Bleeding heart liberals!

[MisterD]

The kind of people that want to charge these officers with murder bloody well deserve to be blown up on their way to work.

These officers have volunteered to protect us in our cushy existences, and they are expected to make split-second life or death decisions. What if it had been a terrorist wired up to the eyballs with Semtex and he'd blown himself up and taken a few members of the public with him?

Yes it's all very sad that another innocent person died, but people die because they do something stupid every day, whether it's overtaking on the wrong bend or ignoring a policeman with a gun telling you to stop.

Left Wing tossers dumping on the poor sods in the front line is fuggin out of order. Give the blokes a medal, and show them we appreciate what they are doing for us I say.

[SixPackBack]

WTF are you talking about?

[MisterD]

WTF are you talking about?

Bugger- fucked up on the link -here it is.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13495341,00.html

[Drum]

A medal for shooting an innocent man 7 times in the head?

I can think of people more worthy!

[mini_me]

Now that is fucking bullshit!!
Why can people not see the logic in his actions? What the fuck else what he supposed to do? 'Um Sir, are you a terrorist and carrying a bomb?' fuck no. Under the circumstances that man deserves a lot of credit, firstly for making the call and then secondly for actually hitting the guy in the head 7 times with what I'm assuming was a 9mm.
m/m

[Indiana_Jones]

Now that is fucking bullshit!!
Why can people not see the logic in his actions?

I dare say most people do, but most people of my age have been brought up in a PC age ran by weed smoking hippies of the 60's :slap:

It's wrong what the white man did the the savages, wait i mean 'natives'. They were quite happy cracking each other's skulls open and dying at the age of 26 afraid of their own shadow....I mean they lived in peace with one another.

So yeah, it's all f*cking upside-down. When a cop kills someone he's a bastard murderer!, but oh when it's like Joe blogs who's assualted someone or what not, the person in hospital isn't the victim, oh no, Joe Blogs is. I mean we have to understand why he did it, and then give him 'jail time', no wait, we can't do that we need to 'correct him'........let's not do that, let's lock him away, or for murderers, hang them.

Rant over :bash:

-Indy

[Hitcher]

Nobody should be above the law, particularly when human life (or rather the loss of it) is the issue. If Police officers or any citizen for that matter have acted appropriately by killing another person, that is a matter for Courts to decide, not a red-neck reactionary lynch mob.

[Lou Girardin]

Apart from the fact that the cops stuffed the whole operation up from the word go, held him down and slaughtered an innocent man, Then lied about it.
Sure they were just doing their job, if they're job was as a Brazillian death squad.

[MisterD]

Nobody should be above the law, particularly when human life (or rather the loss of it) is the issue. If Police officers or any citizen for that matter have acted appropriately by killing another person, that is a matter for Courts to decide, not a red-neck reactionary lynch mob.

These blokes are putting themselves out there in harms way for the sake of our safety. There's enough for them to take into account anyway without worrying about repercussions like this, fine to put the senior officers in the spotlight for the rules of engagement they decree but I'd rather the guys at the sharpe end were confident of society's support and in my case admiration for the job they do.

They are heroes in my book.

[jazbug5]

..And as I understand it, they didn't identify themselves as police, and kept shooting into his head once he was down. I used to live in Stockwell myself; it's next door to Brixton, and there's a lot of gun crime. How would you react if you were in a dodgy area and some bloke pulled a gun on you? I'd be very surprised if most people didn't make a 'deposit' in their pants.
Anyway, as Hitcher said: none of us was there. If the cops really did do everything as they say they did, then that should come out.

[Lou Girardin]

They are heroes in my book.

And if it was YOUR father, brother, son?

[MisterD]

..And as I understand it, they didn't identify themselves as police, and kept shooting into his head once he was down.

A bloke in a blue uniform with an automatic rifle - right that what all the yardies look like...and he was a potential suicide bomber that what you have to do (hard lesson learnt by the Israelies) to make sure they can't trigger their explosives.

[jazbug5]

They weren't in uniform.

[Matt Bleck]

Why would you shoot someone in the head SEVEN times!!!

You'd think after the first he would be dead, and if not the second would make sure.......

Heroes????

[MisterD]

And if it was YOUR father, brother, son?

To me the events at Stockwell are an acceptable risk in the current climate, in my mind it just increase the death toll for the London bombings by 1 which is what? Less than 10%?. I'd be gutted / angry just like anyone else but I'd be directing that at Abu Hamza and his ilk not the poor sods trying to keep us safe.

[MisterD]

Why would you shoot someone in the head SEVEN times!!!

You'd think after the first he would be dead, and if not the second would make sure.......

Heroes????

Three officers, trained to fire in 3-shot bursts, who missed?

Yes. Heroes, just for doing the job.

[jazbug5]

To me the events at Stockwell are an acceptable risk in the current climate, in my mind it just increase the death toll for the London bombings by 1 which is what? Less than 10%?.

Ok- would you like to be the one to have to tell his family that? It seems that his death could have been an avoidable one.
Yes, the police have a hard job, no-one is disputing that. But if this happened because they didn't follow their training and did not identify themselves, then something does have to be done. Pulling guns in rush hour? Hmmm.

And there is the little matter of alienating people even more than they already are. People in that area can still remember the race riots of Brixton, which happened because of the poor relationship between young black males and the police- wherever you stand on that debate. There is a similar dynamic happening with young Muslim males in the East end/Brick Lane area, and this type of thing does absolutely nothing to help it; even if it doesn't necessarily encourage a young guy to join the Jihadis, it may make him less likely to argue against it or try to stop friends who might...

[jazbug5]

...and you think they deserve medals for markmanship?
The guy was on the floor, for God's sake!

[MisterD]

Ok- would you like to be the one to have to tell his family that?

No I wouldn't, but I wouldn't want to say to those coppers "Thanks for risking your life, but as it turns out we need a scapegoat and that's you"



There is a similar dynamic happening with young Muslim males in the East end/Brick Lane area, and this type of thing does absolutely nothing to help it; even if it doesn't necessarily encourage a young guy to join the Jihadis, it may make him less likely to argue against it or try to stop friends who might...

Don't even go there, I'm fully onside with the opinion that Muslim community leaders have purposely worked to keep their communities separate from mainstream society....

[MisterD]

...and you think they deserve medals for markmanship?
The guy was on the floor, for God's sake!

No, as I thought I made clear, they deserve medails for putting themselves out there and making tough split-second decisions that affect the lives of potentially tens of people.

The witch-hunt this is turning into means that next time the probability of the error being on the side of a bomb being detonated just went up.

[jazbug5]

Don't even go there, I'm fully onside with the opinion that Muslim community leaders have purposely worked to keep their communities separate from mainstream society....
Ah. I see. My mistake then; I forgot that men with bandages on their heads have black, black hearts and shifty, too-close-together eyes and stuff. Er, fuck yeah.

By the way, there's drool on your shirt.

[MisterD]

Ah. I see. My mistake then; I forgot that men with bandages on their heads have black, black hearts and shifty, too-close-together eyes and stuff. Er, fuck yeah.

By the way, there's drool on your shirt.

Oops my bad. I'm a white male therefore any criticism of anyone who's skin is darker than mine is automatically knee-jerk racism. Go back to your Linda McCartney veggie burgers.

[ManDownUnder]

No I wouldn't, but I wouldn't want to say to those coppers "Thanks for risking your life, but as it turns out we need a scapegoat and that's you"

What about something like them saying "Sorry" - accompanied by an explanation of what actually happened (as opposed to the PR version) and WHY it actually happened (again - as opposed to the PR version).

Thanks for risking your life is a given. I will happily give those thanks to everyone in the forces, the police, the fire service and anyone else facing a dangerous situation so I don't have to. I'm grateful - I really am.

That doesn't mean they're immune to responsibility though. If they did bad they take the wrap.

Just like me.

[sunhuntin]

dunno if you guys woulda heard about the unmarked cop car that got hit by a 14 y/o driver here in a town a lil while back? big headlines the next day "POLICE TRIED TO KILL MY SON" son being the passenger of the car that was being pursued by a marked cop car. really peeved me off, reading that. a lot of people wrote in have a dig at the father, saying it was the other way round.

someones always gotta be the scapegoat, though its obvious who was in the wrong there...the driver for refusing to stop when ordered, and also for driving at all, being 14!

[Hitcher]

Oops my bad. I'm a white male therefore any criticism of anyone who's skin is darker than mine is automatically knee-jerk racism.
Not necessarily. It could also be uninformed bigotry.

[Lou Girardin]

You don't seem to know what really happened MrD.
Like the cop who had the apartments under surveillance, taking off for a piss and not seeing the 'terrorist' arrive.
Then a group of men in civvies chasing a clearly unarmed man without identifying themselves. A Brazillian man who would naturally run when threatened by armed men, it's how they grow up over there.
One cop grabbed him when he stood up, immobilised him, pushed him into a seat on the carriage while others shot him 7 times in the head and shoulder.
Then saying publicly that he was wearing bulky clothing as if hiding a bomb belt - he wasn't.
And saying that he was challenged and the cops identified themselves - they didn't.
They did use to give medals for this type of heroics, it was called the Iron Cross.

[Jackrat]

The fucker had a back pack.
end of game:laugh:

[Lou Girardin]

The fucker had a back pack.
end of game:laugh:

Is that the back pack the Police said he had?
Or the one he didn't have?
Or perhaps the one they wish he had?

[ManDownUnder]

The fucker had a back pack.
end of game:laugh:

Shit - I've got one too... maybe I should avoid the tube next time I'm in London?

[Fatjim]

Ok then wise arse, why did the cops shoot him. Oh yeah, we've got 4 coppers in the uk who went out looking to slaughter some innocent non raghead just for a laugh. fuck off.

4 cops don't shoot someone without reason. 1 maybe, but not 4.

[KATWYN]

matter for Courts to decide, not a red-neck reactionary lynch mob.

:laugh: :laugh:

[onearmedbandit]

Agree with Lou and Hitcher on this one. No-one is above the law. If they failed to carry out correct procedure, told mis-truths about what happened, then someone has to answer to this.

[KATWYN]

and shifty, too-close-together eyes and stuff. Er, fuck yeah.

.

That description sounds like a certain president.......

[jazbug5]

Well, mister Fat Jim, I expect they will have a very good explanation for their actions when it comes to trial. And for why the surveillance guy that Lou mentioned earlier was not with them when they moved in and shot him in the head at point blank range.

After all, groups of four people together at once have never been known to make a mistake or, say, be overtaken by group hysteria or anything before.

Edit: stuffed up my writting

[Indiana_Jones]

Cops can't win, they're scorned if they get the wrong person and looked down apon if they do stop the right person and shit on if they don't stop someone. Catch 22

-Indy

[jazbug5]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Indy, but I don't believe it's in the job description to shoot people rather than apprehend them. Especially when you consider what we now know... to criticize what has happened here, or at least call for it to be looked into is not the same thing as slagging off all police.

[Ascott]

They should have listened to Enoch Powell and this may not have happened?

[Ixion]

The cops are doing a very difficult job, for which they have my support and admiration. Unfortuneatly, even decent hardworking people doing a difficult and praiseworthy job, can stuff up. Shit happens, but it still left an (apparently) innocent person dead.Maybe these coppers stuffed up. That's what the courts will decide

[Ixion]

They should have listened to Enoch Powell and this may not have happened?


I see the River Tamaki running red with much blood ?

[Biff]

You don't seem to know what really happened.


Neither do the overwhelming majority of people, other than what we've read or heard. But we form opinions anyway.

The cops asked the guy to stop. He didn't.

From what I've read they did identify themselves as cops - but the guy took off running none the less.

He was an illegal immigrant.

Maybe he genuinely didn't hear the cops identify themselves.

Maybe he thought he was going to be deported?

He ran, onto a busy tube station during a period of increased tension in London following the recent spate of bombings.

He ran onto a tube train and refused to stop, was bundled to the floo, and told to put his hands out, the guy pulling them in instead, under himself.

The cops made a split seconds decision. Was he trying to detonate a bomb?

Hero ? Bit strong a term maybe. But I've the utmost respect for these cops, although the entire operation was fucked up big time. Thankfully the majority of other operations that were probably ongoing all around the UK at the time this took incident took place weren't botched in the manner in which this one was. :spudwhat:

"The cops lied" - From what I know/read/heard/recall it was Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair who fucked up during a press conference within minutes of this incident taking place. He'd received dodgy information from the field and decided to go to the press without first authenticating every minute detail of what was, a relatively lengthy foot pursuit and a alleged attempt to conduct a further terrorist attack on a train. He made a serious error in judgement IMO.

I'm glad we armchair critics live a peaceful life down here. Away from all the real nasty shit.

[Mooch]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/london_blasts/tube_shooting/html/default.stm

This link has the list of events that led up to the shooting. The police got it wrong earlier and through a chain of events led to the shooting of an innocent person. Each officer involved was acting on the information they'd been given and believed they were dealing with a terrorist that was intent on killing innocent people. Based on the information the officers had, they were putting there own lives at risk and were acting in a kill or be killed environment.

Around the time of the London Tube bombings I was spending around 3 hours a day commuting on the Tubes.

First of all, people with rucksacks are very common. Some are students; others use them for shopping, work etc. Many people don't have cars so carry plenty of shopping on the transport system (Including my Wife and I).

Second, the Tubes aren't full of White Poms, it's very multi-cultural, more so than Auckland or Wellington so every race / faith / religion were victims. The bombers killed people of the same faith, but remember, they were brainwashed extremists, probably started off not unlike a couple here that seem to have an issue with all "Ragheads".

After the first round of bombings people were somewhat nervous. You'd get on the Tube system and notice everyone would check everyone else out, especially if a person happened to be of "middle eastern" descent and carrying a rucksack. I guess peoples self preservation instincts were kicking in. Some people (not many) would not get on the carriage in middle eastern people with rucksacks were present. I didn't do that, but I can say it was hard not thinking, "is the person standing / sitting next to me intent on blowing the rest of us up".

Some people would have there rucksacks open so other passengers would feel more comfortable, this is still happening now. Prior to the bombings you wouldn't do that kind of thing unless you wanted to get robbed.

Going through some the stations, you wouldn't want to make any sudden movements, armed police were there and very alert! finger on safeties. I’m sure around the time there were plenty of plain clothes police. On a couple of Tube rides a man would stand at one end of the carriage watching people , plenty of spare seats around him at the time.

I was on the Tube system on the second round of bombings, something was up that day even before the attempts, lots of delays with security alerts from stations before hand. Fortunately the bomb mix didn’t go off, only the detonators so none of the busy lunch time crowd were killed. It did highlight one thing thought; it showed that the bombers could easily strike a third time.

I guess I’m trying to give people a feel of what it was like at the time. The Brazilian was shot under these circumstances. The officers that held and shot him were acting on what they’d been told were a positive ID. If it had been a terrorist they would have surely saved lives and would be the best way to avoid a backpack of explosives taking out everyone else. How ever, wrong guy, an innocent person was shot. Shit, I’m in London, went through the bombings, but I can’t decide, I can see either point of view. Should the officers be charged for murder based on the information they were given, I don’t think so. Should someone be charged with the murder of the Brazilian man? That’s one for the courts. Either way I feel sorry for the man’s family. They are also victims of the London Bombings.

[jazbug5]

Both Biff and Mooch make very good, balanced points in their posts: hopefully something positive will come of the enquiry when all of the facts/if all of the facts come to light. No-one would argue (I hope) that those cops got up that morning and thought 'I know, I'm going to empty a cartidge into the head of some random dark-skinned fella'. No doubt they felt they were acting on good faith; I am sure they are not comfortable now with what happened. But it all still needs to be looked at thoroughly.

There are so many precedents of what can happen in these sorts of high-tension situations, not least in London during the height of the IRA bombing campaign. It will be interesting to hear more about why it was he was targeted, and where that information came from; given the complexity of this whole situation, given that terrorist operatives could look like anyone at all (there have been several cases of white converts involved), and how dangerous it is to send a group of young, amped up, tooled up guys out after someone specifically, there shoulde, one would hope, have been some strict guidelines. There are people in the force whose job it is to be aware of these things, to have read up on studies of group psychology- like, for example the many written about My Lai.

I don't profess to know much about what is and is not possible in terms of reaction times etc, but like many people (and this is important, because public anger against police is not what we want) I am wondering why, if they had the guy held down, they could not have simply knocked him out- and why they had to put so many bullets into his head? Adrenaline is a powerful thing, and I am not convinced that enough thought is put into preparing these guys for that red cloud. I have been a photographer (in London) at many public demonstrations etc, and I have seen many examples of this, including seeing an old lady knocked out by the police and dragged along the ground, then a fellow photographer get his camera smashed for recording it. Most police actually behaved really well, but I was surprised then that individual guys with such short fuses/poor stress handling skills were put on the front line.

And as a last 'off-topic' side issue, those who think that not wanting to arm the police is a pinko-commie idea? What if we allowed it, gave them free reign and five years later (a wildly outside chance, I know) a communist, totalitarian regime somehow got into power.. and they were weilding their guns on their behalf? Would that make you nervous at all...?

[pritch]

And as a last 'off-topic' side issue, those who think that not wanting to arm the police is a pinko-commie idea? What if we allowed it, gave them free reign and five years later (a wildly outside chance, I know) a communist, totalitarian regime somehow got into power.. and they were weilding their guns on their behalf? Would that make you nervous at all...?


Marginally relevant, I know, but when firearms controls were first introduced into this country it was as a measure to prevent a possible revolution. The then Govt may have been a bit jumpy after watching the events in Russia unfold?

Of course they wildly underestimated the apathy of the New Zealand public :-)

[WINJA]

Agree with Lou and Hitcher on this one. No-one is above the law. If they failed to carry out correct procedure, told mis-truths about what happened, then someone has to answer to this.
I DONT THINK ITS A BAD THING THAT THEIR GOING TO COURT , I JUST HOPE THEY GO B4 A PANEL OF 3 JUDGES RATHER THAN A JURY SO THAT THE CASE IS JUDGED WITH SOME LOGIC AND NOT WITH THE HEART , I THINK THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED ON WEATHER THEY LIED AND TRIED A COVER UP .
THE COPS DID THE BEST THAT THEY COULD IN THE SITUATION AND HOPEFULLY A COURT CASE WILL PROVE IT

[Skyryder]

The guy did a runner. He paid the price. Plenty here alude to the same if we do the same on our bikes. As for the language thing. A dog may not fully understand the command but they as sure as hell understand the tone if there is any confusion.

As for the Police lies. Thats a disciplineary matter not a murder or manslaughter charge.

Skyryder

[Jamezo]

http://g.o.r.i.l.l.a.postle.net/images/picturegallery/NottingHillcc.jpg

[Mooch]

The guy did a runner. He paid the price. Plenty here alude to the same if we do the same on our bikes. As for the language thing. A dog may not fully understand the command but they as sure as hell understand the tone if there is any confusion.

As for the Police lies. Thats a disciplineary matter not a murder or manslaughter charge.

Skyryder

What runner , the guy stopped to get a paper !

from the BBC

He crossed Clapham Road and entered the station at about 1000, stopping to pick up a copy of the free Metro newspaper before passing through the automatic ticket barriers, using his Underground pass.

At least one witness initially said he saw the man vaulting the barriers. But he later acknowledged that it could have been one of the pursuing officers.

By this time, officers had received "positive identification" that Mr Menezes was their suspect, according to the leaked papers.

He began travelling down the escalator towards the northbound Northern Line platform, and at some point began running towards the train. Originally, this was interpreted by witnesses (and not dismissed by police) as an attempt to escape the pursuing officers.

But the documents suggest it might have been because he heard or spotted a train arriving at the platform.

[scumdog]

So why DID they shoot him?????????

[scumdog]

Is that the back pack the Police said he had?
Or the one he didn't have?
Or perhaps the one they wish he had?

Or the one you say he didn't have?
or the one he had?
Or perhaps the one you wish he didn't have?:bleh:

[Lou Girardin]

From what I've read they did identify themselves as cops - but the guy took off running none the less.

He was an illegal immigrant.

Maybe he genuinely didn't hear the cops identify themselves.

Maybe he thought he was going to be deported?

He ran, onto a busy tube station during a period of increased tension in London following the recent spate of bombings.

He ran onto a tube train and refused to stop, was bundled to the floo, and told to put his hands out, the guy pulling them in instead, under himself.

.

I don't know where you heard this, but it conflicts with what witnesses have said. Especially when he was shot. A woman next to him saw a cop grab him, pin his arms to his side, push him back into his eat and then the others shot him as he was immobilised.

[Mooch]

So why DID they shoot him?????????

They'd had miss-taken him for an assoicate of one of the London bombers. A London bomber had borrowed a gym card from a person in the Brazilian's building.

A member of police incorrectly identified the Brazilian as the bombers assocaite as the Brazilian left the apartment block.

As to why they shot him ? , believing that the Brazilian was an assoicate of one of the bombers they must have thought he was part of another cell and posed a bombing threat. The police tail lost track of him for a while, catching up at the station when the guy was entering the Tube.

London police were under shoot to kill orders at the time.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/london_blasts/tube_shooting/html/stakeout.stm

[Lou Girardin]

So why DID they shoot him?????????

Their training, based on Israeli tactics, is for multiple shots to the head. to prevent even reflexive actions.

[scumdog]

Their training, based on Israeli tactics, is for multiple shots to the head. to prevent even reflexive actions.

Ah, yeah, I was aware of all that, it was more a :Pokey: to see who would come up with a conspiracy type theory or some other ding-bat response.....:weird:

[Biff]

I don't know where you heard this, but it conflicts with what witnesses have said.

Here for starters:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1706793,00.html


"Witnesses to the killing of Menezes described how he was chased into Stockwell Tube station on Friday morning by armed plainclothes officers and killed with shots to the head while lying on the floor of a train.
The officers are thought to have feared that Menezes, who was wearing a quilted jacket on a summer’s day, might have been concealing a bomb. "


Several witnesses reported several different versions of events. Let's see what comes out in court.

[Lou Girardin]

The officers are thought to have feared that Menezes, who was wearing a quilted jacket on a summer’s day, might have been concealing a bomb. "


Photos taken immediately after the shooting showed him wearing a shirt.

[scumdog]

Photos taken immediately after the shooting showed him wearing a shirt.

Thing is Lou: people post all this 'information' such as you have and this 'shows' that an innocent unaggresive man who was doing nothing wrong and was wearing nothing suspicious etc etc was shot by the Police.
Now out of all 1,000s of innocent unaggresive people doing nothing wrong and wearing nothing suspicious etc etc WHY did the decide to shoot this poor bozo?????:blink:

[Lou Girardin]

An atmosphere of hysteria? Everyone's a bomber?
It's the precise thing these terrorists want to happen, innocents killed due to over-reaction of their target Government.
It's a tactic as old as time, and works very well.

[scumdog]

An atmosphere of hysteria? Everyone's a bomber?
It's the precise thing these terrorists want to happen, innocents killed due to over-reaction of their target Government.
It's a tactic as old as time, and works very well.

Well it did for that guy, one innocent but it was hardly mass death and destruction and panic stricken mayhem though so I wouldn't put it in the 'works very well' catagory..

[Pixie]

And there is the little matter of alienating people even more than they already are. People in that area can still remember the race riots of Brixton, which happened because of the poor relationship between young black males and the police- wherever you stand on that debate. There is a similar dynamic happening with young Muslim males in the East end/Brick Lane area, and this type of thing does absolutely nothing to help it; even if it doesn't necessarily encourage a young guy to join the Jihadis, it may make him less likely to argue against it or try to stop friends who might...
This is the main objective of terrorism,and the cops played right into their hands by over reacting.

[Lou Girardin]

Well it did for that guy, one innocent but it was hardly mass death and destruction and panic stricken mayhem though so I wouldn't put it in the 'works very well' catagory..

There seems to be no shortage of terrorists.