Bring on those brakes!

[Zed]

Brake usage- I used to predominately use my rear brake for slowing down because it felt more convenient than having to grab the front brake lever...nowadays I dogmatically use both brakes in unison and am trying to improve my technique around the twisty's by using front first & balancing out with the rear to better control the movement of the bike.

What is your braking style/preference? :bye:


Zed

[Edge]

I use the front only.If you use the rear alot slowing down at lights etc you will find you,ll use the rear brake when you want to avoid a moment,thats when you need the front to pull you up fast.It,s a mater of programming the old brian to do things when theres no time to think.

[DEATH_INC.]

Mostly the front on the Gixx,on the 12 I used the front for stopping and the rear for turning (backing in...) and on the turbo I use everything I can find :eek5:

[FzerozeroT]

Front only, bike is so light that even with moderate braking the back wheel slides with a little brake application

[wkid_one]

Never used the rear brake unless pillion was on

[riffer]

Rear brake is either non-existent or locks up the wheel. Hence, it's not used.

[Holy Roller]

Rear brake is either non-existent or locks up the wheel. Hence, it's not used.
I've not locked up the rear on the XV yet. Usually use both with more front as I slow to a stop. For a fast stop it's down throught the gears using the engine and huge amounts of both. The brakes arn't that good compared to a bandit, had to adjust riding distance to compensate for stopping distance. :blank: I funny how you think the brakes are OK untill you have someone else to compare them to.

[Jackrat]

Depends on situation,I used to think I used my front brake a lot but after riding with no rear for a bit I realise I use the rear heaps more than I imagined.Brakes are for round town riding,stopping an starting stuff,the open road don,t need em'.
Learn to dodge an use ya' gear box,many funs :ride:

[Motu]

I don't think about brakes much - I just use them.My riding is so varied to have one braking style is not appropriate...on sealed roads I use more front and just use the rear to set the balance,on gravel it's the reverse,and I swap around as the situation merits.Don't get stuck in a groove...it could be the wrong one at the wrong time.

[Aucker]

Never used the rear brake unless pillion was on
Suppose it's up the each rider but the rear brakes are made for a purpose. I try and use both together especially when stopping quick.

[RiderInBlack]

Surpised that you use predominately rear brakes on you bike Zed. They are set-up with better brakes in the front than the back as that is where all the weight goes when you brake hard (on these type of bikes).
I do vary according to the conditions, but mainly front with a little back for most occasions and do engine brake (with front for balance).

"on gravel it's the reverse,and I swap around as the situation merits.Don't get stuck in a groove...it could be the wrong one at the wrong time." Motu

Thanks for that, Motu:not: . I live down the end of a metal road. I'll try to remember that if I have to stop for a horse in a hurry:msn-wink: Sorry just yanking you chain. Good advise. Think I'll check if I am doing that next time I take the bike out.

[Two Smoker]

Suppose it's up the each rider but the rear brakes are made for a purpose. I try and use both together especially when stopping quick.
Shit yes, use both, Front progressive and rear for balance (unless doing stoppies, you don't want the rear overtaking the front.......) As for gravel on a road bike i always have my rear brake on a tad, that justs stops the rear floating and bouncing around, much smoother:niceone:

[wkid_one]

Honestly - I like to ride without using the brakes too much anyway - prefer using gear selection. Given I typically set the bike up before the corner and accelerate through it - I don't use the rear brake to balance the bike - but the throttle in the corner

But then - what do I know.

[Indiana_Jones]

I use my front about 80% of the time, I should use both really :D
But when I use the back brake I forget to take my foot off it and here I'm going with the engine reving high when I'm in like 3rd "WTF? Oh Yea....."

-Indy

[Zed]

Surpised that you use predominately rear brakes on you bike Zed.
That was in the past, before I realised that it wasn't the best method for me.

[Andrew]

In my recent handling skills course I was taught to apply the rear brake fractionally before the front brake. Reason? By applying the rear brake first the momentum or weight is shifted to the rear of the bike loading up the back spring. You then have maximum use of the front brake to use it effectivly as possible without the rear coming up off the ground. Hence quicker theoretical stopping distance.

[spudchucka]

Pretty much 90% front brake most of the time. The rear gets more use on gravel and at low speed.

But really everyone should get a decent V-Twin and just engine brake everywhere. I've riden with heaps of inline four riders who get spooked cos the brake lights never come on on my bike (because of engine braking) and they find they are going in too hot.

[spudchucka]

In my recent handling skills course I was taught to apply the rear brake fractionally before the front brake. Reason? By applying the rear brake first the momentum or weight is shifted to the rear of the bike loading up the back spring. You then have maximum use of the front brake to use it effectivly as possible without the rear coming up off the ground. Hence quicker theoretical stopping distance.


Makes good sense that does!!

[Skyryder]

Go too http://www.msgroup.org/DISCUSS.asp

Read numbers 1 Highside Dynamics; 29 Braking Method; 39 handling Curves; 64 Brakes; 128 Braking in Curves.

There is also some additional stuff that may be of interest to you all.

Skyryder :grouphug:

[fzr400rr]

When approaching an orange light that's turning red, I find it's best to use the throttle to brake......

....to break the speed limit as I blow through it :Police: :no:

[RiderInBlack]

Go too http://www.msgroup.org/DISCUSS.asp

Read numbers 1 Highside Dynamics; 29 Braking Method; 39 handling Curves; 64 Brakes; 128 Braking in Curves.

There is also some additional stuff that may be of interest to you all.

Skyryder :grouphug:F*cken Awesome Mate.:2thumbsup The info in that site rocks:Punk: Thanks heaps Skyryder:niceone:

[jrandom]

After my first year on the FXR, I was using the rear brake quite a bit, trailing it into corners and all, getting on it pretty hard when stopping. Not a good idea on such a skittery wee bike, I crashed after locking the back in the wet. If I'd stuck to the front brake I may have stayed upright that time. I suspect 90% front brake does the job well for most bikes and most roads. Dirt and gravel are quite different naturally, you're not going to get the sudden breakaway as the rear loses traction since it's probably already sliding... :Punk:

Hmmmm... on that note, I dunno what the Honda linked-brake system is like to ride with. Anyone here own(ed) or ridden a 'bird, ST1100 etc and care to comment? Don't the later-model VFR800s have it too?

[aff-man]

Front and rear simultaneously when heavy breaking required to settle the bike. During commuting mainly front though touching on back when i feel like it. When open road riding definatley both to settle bike in corners :niceone:

[White trash]

Depends entirley on what I'm riding.

Never touch the back brake on the Gixxer. Don't use anything but on the Harley. Unless it's a V-Rod, not bad brakes those ones!

[Motu]

[QUOTE=jrandom
Hmmmm... on that note, I dunno what the Honda linked-brake system is like to ride with. Anyone here own(ed) or ridden a 'bird, ST1100 etc and care to comment? Don't the later-model VFR800s have it too?[/QUOTE]

When I first came across the Guzzi linked brake system I was full scorn - no way could this thing work,specially on wet or gravel roads,you need to be able to use both brake to get full control.After spending a fair bit of time on a mates S3 and a V50 I was kinda impressed and had to go back on my words - you could stomp as hard as you liked on the rear brake pedal and this thing just hauled in,forget the front lever which used the other disc.Never moved with super hard braking in the wet,but never got to use it in gravel.This was in around 1980 and I dunno how old the bikes were,but I don't think the concept has changed much.

[Two Smoker]

The linked braking system is supposed to be brilliant in the dry on the road, it keeps the bike very flat rather than diving as on most bikes, but the down fall is if u take it to a track day you can't trail brake. How bout Blackbird says some words........?

[MrMelon]

So how does trail braking work?

I always just use the front brake on mine unless i'm going pretty slowly. Whenever I've tried using the rear in combination with the front it's locked up on me. :/

[dangerous]

So how does trail braking work?

I think that this refures to adding a littly rear brake, when accerating hard out of a corner so as to keep the rear in control (from lighting up)

As for the linked brakes.......emmm don't like em, Having said that I've only ridden Guzzi's with this set up and I think that given a bit of time you would get used to them and find them bloody marvless.

The way I brake: I recon that the frount is for stopping and the rear is for maintaining control. This is why I realey use the back unless I'm getting into trouble. However remember that I ride Twins and therefore there is a lot of engine breaking which I use a lot, 1-2 3rds of the rev range (but not in 1st on a V2 thats very bad)

[Skyryder]

If you watch the racers you will see that they brake very hard as they approach the corner. The forks dip as they compress with load. This is before they lean into the corner. No matter what if you have to brake while you are leaning the bike over you have come in too fast. :Oops: Now most of the time you can get out of this without too much trouble but if you are useing your brakes and you have to make an evasive manouvre while leaning into a curve, this is where things can go wrong fast. :sweatdrop I either brake or use the engine to control the approach depending on the speed and sharpness of the bend then power out. :calm:

I had a couple of near misses in my youth and believe me there is nothing more scary than being out of control at speed.

Skyryder

[laRIKin]

I Guzzi linked brakes, started in 1975 on the 850T3 and then on the
1975 S3.
I like the system, because if you over cook a corner, or start to bobble in a
corner, you can put on alittle foot brake (which means that you also get
some front) and the bike just squats. You will get no wobble and can actully
give the bike some more gas and you will get around the corner save and sound.
It does take some time to get use to. I changed one of my Guzzi to a normal
system, when racing. And then changed it back to a linked system when I got
use to it on my road going Guzzi.
It has be reported to be, by at least afew testers, to be the best braking
system untill ABS.
I think that the Honda system is just over the top.
As it does the same thing as the Guzzi,s does with a simple proportioning
valve. But it needs alsorts of senses and a computer.

[Lou Girardin]

I may be wrong, but I thought trail breaking was feathering the brakes as you enter the corner. Gradually easing off brake pressure as you lean further.
Lou

[Two Smoker]

I may be wrong, but I thought trail breaking was feathering the brakes as you enter the corner. Gradually easing off brake pressure as you lean further.
Lou
Lou's right, u dont need to feather the brake out of the corner, that's what the wrist is for...

[dangerous]

Lou's right, u dont need to feather the brake out of the corner, that's what the wrist is for...

That maybe so on a 150, just this weekend gone I was riding fairly hard around the hills on my VTR1000
On one corner I wacked the taps open rather hard and as I was still leant over a fair way the rear lite up on me and steped out so rather than close the taps and risk locking it up (remember its a V2) I addad a little rear brake which means the rear stops spinning but you still accalarate loosing no time and not biffing the bike.

Watch or ask a track racer this and see what they have to say.

[DEATH_INC.]

A touch of rear brake as you let off the front(not too hard though)will normally help to settle the bike too,especially if yer a bit hot.....

[Two Smoker]

That maybe so on a 150, just this weekend gone I was riding fairly hard around the hills on my VTR1000
On one corner I wacked the taps open rather hard and as I was still leant over a fair way the rear lite up on me and steped out so rather than close the taps and risk locking it up (remember its a V2) I addad a little rear brake which means the rear stops spinning but you still accalarate loosing no time and not biffing the bike.

Watch or ask a track racer this and see what they have to say.
Cheers for the info dangerous, the great thing is u learn so much from this site as i am, but yea i trail sometimes into the corner, and slam it open on the corner due to the lack of power, i would think on a powerful bikee like your own you would do that, i stand corrected:niceone:

[130wide]

Death_Inc get some Premier PH26 brake pads for your Turbo, these are the best pads I've found and stop the Turbo pretty quick. Had my brother hitting the tank :sweatdrop when we swapped bikes from his ZX12R to my Turbo.

As for brakes, front only for me, on option.................

[Lou Girardin]

Dangerous is right, but I don't think it's called trail breaking. How about traction control?
Lou

[White trash]

Dangerous is right, but I don't think it's called trail breaking. How about traction control?
Lou

How about just using a little less right wrist? Probably do some nice damage to pads and disc if you made a habit of that sort of thing
:confused2

[wkid_one]

However remember that I ride Twins and therefore there is a lot of engine breaking which I use a lot, 1-2 3rds of the rev range (but not in 1st on a V2 thats very bad)Must say tho - having gone from the VTR to the R1 - the engine braking is similar between the two. I actually smacked my nuts on the tank more often on the R1 than the VTR when changing down gears. To me it appears to be a fallacy that VTwins have gob loads more engine braking.

As for 'trailing your rear' - I prefer to use throttle control.

Here is one for all the bike fanatics. When you accelerate does the rear squat down or stand up???

Do a little test. Park your bike with the front wheel against a wall and give it a little throttle - for some of you you will be surprised that the rear of the bike actually lifts under acceleration.

[White trash]

Must say tho - having gone from the VTR to the R1 - the engine braking is similar between the two. I actually smacked my nuts on the tank more often on the R1 than the VTR when changing down gears. To me it appears to be a fallacy that VTwins have gob loads more engine braking.

Cycle world I think, did a test on a number of bikes to find which had the highest ENGINE FRICTION. Roll along on all bikes at maximum revs in first gear then chop the throttle.
Guess what stopped fastest..........you guessed it, R1. By a considerable margin over the V-Twins too.

Slowest was RZ500.

[RiderInBlack]

Here is one for all the bike fanatics. When you accelerate does the rear squat down or stand up???

Do a little test. Park your bike with the front wheel against a wall and give it a little throttle - for some of you you will be surprised that the rear of the bike actually lifts under acceleration.
Call me stupid:confused: Wkid One, but would not the force of the bike trying to go fordward with the front wheel against the wall:brick: cause the forks to compress? Thereby lowering the front:not: opposed to the rear:moon:lifting?:confused:

[Jackrat]

Must say tho - having gone from the VTR to the R1 - the engine braking is similar between the two. I actually smacked my nuts on the tank more often on the R1 than the VTR when changing down gears. To me it appears to be a fallacy that VTwins have gob loads more engine braking.

As for 'trailing your rear' - I prefer to use throttle control.

Here is one for all the bike fanatics. When you accelerate does the rear squat down or stand up???

Do a little test. Park your bike with the front wheel against a wall and give it a little throttle - for some of you you will be surprised that the rear of the bike actually lifts under acceleration.

Now do it without a brick wall in front of you. :doh:
Even better give me a ring so i can pop round an watch,then do it at full throttle on my XR.You will find out for yourself which way the front end goes.
Shaft drive bikes tend to lift the rear under very aggresive throttle but nothing else I've ever riden.

[Coldkiwi]

yer.. the wall might have something to do with it eh!! (try it on a straight road going the right direction so you can see your shadow next to you wkid).. different answer :)

oh.. and if anyone hasn't tried the 'hit the rear just before the front' - give it a go. not so noticeable below 100kph but if you're hustling on the open road and trying to knock off 30 or more kmhr for a corner you might be pleasently surprised how planted the whoel show becomes. the downside is that I find it hard to get at the rear brake sometimes if I'm shifting around (maybe I ought to by a BMW or ride with a plank strapped to my bacK?)

[wkid_one]

Actually - this comment is directly from the Race Tech Website.....I tend to believe them. And I am to qualify this by saying it is only immediately following application of the throttle prior to the working of the suspension. Hence why bikes tend to wheel spin due to quick application of the throttle instantenously 'freezing' the suspension until it can react to the acceleration.

This is actually a basis of the principals of weight transferance you are talking about and a laymans explanation of this can be found in the Owners Manual of Gran Turismo of all places if you are interested. Simplist explanation I have ever read.

The problem lies in that suspension can't react instantanously to your throttle/braking inputs and it needs time to adjust.

How many of you have set your bikes static suspension up with you on it - static sag front and rear?? If you haven't you are doing you and your bike a disservice.

Try this site for setting your bike up: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0006_susp/

The better your bike is set up the less you will find you use the brakes and the throttle will be in a better position to control the balance of the bike.

Ever tried riding your favourite bit of road with NO BRAKES......no not a joke - but a good test. Or with the front or rear only? Teaches you a lot about your bike and what works where. Or try picking ONE SPEED to ride the road on and keep to it through your corners. Kinda freaky blasting in to your favourite corner 20kph faster than usual fighting off the urge to grab a fist full of brake. Probably why I fell off a bit I suppose - I liked testing my limits and playing stupid games like that

I used the front only on the R1 because I had set it up accordingly - the rear was next to fucken useless anyway, the Yam's have some of the best front picks of any bike (mine had the orange callipers), the bike only weighs 170kg, the engine braking was wicked also, and the bike's throttle worked well to balance the bike.

At the end of the day - brake application in a corner is largely scorned upon anyway....you should have set the bikes suspension up using brakes prior to the corner and be gradually accelerating your way through the corner.:scooter:

[Motu]

Try riding with no brakes - speedway or flat track...no problem,brakes are more a danger than a help.Our local dirt track had a sweeper and a hairpin,I could ride almost as fast with or without brakes

[wkid_one]

Motu - when flattracking/dirt etc don't you just control with your arse end and throttle? I never done it so don't know

[Hoon]

Yes the "No brakes drill" as mentioned by Keith Code in his Soft Science book is a great training tool.

I found that I was over braking before some turns (esp the hairpin and going into turn #2 at Puke) and as a result had to accelerate a little before turning in or continue rolling towards the corner and take the turn at a lower than desirable corner speed (both methods losing precious time).

So I tried the no brakes method which basically forces you to concentrate totally on getting the perfect turn entry speed without stressing about braking in time (corner speed is everything on my top-endless 250). The end result is that you become a better judge of speed and can better duplicate that entry speed consistently lap after lap instead of relying on the "brake at this marker, this hard, until this location" method of judging your entry speed.

Now I found that if I overbrake while under hard braking and I slow to my target entry speed sooner than expected, I immediately realise this and will back off the brakes sooner whereas before I wouldn't have noticed until I had finished braking just before the turn and had just begun turning in.

[wkid_one]

Ho Hoon - it was you that keep missing the first left hander at Puke and kept coming to visit Slim and I on the tyre by Castrol wasn't it?

[Motu]

Motu - when flattracking/dirt etc don't you just control with your arse end and throttle? I never done it so don't know

I'm sure if OwlMorris is lurking he could explain it in detail in 3 pages - for flattracking the bike is thrown sideways to scrub off speed,sliding both wheels until the apex,then the turn is squared off with a powerslide exit...it's a fight the whole way and never feels natural no matter how well you set the bike up - but the Owl has ridden a Trackmaster and says it did it all by itself.One of the few people in NZ to master the art.

I have never ridden a speedway bike myself,but it's a whole different ball game,the bike being designed from the outset to be sideways,the bike is tossed into the turn with the power on al la a rally car,the rear wheel must be kept spinning the whole time,if it hooks up in a corner it's game over.That's why they don't ride at the Springs anymore,the track is super grippy clay.

It's possible to powerslide a flattracker around like a speedway bike,but not as fast,I have done it on a well set up flattracker,just to see how early I could get the power on.Actualy I will tell you a story of it being done,just to show how guts and determination can win through.

Bryce Subritzky was the force behind Rosebank Speedway and he helped get the stock bike or flattrack class going - we used to ride all sorts of shit down there back then,street bikes and motocrossers,the only rules were no knobs and no brakes.So someone has an RM250 or something that was ''unriderable'' just a killer bike.Crap says Bryce,I could ride that thing around there,you guys just don't know how to ride.OK then you silly old fart,have a go! So out he goes - he was only a little guy and really ''old'' back then,the handlebars were level with his chin - he drops the bike in the first corner,picks it up and drops it again,this went on and on and was really embarassing,it was obvious that he just couldn't handle it.We were turning away because we just couldn't bear to watch this silly old fool make an idiot of himself - but hey! there he is just powering around like a speedway bike! WOW! that shut everyone up,well,we gave him some bloody good applause...but he sure earned a lot of respect from me for that.

[Grumpy]

I used to use both brakes all the time until I did a track day at Taupo. Brian Bernard was there giving us a few tips on track craft etc..

He was saying that he's never changed a rear brake pad since he started racing as he never uses the rear brake.

Since then I started to try using the rear only and found it pretty good. I was riding my TL then. Since I've had my GSX1400 I found it better to go back to using both since it's a shitload heavier than the TL. Locking the rear wheel isn't such an issue.

[pete376403]

My bro-in-law made a lot of alloy parts for Bruce Ansteys TZ250, including a rear disc. Weighed next to nothing, and was only ever used in scruitineering.
He said he *never* used the rear brake on the track

[Hoon]

Ho Hoon - it was you that keep missing the first left hander at Puke and kept coming to visit Slim and I on the tyre by Castrol wasn't it?

Yeah yeah ok :) But that was my first track day back after sorting a major problem with my bike and as a result it ran ten times better. I could carry an extra 20kph around Jenian but unfortunately the fix didn't make my braking or steering any quicker so it took a few sessions to get use to the extra speed.

[White trash]

My bro-in-law made a lot of alloy parts for Bruce Ansteys TZ250, including a rear disc. Weighed next to nothing, and was only ever used in scruitineering.
He said he *never* used the rear brake on the track

Funny you should say that. When I was 17, I was at a race meeting at Manfeild, organised by Vic club. Me and a mate volunteered for flag marshaling and were posted in "Coke".

Mr Ainstey, leading the F1 race by a huge margin, was lifting the rear wheel of the TZ 2-3 inches off the track EVERY SINGLE LAP at 140mph!

Ever since then, Bruce has been my favourite local racer to watch. (Don't tell The Peoples Hero I said that) :)

[Des Truction]

EYE always use both ,but vary the presure automaticly . JUST GO WITH THE FLOW :calm:

[Des Truction]

EYE always use both ,but vary the presure automaticly . JUST GO WITH THE FLOW :calm: :whocares:

[pete376403]

Funny you should say that. When I was 17, I was at a race meeting at Manfeild, organised by Vic club. Me and a mate volunteered for flag marshaling and were posted in "Coke".

Mr Ainstey, leading the F1 race by a huge margin, was lifting the rear wheel of the TZ 2-3 inches off the track EVERY SINGLE LAP at 140mph!

Ever since then, Bruce has been my favourite local racer to watch. (Don't tell The Peoples Hero I said that) :)
Bruce has awesome balance - he had a ProFlex "Animal" mountainbike which he would ride around the pits on the back wheel just to psych opponents out. I believe he's over in UK at present, hasn't been back here for a while.

[laRIKin]

All that I would like to add (my 2 cents worth) is.
When I was road racing we did not use the rear brake, mainly because the
wheel was in the air, so it would do very little to help you slow down.
And if it was on the ground, there was not enough weight to do much good.

In saying that, the rear brake must still have its place.
On and off the race track, because if it didn,t.
Why did the great Mick Doohan, go to all of the trouble to get the famous,
thumb brake for the rear wheel.

I think that the rear brake is sometimes over looked, because it can be harder
to control because of the small amount of extra braking that it can give.

And it is one more thing to worry about, when you are on YOUR limit going
around a corner.

[wkid_one]

In saying that, the rear brake must still have its place.
On and off the race track, because if it didn,t.
Why did the great Mick Doohan, go to all of the trouble to get the famous,
thumb brake for the rear wheel.
Modern track riders use the rear brake to back the bike in to the corner

[dangerous]

Modern track riders use the rear brake to back the bike in to the corner

Say what?....... modern bikes now have reverse plz explain? :confused:

[laRIKin]

Modern track riders use the rear brake to back the bike in to the corner

So the rear brake does have a use? :Pokey: :wavey:
But seriously mate, it is also use to settle the rear end by dragging the brake.
And as dangerous has said to be use as a traction control, when thing go a
little a stray.
My I also be as bold to say that you do not need max braking on all corners.
And by useing the front only it upsets the steering geometry more.
And Honda spent alot of money on their linked braking system and more than once it failed costing Aaron Slight a good finish.
But they perservered with it and now it's on street bikes.
So again dual braking must have it's place, that is using both brakes.
I know that I use alot more rear brake in the wet, as I would not like too lock
up the front wheel, but could live with a little rear end lock up.

The main reason I posted, is because so many people were saying that
(in around about way) that the rear brake had no use at all.

I disagree, as I think that it has it's place and would not be with out one.

[RiderInBlack]

So the rear brake does have a use? :Pokey: :wavey:

The main reason I posted, is because so many people were saying that
(in around about way) that the rear brake had no use at all.

I disagree, as I think that it has it's place and would not be with out one.
Ya, amen to that one:not: . Found out how much work the back brakes did after the back brake pads crumbled on the Old VFR750 on a Saturday ride. Had to ride back to Auckland from Tauranga Sunday without touching the back brake peddle (had pried the pad of the disc to stop more damage):sweatdrop :sweatdrop

[Motoracer]

Back brake? Aren't they there for 12s? :devil2: (not that I am skilled enough to do such things)

[Coldkiwi]

yeah, its not so much the braking power that comes from the rear thats useful as the level of control and stability affords on the entry and way through a corner

its also a little bit handy if something horrid happens to your front baking system!! especially on sports bikes with linked front brakes, if you have a hydraulics problem, it can often affect both calipers and leave you with nothing but the rear