of "innocent" incompetents out there that wouldn't have the skills or common sense to "avoid" an accident. But at the end of the day it's not their fault Jimmy Numbnuts comes flying over a blind corner on the wrong side of the road.

Competence and defensive driving skills may avoid the accident, but I'd be inclined to put 98% on Mr Numbnuts and 2% on Mr Innocent.

Most people, me included, will be pretty quick to take a swipe at bastard drivers who don't indicate when lane changing. But you could also suggest that the rider should have known better and not put themselves in that position by being more defensive in their riding style.

[Lou Girardin]

Competence and defensive driving skills may avoid the accident, but I'd be inclined to put 98% on Mr Numbnuts and 2% on Mr Innocent.


Probably about right.
But shouldn't the basics be taught? Things like maintaining a safety cushion, looking 12 seconds ahead. Even really basic stuff like correct driving position.
The number of driving instructors that used to come in with their students jammed up against the wheel, even sitting on cushions FFS, would amaze you.

[Finn]

*touches huge lump of wood*


Ah stop bragging Lou! Besides, don't you think that's inappropriate behavour while on the internet? There are young people on here too!

[madboy]

I'm with you on the education... or lack of... in NZ. Driving is a right, not a privilege :msn-wink: