Would like some bikers advice [Archive]

selyahnitram

18th January 2006, 13:43

Would like some bikers advice – I have been riding bikes for 18 years and owned 10 different bikes in that time, I have never really had any major mechanical problems before.
3 months ago I bought a NEW bike (make and where I purchased withheld to protect dealer), this was my first brand new bike and was purchased for daily commuting and weekends away. The bike was ok for the first month, I clocked up loads of K's and run it in well, it had its first service and then started to have mechanical issues; these were intermittent at first and as such took lots of problem solving from the dealer. In the next 2 months the bike went back to the dealer 8 times due to problems. The bike has done 3,000k, and after 1 week without issues it has again had to be returned with another failure – I have twice nearly been killed because of the gearbox seizing whilst riding in heavy traffic! I have been in contact with the manufacturers in NZ and explained, as the dealer has, that this bike is a LEMON. The manufacturers have refused to replace the bike and will only help out with warranty claims, and have told me this is all they will do regarless of how many "teething problems" I have to contend with.
The bike has again been fixed and I received it back again yesterday, I am now am terrified to ride it! Will it break down again, is it safe to ride? Who knows?
The dealer has been incredible, offering me loan bike after loan bike. In frustration of these ongoing issues and the lack of help from the manufacturer the dealer has now offered to buy back the bike as a trade in -this will be a $2,000 loss for me. The problem is he has no other new bikes in my price range, and no second-hand bikes of the type I want in stock, so I am stuck either having to increase my loan (which I cannot afford) to buy a bigger bike, or wait until another second-hand similar style bike comes in to the dealership, and in the mean time so I don’t have to ride that bike again, I have to get lifts or bus everywhere making me late to and from work.
The dealer, understandably, will not give me cash to go elsewhere, or buy privately so I am stuck now between a rock and a hard place. What do I do?? :brick:

riffer

18th January 2006, 13:46

What's your insurance excess?

Less than $2000?

edit: on another note, do you believe the vehicle sold to you was fit for the purpose you intended it?

You could possibly have grounds for return of your money.

Bad luck for both you and the motorcycle store, I reckon. I'm sure they would (I have a fair idea of who the store is) like to see you right on this one.

If I were you, I'd probably write the experience off as the price you pay for being an early adoptee, and buy a Japanese bike (and take the financial hit, if you can).

Sniper

18th January 2006, 13:47

Let me guess. Its a Honda 1000? Best bet is to fight the manafacturers.

marty

18th January 2006, 13:48

i think the dealer should be considering giving you a refund and arguing with hyosung - you shouldn't have to wear the loss.

i wouldn't say the dealer has been incredible - they sound like they have only been keeping to their side of the warranty/consumer protection act - nothing more than that.

you need to have a discussion with WINJA about warranty claims. personally, i don't think that your bike has fulfilled the intent that it was purchased for, and that it should either be replaced, or your money refunded.

Lou Girardin

18th January 2006, 13:57

Grahameeboy

18th January 2006, 14:07

Drum

18th January 2006, 14:13

Why do you want to protect the dealer?
One of the main recourses for the disgruntled consumer is to spread the bad word!

mattt

18th January 2006, 14:13

I would spend a small amount of money and invest in a Lawyers view.....an hour should do it and should not cost much when you consider what you stand to loose.
Is the loan finance. If so refuse to pay any more instalments...after all they are interested party.....and explain the problem to them.....even Bank may be able to offer advice.
I maybe wrong but I reckon dealer should refund money and it is their problem to sort out with Manufacturer....remember they are an 'Agent'.

Call the Motor Vehicle Disputes Tribunal - they'll tell you exactly where you stand. Don't see why you shouldn't get 100% refund if it is proven the bike you brought was a piece of shit. Sounds similar to a repsol blade story posted a few months back? Kept shitting itself for no reason :slap:
Good luck

DMNTD

18th January 2006, 14:14

I would spend a small amount of money and invest in a Lawyers view.....an hour should do it and should not cost much when you consider what you stand to loose....
Yep agreed but you can usually get free or VERY cheap advice on certain nights from Citizan Advice Bureau,you've been balls around enough.
Sounds like the dealer has been more than reasonable to me so far.

bigbadwolf

18th January 2006, 14:18

i had the same problem recently, i bought an ipod and it screwed up so i took it back in to be fixed. it was replaced a month later, and the new one had exactly the same problem. i took it back in to the store i got it from and they made me take it into the apple mac place, and they sent me back to the store, did heaps of running around then decided to have a look at the consumers institute website about the consumer guarantees act. read these parts:

what it covers (http://www.consumer.org.nz/topic.asp?docid=918&category=Legal%20Rights&subcategory=&topic=Consumer%20Guarantees%20Act&title=What%20it%20covers&contenttype=general)

the guarantees (http://www.consumer.org.nz/topic.asp?docid=918&category=Legal%20Rights&subcategory=&topic=Consumer%20Guarantees%20Act&title=The%20guarantees&contenttype=general)

putting it right (http://www.consumer.org.nz/topic.asp?docid=918&category=Legal%20Rights&subcategory=&topic=Consumer%20Guarantees%20Act&title=Putting%20it%20right&contenttype=general)

especially the part where it says:

If something goes wrong, you have the right to insist that the seller or service provider fixes things. Generally speaking, this means the retailer who sold you the goods or services must sort out the problem. If the stitching comes apart on your fairly new shoes, you don't have to track down the manufacturer or importer, you simply take them back to the shop. If the problem cannot be fixed, or cannot be put right within a reasonable time, or is substantial, you can reject the product and choose a replacement or full refund. When you have the right to reject the goods, sellers cannot just offer a credit note. If you want a refund, you are entitled to it - by cash, cheque or credit card charge reversal.

i had to argue for frickin ages with the shop i got my ipod from but eventually they gave me a refund. although this may be a lot harder with such a high priced object, so talking to a lawyer specialising in the consumer guarantees act would be a very good idea. get as much information as possible and then you can (if you want) take the retailer to the consumer disputes tribunal (pretty sure it's free) and sort it out there, but you have to represent yourself which means you need all the information you can get

hope that helps

Grahameeboy

18th January 2006, 14:19

[B]Yep agreed but you can usually get free or VERY cheap advice on certain nights from Citizan Advice Bureau,you've been balls around enough.

True but I have had mixed responses with CAB.....maybe find a Lawyer who provides an hours free consultation.........maybe ask Sarge.......you want to go in there with all guns blazing.........maybe Dealer has been okay but they sold the bike....

thehollowmen

18th January 2006, 14:23

What is it?
if it is a two stroke bike and you're riding it hard for long periods or if it it a high reving four stroke dirt bike that needs the top end done after X hours.. you might be out of luck

however the big thing is what the guys above said "fit for the intended purpose"
Those two strokes and super-high strung four strokes ain't intended for that sorta work.
good luck.

DMNTD

18th January 2006, 14:23

True but I have had mixed responses with CAB.....maybe find a Lawyer who provides an hours free consultation...
They usually,well used to,have lawyers that come in on certain nights to give free or very cheap advice. Wouldn't bother with the CAB's advice re this even how well intended it may be.

SVrunner

18th January 2006, 14:26

Under conusmer act goods for sale must be fit for purpose.
As it is not then ask for full refund.
Next see a lawyer.

selyahnitram

18th January 2006, 14:30

Thanks for all your help:

Firstly - I dont want to go shouting crap about the dealer as they have tried very hard to get the bike fixed and I believe they are just as pissed as me by the NZ representative of the Manufacturer, they just dont have a bike I can afford or want.

Secondly - I agree they should give me my money back, but getting to that point takes time and time I do not have, really need a outcome very soon.

Thirdly - the bike is a 90 degree V twin and pushes out over 70 BHP, so plently enough power for comuting and playing.

I was hoping the threat of advertising these issues with the dealer and manufacturer would help things along, but that doesnt seem to be the case, if I do shout crap about them I might loose the trade price I already have been offered?

Grahameeboy

18th January 2006, 14:32

Under conusmer act goods for sale must be fit for purpose.
As it is not then ask for full refund.
Next see a lawyer.

I reckon...you have spent enough time getting no where and assuming bike cost more than $7,000......when case is heard by District Court (maybe more now) you may even get cost back so I reckon Lawyer is No 1 priority.....they will probably do 1 letter for you to let thee dealer know you mean business and I reckon this will be enough.

imdying

18th January 2006, 14:33

Is the loan finance. If so refuse to pay any more instalments...after all they are interested partyWhatever you do, don't follow this advice. Your loan contract would quite clearly outline the penalties for defaulting, possibly even cancellation of the loan, resulting in you having to front up all the cash now.

Fatjim

18th January 2006, 14:34

If the bike is unrideable because it is unreliable and unsafe dispite the repairs then you need to take positive action. Bike dealers need to realise that at some stage they have to replace or refund as the law requires.

You need to notify the supplier that you are rejecting the motorcycle, the grounds for this (quote the consumer guarantees act 1993 section 6 (see url above) ncluding a list of failures. Also state that has a "failure of substantial character" according to section 21(a) and 21(d).

You should also state that you regret that it has got this far, that you would have preferred them to volunteer this remedy without you having to resort to this.

Then you need to arrange for them to pick the bike up, if they refuse, state that you will get it relocated at their cost.

It would pay to get a lawyer to write the letter as well, just to make sure all tyour i's are dotted and your t's crossed.

Fatjim

18th January 2006, 14:35

bugger, this was a repeat.
correct url below is http://www.legislation.govt.nz/libraries/contents/om_isapi.dll?clientID=909231675&hitsperheading=on&infobase=pal_statutes.nfo&jump=a1993-091%2fs.6&softpage=DOC#JUMPDEST_a1993-091/s.6

Grahameeboy

18th January 2006, 14:37

Whatever you do, don't follow this advice. Your loan contract would quite clearly outline the penalties for defaulting, possibly even cancellation of the loan, resulting in you having to front up all the cash now.

Sorry......but I did say tell them first......I have heard that in some case you can do this......:not:

selyahnitram

18th January 2006, 14:59

Guess I better ring my lawyer - just dont want to piss them off and loose any offer they have already made.

:spudwhat:

Grahameeboy

18th January 2006, 15:05

Guess I better ring my lawyer - just dont want to piss them off and loose any offer they have already made.

:spudwhat:

Is it really an offer though!!!

selyahnitram

18th January 2006, 15:21

Shit.... I just wish I had bought the blackbird or the VTR.

That is the last time I let the wife have any input into buying a bike :stupid:

Lou Girardin

18th January 2006, 15:53

That is the last time I let the wife have any input into buying a bike :stupid:

Make her pay then. One way or another:blip:

zagy

18th January 2006, 15:54

Brother in law brought a Triumph 2005 and had nothing but trouble with it for three months blowing oil sensors. Bike shop were it was purchased from ended up stripping motor and found filings and siliocone in the oil tracks. Bike shop tried to make him take the bike back, brother in law ended up getting advice from Consumer Affairs who advised him that under the consumer guarantees act he was entitled to a full refund which he recieved.:ride:

HenryDorsetCase

18th January 2006, 16:53

It doesn't sound "fit for it's intended porpoise". There are definite safety issues in your post, it doesn't sound safe to ride.
Threaten the importer with the Consumer Guarantees Act, if they don't play ball, follow through.

Sorry Lou, he doesnt have to do squat to or for the importer, his contractual relationship is with the dealer. The dealer has to make good on it.

And the CGA has teeth. selya... go to www.legislation.govt.nz and check it out.

thehollowmen

18th January 2006, 16:59

Here is another link that might help you although it is worded "for cars buyers"

http://www.consumer.org.nz/topic.asp?docid=230&category=Legal%20Rights&subcategory=Cars&topic=Car%20buyers'%20rights

HenryDorsetCase

18th January 2006, 16:59

18th January 2006, 18:27

1. Shit.... I just wish I had bought the blackbird or the VTR.

2.That is the last time I let the wife have any input into buying a bike :stupid:
1 we can figure out what type of bike it now and guessing you got it new that leaves one of two shops in this town and they are both run by good folks. So, well done not naming the shop. Please don't unless they really dump on you and I doubt they will. Sounds like they are trying hard to help (as you have said).
2. fault located !
nah, they look like well constructed bikes to me and I haven't heard any bad stories so far.
If all this is about mechanical probs then surely they can be fixed. Sometimes its just takes time to suss out the cause. good luck anyways.

selyahnitram

18th January 2006, 20:40

As I have said, I have no intention of naming them, they are good guys and are caught in the shit just like I am, I have told them if they can find me another bike I like I would buy from them again, no hesitation, I have no intention of walking away, they are my local dealer and will continue to be if we can find a resolution.
Problem is they have nothing to offer me!

I have had an assortment of issues both mechanical and electrical - the mechanical problems caused the geabox to seize twice,this would not have been serious normally, but both times I was crossing intersections, really not an inspiring problem as I was nearly hit by cars and trucks :shit:

In total in the 3 months I have owned this bike it has been back to the garage 7 times, has been off the road for a total of nearly 5 weeks.
This is a new model and the first of its kind sold in NZ, I dont know about anyone else but I do not want to carry on being test rider for this company, I am not to big to admit I am actually scared to ride this thing each day and want to part company with it ASAP.

I will be ringing Ministry of consumer affairs and citizens advice first thing in the morning regarding the consumers guarantee act and acceptable quality, I will also be calling my lawyer and asking her to draft a letter, I really dont want to go down this route but what other choice do I have left??
:shutup:

skelstar

18th January 2006, 21:22

Best of luck mate.
Good on you for not naming the shop. Badly mis-interpretted publicity could stuff a business's...umm...business.

Sparky Bills

18th January 2006, 21:36

If you respect the shop that much, approach them and keep them informed of what you are doing. That way you have kept them in the loop, and they may find some extra motivation to give you a refund.
Just make sure you talk to the shop before you do any legal actions.
If nothing happens, then look after number 1! (YOURSELF!!)

Lou Girardin

19th January 2006, 07:54

Sorry Lou, he doesnt have to do squat to or for the importer, his contractual relationship is with the dealer. The dealer has to make good on it.

And the CGA has teeth. selya... go to www.legislation.govt.nz and check it out.

True, but in practice the dealer will not unilaterally make the call. Most bike shops can't carry the cost of giving away a free bike.
The importer will be the final decision maker, as per the faulty CBR thread.

Motig

19th January 2006, 08:20

Good Luck.You shouldn't have to put up with that.

selyahnitram

19th January 2006, 09:47

Thanks to every one for their support and info on courses of action.

I have spoken with the CAB this am and they have assured me I have recourse under the CG act.

I have since contacted my lawyer and sent the detailed log I have kept of all the issues, they have told me also that I must reject the bike back to the garage under the CG act, they will cite multiple reasons for this, they expect a quick resolution (albeit a costly one for me initially).

So thanks again for everyones help in this matter and I will post details of the resolution if I get one.

:Playnice:

Beemer

19th January 2006, 09:58

Good luck, it certainly sounds like you have the law on your side regarding rejecting the goods and getting a full refund. I had a similar problem recently (but with a $50 item of clothing, not a large purchase like a bike!) and the company was dragging their heels about it - they wanted me to return it to the shop I bought it from (100kms away) for a credit, but I explained that it was damaged (found a hole and it wasn't on special due to this) and I wanted a refund, so they said I could post it back. Got a cheque for the full price but I'd spent about $15 on petrol (trying to return it to a closer branch but they are a franchise and wouldn't take it), toll calls and postage, so I wrote them a letter stating how disappointed I was with their customer service. Not only did I get a letter of apology from their national retail manager, but I got a $100 voucher as compensation! And he followed up with a phone call to check I was happy.

I don't blame you for being scared to ride the bike - recalls for little things that need attention are one thing, but serious mechanical problems - and so many in such a short space of time - are quite another. I would definitely be asking for a full refund and I'd be damned careful about what I bought next! As for getting a lawyer, I would say that is the best bit of advice. Sure it costs money, but they can do things faster and better than most of us could. I'm involved in a legal matter at present to do with my business and although it has been expensive, there is no way I could have put my case forward and ensured everything was covered as well as he has.

Swoop

19th January 2006, 10:53

True, but in practice the dealer will not unilaterally make the call. Most bike shops can't carry the cost of giving away a free bike.
The importer will be the final decision maker, as per the faulty CBR thread.
Where is this dealer "giving away a free bike"?
They take it back and refund the purchasers money. If they have been good throughout the debacle, then the customer will more than likely want to do more business with that dealer.

As for the bike, this gets returned to the manufacturer and should be used as a diagnostic goldmine for how they will improve that machine.

The old axiom of waiting until all the bugs get sorted out before purchasing the "latest and greatest" still holds true.

Lou Girardin

19th January 2006, 11:22

Where is this dealer "giving away a free bike"?
They take it back and refund the purchasers money. If they have been good throughout the debacle, then the customer will more than likely want to do more business with that dealer.

As for the bike, this gets returned to the manufacturer and should be used as a diagnostic goldmine for how they will improve that machine.

The old axiom of waiting until all the bugs get sorted out before purchasing the "latest and greatest" still holds true.

Sorry to disillusion you, but if the dealer takes the bike back without the importers OK, the dealer gets stuck with a faulty bike. Even if he then sells it, ethically doubtful, he will still be seriously out of pocket from the deal.
The buyer will have to be very regular customer to make up that sort of loss.

Bartman10

19th January 2006, 11:44

Sorry to disillusion you, but if the dealer takes the bike back without the importers OK, the dealer gets stuck with a faulty bike...

Doesn't matter. The dealer makes the deal, and the dealer is responsible to ensure the goods are good. That is why one goes to a dealer. The fact that the dealer makes a deal with the importer is irrelevant.

The dealer must give your money back if the goods are faulty. End of story.

skelstar

19th January 2006, 11:48

I agree with you BM10, but relatioinships with the dealers just wouldnt work unless there was a bit of give and take. Youve got to both be empathetic and acomodating, unless the dealer isnt, and thats when you get nasty.

curious george

19th January 2006, 12:02

Perhaps the dealer would lend selyahnitram a bike untill this gets sorted?
If the dealer is on your side, that would be fantastic customer relations.
selyahnitram's problem is with the dealer, who he doesn't have a problem with.
The real issue and problem will be with the importer.
The dealer needs to get tough with the importer, and dealer and selyahnitram need to work together on this.

HenryDorsetCase

19th January 2006, 12:21

who here thinks (positively) that selya should buy a SV650? (after this is sorted obviously) Im sort of getting buyers regret about selling mine but I NEED MORE POWER. !! Might get me one of them 330kph Suzuki's everyone is talking about.

HenryDorsetCase

19th January 2006, 12:24

True, but in practice the dealer will not unilaterally make the call. Most bike shops can't carry the cost of giving away a free bike.
The importer will be the final decision maker, as per the faulty CBR thread.

sure, but my background means I look for the contract first......

and I realise that the contract between the dealer and the importer isnt covered by the CGA (or the Fair Trading Act) because the parties are in business.

but surely there must be some recourse (other than the obvious legal one) between the dealer and importer in their contract? surely?

(I'd love to read one....... if anyone has one handy)

selyahnitram

19th January 2006, 12:38

I have been in contact with the importer also, when I first looked at the bike I contacted the importer and asked him some questions about accessories, warranty and spare parts - thought I had done my homework!

But as the bike began to fall apart I also contacted the importer again myself (the dealer way being shafted by him also) the way the importer has responded to me was shocking to say the least, couldnt care less about quality of product or my situation just said he would get the bike fixed again and again and keep getting it fixed, didn't understand what all the fuss was over about over some "teething problems", like to meet him down a dark alley for sure......

I have discussed the emails sent to the importer with my dealer, and the dealer told me I was wasting my time trying to get my money back through him - just trying to save the dealer all this aggro, looks like it has now backfired on me - I have no choice but to take legal action with my dealer as the sale contract is with him - I would rather go after the importer but my lawyer has told me I cannot.

I really dont want to do this but feel I am backed in to a corner and so I will come out fighting :2guns:

selyahnitram

16th February 2006, 14:19

Just wanted to update everyone, I have had a few PM's about this subject but due to family illness in the UK I have not been able to update the story.

As you may remember I started legal proceeding against said motorbike shop owner here in Wellington as the law did not allow me to go after the importing / head company here in NZ (shame cos its those bastards that need a good kicking). I still will not name the company or the bike shop as I don’t want to cause further trouble, most of you have a very good idea of whom this is not from me but from blabby mouths at the dealership who have talked about it. I you feel you want to name them on this forum then that is up to you.

Anyway after legal proceeding started the bike shop gave me a cash offer which my solicitor told me to refuse as they had no leg to stand on and I had been treated so Sh** as a "new" bike owner.
I was called back to the shop and given the full amount! - I was told they had on-sold my bike to some other poor suspecting fuc***!! and could afford to settle out of court.

If the poor suspecting bastard who has my old bike is on this forum I apologise for them selling you that lemon - and I hope you don’t have to suffer the crap I went through!

So I have all my money back and a 4 month hell ride to remember.
I don’t blame the dealership for all the issues, more so the back up and service not given by the importer distributor - the main man from this company is a jerk, I tried to talk to him about issues and he told me there was nothing to discuss, I think the dealership get the same response most of the time.

I am now the proud owner of an immaculate, and I mean immaculate, rare black and yellow CBR600FY, I ride to work (Wellington) and back (Paremata) every day and have over the past 4 weeks had no problems at all, probably the best bike to ride I have ever owned!

So all's well in the world again for me, if anyone out there wants to buy a bike from this dealership, I still would, just not that particular make. And if you do want to buy one i am happy to discuss my experiences with you.

***Would love to go out on a ride with any guys in the Welly area sometime.

:Punk: