A dangerous myth: Loud pipes alert car drivers

[Pixie]

As far back as I can remember I've heard and read comments from Bikers that loud pipes are a safety device,warning idiot car drivers that you are approaching.
I've known this is dangerous bullshit for years because I have driven cars and know that a bike with loud pipes is not audible from any significant distance in a car.Maybe these bikers that believe this have never been in a car,or maybe they are just deluded.

Yesterday I was on the southern motorway, on my way to a job in Hamilton.
I was in an open top car and had been watching a bike in my mirror as he slowly approached from a fair distance back.
I was doing 120 kmh and the bike was doing about 125 kmh.
As he got closer, I saw it was a chopped Harley ,extended forks,the whole bit.
I didn't hear the motor till he was level with my rear bumper and as he passed me I also saw that he had straight pipes with the only concession to noise reduction being fishtails on the pipes.

So that's how close an unmuffled Harley can get before a car driver will hear it.
Don't rely on your loud pipes waking up some dozy ass in a car,it'll kill you.

[SPORK]

Turn down your stereo. You just couldn't hear him over "The best of Justin Timberlake"

[Grahameeboy]

I have always doubted the loud exhaust claim....maybe in town they are more audible but how often when you hear a police/ambo or fire engine siren do you you know where it is coming from??

[SimJen]

one thing a louder zorst will do, is stop bloody Pukekoes running out. :)
plus they sound cool :)

[sunhuntin]

I have always doubted the loud exhaust claim....maybe in town they are more audible but how often when you hear a police/ambo or fire engine siren do you you know where it is coming from??

ive often wondered that one, too. i know when im riding, i can hear little beyond the wind and on occasion, the noise of the bike. if a cop car was behind me, i likely wouldnt know till they went past, or if they were in my mirrors.

[Grahameeboy]

one thing a louder zorst will do, is stop bloody Pukekoes running out. :)
plus they sound cool :)

why would someone from Pukekohe run out......he he.....

[sAsLEX]

I didn't hear the motor till he was level with my rear bumper

ah I see........you mention you could hear him as he traversed your blind spot *, this is interesting as you mention loud pipes dont alert drviers.

In the other thread where I bought up the loud pipe issue your above anecdotal evidence shows that loud pipes would of prevented the incedent occurring would it not? seeing as the driver took all proper precautions in trying to check the lane beside him visually, the extra aural cue would of alerted him to the presence of the bike next to him.


*ok I know you were in a hair dressers car of some sort but for the point of my point you had a c pillar blocking you view*

[Cookie]

Pixie, that's interesting. I am longing for the day when I can have some decent pipes.

I suppose you could back off the juice so they crackle a bit when you come up to intersections where every dozy bugger is either gazing into space or texting their boyfriend? That could be handy.

[Grahameeboy]

ah I see........you mention you could hear him as he traversed your blind spot *, this is interesting as you mention loud pipes dont alert drviers.

In the other thread where I bought up the loud pipe issue your above anecdotal evidence shows that loud pipes would of prevented the incedent occurring would it not? seeing as the driver took all proper precautions in trying to check the lane beside him visually, the extra aural cue would of alerted him to the presence of the bike next to him.


*ok I know you were in a hair dressers car of some sort but for the point of my point you had a c pillar blocking you view*

....no no and no again.....they said they saw him before but that so they they still have a valid point....if they had not looked in their mirror the audible bit would have been too late as he was level with bumper...:mega:

[Lou Girardin]

*ok I know you were in a hair dressers car of some sort but for the point of my point you had a c pillar blocking you view*

There's no c pillar on a convertible.

[Grahameeboy]

There's no c pillar on a convertible.

Arrhh...Lou...what about the roll cage bar

[pritch]

My bike has the standard pipes and can't sound any more threatening than a sewing machine. A loud exhaust might hopefully wake up some of the more dozy pedestrians though...

[chickenfunkstar]

When a mate of mine and I swapped bikes, I could hear the sound of my bike (being ridden by my friend) behind me. That was through a helmet and ear plugs.

The only time a car can take you out is when you are in front of its rear bumper. When you are travelling next to a car which can't be bothered doing a head check, surely there's at least some benefit in being able to be heard?

[sAsLEX]

There's no c pillar on a convertible.

umm yeah I know, prob no b pillar either hence the * and bit saying I was asssuming there was one and its associated blind spot.

[Grahameeboy]

When a mate of mine and I swapped bikes, I could hear the sound of my bike (being ridden by my friend) behind me. That was through a helmet and ear plugs.

The only time a car can take you out is when you are in front of its rear bumper. When you are travelling next to a car which can't be bothered doing a head check, surely there's at least some benefit in being able to be heard?

In guess it all depends on where you are.....how good the acoustics are cause my standard SV1000 pipes sound lounder in some places.......

[Motu]

Anyone who releys on noisy exhausts,headlamps on,or on highbeam,fluro jackets,daytime running lamps or a rotating beacon on top of their helmet - is flirting with danger.They can be added to your awareness package,but don't make them the basis of your safety kit.

[chickenfunkstar]

I've also got a theory that the more you look / sound like a gang member on a Harley the less likely car drivers are to fuck with you. Sort of like the more of a threat you look like to them, the less chance they'll try any funny business with you.

Coming back from Coromandel on SH2 with a friend on a 250, a lot more cars moved over for us to overtake when I was leading, compared to when he was leading. I'm sure its because the SV makes the more 'threating' sound. There's not really much else which I can think of which is different between the 2 bikes from a cagers piont of view. (SV is probably a touch bigger but not by much)

[Grahameeboy]

Anyone who releys on noisy exhausts,headlamps on,or on highbeam,fluro jackets,daytime running lamps or a rotating beacon on top of their helmet - is flirting with danger.They can be added to your awareness package,but don't make them the basis of your safety kit.

Too true...if they don't look they will not see headlights, bright vests etc and it figures that their brain will not be switched on so noise will go in and out both ears........I remember when Audi brought out the Quattro with 4wd.......drivers thought they could go around bends faster and they crashed a lot...well it sort of links

[Beemer]

I always wondered about that myth too - sure, the pedestrians can hear you (and they show their appreciation by raising one finger!) but considering car drivers don't seem to hear sirens and trains, I doubted that loud pipes would make much difference.

[Grahameeboy]

I've also got a theory that the more you look / sound like a gang member on a Harley the less likely car drivers are to fuck with you. Sort of like the more of a threat you look like to them, the less chance they'll try any funny business with you.

Coming back from Coromandel on SH2 with a friend on a 250, a lot more cars moved over for us to overtake when I was leading, compared to when he was leading. I'm sure its because the SV makes the more 'threating' sound. There's not really much else which I can think of which is different between the 2 bikes from a cagers piont of view. (SV is probably a touch bigger but not by much)

I pulled over for you on the way up...........but it could be that your bike is yellow also.....my bike is red and I find cars pull over plus I have 2 headlights like yours too.....blimey it could be many things or just that the cager was nice

[sAsLEX]

I always wondered about that myth too - sure, the pedestrians can hear you

dont count on that i think it was vifferman firestormer or whatever his handle is now, you all know the on with the descriptive language, that had a pedestrian move in front of his loud bike

[Big Dave]

Anyone who releys on noisy exhausts,headlamps on,or on highbeam,fluro jackets,daytime running lamps or a rotating beacon on top of their helmet - is flirting with danger.They can be added to your awareness package,but don't make them the basis of your safety kit.

I'm with you - I don't think any of your list make hardly any difference at all.
I ride like I'm invisible and every bastard is going to hit me anyway - regardless of how much geeky shit I don't have on.....Mr Orange Fly pants and jersey.

I also know I have far, far fewer 'incidents' looking and sounding like a 'bikee' on the thunderbird than I do as the 'adventurer/motorcyclist' on the chook chaser.

Black leather, a snarl and some loud pipes get you more room in traffic than any flouro vest.

[chickenfunkstar]

I pulled over for you on the way up...........but it could be that your bike is yellow also.....my bike is red and I find cars pull over plus I have 2 headlights like yours too.....blimey it could be many things or just that the cager was nice

Yeah, thats true. It's probably a variety of reasons. I'd be surprised if it had nothing at all to do with noise though. We probably passed 100 of so cars from Coro to the motorway, so it was more of a rule in general rather than 1 nice cager.

Are you keeping the stock pipes on your SV? It'd sound awesome with some a/m cans.

[Grahameeboy]

Yeah, thats true. It's probably a variety of reasons. I'd be surprised if it had nothing at all to do with noise though. We probably passed 100 of so cars from Coro to the motorway, so it was more of a rule in general rather than 1 nice cager.

Are you keeping the stock pipes on your SV? It'd sound awesome with some a/m cans.

Nah.....cannot really afford it and I have never been an exhaust junkie.....yeah I now must be the odd one eh.....reckon you would be right though...

[DMNTD]

I had R3 Yoshi's on my TL and is did make a difference...They DID hear me BUT only because I used the gas to make sure they did,ie: button off a bit when approaching their blind spot. My GSX with a single Yoshi makes a higher pitched sound and seems to be heard better when given a blip'n and can be heard from further off. Maybe something to do with 12000 rev's though:wait:
Certainly isn't full proof but surely any help is good.
Have noticed riding Duc-Gurl's TL with standard:puke: pipes on that there isn't the same presence...therefore I'm even more wary.
Trust no one....stay alive:yes:

[WRT]

Well, sod the lot of ya, but I noticed a difference when I got the cans put on the Aprilia. Before, there were people pulling into my lane, freaking out when I "suddenly" appeared next to them, and so on. After, its like the parting of the red sea . . . every bugger knows I'm there before I actually arrive, and most make an effort to move out of my way. And I like it like that.

I also like the healthy boost in hp too . . .

The place where they have the biggest effect is when you are in heavy, slow moving traffic, and thats the time when I like to have the biggest "visibility" on the road. If I am in any doubt as to whether someone knows I am there or not, I give it a blast on the gas with the clutch in, and that gets their attention. Well, its either that, or the serenading coming from the cacophony of car alarms that have suddenly gone off in the immediate vicinty.

Which brings me to another point, if you are in traffic in a car and a big twin comes lanesplitting up past you, with aftermarket pipes the chances are that you will "feel" the pressure waves before you hear the bike itself. Have had that happen a couple of times while sitting in traffic on the mway. Admittedly this only happens if you dont have the radio blasting at full bore.

[Damon]

A friend of mine complains he cant here his zx7 over my bike when he's in front of me let alone behind (packing is for homo's!), and i dont know about at 120kms but when i'm lane splitting through the city and give the gas a good blip cars go diving for cover all over the place, so yeah my loud exhaust makes a difference.

[Motu]

I'm with you - I don't think any of your list make hardly any difference at all.
I ride like I'm invisible and every bastard is going to hit me anyway - regardless of how much geeky shit I don't have on.....Mr Orange Fly pants and jersey.

I also know I have far, far fewer 'incidents' looking and sounding like a 'bikee' on the thunderbird than I do as the 'adventurer/motorcyclist' on the chook chaser.

Black leather, a snarl and some loud pipes get you more room in traffic than any flouro vest.

You haven't seen my orange gloves yet - tell the Hippy not to overstock on orange KTM clothing,then when I'm brousing the end of season sales I won't have to take what everyone else won't touch.I've come to terms with the fact that no colour makes me look good,and if I'm going to look stupid,let's make it real stupid.

But a younger me would ride in black leather and black open face with pony tail and beard flowing in the breeze on a chrome and black bike with very noisy exhausts - cars would stop in the middle of roundabouts to let me through.I think that biker image has MORE effect on car drivers than anything else you do to make yourself noticed.

[sAsLEX]

Its just an excuse to the LTSA to let us have loud pipes.
If you think we have loud pipes to warn other drivers of our impending arrival your wrong.


ssshhhh the spies are everywhere!

[JWALKER]

ssshhhh the spies are everywhere!

lol, tis true the are everywhere

[JWALKER]

i agree you shouldn't put everything on the fact you gave a loud pipes and a car will hear and see ya. but, at the same time i think they are a good warning to people who are oblivous to everythin going on aronud them, my bike has aftermarket pipes on it and i have had a few different people say they can hear me come up the other end the street before i arrive and i know that cage drivers can hear them, wether im frony, back or beside them

[Lou Girardin]

With even family cars being so well sealed that they have db ratings of 75 - 80, how do you really think a 98 db exhaust is going to be heard from a distance?

[yungatart]

Exactly! Especially when they have the stereo going or kids fighting in the back seat, the chances of hearing anything outside the car are negligible...

[sAsLEX]

With even family cars being so well sealed that they have db ratings of 75 - 80, how do you really think a 98 db exhaust is going to be heard from a distance?

What do you meanby 75db? is that the normal noise heard cruising round, or is this the attenuation from outside sources.

and some random comparison levels

Sounds dB SPL
Rocket Launching 180
Jet Engine 140
Thunderclap, Air Raid Siren 1 Meter 130
Jet takeoff (200 ft) 120
Rock Concert, Discotheque 110
Firecrackers, Subway Train 100
Heavy Truck (15 Meter), City Traffic 90
Alarm Clock (1 Meter), Hair Dryer 80
Noisy Restaurant, Business Office 70
Air Conditioning Unit, Conversational Speech 60
Light Traffic (50 Meter), Average Home 50
Living Room, Quiet Office 40
Library, Soft Whisper (5 Meter) 30
Broadcasting Studio, Rustling Leaves 20
Hearing Threshold 0

[dawnrazor]

Loud pipes DON'T save lives, alls they do if annoy the neighbours, attract unwanted attention from PC plod and potentially make you deaf, depending on the quality of your helmet and if you where earplugs. Why advertise your presence to the people who are in no danger of getting in your way, but have the potential to stop your fun.

I went for a ride with a mate who was on a 996 monster with lafranconi pipes, I litterally could not ride behind him, the shock wave was "shocking", even four feet back, I couldn't hear my own engine or road noise, had to get ahead of him - the difference was amazing, lord knows what its like to ride.

Give me induction howl any day of the week, puts a grin on my face every time it winds up, fantastic.

[vifferman]

dont count on that i think it was vifferman firestormer or whatever his handle is now, you all know the on with the descriptive language, that had a pedestrian move in front of his loud bike
Wha...?!? [snort] [yawn]
You woke me up.

Nah, it wasn't partickerly loud - just a VFR750 with a mysterious hole through the main zorst baffle, and the usual cakemixer sounds from the engine. But (however) I did tootle melodiously with the horn, to alert the errant pedestrians that I was on my way towards them. Unfortunately, one chose to ignore my tune, until she took fright at being stranded in the middle of the road, with traffic whizzing by, and thought it was safer to leap in front of my motorvelocipede. Even more unfortunately, the aforementioned motorvelocipede took umbrage at this unannounced invasion of its personal space, and attacked her leg.
Then her leg bone took issue with this rude introduction of tyre to limb and broke here and there.

Back to the loud pipes - you often can hear them before they get to you, but sometimes the sudden loud noise for those who either don't hear them or can't work out where the noise is coming from (as is the case with low frequency sound waves) get such a fright that the result is not conducive to road safety or indeed saving lives.

My current pipe is loud(ish) because I can. Or because my can can. (Not the Gallic dance, sorry). However, I choose (mostly) not to run it in in "Look at me! LOOK AT ME!!!" mode, as it's too friggin' loud, attracts to much attention, and gets on my nerves.

[chickenfunkstar]

I'm not suggesting that loud pipes give you a licence to ride aggressivly though traffic, but I still fail to see the argument that they make no difference to your saftey at all. If you're passing cars on the motorway (i.e. you have to ride through a cars blind spot), isn't it better to make cars as aware of your presence as you possibly can?

[dawnrazor]

Does everyone not remember the dopple effect from school?

A bike traveling at speed towards a stationary object will push a sound wave infront of it and compress that wave as it moves forward, sooooo depending on the frequency and pitch of the pipe and the speed traveled at the precieved sound will certainly be of higher frequency, with harmonics that are inaudible to humans, (might be good for dogs though!), also consider that a pipe faces in the opposite direction to common forward momentum and you get to a situation where the pipe has to be VERY loud for its effect on the stationary object in its path to be considerable, but the moment it passes that object it deafens everyone in its wake, as now the sound wave is stretched and predictably completely audible. Hmmmm, thats useful, lets everyone know where you've been and frightens small animals.

[Grahameeboy]

I think we need to 'Can' this post and 'Muffle' it right now chaps.......:motu:

[dawnrazor]

I think we need to 'Can' this post and 'Muffle' it right now chaps.......:motu:

I'm baffled

:laugh:

[Grahameeboy]

I'm baffled

:laugh:

Oh very good Ms Razor.........now will you 'pipe' down.....he he lol

[Jackrat]

Sounds to me that people who drive poofters cars are just deaf.
I hear bikes coming up behind me on a regular basis,and not all of them are Harleys running straight pipes either.

[ZeroIndex]

all bikes really need to keep cars clear is a nice set of circular saws or laser beams... LOL.. ok, don't read this post :p

[Grahameeboy]

all bikes really need to keep cars clear is a nice set of circular saws or laser beams... LOL.. ok, don't read this post :p

Pardon I didn't hear that.....

[Motu]

Loud pipes aren't to effective at motorway speeds,but they are pretty good at waking up dozy drivers at intersections,if you have something that barks on the over run they certainly look up if you chop it down and back off.My old BSA running Goldy cams and an open megaphone sounded like it was tearing the very fabric of time and space,at 5.30am going to work it sounded like 425db at the very least.

[marty]

oooh mummy my pipes might be too loud and the police might want to talk to me and no one can hear me and i should ride a mountain bike cause they are environmentally friendly and why wasn't there any signs to tell me there was some gravel on the corner and my bike won't go 300km/h and i can't speed without being scared of getting a ticket and it's not my fault and i like to take up the junga but i don't know where to go to get it.........

[Patch]

I have a full stainless system with Yoshi RS-3 pipes, which were already in place when I bought my baby last month. I don't particularly think any safety gadget is better than the next one as most people have know idea what the hell their mirrors are for, to busy combing their hair, doing lippy or reading newspaper and eating breakfast - idiots, we all know them.

In these cases, pipes ain't gonna help you, but yes, in some instances they do help, especially at the lights when the :zzzz: prick is still stationary at the green, couple of good blips and we're away :laugh:


I have had mentioned to me on a couple of occasions, other bikers know when I am behind them :whistle: or I knew it was you, I heard you coming a block away :rockon:

I wouldn't be without 'em. Personal choice as it is. Each to their own.

[N4CR]

I disagree. I used to have a fair amount of incidents a week where evasive action was needed to avoid crashes with my original exhaust. I was not putting myself into trouble, people were simply slowing quickly and changing lanes, pulling out of ques etc etc the usual shit that retards end up doing. By riding with caution I managed to avoid them all.

After two particularly bad weeks of this crap I decided to chuck on a straight through pipe. No more pullouts no more nothing. It was great. I have very very few incidents where I have to take action any more, mabey once or twice a month.

[Gremlin]

I think a loud pipe does help. Maybe not at motorway speeds, but it does when doing 50-70 ish. I have had people turning around looking for the noise, so they can definitely hear it when I'm a car back. They also move into the slow lane occasionally, which is nice :devil2:

I won't rely on it, but if it does help, then I won't complain.

[scumdog]

bit.
I didn't hear the motor till he was level with my rear bumper and as he passed me I also saw that he had straight pipes with the only concession to noise reduction being fishtails on the pipes.

So that's how close an unmuffled Harley can get before a car driver will hear it.
Don't rely on your loud pipes waking up some dozy ass in a car,it'll kill you.

Been saying that ALL along, you see the the stickers "Loud Pipes save Lives" but it's a crock - it MAY help but not as much as you think, especially if the engine is not under load.

[Jantar]

I fully agree with ScumDog. Riding with him last week, when I was behind his Sporty I could hear it quite clearly, but when I was in the lead if I couldn't see him in my mirrors I wouldn't have known he was there.

Noisy exhausts only let others know that you have already passed by.

[SlowHand]

Black leather, a snarl and some loud pipes get you more room in traffic than any flouro vest.

So if I wear my black leathers after a bad night of curry and a dozen beers, and proceed to run around making angry cat noises, I could score with a chick in a cheap motel room somewhere?

[Waylander]

Cagers certainly have a surprised look on thier faces when I'm passing between them on my way home from Judea to Papamoa at 5:05pm.

Can only imagine what it's like for the lady on my right in the minivan with the window down as we sit and wait for the lights to change green. Because ofcourse the dick on my left happens to be a boy racer and will no doubt insist on being in front of me when we get across the intersection. He never is though...;)

Had a guy in a Merc today start to cut me off. Grab the clutch roll the throttle, suddenly he moves back into his lane. (I'm about half a meter behind his rear bumper in the right lane with him in the left)

[skidMark]

Anyone who releys on noisy exhausts,headlamps on,or on highbeam,fluro jackets,daytime running lamps or a rotating beacon on top of their helmet - is flirting with danger.They can be added to your awareness package,but don't make them the basis of your safety kit.


ive got a safety jacket on and headlights on high beam during the day so ill ride but naked cus im such a good rider i won't fall off and because of the lights and jacket cars will see me...

it still amazes me everyday how people on scooters going down the road at 50 kph wear nothing but a hemlet as i have learnt 50 kph is 50 kph doesnt matter if your riding a hayabusa or a pgo comet 50cc it don't matter

and my exhaust is loud and it gets old ladys attention at least get the odd evil look and the one finger salute from the odd granny hahahaha i just go in my helmet laughing my arse off

[dawnrazor]

Oh very good Ms Razor.........now will you 'pipe' down.....he he lol

your just being a catalyst here........no sorry that was shite, was trying to make a catalytic converter pun.....balls....I've clearly exhausted all possible options

[dawnrazor]

So if I wear my black leathers after a bad night of curry and a dozen beers, and proceed to run around making angry cat noises, I could score with a chick in a cheap motel room somewhere?
curry +beer, for fucks sake they'll smell ya before they see you

[Lou Girardin]

What do you meanby 75db? is that the normal noise heard cruising round, or is this the attenuation from outside sources.

0

Internal noise level at 100 km/h is the test.

[sAsLEX]

Been saying that ALL along,it MAY help but not as much as you think.

So you are against a measure which many people have said has helped them avoid being knocked off their bikes? Surely as enforcer of the saftey nazis you would see this as a positive thing?

Ok I will put it another way. Dropping the walking speed to 40 over may reduce the road toll, but not as much as they think. Should we scrap that piece of legislation then?

[Kickaha]

So you are against a measure which many people have said has helped them avoid being knocked off their bikes? Surely as enforcer of the saftey nazis you would see this as a positive thing?



I take it that you and evryone else that advocates loud pipes also have no problem with boy racers and their loud exhausts as well then?


I haven't ever believed the loud pipes saves lives since I had a conti equipped Ducati,didn't ever make any difference travelling in traffic, by the time they heard me I was along side,

I've always thought it was an excuse either
A) dreamed up by someone in advertising to sell a product
B) dreamed up by motorcyclists to justify having them

[Cookie]

Loud pipes aren't to effective at motorway speeds,but they are pretty good at waking up dozy drivers at intersections,if you have something that barks on the over run they certainly look up if you chop it down and back off.My old BSA running Goldy cams and an open megaphone sounded like it was tearing the very fabric of time and space,at 5.30am going to work it sounded like 425db at the very least.

This morning a f*ckwit started to pull out in front of me at an intersection where I had the right of way. I was literally in front of him when he started to come at me from my right.

He was INCHES away from me he finally braked. I had one of those weird bullet-time experiences where I thought about where the point of impact was going to be and wondered how long a smashed shin takes to heal.

All I could do was give him my special "stare of death" as I went past and he stared back as if to say "Where the hell did you come from?".

The sooner I get some LOUD farking pipes the better!

I can't slow to a crawl and sound my horn at every bloody intersection but a little more noise will at least double the sensory input I provide to morons like that - uping my chances a bit.

I am not worried so much about the motorway right now. I am betting I will get hit first at an intersection.

[sAsLEX]

I take it that you and evryone else that advocates loud pipes also have no problem with boy racers and their loud exhausts as well then?


there is loud and then there is driving up and down the street at some weird time of the night pissing people off.

I am only arguing that infact they do have an impact on the safety issue. Quite a few have noted how their loud pipes have changed the way traffic reacts around them.



And a crappy little 1.3 stalet with open pipes sounds like shit, a Duke or TL etc dont.

[Kickaha]

I am only arguing that infact they do have an impact on the safety issue. Quite a few have noted how their loud pipes have changed the way traffic reacts around them.

A few have also noted that it doesn't


And a crappy little 1.3 stalet with open pipes sounds like shit, a Duke or TL etc dont.

Well if "Loud pipes (do) Save Lives" I reckon that has an impact on traffic safety to then, as it's giving you a warning some dork who probably can't drive for shit is approaching :lol:

[vifferman]

I take it that you and evryone else that advocates loud pipes also have no problem with boy racers and their loud exhausts as well then?
Depends what they sound like, and how loud they are.
If they're just LOUD and droney, then they suck, and deserve the expanding foam treatment. If they're sporty, and not obnoxiously loud, like a Ferrari or Lambo or Alfa, then I have no problem with them. Same with bikes - if they sound nice, and don't make my ears bleed, then I'm OK with them.

Do loud pipes save lives? Very doubtful.
But if loud(ish) pipes save the odd accident and injury, then that's worthwhile. Let's face it, most accidents happen at sub 70 km/h speeds, and that's where most loudish pipes would be able to be heard, and noticed by dozy drivers.
But (however) if too many of us (or them) are making too much noise and pissing people off and inciting the SafetyNazis to make laws controlling what our vehicles sound like, then that's a VeryBadThing. I don't want to ride a bike that sounds like a sewing machine. It's bad enough that it sounds like a cakemixer on steroids.

[sAsLEX]

A few have also noted that it doesn't


Many have said the silly 100 limit does not affect safety and that travelling faster is not an automatic deathwish, others disagree.

Different strokes for different folks I guess, there is a slight difference between driving in say Gore and Auckland MW at peak hour so there could be hugely different perspectives being used to pass judgement.

I know I travel every day to uni, when I go, through the glorious Northern MW often at peak times, and having a slightly loud exhaust does get you noticed.

[SVrunner]

I ve had quiet pipe & loud pipe.
Since most drivers pull out right in front & any help with there eysight by increasing there hearing sense must help as it has for me.

[dawnrazor]

okay consider this

boy racer pulls out in front of you, doesn't hear you because of the stero up to 11 and his own hot pipe.

BMW 5 series or any luxury car pulls out doesn't hear you because the interior it whisper quiet and designed to reduce outside noise.

white van pulls out doesn't hear you, the diesel engine on this and alot of 4X4 are so loud as to defeat most external influences.

Small hatch pulls out doesn't hear you, because it is such a cheap car that it rattles and transmits so much road noise and engine noise that the stero has to be wound up just to hear it.

toyota coralla pulls out hears you, but has so much faith in his faultless car that he hits you anyways.

little old lady dies of heart failure from the shock!

[Damon]

With even family cars being so well sealed that they have db ratings of 75 - 80, how do you really think a 98 db exhaust is going to be heard from a distance?

I think you'll find that 98db is only an idle level for most vtwins, i've had my tested at 104db at idle, granted the guy stuck it right up to the pipe but when i gave it a blip it went of his meter which went to 114db, i'm not saying they "save lives" but people definitely reacted differently to when i was on my 250,

as for the boyracer dig, i dont mind their loud exhausts under normal driving conditions, it's only when their screwing the tits of them past my house at 1am that i have a problem but that also goes for any twat that thinks racing on residential streets is a good idea

[terbang]

The louder the better in my view just cos they sound cool. But I also reckon that jet aircraft should blow smoke and shriek lots of noise cos I'm a bit of a revhead at heart I guess (perhaps a dinosaur). When I was living in Switzerland a local Kindergarten was closed down because of the kids noise epitomizing where we can end up if we all get too stupid on noise (like the swiss have).
I drive a cage, am deaf as a post, and in a lot of instances I am certainly audibly alerted to the noisey ones as they approach. :slap:

[Fatjim]

In 2 years with the VTR I have not have one person accidentally pull over on me in traffic (touch wood), I ride 25k's each way in traffic in Welly on the motorway at 8 in the morning/5 at night. I've even had police cars move over for me. My pipes have "for race use only" stamped on them, maybe thats the reason.

I see cars do this to quieter bikes though.

I'm convinced its self preservation lurking deep within everybody, some deeper than others.

Now about the post with the old lady dying of a heart attack. 90% of those examples would have heard me before I got within striking distance.They may not know my direction because my bike is all base, but they wake up.

As for riding like your invisable. I ride and drive like that anyway, and so should everyone. If we did that the deaths would fall to less than the 300 the gummint aiming at because we'd all be alert drivers, except for Sniper.

[JWALKER]

loud pipes do help with safety.they do help you get noticed, but, if you think just cause your loud pipes, then you don't have to worry about anyone on the road, then i think you are a ignorant rider., but, they do help you get noticed

[dawnrazor]

In 2 years with the VTR I have not have one person accidentally pull over on me in traffic (touch wood),

I hope your not, this is family website you know :buggerd:

[terbang]

It all adds up in the end though dont rely on loud pipes but there may have been instances, that you are unaware of, when they saved you. Its a bit like back protectors (I wear one) "Gee I binned, lucky I can still walk because I had a back protector"..You will never know.

[JWALKER]

It all adds up in the end though dont rely on loud pipes but there may have been instances, that you are unaware of, when they saved you. Its a bit like back protectors (I wear one) "Gee I binned, lucky I can still walk because I had a back protector"..You will never know.

yip, i agree

[sAsLEX]

sorry Salesex, but your wrong wrong wrong.

:blink: you seem to be agreeing with me, I am now confused!? :blink:

[Deano]

Noisy exhausts only let others know that you have already passed by.

Drivers used to look into their rear view mirror when I approached from behind :buggerd: on an SP-1 with Neptunz. Rolling off the throttle produced enough noise to have the desired effect.

I ride like everyone is out to get me, but being heard as above has to help.

[SlowHand]

boy racer pulls out in front of you, doesn't hear you because of the stero up to 11

but why not just have a system where 10 is louder?


Had a guy in a Merc today start to cut me off. Grab the clutch roll the throttle, suddenly he moves back into his lane. (I'm about half a meter behind his rear bumper in the right lane with him in the left)

Use the horn. That's what it's there for.

[dawnrazor]

but why not just have a system where 10 is louder?

Haven't you ever heard of "spinal tap - the movie"

[Wolf]

Anyone who releys on noisy exhausts,headlamps on,or on highbeam,fluro jackets,daytime running lamps or a rotating beacon on top of their helmet - is flirting with danger.They can be added to your awareness package,but don't make them the basis of your safety kit.
I'm with you on this. It doesn't matter what you do to increase awareness, if the other road users are lost in their own little dream world they won't pick up any of it. I ride and drive (and walk) by the assumption that they do not know I'm there and may behave accordingly at any stage. I've seen enough people pull out in front of me when I'm in a cage, when I could have sworn they were looking directly at me, not to trust any other road user's perception.

Drive/ride like everyone else is an idiot. I could ride a tarmac-coloured electric motorbike while wearing tarmac-coloured gear and not significantly decrease my safety because my safety is dependant on me seeing them, not on them seeing or hearing me.

[SlowHand]

Dawn you twat, do you want me to beat you with my cucumber? Or lock you in a cocoon. Im sure that's what the 'reporter' said to Mr 11.

[dawnrazor]

Dawn you twat, do you want me to beat you with my cucumber? Or lock you in a cocoon. Im sure that's what the 'reporter' said to Mr 11.
was that in inches or feet

[Pixie]

ah I see........you mention you could hear him as he traversed your blind spot *, this is interesting as you mention loud pipes dont alert drviers.

In the other thread where I bought up the loud pipe issue your above anecdotal evidence shows that loud pipes would of prevented the incedent occurring would it not? seeing as the driver took all proper precautions in trying to check the lane beside him visually, the extra aural cue would of alerted him to the presence of the bike next to him.


*ok I know you were in a hair dressers car of some sort but for the point of my point you had a c pillar blocking you view*
Blindspot?
Open top car,Dumbass :rolleyes:

[Pixie]

Anyone who releys on noisy exhausts,headlamps on,or on highbeam,fluro jackets,daytime running lamps or a rotating beacon on top of their helmet - is flirting with danger.They can be added to your awareness package,but don't make them the basis of your safety kit.
My point exactly

[Pixie]

I also know I have far, far fewer 'incidents' looking and sounding like a 'bikee' on the thunderbird than I do as the 'adventurer/motorcyclist' on the chook chaser.

Black leather, a snarl and some loud pipes get you more room in traffic than any flouro vest.
My theory is that they may "see" you but the info only registers on their conscious mind if you fit their idea of a threat.

I still argue that the loud pipes will not be heard.
I'm not against loud pipes,by the way. After all,I have a micron race can "not for street use" on my bike.

[Pixie]

I had R3 Yoshi's on my TL and is did make a difference...They DID hear me BUT only because I used the gas to make sure they did,ie: button off a bit when approaching their blind spot. My GSX with a single Yoshi makes a higher pitched sound and seems to be heard better when given a blip'n and can be heard from further off. Maybe something to do with 12000 rev's though:wait:
Certainly isn't full proof but surely any help is good.
Have noticed riding Duc-Gurl's TL with standard:puke: pipes on that there isn't the same presence...therefore I'm even more wary.
Trust no one....stay alive:yes:
If they don't hear an ambulance's siren that's right behind them,they won't hear anything.
I suspect they responded to the movement of your bike in their peripheral vision, in the mirrors or out the window.

[Pixie]

Which brings me to another point, if you are in traffic in a car and a big twin comes lanesplitting up past you, with aftermarket pipes the chances are that you will "feel" the pressure waves before you hear the bike itself. Have had that happen a couple of times while sitting in traffic on the mway. Admittedly this only happens if you dont have the radio blasting at full bore.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Are you sure they aren't feeling the distortion of the space-time continuum,caused by the gravity feild around your ego?:nya:

[Pixie]

Sounds to me that people who drive poofters cars are just deaf.
I hear bikes coming up behind me on a regular basis,and not all of them are Harleys running straight pipes either.
Probably 'cos the old nails you own are so slow

[Pixie]

Been saying that ALL along, you see the the stickers "Loud Pipes save Lives" but it's a crock - it MAY help but not as much as you think, especially if the engine is not under load.
Who would know better than police or ambulance drivers.
I've heard and seen the stories of joe public failing to pull over or give way at intersections to emergency vehicles with sirens on.
Do these people think their pipes,pointing backwards, are louder that a 120 db siren pointing forwards.
Dreamers

[Pixie]

All I could do was give him my special "stare of death"


The correct term is "withering stare"

[Pixie]

I think you'll find that 98db is only an idle level for most vtwins, i've had my tested at 104db at idle, granted the guy stuck it right up to the pipe but when i gave it a blip it went of his meter which went to 114db,
If you stuck the sound meter in one of the cylinders you'd probably get a reading approaching 200 db.
Making a reading using wrong technique is pointless.

[Pixie]

I dont rekon harley pipes are as loud as sports bikes unless they are pulling hard rev's......they just putter putter along
at 125 kmh,he would have been flat out wouldn't he?

[dawnrazor]

I dont rekon harley pipes are as loud as sports bikes unless they are pulling hard rev's......they just putter putter along

SO harley riders refer to the noise their bikes make as "rolling thunder", why exactly?

[pritch]

My theory is that they may "see" you but the info only registers on their conscious mind if you fit their idea of a threat.

This was actually a finding in some tests in the USA years ago, most drivers only registered "threats".

Our drivers probably aren't any smarter than those in the USA and since those tests were done we have the advent of cellphones....

[scumdog]

I dont really like harleys all that much, i mean i accept someone has their own right to choose what they ride...they just seem ornamental to me?
Nothing wrong with 'ornamental' sunshine, that's what keeps Autosol in business!!
And when you're a bit older you realise that 'fast' isn't what it is all about ALL the time.

[terbang]

Lotsa good ideas here however its allways a series of events that can cause an accident so therefore it also stands that a series of actions can help prevent an accident (managing your risk).
A combination of good riding habits (ride like you are invisible ETC), High visibility (Dayglo vests and bright helmets ETC) and Noisey pipes to attract attention (to those that can hear you) would add up to it being as safe as it gets (not as safe as home on the sofa) or managing your risks as best you can when it comes to mixing it with cages on our roads. And it is all about personal choice.

[Rashika]

Nothing wrong with 'ornamental' sunshine, that's what keeps Autosol in business!!
And when you're a bit older you realise that 'fast' isn't what it is all about ALL the time.
See now THATS what the HD has going for it....so damn shiny from all the autosol on the chrome that it blinds all the drivers from behind! :whistle:

[sAsLEX]

Blindspot?
Open top car,Dumbass :rolleyes:



*ok I know you were in a hair dressers car of some sort but for the point of my point you had a c pillar blocking you view*

I reckon that point there would be the one your looking for the bold bit meaning convertible, I did relise you were in an open top car.

[scumdog]

See now THATS what the HD has going for it....so damn shiny from all the autosol on the chrome that it blinds all the drivers from behind! :whistle:

I see a richly deserved cuffing and bitch-slapping about to be dealt out at Woodstock!!
(Be easy 'cos you'll still be blind from the dazzle off the bling on my bike):motu:

[Kickaha]

I see a richly deserved cuffing and bitch-slapping about to be dealt out at Woodstock!!


How you going to manage that, Dangerous told me you spend all your time in a alcoholic stupor at these rallies :yes:




Be easy 'cos you'll still be blind from the dazzle off the bling on my bike):motu:
I guess with the amount of breakdowns and time off the road you have plenty of time to polish it :lol:

[scumdog]

How you going to manage that, Dangerous told me you spend all your time in a alcoholic stupor at these rallies :yes:



I guess with the amount of breakdowns and time off the road you have plenty of time to polish it :lol:

Wanting some of the same treatment Big Boy????

And what would Dangerous know about my state of sobriety? The big jessie spent more time in the tent than a circus clown!:laugh:

[GSVR]

Pure white cats have a far greater chance of being run over by cars. I always thought this was becuase they were deaf and couldn't hear the cars approaching. But maybe its becuase they are white and blend in with the road so well so cars don't see them.

This topic seems to come up on a regular basis and my opinion already exists on other threads.

[Lou Girardin]

I dont rekon harley pipes are as loud as sports bikes unless they are pulling hard rev's......they just putter putter along

You think?
Come and listen to a debaffled Twin Cam on our dyno. Thunder is an understatement.
Better still, have a listen to Ray's 124" bagger at the drags.

[Oscar]

When a mate of mine and I swapped bikes, I could hear the sound of my bike (being ridden by my friend) behind me. That was through a helmet and ear plugs.




This brings up another issue - why are some guys so keen to get Motorcycles legislated to a standstill?

Having established that loud pipes don't save lives, we should consider the fact that they just piss people off. The kinda of people who write to the paper and whinge to their MP's...

[sAsLEX]

Having established that loud pipes don't save lives,

We have? many of the stories on here have mentioned how in their experience Loud pipes have saved them coming to greif

[Oscar]

We have? many of the stories on here have mentioned how in their experience Loud pipes have saved them coming to greif

I've seen nothing here that supports the theory.
One guy says that his loud pipes alerts a guy in a car in an intersection when he had the right of way. Anyone that relies on cars giving way as of right is going to get taken out soon, pipe or no pipe.

As for the highway, it's simple physics. Unless your loud pipe is pointing forwards, or is as loud as a 747 taking off, it's only the people behind you that are going to be "alert" (i.e. pissed off). You're also relying on the other guy to hear you - that is not have a late model car and/or being listening to loud music.

Your hi-vis clothing and headlight being on is far more likley to get the moroms attention...

[sAsLEX]

As for the highway, it's simple physics. Unless your loud pipe is pointing forwards, or is as loud as a 747 taking off, it's only the people behind you that are going to be "alert" (i.e. pissed off). You're also relying on the other guy to hear you - that is not have a late model car and/or being listening to loud music.


ON the MW speeds often aint that quick in the rush hour, so sound does make it quite far forward, generally people behind you dont get pissed off as if your splitting they soon get left well behind.

[chickenfunkstar]

This brings up another issue - why are some guys so keen to get Motorcycles legislated to a standstill?

Having established that loud pipes don't save lives, we should consider the fact that they just piss people off. The kinda of people who write to the paper and whinge to their MP's...

If I car car hear me when i'm either behind it or beside it, how is that not of some value to my saftey?

[Oscar]

ON the MW speeds often aint that quick in the rush hour, so sound does make it quite far forward, generally people behind you dont get pissed off as if your splitting they soon get left well behind.

You've lost me: If you are going slow enough that the sound makes it there before you do, what's the danger? You should be able to react to anything happening in front of you at that speed anyway.

Furthermore, lane splitting with loud pipes does piss people off. Very much.
I had a Harley riding dickwad carve me up on the Southern Motorway yesterday...wanker.

[sAsLEX]

If you are going slow enough that the sound makes it there before you do, what's the danger?

Only in the first few gears does my bike dip below 330ms so yes it is safeish, once I get in to fourth though the associsated boom does wake up the cagers once I am past them, the shattering windows has annoyed some people though!

[Oscar]

If I car car hear me when i'm either behind it or beside it, how is that not of some value to my saftey?

Apart from the fact that your loud pipes may cause the car driver to reacting badly to you riding beside him, why are you relying on his hearing (and him not having the stereoo on etc), for your safety?

Ride like they don't hear or see you to stay out of trouble...

[Oscar]

Only in the first few gears does my bike dip below 330ms so yes it is safeish, once I get in to fourth though the associsated boom does wake up the cagers once I am past them, the shattering windows has annoyed some people though!

Oh great...I'll see you over at the thread complaining about the proposed new noise test for WOF's then...

[chickenfunkstar]

Apart from the fact that your loud pipes may cause the car driver to reacting badly to you riding beside him, why are you relying on his hearing (and him not having the stereoo on etc), for your safety?

Ride like they don't hear or see you to stay out of trouble...

I'm not relying on him to hear me. Its merely an aid, just like having the headlights on during the day. Not many people seem to think that headlights on during the day is a bad idea.

I do ride in a manner which assumes drivers don't know i'm there. That doesn't mean that I don't want drivers to know i'm there however.

[Oscar]

I'm not relying on him to hear me. Its merely an aid, just like having the headlights on during the day. Not many people seem to think that headlights on during the day is a bad idea.

I do ride in a manner which assumes drivers don't know i'm there. That doesn't mean that I don't want drivers to know i'm there however.


I don't disagree, anything that lets them know that your there is good.
But "lights on" initiatives don't tend to piss people off - I don't know of any LTSA plans to test for overly bright headlights...

[sAsLEX]

Oh great...I'll see you over at the thread complaining about the proposed new noise test for WOF's then...

yes you will, as instead of using the existing legislation that had dB limits and an International standard of testing defined, they will change it to some willy nilly test that some burecrat invents rather than an engineer!

[scumdog]

At the roadside in an open fronted cafe' in the weekend, traffic bumper to bumper (was in the BigCity of Invers) and various bikes went past, some going same way as traffic but on cycle lane, others going the other way on the other side of the road....

Could hear bikes approching (cos traffic was doing about 10-15kph) BUT until they came into sight I had only a vague idea where they were approaching from - so sure, I heard them but had a 50-50 chance I was looking in the right direction for them.
And I was sitting 10 or so more metres back from the road in the open, NOT in a car with three others yakking away and the stereo going plus the A/C fan going full tit.

Make what you will of the above.

[Grahameeboy]

At the roadside in an open fronted cafe' in the weekend, traffic bumper to bumper (was in the BigCity of Invers) and various bikes went past, some going same way as traffic but on cycle lane, others going the other way on the other side of the road....

Could hear bikes approching (cos traffic was doing about 10-15kph) BUT until they came into sight I had only a vague idea where they were approaching from - so sure, I heard them but had a 50-50 chance I was looking in the right direction for them.
And I was sitting 10 or so more metres back from the road in the open, NOT in a car with three others yakking away and the stereo going plus the A/C fan going full tit.

Make what you will of the above.

Agree Mr Scumdog....I made this point early in the thread.....I don't think ewes can rely on noise...too many variables.......eyes have it I say...they never lie unless you are not wearing your glasses......eyes are the key to 'reactions'

[Wolf]

Have loud pipes if you like, but don't rely on me to get out of your way - all sound comes "from somewhere to the right of me" because I am deaf in my left ear. If you aren't riding or driving as if I don't know where you are, then you're likely to get a nasty surprise unless I am alert and actually see you...

OK, I may well see you and react as I will be riding as though you don't know where I am, but that's not the point - others may not be as alert.

Eventually, there will be few internal combustion vehicles left. Diminishing fuel supplies and the practical problems with producing enough "grain alcohol" (ethanol) for the number of vehicles will mean that electric vehicles will become more common (especially now that they've found means to organically produce hydrogen to power the fuel cells).

What will everyone rely on to "make themselves safe" once cars and bikes make no noise save the gentle sussuration of their wheels on the road?

[chickenfunkstar]

I've just browsed through the whole thread and I can't seem to find anyone who thinks its a good idea to rely on a loud exhaust.

Most people who are for loud pipes seem to say that they can be useful in certain situations. I can't really see how anyone disagrees with this.

[Pixie]

This brings up another issue - why are some guys so keen to get Motorcycles legislated to a standstill?

Having established that loud pipes don't save lives, we should consider the fact that they just piss people off. The kinda of people who write to the paper and whinge to their MP's...
You've got the wrong end of the stick.
The point I am argueing is ;don't rely or think that you are safer because your pipes are loud.
I don't care if the pipes are loud,as I have post previously,I have loud pipes on my bike.

And to those who claim that drivers notice them because of their pipes,You will never know why they notice you,wether it was the pipes or the headlight or movement in the mirror.
Unless you approach a group of legally blind drivers.

[Grahameeboy]

I've just browsed through the whole thread and I can't seem to find anyone who thinks its a good idea to rely on a loud exhaust.

Most people who are for loud pipes seem to say that they can be useful in certain situations. I can't really see how anyone disagrees with this.

I reckon is just an excuse for buying loud pipes........

[chickenfunkstar]

I reckon is just an excuse for buying loud pipes........

I'd be lying if I said that I didn't like the noise....


I'll still stand by what i've said previously in this thread though.

[Grahameeboy]

I'd be lying if I said that I didn't like the noise....


I'll still stand by what i've said previously in this thread though.

Lier lier...exhaust catch your pants on fire..

I must me odd cause I luv the sound of my standard SV pipes.......never been a 'noise' person.......

[Wolf]

I've just browsed through the whole thread and I can't seem to find anyone who thinks its a good idea to rely on a loud exhaust.

Most people who are for loud pipes seem to say that they can be useful in certain situations. I can't really see how anyone disagrees with this.
I disagree with it because they annoy the shit out of people - that is equally true for motorcyle exhausts and those wanky metal rubbish tins found on the backs of some cages.

Being a nuisance to achieve something of debatable merit, when the answer is to be more alert yourself, seems of no value to me.

In my experience, the alert people are going to be aware of you anyway, even if your bike were whisper-quiet, and the oblivious ones are not going to notice you whatever you do.

I've had a bike with an overly loud (as in receiving warnings from the Traffic cops to "get it fixed or get ticketed") exhaust and I've had really quiet bikes. I have not noticed any appreciable difference in the amount of work I have had to do to ensure I don't get hit by other road users.

The percentage of people who have been demonstrably aware of my presence has been the same - suggesting that they were in an alert state anyway. The majority still acted like dicks despite the fact that the bike's noise was literally painful.

I suspect the only people I seriously got to notice my loud bike were the poor fuckers in the houses I passed who were trying to sleep or watch their TV shows.

I'd personally rather not annoy people and continue being alert to the possibility that someone is going to be "silly".

[Wolf]

And to those who claim that drivers notice them because of their pipes,You will never know why they notice you,wether it was the pipes or the headlight or movement in the mirror.
Unless you approach a group of legally blind drivers.
I fully agree. I had the same percentage of people notice my noisy bike as I had notice all the quieter bikes (and that very same bike when the muffler was in good repair) - which I take to mean that had the bike still been in good repair and quieter, they probably would have noticed me anyway. The fucking great hole in the pipe just before the muffler certainly didn't prevent people from pulling out in front of me...

[chickenfunkstar]

I disagree with it because they annoy the shit out of people - that is equally true for motorcyle exhausts and those wanky metal rubbish tins found on the backs of some cages.

Being a nuisance to achieve something of debatable merit, when the answer is to be more alert yourself, seems of no value to me.

In my experience, the alert people are going to be aware of you anyway, even if your bike were whisper-quiet, and the oblivious ones are not going to notice you whatever you do.

I've had a bike with an overly loud (as in receiving warnings from the Traffic cops to "get it fixed or get ticketed") exhaust and I've had really quiet bikes. I have not noticed any appreciable difference in the amount of work I have had to do to ensure I don't get hit by other road users.

The percentage of people who have been demonstrably aware of my presence has been the same - suggesting that they were in an alert state anyway. The majority still acted like dicks despite the fact that the bike's noise was literally painful.

I suspect the only people I seriously got to notice my loud bike were the poor fuckers in the houses I passed who were trying to sleep or watch their TV shows.

I'd personally rather not annoy people and continue being alert to the possibility that someone is going to be "silly".


Yeah, they could annoy people, particularly if ridden inconsideratly. I am aware of this and do try to be as considerate as possible, particularly at night in residential zones. I think that's really another argument though.

I don't think the exhaust on my bike is dis-tastefully loud, but I guess one mans 'nice' exhaust is another man's 'obnoxious' exhaust.

I'm sure plenty of people would disagree that a loud exhaust makes NO difference to cagers awareness of a motorbike.

If the absolute worst thing loud pipes can do is make no difference to cagers awareness and the best thing they can do is create quite a bit of awareness, on average they'll make at least some difference? (If that makes any sence)

[SVrunner]

There will always be someone who misses us & pulls out.
The main point is to be noticed.
If lights on, wearing Hi Vis jacket, white helmet or louder than normal pipe helps somebody not paying full attention wake up & notice you then it's worth it.