Here we go again

[James Deuce]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3550483a10,00.html

A tiny minority of the population abuse their children badly, so the rest of us have to live in a climate of fear.

Cindy Kiro again.

[zadok]

Sounds like that movie with Jim Carey in it (Can't think of it's name)

[MisterD]

Worrying about children falling through the cracks? I thought the problem was that they were starting not to fit through doorways?

[bugjuice]

which Jim Carey movie would that be??!!

...and would have children's health, education and social situation assessed at birth...
How smart do kids have to be when they come out now? And what if they're not? They shoved back in until they are..??

It is not clear who would fund the potentially costly exercise
my God. Do we have any rocket scientists around?

Who's going to bloody read tens of thousands of reports and follow up on stuff anyway?

[Lou Girardin]

If a zero tolerance for automotive naughtiness near schools is a good idea, why isn't this?
Just being a little:devil2:s advocate here.

[madboy]

I don't think it's your kids (or mine for that matter) that need this sorta help Jim. It's the roadkill that live down the road from me that do... The unsupervised kids barely old enough to walk that I have to dodge every time we drive down our street. The multi-million dollar price tag? Think BILLIONS. Whatever the WINZ budget is, double it. There's entire suburbs full of kids who'd meet the classifications.

But exactly how does the govt plan of following up on this sorta thing? Is David Benson-Pope gonna get out the duct tape and beat some milestones into the kids, while ensuring they are nourished by eating tennis balls? Don't think so Batman.

Think of how many thousands of employees this new govt department will need. Where exactly are skilled people going to come from? Most of the skilled people they've got at CYFS are on stress leave. And the ones who aren't are either overworked or useless, or a combination of both.

The plan ain't gonna fly, they don't have the money, they don't have the resources. Unless they increase the numbers of Highway Patrol, lower the threshold to 3k over the limit and officially target passing lanes even more.

[Pwalo]

[A tiny minority of the population abuse their children badly, so the rest of us have to live in a climate of fear.

Cindy Kiro again.

Yep agree 100% with you Jim. I have a sneaky feeling that the Govt agencies involved in this area know the areas and families involved as well.

Still you've got to have the people worrying about something. And it provides more jobs for the so called experts. (Rather reminds me of global warming, the Y2K palava, etc).

Better stop now, I'm beginning to sound like my old man, and my boys will start calling me a old fart - again!!!

[James Deuce]

Madby, you're assuming that they're going to do it properly and train some people. It will be left to people like teachers, social workers, dental nurses, creche workers, and kindergarten teachers to fill in the developmental reports and activate the CYFS response. In other words, people already overloaded with governance requirements.

There is a vast raft of research that indicates that children respond to authority figures by giving them the story they want to hear. They don't actively lie or deceive, rather they provide the path of least resistance to instinctively reduce their own exposure to anything bad happening to them right now. To keep TwoSeven off my back I will publish links to the research I am referring to when I have finished writing the letter I am sending to Ms Kiro.

Innocent people will have their lives and family relationships ruined if this plan goes ahead, and not because of any malicious actions on the part of the children or Government employees involved.

Given Cindy Kiro's track record in responding to criticism of her plans (a la Airline seating arrangements), there will be no debate about this. All it needs is enough intellectuals in parliament, with a bias to applying social theory to their "live laboratory", and anyone who even looks at their kids wrong will be in the shit. Just like the anti-speeding regime punishes a large number of normally inoffensive people to try and rein in a few psychos.

Lou, find a better metaphor you cheeky monkey.

[bugjuice]

why don't we all just get barcodes tattooed on our necks and be done with it? We check in every time we get home, and then BB knows where we are, and how we're doing.. We use it for our banks etc too, then we can't get robbed as easy. And may be then, I won't loose my Eftpos card all the time

[Ixion]

I wouldn't bet on it not being your kids that get picked up. The report refers to kids being assessed on their "social situation". And given the people involved, I be willing to bet that means that if you haven't genuflected daily to the Principles of the Tirwhtty, or come from a household where there's one of those vile unspeakable male things (who we know are all rapists and child abusers), you'll get caught all right. This is just an angling shot for the right to carry on unrestricted social engineering on the kids.

[madboy]

Jim, agree entirely. Chances of it being implemented in a competent manner are right up there with the odds of you and me tag-teaming Jessica Simpson.

You wanna try being a solo-father with a daughter. The looks you get from people as you disappeared into the male toilets with a 3yo girl. Well I woulda preferred the female loos...

[James Deuce]

Jim, agree entirely....

Sorry, thought you were giving me a wind up (as usual). ;)

[Skyryder]

Not too sure if falling through cracks is the right word. Bad parenting seems to be the problem this country. There does seem to be an element of Big Brother but to be fair imagine the uproar if this was to be implemented on a race or social basis. New Zealand has one of the highest infant abuse rates in the western world. Just look at the number of toddlers who get killed..........and the manner in which they are killed.
CYPS don't have a very good public image in this country and the abuse rate may hve something to do with that. Just remember folks we are talking children here and if it is going to be of benifit to just one then may be it's might just be worth it. As for the cost. I hope someone does there sums because I for one would like to see a reduction in associated costs for bad parenting.

Skyryder

[ManDownUnder]

I'm torn on this one.

We (my much more attractive half) and I do a good job of raising our kids and we're lucky enough to be able to provide them with their emotional, health educational and safety needs.

I wouldn't worry in the slightest if some clipboard wielding bod came to check all is ok - in fact I'll invite them.

I'd like to see all kids given the chances ours are.

On the other hand, anytime an agency is given responsibility for welfare upkeep it goes wrong. Kids fall through the cracks, those responsible for welfare are overworked and mistakes get made.

Bureaucracy is good at repetitve things, things where cause and effect are simple to determine and accurate, measured interventions are put in place. I offer Tax collection as an example.

As soon as that same bureaucracy is responsible for anything dynamic (identifying the father of a child and having them pay child support)... it falls apart.

I firmly believe the answer is in education. Educate parents. Despite popular belief it's NOT something natural to everyone, and it's real easy (and fun) to become one...

[ManDownUnder]

You wanna try being a solo-father with a daughter. The looks you get from people as you disappeared into the male toilets with a 3yo girl. Well I woulda preferred the female loos...

Mate if that's what you need to do - do it.

The funny looks are from people that don't know or understand what's going on. In other words - they're ignorant.

PC has gone too far...

[MisterD]

I firmly believe the answer is in education. Educate parents. Despite popular belief it's NOT something natural to everyone, and it's real easy (and fun) to become one...

Putting my sensible hat on, I have to agree, but yet again it's going to be the conscientious few who will end up feeling harrassed and inadequate rather than those who just don't give a flying f-.

My better half and I are expecting a fairly imminent arrival ourselves, and I have to say it was noticeable that it was the two youngest couples who came to the first ante-natal class and were never seen again.

[Winston001]

Not too sure if falling through cracks is the right word. Bad parenting seems to be the problem this country. New Zealand has one of the highest infant abuse rates in the western world. Just look at the number of toddlers who get killed..........and the manner in which they are killed.
CYPS don't have a very good public image in this country and the abuse rate may hve something to do with that. Just remember folks we are talking children here and if it is going to be of benifit to just one then may be it's might just be worth it. I hope someone does there sums because I for one would like to see a reduction in associated costs for bad parenting.

Skyryder

Agreed. Child abuse by parents in a wealthy Western country such as NZ is shameful. We need to do something but exactly what is a real connundrum. CYPS social workers are damned when they don't remove children and damned when they do. They can't win.



I firmly believe the answer is in education. Educate parents. Despite popular belief it's NOT something natural to everyone, and it's real easy (and fun) to become one...

Hear hear. Parenting is the most important activity that a human undertakes, yet we get absolutely no training in it at all. These days virtually every parent starts from scratch with only dimly remembered child-hood memories as a guide. And if your parents were abusive then that will be your model.

Families used to contain 3 generations with grandparents guiding new parents and taking up the slack at times of bewilderment. They also contributed wisdom to the household. We really lost something when we started putting old folk out of sight in rest homes.

There are excellent parenting courses available and I know I'm a much better parent for having gone to them. But these courses are attended by middle class people who have the advantages of education and resources. It is the parents in poverty who would really benefit.

[Hitcher]

Maybe it's too easy for people to have kids? Tried owning a dog or a gun and seen the paperwork and reference checks involved in these endeavours?

Kids? Pah! Just leave the hapless and hopeless to their own initiative and they'll be getting themselves knocked up in record time by virile 13-year-olds who they've plied with drugs or alcohol. And the middle classes fret about in-vitro fertilisation and how many "swimmers" their beau can offload.

[madboy]

Part of the problem (I'm not saying all) is that the middle classes are working so damn hard to be in the middle classes that they're putting off child rearing later and later. From a biological perspective, it's all downhill from 30 for a woman. So the further past 30 they start at, the harder it gets.

Whereas the dumbass classes get knocked up at 18 when they're in their prime biological state, and start popping out little ones with ease. And they sit on government benefits paid for by... wait for it... the middle classes who can least afford it.

How about they cut a few benefits to lower the need for the tax take, and lower the taxes, encouraging the middle classes to start breeding earlier and with more frequency and actually produce a generation dominated by productive members of society.

[Krayy]

As long as they don't fill the classrooms with Kiddie-Fiddlers like this bloke:

[MisterD]

How about they cut a few benefits to lower the need for the tax take, and lower the taxes, encouraging the middle classes to start breeding earlier and with more frequency and actually produce a generation dominated by productive members of society.

Something sure needs to be done along these lines, tax payers breed tax payers and beneficiaries breed beneficiaries. It's just maths, actually it's simpler than that, it's just sums.

[Hitcher]

Something sure needs to be done along these lines, tax payers breed tax payers and beneficiaries breed beneficiaries.
But in our society their votes count the same. In my society only taxpayers would get a vote. No representation without taxation.

[Lou Girardin]

But in our society their votes count the same. In my society only taxpayers would get a vote. No representation without taxation.
And they'd have to meet an IQ minimum, plus a life experience test.