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Mr. Peanut
8th January 2006, 11:23
Im probably gonna rub a few peoples fur the wrong way here? Oh well :devil2:

When was the last time you had a chat with a policeman in maori? Or saw a road sign written in maori?
My point is, a person who can speak maori, is still going to need to understand warning signs in english and what a police officer/road worker/other road user is saying to them, to be a safe road user.

Realistically, how exactly does one fuction within normal society without a simple understanding of english? If New Zealand was a bilingual society I wouldn't have a problem with it, in fact I'd probably be quite proud of my ablility to speak the native tongue.

So why do we have drivers licence tests in maori? For fun?? Is this not a gross waste of resources for P.C. 20th century bullshite?

It seems like an awful lot of bother for someone who has made a choice to speak maori exclusively, without learning basic english?? :mellow: And thats before you have to find a bilingual tester for thier restricted licence... :confused:

Mr. Peanut
8th January 2006, 11:35
It just looks like an exercise in PR :bs: to me, so bleeding hearts can sleep better at night... :sleep:

MSTRS
8th January 2006, 11:42
It seems like an awful lot of bother for someone who has made a choice to speak maori exclusively, without learning basic english?? :mellow: And thats before you have to find a bilingual tester for thier restricted licence... :confused:
Watch how well they speak/understand English if their benefit gets threatened.
And where should it end?? I took French thru school (last century:laugh: ) and my dear one took Latin.......

Mr. Peanut
8th January 2006, 11:45
Watch how well they speak/understand English if their benefit gets threatened

Don't think I wanna go there, plenty of europeans on the benefit... like half my extended family ;)

Phurrball
8th January 2006, 11:46
Like it or not, Te Reo is an official language of this country. Just be thankful that we aren't in Switzerland or suchlike (4 official languages = French, Italian, German and Romansch - the latter probably used by a lesser proportion than Te Reo is in NZ!)

Have a look at Wales for an example of a resurgent culture and language (Yep - even their roadsigns and probably their licence tests too!).

I personally hope we are heading down a similar route to Wales. It is cultural arrogance to assume we can get by in this world with only English. A second language should be compulsory in schools IMHO (Not necessarily Maori - although the natural uptake would be increased under a compulsory second language scenario) Ironically people would become much better at using the much-abused English language should this come to pass, due to actually having to THINK about the mechanics of whichever language they use - not just using it because it's their mothertongue and it's all they know.

Get over it. If nothing else the proportion of Maori is increasing in population terms, and tikanga and the Maori language are hardly likely to fade into insignificance based on this fact alone (Never mind the current renassiance).

My $0.02. Now, back to hugs and smiles and going out for a ride...I would - were my bike not 1500km away :weep:

/edit/ Have just noted our age in your profile Mr Peanut. Am I safe in assuming that you do not in fact speak another language? Just curious...get on your bike bruvver and get some life experience learning some words of a non-english language while you're at it. :chase:

Mr. Peanut
8th January 2006, 11:50
I personally hope we are heading down a similar route to Wales. It is cultural arrogance to assume we can get by in this world with only English. A second language should be compulsory in schools IMHO

But surely that means that people speaking maori exclusively, should be required to learn english, if we are to become a true bilingual country? Does the fact we become bilingual mean we should print everything twice? I think not :no:

MSTRS
8th January 2006, 11:53
A second language should be compulsory in schools IMHO (Not necessarily Maori - )
Maori is now, at primary level at least AND it's cross-curricular.

Phurrball
8th January 2006, 12:00
But surely that means that people speaking maori exclusively, should be required to learn english, if we are to become a true bilingual country? Does the fact we become bilingual mean we should print everything twice? I think not :no:

Yes to your first point. All should have a basic working knowledge of the official languages of the country. We're getting there. Slowly. Very slowly. The dominant political and social hegemony of the last couple of hundred years have resulted in a massive skew in favour of English - like beatings issued in schools to children 'jabbering' in Maori. Imagine being beaten for speaking your own language! Thank fark we're moving on and are in more enlightened times. And why not have two languages in the case of any official documents? Consider my Swiss case in point. Official docs in four languages. We have it easy!

Phurrball
8th January 2006, 12:02
Maori is now, at primary level at least AND it's cross-curricular.

A step in the right direction IMHO. (Oops - is that the sound of fur being rubbed back the other way...:devil2:)

Mr. Peanut
8th January 2006, 12:12
Because the money could be spent on things that actually matter. :pinch:
I don't think I'd be terribly offended if I was maori and government documents weren't printed in Te Reo... It was never a written language anyway. It's not just the document, its all the people they have to employ to understand and translate it, a huge adminstrative cost.

With the money you saved you could give schools extra funding for comprehensive maori culture lessons... etc etc.;)

marty
8th January 2006, 12:14
or like canada, where everything is printed out in about 6 different languages.

or south auckland.....:)

Phurrball
8th January 2006, 12:26
Because the money could be spent on things that actually matter. :pinch:
I don't think I'd be terribly offended if I was maori and government documents weren't printed in Te Reo... It was never a written language anyway. It's not just the document, its all the people they have to employ to understand and translate it, a huge adminstrative cost.

With the money you saved you could give schools extra funding for comprehensive maori culture lessons... etc etc.;)

[Place holder - will rant more later. Must return trailer IRL now.]

Your latter point is a good one. Buuuuuutttt...you can't just pay lip service to official language status.

Karma
8th January 2006, 12:28
Well if we're going by the number of people then we'd all have to learn Chinese, with approx 1,223,307,000 people speaking the language.

onearmedbandit
8th January 2006, 12:29
Okay maybe in countries like Switzerland speaking languages like French, Itallian, German etc offer some benefit as your business may take you to these countries or you may have to deal with a client or whatever from one of these countries. So can someone explain to me the benefit of learning Maori? Serious question. I would much rather my daughter to learn French, German, Japanesse, Chinese then Maori. Which she is learning and is enjoying.

James Deuce
8th January 2006, 12:37
Bigoted rant
Yes let's cement the ignorance of the average urban Kiwi in concrete.

What's the point of teaching Maori? "It was never a written language anyway". Neither were the prototypical languages that resulted in English. A big chunk of our grammar is derived from non-literate peasants, speaking mostly in the vernacular. Maori is a written language NOW, thanks to the efforts of some very clever people over the last 170 years.

Things change. Get over it. Darwin said something along the lines that it isn't the fittest organism that survives, but the one most adaptable to change.

This attitude is typical of the hardheaded descendants of the European colonial wave that resists integrating the best of all cultures that live in NZ. "I don't understand it, and it never did anything for me, so it must be crap."

Within the next 150 years all people born in NZ will have a scrap of Maori DNA, and most likely some Asian DNA as well.

We may as well ban the teaching of history because it never did anything for me, economics too for the same reason. Oh yeah, that algebra and calculus is too hard as well, lets ditch that. Why is physical science SOOOO much more important to the Post-Modern, European/US derived mindset? Why is human culture viewed as a "lesser" science?

Without historians and anthropologists, theologists and philosophers, physicists, chemists, politicians, and soldiers would never have asked themselves the question, "Yes I can destroy this village/town/country/culture/continent, but SHOULD I?"

These little differences are what make us a vital, growing, learning, global culture.

It is important to learn ANY second language as a child because it establishes a mindset that enables you to learn more, to investigate and evaluate the syntax of a language medium, so you can exhange ideas with other people.

Mr. Peanut
8th January 2006, 12:44
Maori is cool, it gives us a sense of cultural identity. So it is worth learning. But really, what proportion of kiwis speak maori exclusively? Would it not just be cheaper to hire them a translator, if and when needed? It has been estimated that around 50,000 people of maori decent speak maori fluently. Thats 1.25% of the population. Of that 1.25% how many cannot speak english?

Does this justity spending vast sums of money on bilingual documents, most of which are not needed? If you were maori where would you stand? Wouldn't you rather have better funding for schools and education?

:confused:

Mr. Peanut
8th January 2006, 12:54
What's the point of teaching Maori? "It was never a written language anyway". Neither were the prototypical languages that resulted in English....Things change. Get over it. Darwin said something along the lines that it isn't the fittest organism that survives, but the one most adaptable to change....Within the next 150 years all people born in NZ will have a scrap of Maori DNA, and most likely some Asian DNA as well....Why is physical science SOOOO much more important to the Post-Modern, European/US derived mindset? Why is human culture viewed as a "lesser" science?... "Yes I can destroy this village/town/country/culture/continent, but SHOULD I?"....These little differences are what make us a vital, growing, learning, global culture... it establishes a mindset that enables you to learn more, to investigate and evaluate the syntax of a language medium, so you can exhange ideas with other people.

I never questioned the value of teaching maori, I support it. I think you're missing my point? nice rant though.. :corn:

ajturbo
8th January 2006, 12:55
My $0.02. Now, back to hugs and smiles and going out for a ride...I would - were my bike not 1500km away :weep:


i would be out also... but after ariving home with a slow leaking rear tyre.. i not want tha hassell.......

mstriumph
8th January 2006, 13:07
.... disregarding the entrenched opinion from either side ....... from the middle ground this question appears to be one of economics rather than the cultural validity of either [or any] language

i have lived in wales ---------- official documentation, road signs, etc in welsh and english
i have lived in south africa ------- ditto ditto afrikaans and english

as both te reo and english are the official languages of nz [and both have historical and emotional validity in context] i, personally, would prefer to see all documentation, road signs in BOTH and all children being raised/educated in both .............................. until that is adopted and energetically/pursued as official policy it does seem to me that doing "a little bit of this, a tad of that .. perhaps, mebbe" DOES smack of tokenism - which [again, my opinion only] is both expensive, paternalistic and insulting

Mr. Peanut
8th January 2006, 13:15
this question appears to be one of economics rather than the cultural validity of either [or any] language

Yup. But in NZ you're not allowed to question anything. :shutup: :nono:

marty
8th January 2006, 13:35
.... disregarding the entrenched opinion from either side ....... from the middle ground this question appears to be one of economics rather than the cultural validity of either [or any] language

i have lived in wales ---------- official documentation, road signs, etc in welsh and english
i have lived in south africa ------- ditto ditto afrikaans and english

as both te reo and english are the official languages of nz [and both have historical and emotional validity in context] i, personally, would prefer to see all documentation, road signs in BOTH and all children being raised/educated in both .............................. until that is adopted and energetically/pursued as official policy it does seem to me that doing "a little bit of this, a tad of that .. perhaps, mebbe" DOES smack of tokenism - which [again, my opinion only] is both expensive, paternalistic and insulting

so where do you start? television? newspapers? school?

scumdog
8th January 2006, 13:49
As long as I can learn Maori because it's ME that wants to - NOT because it's rammed down my throat I'll be happy.

Waylander
8th January 2006, 13:53
Have everything printed in two languages and all children taught to speak both in school? Are you peaple nuts!! Why the hell would you want to give the government more excuses to add to the tax rate.

And as for the Maori population growing.... as far as I'm aware of, there are no pure blooded Maori left. Just half breeds or quarter breeds or whatever (no offense meant in that as I am a mutt myself) The only reason he population is growing is because anyone who is 1/16th Maori can claim to be so and be entiteld to handouts from the government so more and more are doing so.

SPman
8th January 2006, 14:05
Yup. But in NZ you're not allowed to question anything. :shutup: :nono:
All the more reason to question "everything"...:mega:

Bring to the surface all that is uncomfortable, divisive, unfair, wrong......
while things lay in dark places, unheeded, they fester like untreated wounds......but.....thats another thread............


so where do you start? television? newspapers? school?
Already started in the schools.... if this is honestly treated, problem'll be solved within 15 years
.. but - immediately? simple -
hold a referendum, obtain a mandate from the people [just for the spending money bit - am assuming there's already overwhelming support for official bilingualism],
establish a budget and, starting with the most visible things, JUST DO IT!!
mstriumph [aka nike;) ]

madboy
8th January 2006, 14:09
Bold statements there Waylander, and there's bound to be a few people on this site who will be offended. Suckers, truth hurts.

Too many bros doing too f***ing little thinking "we" taxpayers owe them too f***ing much. I am strongly against Bro TV, driver licensing in Maori and any other form of specialist treatment for them. Bugger all of them read/write/speak English, let alone Te Reo. First they should concentrate on that, then worry about adding a 2nd language.

The little f***ers ate the Maoriori (is that how youspell it?) who got here before them anyway. They should sit back and be thankful the brits turned up and didn't f***ing eat/shoot/kill them too. Instead they feel they've got a right to hold the descendants (and the other few million who WEREN'T descendants of the people who signed the treaty) to ransom.

Licenses in two languages - complete waste of MY taxes.

My 2c.

SPman
8th January 2006, 14:12
As long as I can learn Maori because it's ME that wants to - NOT because it's rammed down my throat I'll be happy.
Thats fine - but if you teach it from pre school - it becomes second nature to most of that generation - (the new, upcoming one) and its not such a big issue. Also, people who grow up with 2 (or more) languages, have a far higher capability of learning even more.
For us old farts - we're basically f**ked!

Waylander
8th January 2006, 14:59
Thats fine - but if you teach it from pre school - it becomes second nature to most of that generation - (the new, upcoming one) and its not such a big issue.
But then arrises the problem of them being too young to tell the difference between the two and they begin to use some words from on language and other from the other, then no one can understand them. It's happening with the Mexican-American population all throughout the south west states.

Phurrball
8th January 2006, 15:44
Why should we all have a working knowledge of it????
Noone has the right to force kids to learn a language of limited use. In my English schooling (many years ago) we learnt a fair bit of french and german because it was actually useful for those who chose to go to europe.
Maori is of absolutely no use to the general NZ public, or the rest of the world for that matter. Its not going to help if you go overseas and its not going to be of much help in NZ either unless you choose to teach it and then you'd need a very good understanding of it (more than would be taught in schools).
Sure its good for the language to be spoken by the people that want to speak it and for them or whoever to teach it to their kids but why should it be compulsory? is it to help the language to grow so statistically they can get it taught and included more and more......
Its like the Jehovah's or whoever trying to force their religion on you.

Not really. The bottom line is that you don't have to accept a state religion. Some things are state sanctioned and difficult to avoid. You can use alternatives - but it won't be easy. Of all the languages in the world we have two official languages. You can use others to your hearts content. No matter what you think - you can avoid neither Maori nor the English language in this country. You could try, but like using an alternative currency, it would be difficult.

WRT 'race' - there are probably no so-called 'pureblooded' anyone left anywhere. A language is a seperate and evolving entity that overlays human culture. The genetic status of a 'race' is no arbiter of the validity of a language. As people grow up with language they will learn its appropriate usage. (Think English strong verbs - "I drawed a picture" We grow out of inappropriate usage)

Language can be viewed as like biodiversity. Most would agree that forms of life evolved/were created [strike out as appropriate] in a specific location to fill a niche. Likewise with language in a cultural sense. Most would probably further agree that preservation of biodiversity is a laudable aim. I suggest that it should be likewise with language. There are many endangered languages in the world today. If utility was the only factor in deciding whether preserving an endangered plant/animal was worthwhile, we'd live in a pretty sorry world today.

As language overlays cultures and places, it should be viewed in a broader sense. Imagine if you will that English has come to this beautiful land in some senses like mammals have. Neither belong. (I appreciate this analogy is OTT, but bear with me...) English has supplanted the local Reo in the same way that mammals have supplanted many of NZ's indigenous fauna.

Excuse me for being flowery and emotive, but te Reo Maori belongs with this land just like kiwi belong in our forests. They were here as a part of this place. It shouldn't be marginalised and end up going the way of the huia. It just belongs with this land - we as inhabitants need to acknowledge this regardless of our background. Maori language is a cultural part of this place, so there is a necessary connection to us all as inhabitants - bigger for some, smaller for others.

The utility of Maori may arguably be little in and of itself (I disagree personally - any language can do a job - just like any bike. They all have strengths and weaknesses). Utility is not the point. Maori is a pacific language, and follows similar rules to other related languages - as such, learning the language cannot be viewed in isolation. Think of the relationships between Spanish, Italian, Portugese, and other romance languages - learning Maori is like learning one of those WRT pacific languages - you learn about the mechanics of related languages by default. (See - it is useful in more than just isolation!)

Noone likes compulsion. But compulsion has its place. Imagine if we decided not to stop for red traffic signals...compulsion can achieve a 'big picture' aim over time better than piecemeal adoption can. I agree that the horse has bolted for those of us already through the school system. Any problems will be gone in a generation: Think how easily first generation kiwi kids pick up the accent and lingo at school - even if their parents speak a different language at home. Imagine how easily they'll pick up te Reo at school.

Us oldies will survive. English isn't going away as an official language. Nor will it for future generations I daresay. Our predominantly monolingusitic schooling system deosn't look good held up against many european models, or even somewhere like Singapore. Voluntary pickup is still there for us - we all manage to show an interest in what our kids learn at school - even if our proficiency in said subject pales in comparison to that of our child.

What's the threat in having more Maori language out there? Really? Please some one tell me? It's an officlal language of this land FFS! I appreciate the economic arguments WRT printing every official state document in 2 languages. The economic arguments are probably sound. You could argue almost anything through the narrow prism of economics while ignoring the bigger picture. Try this for size - motorcyclists are injured more severly in accidents and therefore they should pay a higher ACC levy as part of their vehicle licensing. Bang on in terms of economics - I'm sure that die-hard never-to-ride cagers think this is a great idea. I don't think I need to mention the big picture relating to this wee piece of economic logic in this company...remember that other economic arguments have a flipside you may not have thought of.

Righto. That'll do for that post. Phew.

yungatart
8th January 2006, 15:49
As long as I can learn Maori because it's ME that wants to - NOT because it's rammed down my throat I'll be happy.
Exactly how I feel- it is the compulsion I don't like

MSTRS
8th January 2006, 16:10
Anyone read the article in one of the sunday papers today by Tama Iti's brother? To me, it says it all.

SimJen
8th January 2006, 16:47
Yes to your first point. All should have a basic working knowledge of the official languages of the country. We're getting there. Slowly. Very slowly. The dominant political and social hegemony of the last couple of hundred years have resulted in a massive skew in favour of English - like beatings issued in schools to children 'jabbering' in Maori. Imagine being beaten for speaking your own language! Thank fark we're moving on and are in more enlightened times. And why not have two languages in the case of any official documents? Consider my Swiss case in point. Official docs in four languages. We have it easy!
.

Why should we all have a working knowledge of it????
Noone has the right to force kids to learn a language of limited use. In my English schooling (many years ago) we learnt a fair bit of french and german because it was actually useful for those who chose to go to europe.
Maori is of absolutely no use to the general NZ public, or the rest of the world for that matter. Its not going to help if you go overseas and its not going to be of much help in NZ either unless you choose to teach it and then you'd need a very good understanding of it (more than would be taught in schools).
Sure its good for the language to be spoken by the people that want to speak it and for them or whoever to teach it to their kids but why should it be compulsory? is it to help the language to grow so statistically they can get it taught and included more and more......
Its like the Jehovah's or whoever trying to force their religion on you.

MidnightMike
8th January 2006, 16:49
Why should we all have a working knowledge of it???? Noone has the right to teach a language of limited use. In my English schooling (many years ago) we learnt a fair bit of french and german because it was actually useful for those who chose to go to europe.
Maori is of absolutely no use to the general NZ public, or the rest of the world for that matter. Its not going to help if you go overseas and its not going to be of much help in NZ either unless you choose to teach it and then you'd need a very good understanding of it (more than would be taught in schools).
Sure its good for the language to be spoken by the people that want to speak it and for them or whoever to teach it to their kids but why should it be compulsory? is it to help the language to grow so statistically they can get it taught and included more and more......
Its like the Jehovah's or whoever trying to force their religion on you.

I second that. :woohoo:

The_Dover
8th January 2006, 17:00
are you peaple nuts!!

at least we're not in america where they struggle with basic english.

onearmedbandit
8th January 2006, 17:02
I third it, and fourth as well just for good measure. Someone tell us ignorant ones why learing Maori will benefit us, instead of another language?

LXS
8th January 2006, 17:51
or like canada, where everything is printed out in about 6 different languages.

or south auckland.....:)

lol, marty where in canada were you?
i was born there, AFAIK there is english and french, both are labelled on just about everything.
i.e. road signs, food packaging, etc etc etc

Wait till you hit Quebec.... :msn-wink:

anyway :whocares: back on topic....

Fatjim
8th January 2006, 18:23
Back to the origonal question, why print road test in maori.

I'd much rather the money was spent teaching Maori at schools. I learnt a bit of sauerkraut at scholl, hardly used it, but hey, if I'd learnt more maori and a bit of the culture, I'd be much better off. Most of my rugby team are Maori, even the 1/32's are at home with the Bro's. I wish I could "relate" better.

scumdog
8th January 2006, 23:48
I third it, and fourth as well just for good measure. Someone tell us ignorant ones why learing Maori will benefit us, instead of another language?

Because 'somebody' decided we needed to learn it - never mind that Spanish, Japanes or Mandarin would be more useful if you plan on travel that goes to other countries.

Mr. Peanut
9th January 2006, 00:14
Back to the origonal question, why print road test in maori. I guess if I was a fluent speaker of maori I'd be pretty stoked I had the choice, but I still wouldn't see the point. :confused:

boomer
9th January 2006, 00:18
In kawakawa today i noticed the petrol station had the pumps marked up in maori;

'Sif the cuzzies read the pumps as they're about to do a runner:slap:


on a side note, twas nice to be welcomed into the extended family up there and listen to the language being spoken; i learnt a few words today... culture is one of the reasons i love this place so much.

Phurrball
9th January 2006, 00:58
I second that. :woohoo:

All the seconders and thirders can look at <a href="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=467120&postcount=28">this</a> post I snuck in to an earlier spot. I can report that the drive from Dunedin to Christchurch that I undertook while you were all posting here has less corners than last time, and is particularly boring in a borrowed, automatic cage. Back to the bike on Tuesday :woohoo: (probably the only good thing about going back to Auckers...)


Because 'somebody' decided we needed to learn it - never mind that Spanish, Japanes or Mandarin would be more useful if you plan on travel that goes to other countries.

SD - it's an official language of this here land. 'Somebody' also decided the laws and policies that you enforce in your day job. Never mind that some alternatives might be more practical. You can't change what is official at the time - you just have to work with it regardless of the more useful alternatives. Granted, there is discretion ;) but what is official and legal is just that...It's probably too late for you and I to do more than play around on the edges with the Maori language due to the education system of our day failing us. No one is going to force old dogs to learn new tricks as it's impractical (The discretion bit of this here storm-in-a-teacup methinks)

Biff
11th January 2006, 17:05
A similar argument took place in Wales during the late 70s I think. A Welsh language pressure group was formed in order to lobby the govt (and paint road signs) to bi-lingualise (hehe - Hitcher will have a shit fit when he sees that word), road signs, govt docs etc.

The Welsh language lobby won ther day, and I got sick to the back teeth of people saying to me, "That 'Gwasanaethau' city must be fkin huge. Loads of signposts all over the country point to it".

'Gwasanaethau' is Welsh for service station.

hXc
11th January 2006, 17:37
Call me a one-eyed racist bastard if you will but...

I don't speak Maori and I never will. I am proud of the fact that I am white and proud that I don't speak Maori. Some teachers at school like you to answer in Maori to the roll at school - I refuse to!

There is no benefit learning as it will not help us in any way. No where else in the world speaks Maori and no where else ever will. They are a minority population so I don't see the point. I learn French, I speak a little German, can greet in quite a few languages but refuse to ever speak a word of Maori unless it's a place name - Which I will pronounce how I want to. Taupo (pronounced T-our-po), Maori (M-our-ey) etc etc.

I am sick of this bullshit PC NZ we are developing into. If your child is out of line - smack them, if you think someone is racist/sexist - get over it 'cause it's their choice! I don't care about this PC crap and I refuse to be PC at all times. What ever happened to free choice and ignoring something you don't like.

Someone's signature here is "I don't like Political Correctness, can we ban it?" I'm with ya there buddy. It's sad to see kids growing up in a mamby-pamby world.

Sorry to rant but it's my views and I am sick to death of the PC bullshit that is around.
Rant over

bondagebunny
11th January 2006, 17:54
in the future with Maori girls being urged to get pregnent as soon as possible and give kids to grand parents to bring up - so they can breed again and all on the DPB. It is the elders way of reestblishing Maori as a viable force in this country. They are using kids to breed kids and we are paying for it.
The european demise is about 150 years away>
The Maoris will slug it out with the Chinese for control, PM will be either Te Big Kauna or No park Good

avgas
11th January 2006, 17:54
I feel that Te Reo has to come a long way. From being forced....to being learnt.
I did it a school for a good 10 years - and i dont remember jack shit these days, why? cos i was no benefit for me.
I think everyone in NZ should have basic reading/writing skills in english - i mean i wouldnt live in Germany without knowing basic to advanced german.
I deal with alot of people who dont speak any english, and im sick of it. If you cant fill out a NZ residency application in english....FUCK OFF and learn it.
Right now i feel maori is a novelty, i would like to see it as something more however. Mabey i requirement for certain degrees? NZ ARMY marching orders? Encryption?

Monsterbishi
11th January 2006, 18:11
at least we're not in america where they struggle with basic english.

Actually, I'd place the quality of American education higher than our own, the literary level of New Zealanders has plummeted over the last decade and then some, with many adults basic reading, spelling and grammar skills at a level that can only be regarded as juvenile.

And this doesn't just limit itself to lower income situations, for those of us in office/administration positions, think about how often you receive emails, etc with multiple spelling mistakes.

As for multi-lingual education in Schools, it should be the choice of the parents as to whether their Children attend language classes, on a elective basis. For those who chose not to, they can opt for another class, ie Music, History, Math, etc.

bondagebunny
11th January 2006, 18:29
Actually, I'd place the quality of American education higher than our own, the literary level of New Zealanders has plummeted over the last decade and then some, with many adults basic reading, spelling and grammar skills at a level that can only be regarded as juvenile.

And this doesn't just limit itself to lower income situations, for those of us in office/administration positions, think about how often you receive emails, etc with multiple spelling mistakes.

As for multi-lingual education in Schools, it should be the choice of the parents as to whether their Children attend language classes, on a elective basis. For those who chose not to, they can opt for another class, ie Music, History, Math, etc.

in placing USA education above us - Yes NZ standards are the pits, but the yanks are no better - Many universities there now run remedial reading writing classes for college students and they have one year to shape up or they are shipped out. So they are as bad - BUT they are doing something about it . We however are not.

Phurrball
11th January 2006, 18:50
There is no benefit learning as it will not help us in any way. No where else in the world speaks Maori and no where else ever will. They are a minority population so I don't see the point. I learn French, I speak a little German, can greet in quite a few languages but refuse to ever speak a word of Maori unless it's a place name - Which I will pronounce how I want to. Taupo (pronounced T-our-po), Maori (M-our-ey) etc etc.

You clearly see some point in learning other languages - why the antipathy towards Te Reo in particular - seems to miss the point when it comes to the big-picture utility of learning other languages per se? Would you pronounce German or French place names however it takes your fancy on a particular day? I'd love to be a fly on the wall while you were trying that wee trick on in France ;)


I am sick of this bullshit PC NZ we are developing into. If your child is out of line - smack them, if you think someone is racist/sexist - get over it 'cause it's their choice! I don't care about this PC crap and I refuse to be PC at all times. What ever happened to free choice and ignoring something you don't like.

Someone's signature here is "I don't like Political Correctness, can we ban it?" I'm with ya there buddy. *snip*[/QUOTE]

Would you care to explain exactly what the much-maligned 'Political Correctness' actually is in its totality? It seems foolish to label distinct and often disconnected sociolinguistic features with one label. I have no problem with people disliking specific things, or a definable subset of things, but the ill-defined PC bogeyman panic of so many is just as bad as what you accuse the so-called PC lobby of. Perhaps PC is just a convenient label for the cultural paradigm shift going on all around us...

Then, if we had it your way I'm sure you'd not mind being on the receiving end of racial or sexual taunts 'cause it was the choice of the majority present. Oh, hang on, that's only OK when you're in the majority eh.

Waylander
11th January 2006, 19:03
Actually, I'd place the quality of American education higher than our own....
You know that was just aimed as an insult at me right? I doubt he meant it to start any sort of discusion.

And Bondagebunny, the reason that some universities run remedial reading is for students who dropped out of middle/highschool for some reason or another (they kicked me out, thought I was a danger to other students or some such....), or thier parrents couldn't afford it, then later in life decide they want to go back and start over.

yungatart
11th January 2006, 19:08
Believe me, Phurrball, there are many areas in this country where white NZers are racially taunted by their early settler bros. Funny thing is, it only happens when they are outnumbered 10 to 1. There are many racists here-and they aren't all white!

hXc
11th January 2006, 19:16
You clearly see some point in learning other languages - why the antipathy towards Te Reo in particular - seems to miss the point when it comes to the big-picture utility of learning other languages per se? Would you pronounce German or French place names however it takes your fancy on a particular day? I'd love to be a fly on the wall while you were trying that wee trick on in France ;)

Well...Maori is no use to me at all. I don't need to learn it and I have no desire to learn it. It won't benefit me in anyway at all. The majority of Europeans in New Zealand on holiday or just moved here will at least try to speak English and Maori properly. The majority of Maori's have no intention of trying to speak English properly so why should I speak Maori properly.



Would you care to explain exactly what the much-maligned 'Political Correctness' actually is in its totality? It seems foolish to label distinct and often disconnected sociolinguistic features with one label. I have no problem with people disliking specific things, or a definable subset of things, but the ill-defined PC bogeyman panic of so many is just as bad as what you accuse the so-called PC lobby of. Perhaps PC is just a convenient label for the cultural paradigm shift going on all around us...

Political correctness to me: A trend that wants to make everything fair, equal and just to all by supressing thought, speech and practice in order to acheive that goal. Also an avoidance of expressions or actions that can be perceived to exclude or insult people who are "socially disadvantaged" or "discriminated against."

Yes I stole them from google but they say exactly what I want to say, in a short, straight to the point, form.


Then, if we had it your way I'm sure you'd not mind being on the receiving end of racial or sexual taunts 'cause it was the choice of the majority present. Oh, hang on, that's only OK when you're in the majority eh.

Personally, if someone tells me I'm a "honki" or "white-trash" then I don't give a fuck. I'll let them think that. I probably think that they're "black scum", "dumb niggers" or "fucking black c**ts" so it evens it all out.

And I don't have "a way" as you call it. I just don't like this PC bullshit society that we are turning into, much like a lot of other people in this nation.

Phurrball
11th January 2006, 19:43
Well...Maori is no use to me at all. I don't need to learn it and I have no desire to learn it. It won't benefit me in anyway at all. The majority of Europeans in New Zealand on holiday or just moved here will at least try to speak English and Maori properly. The majority of Maori's have no intention of trying to speak English properly so why should I speak Maori properly. Why take pride in doing something incorrectly? Read my big rant earlier for the benefits of learning a language per se, yep, even Te Reo.


Political correctness to me: A trend that wants to make everything fair, equal and just to all by supressing thought, speech and practice in order to acheive that goal. Also an avoidance of expressions or actions that can be perceived to exclude or insult people who are "socially disadvantaged" or "discriminated against."

Yes I stole them from google but they say exactly what I want to say, in a short, straight to the point, form.


And fairness, equality, and justice are bad why? I would change 'supress' to 'change' personally. No one can supress what another thinks. We can change what is acceptable in society. Drink driving say. By changing norms we effect change for the better. I still think those who suggest 'PC' as a single, cohesive concept are advocating an ill-conceived position.

BTW - don't think that I think every application of so-called 'PC' is good. Some patently aren't. How do you know how the changes being effected at present will be viewed in 50-100 years time? Will it be like women stirring to get the vote? Some, I daresay will be viewed in a positive light...

Gotta go...

Scouse
11th January 2006, 19:57
Not really. The bottom line is that you don't have to accept a state religion. Some things are state sanctioned and difficult to avoid. You can use alternatives - but it won't be easy. Of all the languages in the world we have two official languages. You can use others to your hearts content. No matter what you think - you can avoid neither Maori nor the English language in this country. You could try, but like using an alternative currency, it would be difficult.

WRT 'race' - there are probably no so-called 'pureblooded' anyone left anywhere. A language is a seperate and evolving entity that overlays human culture. The genetic status of a 'race' is no arbiter of the validity of a language. As people grow up with language they will learn its appropriate usage. (Think English strong verbs - "I drawed a picture" We grow out of inappropriate usage)

Language can be viewed as like biodiversity. Most would agree that forms of life evolved/were created [strike out as appropriate] in a specific location to fill a niche. Likewise with language in a cultural sense. Most would probably further agree that preservation of biodiversity is a laudable aim. I suggest that it should be likewise with language. There are many endangered languages in the world today. If utility was the only factor in deciding whether preserving an endangered plant/animal was worthwhile, we'd live in a pretty sorry world today.

As language overlays cultures and places, it should be viewed in a broader sense. Imagine if you will that English has come to this beautiful land in some senses like mammals have. Neither belong. (I appreciate this analogy is OTT, but bear with me...) English has supplanted the local Reo in the same way that mammals have supplanted many of NZ's indigenous fauna.

Excuse me for being flowery and emotive, but te Reo Maori belongs with this land just like kiwi belong in our forests. They were here as a part of this place. It shouldn't be marginalised and end up going the way of the huia. It just belongs with this land - we as inhabitants need to acknowledge this regardless of our background. Maori language is a cultural part of this place, so there is a necessary connection to us all as inhabitants - bigger for some, smaller for others.

The utility of Maori may arguably be little in and of itself (I disagree personally - any language can do a job - just like any bike. They all have strengths and weaknesses). Utility is not the point. Maori is a pacific language, and follows similar rules to other related languages - as such, learning the language cannot be viewed in isolation. Think of the relationships between Spanish, Italian, Portugese, and other romance languages - learning Maori is like learning one of those WRT pacific languages - you learn about the mechanics of related languages by default. (See - it is useful in more than just isolation!)

Noone likes compulsion. But compulsion has its place. Imagine if we decided not to stop for red traffic signals...compulsion can achieve a 'big picture' aim over time better than piecemeal adoption can. I agree that the horse has bolted for those of us already through the school system. Any problems will be gone in a generation: Think how easily first generation kiwi kids pick up the accent and lingo at school - even if their parents speak a different language at home. Imagine how easily they'll pick up te Reo at school.

Us oldies will survive. English isn't going away as an official language. Nor will it for future generations I daresay. Our predominantly monolingusitic schooling system deosn't look good held up against many european models, or even somewhere like Singapore. Voluntary pickup is still there for us - we all manage to show an interest in what our kids learn at school - even if our proficiency in said subject pales in comparison to that of our child.

What's the threat in having more Maori language out there? Really? Please some one tell me? It's an officlal language of this land FFS! I appreciate the economic arguments WRT printing every official state document in 2 languages. The economic arguments are probably sound. You could argue almost anything through the narrow prism of economics while ignoring the bigger picture. Try this for size - motorcyclists are injured more severly in accidents and therefore they should pay a higher ACC levy as part of their vehicle licensing. Bang on in terms of economics - I'm sure that die-hard never-to-ride cagers think this is a great idea. I don't think I need to mention the big picture relating to this wee piece of economic logic in this company...remember that other economic arguments have a flipside you may not have thought of.

Righto. That'll do for that post. Phew.

Nice rant good sound argument I dont agree with all youve said but you deserve a Greeny so greeny awarded

scumdog
12th January 2006, 07:28
And fairness, equality, and justice are bad why? I would change 'supress' to 'change' personally. No one can supress what another thinks. We can change what is acceptable in society. Drink driving say. By changing norms we effect change for the better. I still think those who suggest 'PC' as a single, cohesive concept are advocating an ill-conceived position.
Gotta go...
P.C. in a lot of cases is the 'tail wagging the dog' - and that's what puts P.C. off-side with so many people.
FACT: Life is not fair, PARTICULARLY if you're a 'minority', that's the way it is and that's why the 'majority' are so 'anti' it, the minority are wanting things 'bent' to suit them and make things better for THEM at no or little benefit to the majority - or even to to the disadvantage of the majority.

I've got to deal with so much unreasonable P.C. in my job that it gets my back up almost straight away...grrr!!!

sunhuntin
12th January 2006, 07:56
or like canada, where everything is printed out in about 6 different languages.

or south auckland.....:)

yep...the backside of all products in supermarkets have french on em. the front has english. motorway signs for off and on ramps have the french equivalent alongside, as do door signs etc. basic street signs, however, are english only. [at least where i was!] even the airplane safety instructions have english and then french done. the magazines supplied have articles printed twice...once for each language.

in six months...the only french i picked up was "sortie" which means "exit" [too long spent on motorways in toronto!!]

scumdog
12th January 2006, 07:58
yep...the backside of all products in supermarkets have french on em. the front has english. motorway signs for off and on ramps have the french equivalent alongside, as do door signs etc. basic street signs, however, are english only. [at least where i was!] even the airplane safety instructions have english and then french done. the magazines supplied have articles printed twice...once for each language.

in six months...the only french i picked up was "sortie" which means "exit" [too long spent on motorways in toronto!!]

Quebec is even worse - lots of French language signs etc - but without the English equivalent, arrgh! scre-bleu!

ManDownUnder
12th January 2006, 08:13
in six months...the only french i picked up was "sortie" which means "exit" [too long spent on motorways in toronto!!]

The French LOVE going to the UK and reading their signs...

"Soft Verge" is a classic...

Verge being slang for "penis" is French... (literally "rod" I think)

Ausfart in Germany (gas from drinking their Fosters I guess).

There are heaps of them.

yungatart
12th January 2006, 09:02
I would hate to be a white middle class male in Godzone in 2000's-they are the biggest victims in our PC gone mad society.

Ixion
12th January 2006, 09:17
I want them in elvish!

hXc
12th January 2006, 09:19
Ixion - Did you remember to take your blue pill this morning? I hope you're not giving the nurses a hard time again;)

ManDownUnder
12th January 2006, 09:19
I would hate to be a white middle class male in Godzone in 2000's-they are the biggest victims in our PC gone mad society.

We're only victims if we allow ourselves to be.

Sometimes it pays to do whats right instead of what's "wrong". I hate to say it but I agree with WINJA... (or is that "winja") on that point


Ixion - Did you remember to take your blue pill this morning? I hope you're not giving the nurses a hard time again
That'll make him want Smurfish too... I think elvish will do (unless he's left the building)

Blind spot
12th January 2006, 11:15
Well put phurrball

Finn
12th January 2006, 11:20
Im probably gonna rub a few peoples fur the wrong way here? Oh well :devil2:

When was the last time you had a chat with a policeman in maori? Or saw a road sign written in maori?
My point is, a person who can speak maori, is still going to need to understand warning signs in english and what a police officer/road worker/other road user is saying to them, to be a safe road user.

Realistically, how exactly does one fuction within normal society without a simple understanding of english? If New Zealand was a bilingual society I wouldn't have a problem with it, in fact I'd probably be quite proud of my ablility to speak the native tongue.

So why do we have drivers licence tests in maori? For fun?? Is this not a gross waste of resources for P.C. 20th century bullshite?

It seems like an awful lot of bother for someone who has made a choice to speak maori exclusively, without learning basic english?? :mellow: And thats before you have to find a bilingual tester for thier restricted licence... :confused:

I think we all know the answer to this. There should be 1000's more questions raised about laws and practices here in NZ but as someone pointed out - how dare you question government inititives especially when involving maori.

While there are a bunch of academic, man hating, left wing, hairy back females with hidden agendas running this country, what do you expect? They have infiltrated education, health, justice and every other agency with this BS.

We had our chance last year and we blew it.

MisterD
12th January 2006, 12:06
Would you pronounce German or French place names however it takes your fancy on a particular day? I'd love to be a fly on the wall while you were trying that wee trick on in France ;)



That's the point isn't it? I've never had a French person give me shit for calling Paris "Pa-riss" when speaking English...sure when I'm speaking froglish I say "Pa-ree", but if I'm speaking English why do I need to pronounce "Wh" as "f"?

Phurrball
12th January 2006, 17:30
That's the point isn't it? I've never had a French person give me shit for calling Paris "Pa-riss" when speaking English...sure when I'm speaking froglish I say "Pa-ree", but if I'm speaking English why do I need to pronounce "Wh" as "f"?

Ahh, the letters chosen arbitrarily to represent the Maori language...that's a whole other academic debate. Usually a Maori place name does not have an English alternative - there are odd transliterations in Maori too, but these are distinct from the English word - eg. te Paipera Tapu is the bible I believe - just one example of an English word with a Maori transliterated equivalent. Some places have an English name too, but IMHO if it's in Maori - it doesn't hurt to make an effort. (And I ain't suggesting everyone become a pronounciation expert overnight. Maori is a different language family to ENglish) For my money, Maori names are often better than those in English. I mean - 'south' and 'north' islands!? 'New Zealand' Not exactly inspiring or original...


Nice rant good sound argument I dont agree with all youve said (snip) Anything can be taken too far - hence why I'm not the only one suggesting it's too late for those of us who are old dogs to be taught new tricks. It's the generation in primary school we need to look to for change - there is way too little emphasis on language in NZ schools IMHO - and I'm not just talking te Reo - but bottom line, Maori is our other official language - it wouldn't hurt for the kids to know a bit and for official forms to be available in it. Yep, I know there are economic arguments, I dealt with them earlier.


P.C. in a lot of cases is the 'tail wagging the dog' - and that's what puts P.C. off-side with so many people.
FACT: Life is not fair, PARTICULARLY if you're a 'minority', that's the way it is and that's why the 'majority' are so 'anti' it, the minority are wanting things 'bent' to suit them and make things better for THEM at no or little benefit to the majority - or even to to the disadvantage of the majority.

I've got to deal with so much unreasonable P.C. in my job that it gets my back up almost straight away...grrr!!! Sure, there are unreasonable things happening. Some would say that there are some in your line of work who are unreasonable too SD. As you know it isn't that simple. IMHO if a minority are genuinely being shat on, disadvantaged, or suffering it isn't a bad thing to weight things in their favour to even things up a bit.

BTW - I am the dreaded, so-called 'white, middle class male'. I've had a bloody good start in life and there are many things I'm thankful for. Not everyone is as lucky as me - I see nothing wrong with helping out those who need it. Some changes do need to be societal IMHO, effected in the same way that drink driving was made socially unacceptable...

MSTRS
12th January 2006, 18:00
BTW - I am the dreaded, so-called 'white, middle class male'. I've had a bloody good start in life and there are many things I'm thankful for. Not everyone is as lucky as me - I see nothing wrong with helping out those who need it.
Ditto.....but luck has little to do with it. Like many/most others, I've needed a helping hand from time to time - and have extended it to others as occassion has warranted. The strange thing is that the harder I work, the luckier I get. It's all about attitude, NOT expectation. The important thing is NOT the helping hand, but what the recipient does with it that counts. I would hazard a guess that none of us here genuinely dislike other races simply for being a different colour, and when it comes to the Maori issues facing us, some of what upsets me is the us/them mentality shown by the radical types (from Tama Iti/Mike Smith/Ken Mair to Pita Sharples/Ranginui Walker). When some jerk in Wellington forces language etc on me, then I just feel the same resentment as the above named apparently do. But if I speak my mind, then I am a 'racist'. Excuse me??

scumdog
12th January 2006, 18:14
Ditto.....but luck has little to do with it. Like many/most others, I've needed a helping hand from time to time - and have extended it to others as occassion has warranted. The strange thing is that the harder I work, the luckier I get. It's all about attitude, NOT expectation. The important thing is NOT the helping hand, but what the recipient does with it that counts. I would hazard a guess that none of us here genuinely dislike other races simply for being a different colour, and when it comes to the Maori issues facing us, some of what upsets me is the us/them mentality shown by the radical types (from Tama Iti/Mike Smith/Ken Mair to Pita Sharples/Ranginui Walker). When some jerk in Wellington forces language etc on me, then I just feel the same resentment as the above named apparently do. But if I speak my mind, then I am a 'racist'. Excuse me??

Good call, I agree totally!!! (unofficially that is).

To each of you: get off your lazy fat arse if you're not already working!!!

Get a job and get a life eh? - oh, and a hair-cut might help!!!


Leeches we have enough of already!!

Phurrball
13th January 2006, 10:46
Leeches? We have an incredibly low unemployment rate? IMHO the whole 'vast numbers of bludgers sucking up vast ammounts of taxpayers money' thing is as much of a myth as a cohesive entity called 'Political Correctness'. (Disclaimer - there absolutely are some bludgers - always will be, but a small minority) That's just me - we wont go there now eh? Nor will we go down the assimilation path: I've done enough ranting.

MSTRS: The first three on your list are fairly 'out there', but Ranginui Walker and Pita Sharples are hardly scary radicals! The aim is to shock, and get media attention, thereby pushing appropriate buttons, provoking a backlash that makes pakeha look like a pack of racist bastards when portrayed through the eye of the media. The media and those who allow their buttons to be pushed play into the radical's hands every time...(BTW the 'other side' of the argument might see assimilationists and elements of NZ's right - eg the ACT party as scary radicals. Them scary radicals are everywhere on all sides of the political compass! Ya can't move for tripping over them!)

(Oh, and BTW it's Tame Iti, not Tama. Ironic I know ;) But it ain't pronounced the same - vaguely amusing nonetheless)

Righto - off to get my sponging, tertiary student arse a step closer to being enrolled in some courses that make me think like a weak-wristed, namby-pamby PC exponent...Hehehe:done: (Hardly likely in an LLB methinks)

I hereby close my correspondence in this here thread. It's been edifying, thank you all for your contributions :)

Finn
13th January 2006, 13:51
Leeches? We have an incredibly low unemployment rate?

That's because the stats don't count all the people on welfare.

ManDownUnder
13th January 2006, 14:35
I'd like to sit that test in Maori! I think we all should.

The State would need to pay for a translator but we could do it as part of the recognition of our cultural diversity!

ManDownUnder
13th January 2006, 14:40
Good call, I agree totally!!! (unofficially that is).

To each of you: get off your lazy fat arse if you're not already working!!!


LMAO... nice one guys - 100% agreement with you.

We have streets that need sweeping and weeds that need pulling. Lawns to be mown and grafitti to be cleaned off (or taggers to be caught).

I'll do any one of those jobs in a heartbeat if I need to earn some cash, and I'll be looking for a better job while I'm at it.

My God - don't get me going on the whole benefits conversation. My tax... my precious tax dollars going WHERE, TO WHOM??? WHY?????

Meanwhile my kids need an education and health system that'll actually look after them.

AAARRRGGHHHH!!!!!

Speedracer
17th January 2006, 21:56
in placing USA education above us - Yes NZ standards are the pits, but the yanks are no better - Many universities there now run remedial reading writing classes for college students and they have one year to shape up or they are shipped out. So they are as bad - BUT they are doing something about it . We however are not.

At canty uni you have to pass a writing test in engineering. If you fail it you have to take a course.



Also, I remember back in 3rd form I had a choice of learning French, Japanese or Maori. It was compulsory.
My brother took maori, all he learned was that paraparaumu means 'shit oven'.

terbang
18th January 2006, 10:40
Why not learn another language..? English can be a pain in the ass and quite frankly the Austronesian languages such as Maori are a lot of fun and in some cases more descriptive. For effective communication there needs to be a speaker and a listener one is no good without the other (Orang Selandia Baru bagus sekali) makes no sense at all to a lot here because the recieving bits not there. The best way to even start to understand another culture is to learn thier language.
You might be pleasantly surprised and as a bonus get that grey matter working..

Troll
19th January 2006, 08:00
Look at the hidden benefits of Maori language being an offical language

If you relocate to the Uk like I did you now have to take an english test to stay here permanently

New Zealand is now treated as a third world country

Maybe if polititions thought thru the natural conseqence of their actions more common sense would prevail

Skyryder
21st January 2006, 21:09
Yes let's cement the ignorance of the average urban Kiwi in concrete.

What's the point of teaching Maori? "It was never a written language anyway". Neither were the prototypical languages that resulted in English. A big chunk of our grammar is derived from non-literate peasants, speaking mostly in the vernacular. Maori is a written language NOW, thanks to the efforts of some very clever people over the last 170 years.

Things change. Get over it. Darwin said something along the lines that it isn't the fittest organism that survives, but the one most adaptable to change.

This attitude is typical of the hardheaded descendants of the European colonial wave that resists integrating the best of all cultures that live in NZ. "I don't understand it, and it never did anything for me, so it must be crap."

Within the next 150 years all people born in NZ will have a scrap of Maori DNA, and most likely some Asian DNA as well.

We may as well ban the teaching of history because it never did anything for me, economics too for the same reason. Oh yeah, that algebra and calculus is too hard as well, lets ditch that. Why is physical science SOOOO much more important to the Post-Modern, European/US derived mindset? Why is human culture viewed as a "lesser" science?

Without historians and anthropologists, theologists and philosophers, physicists, chemists, politicians, and soldiers would never have asked themselves the question, "Yes I can destroy this village/town/country/culture/continent, but SHOULD I?"

These little differences are what make us a vital, growing, learning, global culture.

It is important to learn ANY second language as a child because it establishes a mindset that enables you to learn more, to investigate and evaluate the syntax of a language medium, so you can exhange ideas with other people.

What a load of crap. Hey that's not a swear word or a word to have my posts removed. This thread is about sitting a drivers licence in Maori. It's not about cultural diversity or the prediction of NZ DNA. And just for the record I don't see Maori culture diversifying as we have been forced too. Just another silly lot of drivel from Second Hand Jim. And mods please don't edit J2's quote. If he wants to make a dick of himself...........let him.


Skyryder

Back Fire
21st January 2006, 21:15
I personally hope we are heading down a similar route to Wales. It is cultural arrogance to assume we can get by in this world with only English.

dont mean to be rude but I am Welsh, and IMO they should let the language die, it's an ancient language with no real purpose. It is so old that they keep having to make up b*shit words to compensate. Every other Welsh person I personally know share these thoughts....

Pixie
1st February 2006, 09:17
If english was good enough for Jesus Christ.It's good enough for me.

Monsterbishi
1st February 2006, 09:49
If english was good enough for Jesus Christ.It's good enough for me.

The engine language wasn't around when JC was alive, try old Hebrew instead.

tracyprier
1st February 2006, 10:35
Amen brother..tell it like it is !!!



EDIT: While there are a bunch of academic, man hating, left wing, hairy back females with hidden agendas running this country, what do you expect? They have infiltrated education, health, justice and every other agency with this BS.

We had our chance last year and we blew it.

jazbug5
1st February 2006, 11:52
The engine language wasn't around when JC was alive, try old Hebrew instead.

1) Engine...? &
2) Heard of irony (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=irony)...? It's quite good.

As for the blah blah 'bloody pc', blah blah, have a look at this amusing article.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=491988#post491988
And lighten up!

Pixie
2nd February 2006, 09:22
The engine language wasn't around when JC was alive, try old Hebrew instead.
Well Duh

It's a line a US politition was heard to utter