Democracy For Palestinians [Archive]

terbang

27th January 2006, 22:50

Hamas Have just been democraticly voted into power by the Palestinian's. Wow Isn't that absolutely wonderful news for George Bush as it backs up his reason to now be at war in Iraq. I mean thousands of American soldiers have now died in Iraq in the name of democracy and the Palestinians have done it without American intervention.
I can hardly wait to hear the jubilation coming from the USA about the Palestinians having made thier own democratic decision...
Yeah Right..

Jantar

27th January 2006, 22:56

SARGE

27th January 2006, 23:00

Remember that part of the reason that USA went into Iraq was to keep Israel out of the conflict. I expect that if the Palestinians chose to attack Israel that USA would now step back and allow Israel to respond.

that wouldnt be pretty..

i say we wall off the M.E. and let them go nuts for a few years.. toss in all the confiscated Hashish and guns and then arrest the last man standing for murder.

ive dealt with Hamas, i've dealt with Isreal.. same asshole, different smell

Indiana_Jones

27th January 2006, 23:17

I feel sorry for Isreal, in the middle of a Hell hole, but they have some balls and I won't take shit. too bad the media isn't on their side

-Indy

SPORK

27th January 2006, 23:38

I feel sorry for Isreal, in the middle of a Hell hole, but they have some balls and I won't take shit. too bad the media isn't on their side

-Indy
BUT THE JEWS RUN THE MEDIA ZOMG LAAAAAAAAWLS

Scouse

28th January 2006, 00:57

I feel sorry for Isreal, in the middle of a Hell hole, but they have some balls and I won't take shit. too bad the media isn't on their side

-Indy
Yer dreaming the media always suport israel over Palistine ffs and they (the media) always get it wrong

SixPackBack

28th January 2006, 06:00

that wouldnt be pretty..

i say we wall off the M.E. and let them go nuts for a few years.. toss in all the confiscated Hashish and guns and then arrest the last man standing for murder.

ive dealt with Hamas, i've dealt with Isreal.. same asshole, different smell

The M.E stands a strong chance of going 'nuts' shortly....maybe its the sun. The collective logic of countries in this region is hard to fathom, the importance internationally of oil means unfortunately the west will be forced to step in....although as SARGE mentions walling the place off till all the toys and people are destroyed whilst a great idea is unlikely to happen....more western money wasted and troops will die for their stupidity.

Marmoot

28th January 2006, 06:07

Just a quick correction:

When you are talking about Palestinian and Israelis, they are essentially the same people. Thus, it is not racism but only mere political debate since the essence in the issue is based on nations or political affiliations.

You can keep the debacle going, you're not being racist.

MisterD

28th January 2006, 06:44

You can keep the debacle going, you're not being racist.

I realise this might be straying off at a tangent, but why shouldn't we be allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion?

Race, I understand, it's an accident of birth. Religion on the other hand is a " freely" taken choice to follow a certain set of beliefs. I should therefore be quite able to say, for instance, that "Religion A" which advocates holy war against non believers, is a cancer that should be cut out for the good of the body as a whole.

Marmoot

28th January 2006, 06:49

I realise this might be straying off at a tangent, but why shouldn't we be allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion?

Race, I understand, it's an accident of birth. Religion on the other hand is a " freely" taken choice to follow a certain set of beliefs. I should therefore be quite able to say, for instance, that "Religion A" which advocates holy war against non believers, is a cancer that should be cut out for the good of the body as a whole.

You should be allowed to debate religion, but not discriminate. Actually, we should not discriminate anyone based on anything (ideal situation).

This is more true to major religions of the world (moslem, christianity, budhism, hinduism, etc) which, for most part, have similarities in teaching good values.
Daily interpretations, however, involve extremism from all parts. There are extremists from all religions, and these are the ones we need to stay away.

When you start discriminating a particular religion, you have become an extremist of your own religion and thus have become the same as the people you are discriminating against.

Debating country policies, however, is different from discriminating.

uh........sorry for straying off the topic

SARGE

28th January 2006, 07:03

I realise this might be straying off at a tangent, but why shouldn't we be allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion?

same reason we cant discriminate against the gays, vegans, hip-hoppers, greenies, boi-racers or NZ Idol fans..it might hurt thier feelings..

Race, I understand, it's an accident of birth. Religion on the other hand is a " freely" taken choice to follow a certain set of beliefs. I should therefore be quite able to say, for instance, that "Religion A" which advocates holy war against non believers, is a cancer that should be cut out for the good of the body as a whole.

where will we bury all the X-tians? Organized religion is a crock of shit. read your bible, great; believe in god.. also great...

let someone tell you how to think, what to believe, and how to live.. bullshit.. the weaker the mind, the stronger the religion.

if whatever Gawd you believe in is Omnipotent, why do we all have to meet in a certain place , at a certain time to pray/ sing/ bow/ wank in his honor? cant he come over to US?

oh... right .. cuz if he did, he wouldnt be able to collect the money... Gawd needs a shitload of cash apparently so Brian Tamaki can ride a road rage custom and drive a Lotus

Scouse

28th January 2006, 07:41

same reason we cant discriminate against the gays, vegans, hip-hoppers, greenies, boi-racers or NZ Idol fans..it might hurt thier feelings..

where will we bury all the X-tians? Organized religion is a crock of shit. read your bible, great; believe in god.. also great...

let someone tell you how to think, what to believe, and how to live.. bullshit.. the weaker the mind, the stronger the religion.

if whatever Gawd you believe in is Omnipotent, why do we all have to meet in a certain place , at a certain time to pray/ sing/ bow/ wank in his honor? cant he come over to US?

oh... right .. cuz if he did, he wouldnt be able to collect the money... Gawd needs a shitload of cash apparently so Brian Tamaki can ride a road rage custom and drive a Lotus

Well said Sarge bling awarded

Lou Girardin

28th January 2006, 07:58

I'm no supporter of Israel anymore, but 6,000,000 plus dead Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and the hadicapped should never be forgotten.
It shows what ordinary people are capable of, people like us.

Colemans

28th January 2006, 08:41

I'm no supporter of Israel anymore, but 6,000,000 plus dead Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and the hadicapped should never be forgotten.
It shows what ordinary people are capable of, people like us.

yup agree lou.. but lets not forget the crusades, Spanish inquisition, trail of tears, Pol Pot and the Kurds

WINJA

28th January 2006, 08:49

israel have tank girls , did anyone see that on tv , they got the biggest most powerfull tanks in the world and are itching to use them against those palestinians , cant wat for tank cam

Indiana_Jones

28th January 2006, 09:44

israel have tank girls , did anyone see that on tv , they got the biggest most powerfull tanks in the world and are itching to use them against those palestinians , cant wat for tank cam

It'll happen, Palestinian just push them too far, I mean wtf do you think is gonna happen if you keep killing them with suicide bombers? or dumber still, chucking rocks at tanks lol

-Indy

v.ros`

28th January 2006, 10:07

lol Indy. :laugh:

its funny how u mention that above.... Im not gonna start a massive argument but the palestinians can say the same thing.... they believe that the Jews who are the currently (came after the second world war with the help of the british and france and US).. so these generation have all grown up thinking and believeing that Palestine is their land and the Jews are taking it over...

Now think of it this way..they believe that jews came there and are forcing them out of their land. dont u think they will retialiate ?? 75% of the country voted for Hamas and their main policy is destruction of Israel. Now we all know how strong Israel is , im not aruging that they can crush the palestinian in 2 days... but the reason there are suicide bombers and the reason 75% of the population voted for a Hamas is cuz they have had enough as well.

Now u say how the suicide bombers are killing the israels.. how else would u want the palestinian to fight ?? wen they got no military ? u want them to wait for the US to help them lol ??

haha i gotta give u a bling for that comment !!! Indy.

zadok

28th January 2006, 10:19

Some interesting times are ahead of us!

SixPackBack

28th January 2006, 10:35

Lou Girardin

28th January 2006, 11:40

oldrider

28th January 2006, 12:52

Personally I don't believe Israel should have ever existed. :hitcher:

That does not automatically mean I am in agreement with the Palestinians.

The league of nations and united nations were set up just for this purpose.

That is, the establishment of an independent Jewish state.(Israel)

I think (generalising) they are all bloody mad.

Social disorder and political chaos will be the downfall of man kind. IMHO.

Interesting "Democratic" result though, isn't it.

Such a small percentage (Palestinians, Israelis and Jews generally) of the world population and look at the media attention they get.

What right do they have to inflict so much influence upon "world" affairs?

Who really owns and controls the media?

Why does America continue to support Israel?

Jewish influence on the American election dollar?

I don't really know but it does make you wonder. :spudwhat: Cheers John.

Indiana_Jones

28th January 2006, 13:03

Jews have been pushing to form Isreal for over a century really, and anyway they can't just pick up and leave now can they? lol

-Indy

The_Dover

28th January 2006, 13:15

Why don't we just relocate all the Jews to Australia? It's a hot shithole too and vastly underpopulated. Mind you I have a Palestinian mate who lives in Melbourne and he might get a bit pissy about that. Always found it funny that he carries a passport for a country that doesn't exist.

Ockers, Jews and Lebs all having a fight on the beach in Sydney, might make the airfare overthere worthwhile for a watch. And the Jews can bring the guns and tanks.

Pathos

28th January 2006, 14:00

They've been fighting over that land for thousands of years it doesn't really belong to anyone.

Sure the palestinians don't like the fact that the jews kicked them out but I think the reason most of the fighting is continuing is because palestinians see people far better off from them sitting on 'their' land.

I don't think there would be anywhere near as much violence if the roles were reversed, palestinians were better off than the Israelites and they were the ones being armed by the US and could afford their own army.

I loved the bit in the news where the palestinians started getting ready to kill each other. Shows how many brain cells they've got. They just want to kill stuff. Israel on the other hand just wants to get on with their lives (which unfortunately means wiping out palestine to some .... :/).

As for racism I think its funny how people think its bad to be racist to a people that think they are Gods chosen people :). I can't think of any other racist major religion.

Marmoot

28th January 2006, 14:28

WINJA

28th January 2006, 15:21

What do you mean itching to?
They already do, they'll destroy a house with the family in it because a sniper may have fired from it.
STOP IT YOUR GIVING ME A HARD ON , DID YOU SEE THE PROGRAM IM TALKING ABOUT, DIRTY LITTLE JEW TANK GIRLS MMMMMMMMM

SARGE

28th January 2006, 16:01

Regardless of what has happened in the past [however recent] the key word is COMPROMISE. Other associated words would be tolerance, business and mutual understanding.

sorry its taken me so long to answer this post .. i just stopped laughing:rofl::thud:

we're talking about ARABS here SPB..

oh.. good seeing you up and about today..

TwoSeven

28th January 2006, 16:04

I feel sorry for Isreal, in the middle of a Hell hole, but they have some balls and I won't take shit. too bad the media isn't on their side

Israel dont have a problem with it. Peres today said that it just creates a little bit of uncertainty.

jimbo600

28th January 2006, 16:10

And just wait until Iran gets itself a nuke cos it will eventually. They won't hesitate to fire it at Israel and Israel will of course retaliate in kind. It'll be GAME ON!

SARGE

28th January 2006, 16:11

Well said Sarge bling awarded

no point in pulling punches man.. ask anyone who knows me.. i've never been one to be PC or to soften a blow just to spare someones feelings. an asshole is an asshole in any language (except in Kiwi-speak... then it's an "ARSE-Hole")

jimbo600

28th January 2006, 16:13

no point in pulling punches man.. ask anyone who knows me.. i've never been one to be PC or to soften a blow just to spare someones feelings. an asshole is an asshole in any language (except in Kiwi-speak... then it's an "ARSE-Hole")

You Americans are so polite. We prefer the term cunt down here.

SARGE

28th January 2006, 16:16

You Americans are so polite. We prefer the term cunt down here.

yea.. im polite alright.. Diplomacy is the art of sayin " Nice Doggie", until you can find a big stick

Swoop

28th January 2006, 16:44

And just wait until Iran gets itself a nuke cos it will eventually. They won't hesitate to fire it at Israel and Israel will of course retaliate in kind. It'll be GAME ON!
Iran getting itself a nuke???
While still in range of Israeli fighter/bombers... (tui moment):rofl:

terbang

28th January 2006, 19:25

Here is a scenario worth considering.
Imagine this..
A new Australian Religion is formed (lets call them Lionists for name sake) They are rich and they are not welcome in Australian society because of their elitist attitude. They are looking fror somewhere to go (a new state) and they find a smpathetic ear with dear old England and Queen (the truth is that they have people in high business/political places in England) who offers them New zealand as an alternative. There is sympathy in the world for the lionists because of a severe beating they took at the hands of a rogue senator who killed many. Eventually and at the stroke of a pen it is decreed that the Lionists will now recieve New zealand which is a country, that they liked and believe that they had origionated from. New Zealand is currently populated by people of esentially the same race but of different religion. All New Zealanders must assimmilate or shift to Stuart Island and let the Lionists have the rest..The New Zealanders object and predictably go to war with the Lionists only to recieve a thumping from a well supplied Lion army (by the poms) and backed up by the poms and the Aussies. Naturally they loose the war and are all vanquished to Stuart Island. "But we have been here for 1500 years (well some of us)", they say "You stole it from the maoris" "Ah err hang on us maoris dont want Stuart Island either" and so the debate continues.
The Lions are given Military and Nuclear supremecy (from the Aussies and Poms) while the New Zealanders recieve sanctions and on and on.. The News Media is owned by the Aussies and because we are poor we have none and our true cry is never aired (only the bad stuff).

Now as a born and bred Kiwi I know for sure that if I were forced off my land, gagged, my enemies backed by countries that are richly amused by reality TV, forced into a much poorer state then slated as the bad guys that I would fight to the bitter end with sticks and stones (or terrorism if it was all I had left) if I thought I could get my country back..

I wonder if it is OK for Palestinians to have similar patriotic thoughts after loosing the land they lived on for 4000 years..?

TwoSeven

28th January 2006, 20:59

Your model is slightly flawed I think.

The flaw in your argument was that you forgot that the lionists were ejected by their land by the auslims in the first place :)

N4CR

28th January 2006, 21:28

israel have tank girls , did anyone see that on tv , they got the biggest most powerfull tanks in the world and are itching to use them against those palestinians , cant wat for tank cam

Not the best best tanks, but they have great armour and as that show said they are always upgraded. Too big for anywhere else but israel and you would need a starlifter to transport them if they even fitted in. From memory they weigh 60+ tonnes which is a fuckload for a tank, 120mm cannon etc. Basically israel has to drive them anywhere they want to shoot them which would slow down an invasion quite a bit. An RPG in the right spot would do the trick, or one of those new supposed russian plasma weapons which can bore through a tanks armour O.o
They remind me of the mammoth tanks in red alert (fuck I have a great sig from that game ;) cough cough).

WINJA

28th January 2006, 21:34

Not the best best tanks, but they have great armour and as that show said they are always upgraded. Too big for anywhere else but israel and you would need a starlifter to transport them if they even fitted in. From memory they weigh 60+ tonnes which is a fuckload for a tank, 120mm cannon etc. Basically israel has to drive them anywhere they want to shoot them which would slow down an invasion quite a bit. An RPG in the right spot would do the trick, or one of those new supposed russian plasma weapons which can bore through a tanks armour O.o
They remind me of the mammoth tanks in red alert (fuck I have a great sig from that game ;) cough cough).
60 tons , THATS LIKE 2 GOLDWINGS

The_Dover

28th January 2006, 22:03

Or a StreetMagic with WINJA's lard ass on it!

oldrider

28th January 2006, 22:31

The Palestine/Israeli saga reminds me of the old story of, the Arab the camel and the tent. Briefly, the Arab was sleeping in the tent and the camel (who was cold) gradually cons him out of it by stealth, lies and deception.:ar15:

Finally the camel is in the tent and the Arab is out in the cold and dispossesed.:shutup:

Sounds kinda familiar doesn't it. :shit:

Oh, by the way terbang, the lionists (camels) owned the media not the Australians. :yeah: Close enough though. Cheers John.

Winston001

29th January 2006, 01:16

Yer dreaming the media always suport israel over Palistine ffs and they (the media) always get it wrong

What a curious view. The Western non-US media fall over themselves filming desperate Palestinian stories. The pro-Palestinian bias is very strong. For example that simpering Cameron Bennett did about 6 consecutive stories in Gaza and the West Bank last year.

mstriumph

29th January 2006, 02:03

Originally Posted by SARGE
......................... an asshole is an asshole in any language (except in Kiwi-speak... then it's an "ARSE-Hole")
You Americans are so polite. We prefer the term cunt down here.

...... erm, failed Physiology?:corn:

Scouse

29th January 2006, 06:13

What a curious view. The Western non-US media fall over themselves filming desperate Palestinian stories. The pro-Palestinian bias is very strong. For example that simpering Cameron Bennett did about 6 consecutive stories in Gaza and the West Bank last year.
Not that curious I was watching the 06:00am news on Friday there was Peter Williams saying "Hamas the terrorist organisation that has MURDERD thousands of Israelis over the years have won a landslide victory in Palestine over Night" He didn't mention the tens of thousands of Palestinians Murderd by Israel over the years. Now thats one sided reporting in my book. Or do you think it is ok for Israel to kill Paletinians but when Palestine retaliates this then becomes murder.....? Remembering that for centuries Israel did not exist then after WW2 a group of country's marched into Palistine and say to the palistinians "Ok fuck off into that small corner over there cause these here poor jew's have had a hard time of it lately and so we are all feeling a bit sorry for them and we think they deserve this land more than you so thats it and no dont be stupid of course you dont get to have a vote on it thats called democracy and we only hand out democracy when it suits us"

SixPackBack

29th January 2006, 07:52

sorry its taken me so long to answer this post .. i just stopped laughing:rofl::thud:

we're talking about ARABS here SPB..

oh.. good seeing you up and about today..

Yeah prolly agree, you have to wonder if ARABS have a gene lacking.

Good to see you to SARGE thank Colemans and the lovely Nitro girls for the free Suzuki t-shirt

jimbo600

29th January 2006, 08:14

Not that curious I was watching the 06:00am news on Friday there was Peter Williams saying "Hamas the terrorist organisation that has MURDERD thousands of Israelis over the years have won a landslide victory in Palestine over Night" He didn't mention the tens of thousands of Palestinians Murderd by Israel over the years. Now thats one sided reporting in my book. Or do you think it is ok for Israel to kill Paletinians but when Palestine retaliates this then becomes murder.....? Remembering that for centuries Israel did not exist then after WW2 a group of country's marched into Palistine and say to the palistinians "Ok fuck off into that small corner over there cause these here poor jew's have had a hard time of it lately and so we are all feeling a bit sorry for them and we think they deserve this land more than you so thats it and no dont be stupid of course you dont get to have a vote on it thats called democracy and we only hand out democracy when it suits us"

Now I'm not pro either side. The whole area is a festering boil. However, I do notice that the Israelis seem to target hamas operatives or other hot individuals, and I appreciate others get caught up in the crossfire but they attempt to single out a target. Hamas just bowl up on a bus in a shopping area and blow themselves along with whomever is unfortunate enough to be in the area.

Also I notice that wherever there is a natural disaster the Israelis are often the first to proffer assistance. In all my time on overseas operations I have never seen an Arab rendering help either fiscally or with bods on the ground.

Having said this though all the Arab and Israeli folk I have met over here personnaly have been stand up dudes. Probably why they left their countries of origin.

Winston001

29th January 2006, 12:22

Not that curious I was watching the 06:00am news on Friday there was Peter Williams saying "Hamas the terrorist organisation that has MURDERD thousands of Israelis over the years have won a landslide victory in Palestine over Night" He didn't mention the tens of thousands of Palestinians Murderd by Israel over the years. Now thats one sided reporting in my book. Or do you think it is ok for Israel to kill Paletinians but when Palestine retaliates this then becomes murder.....? Remembering that for centuries Israel did not exist then after WW2 a group of country's marched into Palistine and say to the palistinians "Ok fuck off into that small corner over there cause these here poor jew's have had a hard time of it lately and so we are all feeling a bit sorry for them and we think they deserve this land more than you so thats it and no dont be stupid of course you dont get to have a vote on it thats called democracy and we only hand out democracy when it suits us"

With respect, Hamas has not only indiscriminately murdered Israeli civilians but also other Palestinian political opponents.

Furthermore "tens of thousands of Palestinians murdered" isn't true. However there have certainly been innocent people killed and Israel is responsible for turning a blind eye to the Phalangists actions in south Lebanon in September 1982.

It is a difficult topic. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. The Palestinians have genuine complaints but their argument is really with Britain and the United Nations. Britain controlled Palestine until 1948 and basically walked out expecting the Jewish settlers to be annihilated by the Arabs.

The UN created Israel to try to right a wrong owed by humanity for the Holocaust. Sadly it was the Palestinian Arabs who paid the price by becoming a minority in their own land. I'd be pissed off too.

But the Jewish settlers purchased land in many cases long before 1948. Indeed this started in the late 19th century. And not all Arabs rebelled - many live peacefully in Israel today.

Whats more, if the Palestinians could let go their grievance they could participate in a dynamic country. Israel is a thriving democracy with a strong economy (no oil) and stands in stark contrast to every Arab nation surrounding it. It was largely desert 100 years ago.

CBRAero

29th January 2006, 12:59

The media is left wing. Anyone who thinks that the media is right wing is infact hard left themselves.

As far as Israel goes, while it may not have been a good idea to have it formed, the Jews have just as much right to that land if not more so than the Arabs. It is their ancient homeland. The word 'Jerusalem' is mentioned hundreds of times in the Torah and not once in the Koran...getting the picture? While Jerusalem is the number one Holy site for Jews, the Dome of the Rock is something like #3 on the list for Islam with Mecca/Medina taking the prime spots. Its not so much that the Arabs desperately want the land that is Israel back, more its they want the filthy Jews gone. Their current stance is a great vehicle to achieve that goal as it helps to bear international pressure. Hamas are a little more honest in their stated goals, and to be sure there can be no peace, there never was a chance, not while Islam prevails in its current form at any rate. If their is one inherent flaw in democracy, its that people are to fucking stupid to know how to vote and what is in their best interests.

TwoSeven

29th January 2006, 13:46

As far as I am aware the UN didnt create Israel, it recognised it as a nation - israel was already created when that happened.

Also from memory, the city was called Salem which is an akadian name. When the jews conqured the place it was given the hebrew name yrwslm (remember akkadian, aramaic and old arabic have no vowels). In modern arabic and its forerunner syraic it is ursalim (same pronounciation). Roughly speaking it probably means city/place of peace or something like that.

I think that the cananites (palastinians) jews and arabs etc are all semetic races (similar tribes) who come from roughly the same area - they all have approximately the same right to live there. :)

From what I am aware of the modern dispute has little to do with the old dispute. It started in 1945 with the arab/israeli war which created the state of israel which later resulted in the 1967 war.

The palistinians have been throwing stones ever since - when they finally stop I suspect they will get their land back. I think Hamas have finally realised this (hopefully).

Scouse

29th January 2006, 16:37

Israel is a thriving democracy with a strong economy (no oil) and stands in stark contrast to every Arab nation surrounding it. It was largely desert 100 years ago.

Only because the Americans prop them up with billions in aid both financial and military (no disresect Sarge cause I have always had a great time whenever I have visited the States and have always been treated exceptionaly well and Im not anti American but Im not pro Israel ether I know kinda divided loyaltys)

terbang

29th January 2006, 16:56

History books, especially on conflict, are nearly allways written by the victor thus generallly taking a rather one sided view with the side of the conquered disappearing with them. The news media, whilst trying to accurately depict events, also have to bow down to thier owners political point of view and therefore cannot be an accurate scource of the full story.
Reading some of the posts here I cannot help but notice a few referring to the Isralis being the origional occupiers of the land and that it is an automatic right for them to get it back..! So where does that leave us here in NZ.? The Maori were here well before European though they wern't kicked off it, they certainly lost control of it as a result of european settlement so by your reasoning they should take back control of New Zealand..?

jazbug5

29th January 2006, 19:12

Winston001

29th January 2006, 21:13

The Maori were here well before European though they wern't kicked off it, they certainly lost control of it as a result of european settlement so by your reasoning they should take back control of New Zealand..?

Indeed Maori activists say exactly that. They see themselves as being the same as the Palestinians.

For most of the world, the Diaspora in 325AD (when the Romans moved the Jews along) is nothing more than an historical fact. Just as the English did with the Scottish Clearances in the 18th century, and Red Indians Trail of Tears in the USA.

Reversal of historical oppression is impossible and we can't say that the Israelis have an automatic right to have the land back. Besides the Arabs have an equally long association with it.

How did Europeans come to live in NZ? By conquest. It was called colonisation but reinforced by guns, measles and smallpox. Basically we took the place over and no non-Maori Kiwi today is going to hand it back.

The Israelis settlers in Palestine purchased their land from about 1880 onward. When attacked in 1948 they overran the other side and took control of land which had been abandoned by Palestinian Arabs. Conquest.

So if it is good enough for us to stay here as a result of conquest, why should the Israelis be any different?

Winston001

29th January 2006, 21:23

Only because the Americans prop them up with billions in aid both financial and military

Not back in 1948. There was an international arms embargo. In fact they had ancient guns and were poorly armed, but managed eventually to get weapons from Czechoslovakia.

The Israelis won purely and simply because they were in a trap. The stated aim of the attacking Arab nations was (as it is for Iran today) "to drive the Jews into the sea". They had nothing to lose.

So it had nothing to do with Americans, modern weapons, or money. Just guts and desperation.

29th January 2006, 21:47

The half wits fighting each other in the M.E. reminds me of a great line by Micheal Palin (I think it was him), at the Monty Python reunion about opposing religions. 'They all agree there is one great, kind, loving God and what he said, it's just how he said it that they can't agree on'.
When the fightings over can we have our oil back?

Scouse

30th January 2006, 06:55

Not back in 1948. There was an international arms embargo. In fact they had ancient guns and were poorly armed, but managed eventually to get weapons from Czechoslovakia.

The Israelis won purely and simply because they were in a trap. The stated aim of the attacking Arab nations was (as it is for Iran today) "to drive the Jews into the sea". They had nothing to lose.

So it had nothing to do with Americans, modern weapons, or money. Just guts and desperation.
I wasnt talking about back in 1948 If you have a look at youre post you are saying that Israel IS a thriving democracy. my post in answer to this
Israel is a thriving democracy with a strong economy (no oil) and stands in stark contrast to every Arab nation surrounding it. It was largely desert 100 years ago. is about the present situation the only reason Israel thrives is because America props up Israel with billions in aid both financial and military.

SARGE

30th January 2006, 14:04

With respect, Hamas has not only indiscriminately murdered Israeli civilians but also other Palestinian political opponents.

Furthermore "tens of thousands of Palestinians murdered" isn't true. However there have certainly been innocent people killed and Israel is responsible for turning a blind eye to the Phalangists actions in south Lebanon in September 1982.

.

funny you should mention that .. i was actually part of the UNMNF (United Nations Multi-National Force) that went in to clean up that clusterfuck. because of that, i lost 241 of my brothers. history will never tel you who was responsible for it, but a select few of us know who lit the fuse on that one, and it was NOT Hamas.

Only because the Americans prop them up with billions in aid both financial and military (no disresect Sarge cause I have always had a great time whenever I have visited the States and have always been treated exceptionaly well and Im not anti American but Im not pro Israel ether I know kinda divided loyaltys)

see above as to why i am not pro- Israel. Israel has a way of directing events on a global scale, notwithstanding the destruction of a Marine Amphibious Unit who, for all intents and purposes, was a neutral party trying to buffer the Israelis and PLO

READ THIS (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AMH/XX/MidEast/Lebanon-1982-1984/USMC-Lebanon82/index.html)

chapter 4 is a delightful read....

TwoSeven

30th January 2006, 16:24

I wasnt talking about back in 1948 If you have a look at youre post you are saying that Israel IS a thriving democracy. my post in answer to this is about the present situation the only reason Israel thrives is because America props up Israel with billions in aid both financial and military.

This isnt actually true at all and I would expect you'd be hard pressed to find any material that supports your claim.

From memory Israel has always had a policy of being fully self sufficient, both in arms and food - it develops pretty much all of its own weaponry and equipment. It does however, work on joint defense projects with the US. In the same way that austrialia does.

Israels economy is generally both knowledge based and the conversion of raw (imported) materials to larger products. It also works in the diamond and silicon industries.

SARGE

30th January 2006, 18:24

This isnt actually true at all and I would expect you'd be hard pressed to find any material that supports your claim.

From memory Israel has always had a policy of being fully self sufficient, both in arms and food - it develops pretty much all of its own weaponry and equipment. It does however, work on joint defense projects with the US. In the same way that austrialia does.

.

Israel also works closely with the EU (Mirage fighter) and most of their armor and heavy artillery is the product of israeli development with little or no outside help

jimbo600

30th January 2006, 18:38

Israel also works closely with the EU (Mirage fighter) and most of their armor and heavy artillery is the product of israeli development with little or no outside help

I do believe the alpha armour that used to be on our APCs was of Israeli extraction.

myvice

30th January 2006, 18:59

Just let them go at it, they can settle there differences the same way they have for thousands of years.
And when the dust settles the four or five hundred people left can have all the land they want, wherever they want.
It could be a good idea to let the area purge itself from all of the warring nations, Iran, Lebanon, Sirrea(sp?) most of the Middle East and North Africa would be rubble but its what they want to do and who are we to stop them?
If they are killing each other then they stop bombing us!
If we get them the peace that WE want for them they might end up as a united front against us in the end!
The trick would be to keep other countries out of it, China would back anyone with communist ideals, and Russia would be selling arms hand over fist...
Gives us some entertainment, beats reality TV...

Jamezo

30th January 2006, 19:52

The funniest thing I have read about all this was the start of an article, which read something like: "This election is a saddening blow to America's decades-long campaign to peace for the middle east"

I almost choked on my toast!

Last time I checked, "peace in" is not synonymous with "control of".....

terbang

30th January 2006, 19:53

SARGE

30th January 2006, 20:47

If it were to be decided democraticly the palestinians outnumber the Isralis..?
Militarily the Isralis have Nukes..?

Israel is and remians where it is because of the US and EU intervention..If that suport was fully withdrawn (including the nukes) Israel would probably last about 5 minutes..! Hence the support..

first off.. never underestimate Isreal's military capabilities.. the Jews have been fighting for thier existance for millenia, and are very good at warfighting.

heres some history of the Jewish bomb, pasted from various Google searches..

The center of Israel's weapons program is the Negev Nuclear Research Center near the desert town of Dimona. A nuclear reactor and plutonium production facility was built by France at this facility in the late 1950s and early 60s. All of the production and fabrication of special nuclear materials (plutonium, lithium-6 deuteride, and enriched and unenriched uranium) occurs at Dimona although the design and assembly of nuclear weapons occurs elsewhere.

the US had VERY little to do with Isreal's nukes, and as a matter of fact, The United States had been opposed to Israel acquiring the bomb - an August 2005 BBC investigation showed that in the late 1950s the US rejected an Israeli request to sell it heavy water, because of Israel's refusal to guarantee it would be used only for civilian purposes. Consequently, because the world's largest supplier of heavy water, Norway, did not have enough stock, Britain sold Israel 20 tons of surplus heavy water, without requiring safeguards, or informing the US. The decision to ship 10 tons in June 1959, and another 10 tons a year later, appears to have been made entirely by civil servants at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, without political involvement. A 1961 request for a further five tons was declined - again without ministerial involvement - after a Daily Express report the year before on Israel's activities at Dimona had made the issue too politically sensitive.

i say we give the M.E all the nukes they want...

one warhead at a time....

Swoop

30th January 2006, 21:11

I believe that some of the processes required to construct the "buckets of instant sunshine" were obtained from the US in slightly underhand methods...
Also, their co-operation with the [then] South Africa, for development of technology ... hmmm dosen't SA have the bomb as well? The froggies were heavily involved with armaments since they have no morals and will deal with ANY country or group that waves cold hard cash under their noses.

DevoDave

30th January 2006, 21:43

In 1948 under pressure to seek a solution to the issue of of the homeless of Europe and as a knee jerk reaction to what happened to the jewish populations of Europe under Nazi occupation the UN disinfranchised the indigenous Palestinians and their homeland became the new state of Israel. The Palestinians became second class citizens in their own land. Ans we think that we have a problem in little ole NZ, yeah right. What I cannot understand is the arrogance of a race that underwent the "Jewish Solution" that they have been and are unable to accept another people for what they are. On top of that feed into that formulae Bush's world police force. Expect only be tears and blood and pray that we are strong enough to stay out of the whole mess. What was the content of the secret meeting between one of Bush's own Admirals and our Prime minister, you can bet your las razzoo that the Yanks are trying to drum up support, still with unemployment on the rise.....

SARGE

30th January 2006, 21:57

What was the content of the secret meeting between one of Bush's own Admirals and our Prime minister, you can bet your las razzoo that the Yanks are trying to drum up support, still with unemployment on the rise.....

yea well.. if NZ would let some US Navy ships park up in Devonport, the cash influx would keep the dole blogers in free cheese and lotto tickets for years to come.

maybe the unemployment has something to do with getting off your ass and looking for a job...

McDonalds is hiring...so is Pack n Save

how very Un-PC of me.. :doh:

SARGE

30th January 2006, 22:37

end of the day folks.. the various factions of the Palestinian Authority ( the PLO, HAMAS, Islamic Jihad,the Muslim Brotherhood, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, al-Fatah, PFLP, DFLP, PFLP-GC, etc) will never get thier shit together. right wing vs left vs Center, all trying to drive the jews into the sea and fighting each other to be able to do it.

that sound you hear is the shit hitting the fan

SixPackBack

30th January 2006, 22:54

*Best American drawl*........Daisy cutters..A10's..Artillery..Cruise Missiles...Question's?...... [ Now fucken behave children ]:Police:

Someone mentioned this concept to me recently....call it a social experiment worth enacting for the great TV if nothing else.

SARGE

30th January 2006, 22:59

SixPackBack

30th January 2006, 23:07

did that someone have a yank accent by any chance???:Oops:

Canadian I think....LOL:yeah:

mstriumph

31st January 2006, 01:11

............................Israel is and remians where it is because of the US and EU intervention..If that suport was fully withdrawn (including the nukes) Israel would probably last about 5 minutes..! Hence the support..

bollocks :rofl:
you mean the same way she lasted 5 minutes in 1948 when the bloody brits [ i'm one, so i can say it] departed, carefully handing most armament etc. to the arabs?:confused:
sorry - don't mean to be offensive, but it's a crock .......
you may disagree with the 1948 descision that brought israel into being but you surely can't believe that she only survived thus far because of luck and largess?

SARGE

31st January 2006, 06:30

THIS JUST IN: LONDON (Reuters) - Hamas and President Mahmoud Abbas urged foreign donors on Monday to lift threats to cut vital aid to a new Hamas-led Palestinian government but the United States stood firm, saying it would not directly aid the militant group.

i guess what Hamas is saying is that ' sure we blow up busses, kill innocent people, and want to wipe the Jews off the face of the planet, but...

coud you spare a few bucks....

we're short on Det-Cord..'

MisterD

31st January 2006, 07:13

So if it is good enough for us to stay here as a result of conquest, why should the Israelis be any different?

We're not here as the result of conquest, we're here because lots of Europeans arrived to exploit the local resources and were behaving very badly. So the ToW was cooked up to make NZ part of the British Empire and guarantee Maori the same rights as British citizens.

We have a parliament in this country in which a Maori vote has the same (some would say greater) influence as an non-Maori vote....

rogson

31st January 2006, 08:20

What amuses me is the idealistic and naive view of the Bush administration that forcing a one-man-one vote election miraculously establishes a democracy.

Democracies only endure because they are based on strong democratic institutions - respect for individual property rights, the rule of law, sanctity of contract, an indpendent judiciary, civil service, police, etc., and above all a recognition in the population that these things are more important/fundamental than the views of any particular political faction at any particular time.

I remember reading an article around the time Afganistan was voting for its new president. The chief of a tribe in one of the regions got his advisors together to decide what they were going to do. He subsequently went to Kabul and proudly told one of the candidates that his tribe had decided to participate in the democratic process, that he had decided his tribe was going to vote for the particular candidate and asked which government ministry he would given in return.

v.ros`

31st January 2006, 09:56

Problem in the M.E is they too busy trying to gain power for each other... they just soo damn thick not realising that at the end of the day... everyone in palestine wants the same thing - peace or their own State..

now if they actually work together for this and if all the arab leaders also get together... maybe then they can do something and improve the whole region. They dont realise they have the power to control the whole world economy as they got the biggest comodity in the world - OIL !!!

Marmoot

31st January 2006, 11:16

Democracies only endure because they are based on strong democratic institutions - respect for individual property rights, the rule of law, sanctity of contract, an indpendent judiciary, civil service, police, etc., and above all a recognition in the population that these things are more important/fundamental than the views of any particular political faction at any particular time.

True dat.

Democracy can only be sustained in a society with relatively-high civilization (read: education level), mutual respect for human lives, law and order, and welfare.

Without high education, the so-called democracy scheme becomes a field for everyday propaganda war.

Without mutual respect for human lives, the so-called democracy scheme will be rich with political assassinations and clashes between groups of people.

Without law and order, the so-called democracy scheme becomes a matter of the one with loudest voice and biggest muscle wins.

Without welfare, the so-called democracy scheme becomes simple money-politics.

Introducing democracy in M.E. with a fire-and-forget method is just another way of changing the regime with a new regime.

Marmoot

31st January 2006, 11:18

I remember reading an article around the time Afganistan was voting for its new president. The chief of a tribe in one of the regions got his advisors together to decide what they were going to do. He subsequently went to Kabul and proudly told one of the candidates that his tribe had decided to participate in the democratic process, that he had decided his tribe was going to vote for the particular candidate and asked which government ministry he would given in return.

Sorry, but this happens in New Zealand as well, no?

SARGE

31st January 2006, 13:00

Sorry, but this happens in New Zealand as well, no?

no way??!!
Uncle Helen would never pay for votes..

SixPackBack

31st January 2006, 16:22

"The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega, Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those "good ole boys", we will never "interfere" again."

http://www.gixxer.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB20&Number=2001599&Searchpage=6&Main=2001599&Words=&topic=1&Search=true#Post2001599

Slightly off topic but oh so true....and funny as hell [Robin Williams]

terbang

31st January 2006, 16:23

bollocks :rofl:
you mean the same way she lasted 5 minutes in 1948 when the bloody brits [ i'm one, so i can say it] departed, carefully handing most armament etc. to the arabs?:confused:
sorry - don't mean to be offensive, but it's a crock .......
you may disagree with the 1948 descision that brought israel into being but you surely can't believe that she only survived thus far because of luck and largess?

No offense taken though I usually reserve "bollocks & Crock" for arguements rather than a debate..

So how did Israel survive then?

terbang

31st January 2006, 16:30

Introducing democracy in M.E. with a fire-and-forget method is just another way of changing the regime with a new regime.

True, and in the case of Iraq, an American one..!

SARGE

31st January 2006, 16:36

True, and in the case of Iraq, an American one..!

im sure the Kurds will really miss the gassings and torture. and im almost positive that they may even get a meal once in awhile, now that Hussein isnt using gov't coffers to build golden palaces ( how many palaces did he have in Bagdahd alone?)

god i'll miss those palaces...

TwoSeven

31st January 2006, 16:51

Ok, I know not many people know how diplomacy works. But lets take a look at whats happening.

Hamas a political/military organisation gets elected. The US has to toe the party line and say - we dont give aid to terrorists unless they disarm. Hamas have to toe the party line - we wont disarm ourselves as we require at least some defense.

So. The US dontates its Aid to the UN which gives it to the palistinians (did you know the US gave them us$400m last year) - this gets round the US problem and ensures that the palistinians dont starve. Meanwhile they work with Hamas in how to solve their problem with out them losing face. Its likely to be that the military wing gets spun off into its own armed force (regular army). But that also requires the PLO and Fatah doing the same with theirs. I wouldnt be surprised if you see some compramises in the next few weeks.

In the mean time, they have to keep up a show of being beligerent with each other or they lose face with their home crowed.

When you listen to statements made by diplomats it more important to listen to what is not said, than what is said :)

mstriumph

31st January 2006, 17:41

No offense taken though I usually reserve "bollocks & Crock" for arguements rather than a debate..

So how did Israel survive then?
thanks :) ... i did get a bit carried away :o

suspect she survived same way as anything survives ... prolly same way as you survive in traffic mebbe? :ride:

...... by being determined to survive, keeping your skills/equipment in good order and being just a bit quicker, smarter, more observant and better-disciplined than the forces ranged against you?

Winston001

31st January 2006, 18:31

funny you should mention that .. i was actually part of the UNMNF (United Nations Multi-National Force) that went in to clean up that clusterfuck. because of that, i lost 241 of my brothers.

Small world. I remember the Phalangist attacks because I was bumming around in Egypt at the time. It didn't mean a lot because the facts only came out years later. There was so much going on in Lebanon in the 1980s.

Thanks for the Marines link - interesting stuff. Captain Johnson taking on 3 Israeli tanks is a story as good as that Chinese student in Tianamin Square.

terbang

31st January 2006, 18:42

im sure the Kurds will really miss the gassings and torture. and im almost positive that they may even get a meal once in awhile, now that Hussein isnt using gov't coffers to build golden palaces ( how many palaces did he have in Bagdahd alone?)

god i'll miss those palaces...

Sarge as a man of great ME knowledge maybe you can answer me this simple question. Why are american forces in Iraq? Must have done something pretty bad as its costing the yanks a bomb.. Really is it the WMD?. Pedling Democracy (why only Iraq when there are others)? Are/were they a threat to USA? Is Saddam worse than Mugabe? In cahoots with Bin Laden? Perhaps Mugabe has no Oil?
What..? seems kinda expensive and mad to me.

SPman

31st January 2006, 18:49

True dat.

Democracy can only be sustained in a society with relatively-high civilization (read: education level), mutual respect for human lives, law and order, and welfare. Rules out most countries

Without high education, the so-called democracy scheme becomes a field for everyday propaganda war. you mean - like most countries - including the USA

Without mutual respect for human lives, the so-called democracy scheme will be rich with political assassinations and clashes between groups of people. ...hmmmm...like most countries..

Without law and order, the so-called democracy scheme becomes a matter of the one with loudest voice and biggest muscle wins. like even more countries.....including the USA

Without welfare, the so-called democracy scheme becomes simple money-politics. - yep - like most countries.......

Introducing democracy in M.E. with a fire-and-forget method is just another way of changing the regime with a new regime.
Hey - like most countries out there.....

............................Israel is and remians where it is because of the US and EU intervention..If that suport was fully withdrawn (including the nukes) Israel would probably last about 5 minutes..! Hence the support..
Israel remains where it is cos they are a tough, ruthless bunch of mofo's, who know if they give an inch, they'll lose every mile they have. Not every israeli agrees with this, but, its currently a fact of life!
Cynical!

MOI????

Winston001

31st January 2006, 19:00

So how did Israel survive then?

Bloody good question and one I've wondered about too. From research there are a number of reasons.

Firstly the Arab nations believed that their combined might would bulldoze "the Jews into the Sea".

Secondly the Jewish people do not have much of a history of resistance. They've been pushed around for centuries. Just consider how the Nazis were able to imprison and kill millions. The Arabs had a perfectly reasonable expectation this would happen again.

Thirdly the Arab armies were comprised of poorly trained conscripts. They simply expected to see people running away from them.

Fourthly the Israelis had nowwhere to go. Backs to the wall so it was fight or perish particularly now that they had a home.

So the ferocity of the battles was far worse than the Arab armies ever expected and they faltered. Over time this turned to a rout and the Israelis overran the Palestinian lands. Which is where we are today.

SuperDave

31st January 2006, 19:09

What do you mean itching to?
They already do, they'll destroy a house with the family in it because a sniper may have fired from it.

And the suicide bombers deliberately target civilians, everytime.

SARGE

31st January 2006, 19:17

Small world. I remember the Phalangist attacks because I was bumming around in Egypt at the time. It didn't mean a lot because the facts only came out years later. There was so much going on in Lebanon in the 1980s.

Thanks for the Marines link - interesting stuff. Captain Johnson taking on 3 Israeli tanks is a story as good as that Chinese student in Tianamin Square.

Captain Johnson is an interesting man. i served with him several times and he really plays the incident down. very soft spoken man but he has the 'GAZE' that lets you know he is NOT the man to cross on his best day. lotta hero's came out of that deployment, but you will never hear the stories of most of them.

SARGE

31st January 2006, 19:42

Sarge as a man of great ME knowledge maybe you can answer me this simple question. Why are american forces in Iraq? Must have done something pretty bad as its costing the yanks a bomb.. Really is it the WMD?. Pedling Democracy (why only Iraq when there are others)? Are/were they a threat to USA? Is Saddam worse than Mugabe? In cahoots with Bin Laden? Perhaps Mugabe has no Oil?
What..? seems kinda expensive and mad to me.

terbang.. you really have to understand Geo-politics to know that the Iraq war really had nothing to do with Oil, WMD or unfinished business. read the book America's Secret War (http://www.americassecretwar.com/) and it may give you some insight as to just how far back the War On Terror actually started.

yes.. America armed the Mujadeen in Afganistan in order to defeat the Soviets. ( yes we played puppetmaster on that one.. better than a direct US/ USSR confrontation that would have melted the earths crust..) here you have a ragtag band of fighters taking a superpower to its knees .. case #1.. case #2 the US arming Iraq to fight against the Soviet backed Iranians ( we didnt really care who won that one to be honest as long as they were busy with each other...)

blah blah blah the black-ops keep rolling on and on.. suffice it to say that the Middle east is a chessboard that was and is strategiclly important ( not due to oil.. read the book)

the US stuffed a few things up, but this whole political game is alot like Tetris. one move directly influences the next 5. read the book... it sums the whole thing up better than i can.. might pay to google the term CALIPHATE also

And the suicide bombers deliberately target civilians, everytime.

there was a case about a year ago in iraq where a squad of Marines was handing out lollies to a group of 40 or so children.. truckbomb rolls into the center of the group and detonates, killing 5 Marines, 40 kids and a few civillians. shame to lose all those kids to get at a fw low-ranking Jarheads

you can judge a society by how it treats its women, children and criminals. ( dont start on me about the Abu Garib prison unless you want a verbal smackdown..those guards were pussies in my opinion..give me 30 days in charge and i'd have Bin Laden wrapped up and delivered like a funky, hairy pizza)

here is a snippet of the book....

Scouse

31st January 2006, 19:59

terbang.. you really have to understand Geo-politics to know that the Iraq war really had nothing to do with Oil, WMD or unfinished business. read the book America's Secret War (http://www.americassecretwar.com/) and it may give you some insight as to just how far back the War On Terror actually started.
"Dr. George Friedman" with a name like that he's bound to be impartial lol

SARGE

31st January 2006, 20:11

"Dr. George Friedman" with a name like that he's bound to be impartial lol

it really is an impartial read.. most libraries must have it by now , as it was published in 2004

mstriumph

31st January 2006, 20:26

"Dr. George Friedman" with a name like that he's bound to be impartial lol

?? sorry - you'll have to explain ........... i unnerstand a lot of non-jewish peops got rounded up by the nazis cause they had jewish-sounding names? doesn't pay to make assumptions mebbe?

sorry, mr Hitcher - that's 'arseumptions' of course ...

SARGE

31st January 2006, 20:42

?? sorry - you'll have to explain ........... i unnerstand a lot of non-jewish peops got rounded up by the nazis cause they had jewish-sounding names? doesn't pay to make assumptions mebbe?

sorry, mr Hitcher - that's 'arseumptions' of course ...

yea .. .just because im circumsi.......uuuummm... nevermind

Marmoot

31st January 2006, 21:05

no way??!!
Uncle Helen would never pay for votes..

Yeah, you're right. Sorry. Let's not talk about the foreign minister portfolio. It doesn't exist :blah:

Originally Posted by Marmoot
True dat.

Democracy can only be sustained in a society with relatively-high civilization (read: educatio...

*snip*

...a fire-and-forget method is just another way of changing the regime with a new regime.
Hey - like most countries out there.....
Anyway, SPMan, you're right. That rules out most democratic nations as really democratic. The point is: if you're dirty, clean yourself before telling others to clean up :blah:

SARGE

1st February 2006, 08:54

Yeah, you're right. Sorry. Let's not talk about the foreign minister portfolio. It doesn't exist :blah:

Anyway, SPMan, you're right. That rules out most democratic nations as really democratic. The point is: if you're dirty, clean yourself before telling others to clean up :blah:

A lynch mob is an example of pure democracy in action. There is only one dissenting vote, and that is cast by the person at the end of the rope.

Swoop

1st February 2006, 11:38

A lynch mob is an example of pure democracy in action. There is only one dissenting vote, and that is cast by the person at the end of the rope.
Right. That one goes into the classic quotes for 2006...

SARGE

1st February 2006, 12:11

Right. That one goes into the classic quotes for 2006...

i feel so honored...:tugger:

terbang

1st February 2006, 15:07

A lynch mob is an example of pure democracy in action. There is only one dissenting vote, and that is cast by the person at the end of the rope.

Democracy is usually closely associated with Justice and lynch mobs have nothing to do with modern Justice. Unless you ride off to start a war in Iraq in defiance to the UN advice (UN also a democraticly elected body).
How democratic..Yeah right..

Red-neck quote of 2006 perhaps..

Lou Girardin

1st February 2006, 15:11

terbang

1st February 2006, 15:31

Photo of Graffiti on the fence around Ground Zero.
Ground Zero is a sobering sight in anyones books and I can certainly identify with the public wanting blood over it.
This photo was taken by myself just shortly after they caught Saddam and I'll leave it up to the individual to draw thier own conclusion as to who knocked the World Trade Centre down.

SARGE

1st February 2006, 15:36

Democracy is usually closely associated with Justice and lynch mobs have nothing to do with modern Justice. Unless you ride off to start a war in Iraq in defiance to the UN advice (UN also a democraticly elected body).
How democratic..Yeah right..

Red-neck quote of 2006 perhaps..

a pure Democracy is the most self destructive form of government to exist. Pure "democracy" is rule by majority. In effect, it is mob rule. When a lynching occurs, the democratic majority is just exercising its will upon the democratic minority. The trick to surviving in a "democracy" is to always agree with the majority. The majority is never right. Who are the people that make up the biggest proportion of the population --- the intelligent ones or the assholes? I think we can agree it's the assholes, no matter where you go in this world, it's the idiots that form the overwhelming majority.

i think you are confusing the term "Democracy" with "Republic" (which the US and to some extent NZ are)

terbang

1st February 2006, 15:39

i think you are confusing the term "Democracy" with "Republic" (which the US and to some extent NZ are)

Nup just stating that there is no room for lynch mobs in a modern society and that when the US went to war it was against the UN advice (that I guess they want to be party to)..

SARGE

1st February 2006, 15:44

Nup just merely stating that there is no room for lynch mobs in a modern society..
'

but as i stated, a pure democracy is in effect a mob rule. a democratic republic on the other hand, has a small number of elected officials to make and enforce the laws,

a democracy is whatever the majority feel is right. im sure no one wants that, knowing how fickle we humans are.

looks to me that the Palstinians have just got thier Democracy..:Oops:

Marmoot

1st February 2006, 19:44

Nup just stating that there is no room for lynch mobs in a modern society and that when the US went to war it was against the UN advice (that I guess they want to be party to)..

yeah rrrrright......

Mob lynching happens everyday, only that tomatoes and rotten cabbage have been replaced by pen and papers.

Sarge is right, it's all about majority lynching the minority.

If the majority doesn't like dogs, then dogs should be leashed at all times. If the majority can't bloody drive, then common-denominator rule applies for roads. If the majority doesn't like speed, then speeding is crime. If the majority doesn't like bikes, then we are fooked.

That sounds bloody familiar, aye?