WTF has howstuffworks.com been smoking??? [Archive]

skidMark

29th January 2006, 16:12

Steering a motorcycle at low speeds is a straightforward process. The rider simply turns the handlebar in the direction he wishes to go. This only works at speeds below five miles an hour. If a motorcycle is traveling any faster, the rider must use a different kind of steering, known as counter-steering. This type of steering may seem counterintuitive. That's because motorcycle riders must push the handlebars to the left to make the vehicle turn right and vice versa.

Here's how it would work out on the street. Imagine that you're riding a motorcycle on the interstate. In front of you, blocking the right half of your lane, is a wreck or some other obstacle. If you're a novice rider, you might be tempted to push on the right side of the handlebar, thinking this will turn the bike to left. In reality, this will steer the bike to the right, directly into the obstacle. Instead, you should push on the left side of the handlebar, which directs the front wheel to the right but steers the vehicle to the left.

im so fuking confused...

heres the link as well...

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/motorcycle5.htm

i apoligize if this makes me look like a complete noobie

but if you wanna go right why the hell would you turn the bars left LOL

somebody please enlighten me as to WTF

sunhuntin

29th January 2006, 16:15

i never understood that either. but so far i havent managed to steer into anything, so must be doing ok [that car steered into me, lol]

skidMark

29th January 2006, 16:17

considering you mainly lean a motorcyle..

i think this guy is a powerslider lol

k14

29th January 2006, 16:20

considering you mainly lean a motorcyle..

i think this guy is a powerslider lol
nope, they are 100% correct. Go out and try it and you'll see what they are talking about.

skidMark

29th January 2006, 16:22

hey i just ride i don't really think about it havn't failed a corner yet so i must be doing something right lol guess i do it naturally then?:S lol

vtec

29th January 2006, 16:25

Your motorbike doesn't magically lean over. You have to push the handlebars to the left to manoeuvre the wheels to the left handside underneath you so that your bike leans to the right, and vice versa. The description is completely accurate by howstuffworks.

I'd say you are countersteering your bike, it comes naturally if you ride at anything faster than 30k/hr.

Toast

29th January 2006, 16:28

hey i just ride i don't really think about it havn't failed a corner yet so i must be doing something right lol guess i do it naturally then?:S lol

That's exactly it, you do it naturally, like most people. Making it a conscious process can give you greater contro and understanding though, especially when make side to side transitions. Read a Keith Code book...

skidMark

29th January 2006, 16:30

skidMark

29th January 2006, 16:35

makes a little hat and writes in vivid marker a big "D" and puts it on his head for the rest of the day LOL :confused:

Toast

29th January 2006, 16:35

i just lean it over i guess i do i was just like wtf when i read it just sounded funny but yeah i hardly "push the bars"

i lean through the corner ive noticed if i try to purposely "steer the bike" with the bars it seems to fight me back ....hmmm all making alot of sense now lol

meh i see the corner i turn it ...who cares how as long as i turn it i'm happy

i wish i understood gyroscopic forces lol as you say it comes naturally

Thing is, steering the bike quicker in to a corner (the initial tip in) means that you use less lean for a given speed...so your ultimate cornering ability, all other things held constant is higher if you turn-in faster, which is where counter-steering the bike helps. I think that top dudes have steering rates of like, 100 degrees per second, or something like that...

Colapop

29th January 2006, 16:37

Isn't there something like that in the road code? I'm sure they've got a diagram or something?

skidMark

29th January 2006, 16:40

i aint got a motorcycle roadcode ahhhh the dangers of riding on a car license then aye ......mind you ive done my basic handling test just gotta do the theory...when i can be arsed lol

Colapop

29th January 2006, 16:47

No dis man, just seen something about that somewhere (and my head don't work too well on a Sunday)

Sniper

29th January 2006, 17:03

Seems like they are onto it.

Back Fire

29th January 2006, 17:11

Gixxer 4 ever

29th January 2006, 17:59

Oddly enough they are right. As you ride along a straight road try it some time. Just a little and you will note the bike will lean over. When you go out and go hard on a windy road you will find this type of steering will give you a lot of cortol in the corners. It is a great way to ride. Don't try and teach a newbie to ride like this cos they will think so much about it you they will struggle. It really works and is the step up to better riding when you get confidence.

Ixion

29th January 2006, 18:06

Off topic, but has anyone ver built a twp wheel steer bike - where the rear wheel steers also, so the front and rear wheels can follow the same curve radius ? Anyone want to? And ride it? While I watch?

Toast

29th January 2006, 18:17

pritch

29th January 2006, 18:27

i hardly "push the bars"

With a little bike you probably don't need to, but if the bike is:
A, heavy
B, slow steering or
C, going very quick

you will need to countersteer.

There are other things you may need to do, like weighting a peg, but you do need to know about counter steering. You do need to practice it or when you really need to get out of the way of something you won't be able to do it.

Winston001

29th January 2006, 18:46

marty

29th January 2006, 20:06

countersteering works on the principle of gyroscopic precession, that is, on a gyroscopic plane (your front wheel) the result of any input will occur 90 degrees in the direction of rotation. think about it. travelling @ 50km/h. pull on the right handlebar, the bike wants to fall/lean/turn to the left. by pulling on the right bar, you are applying a turning force through the axle, effectively trying to push the back of the wheel to the left, and the front of the wheel to the right. precession however, inputs this force 90 degrees in the direction of rotation, and pushes the top of the wheel over to the left - the bottom is 'fixed' to the road, so instead of pushing the bottom of the wheel to the right (not quite but almost) twice the force goes to the top of the wheel - to the left. bingo - countersteering.

helicopters are controlled in exactly the same manner, except the disc ariculates around the mast - you can see the disc tilt in the direction of flight - the input though is 90 degrees before the desired result.

R6_kid

29th January 2006, 20:13

hey i just ride i don't really think about it havn't failed a corner yet so i must be doing something right lol guess i do it naturally then?:S lol

as you will never ride a real bike this will never apply to you.

marty

29th January 2006, 20:14

Here is a somewhat longer explanation. Basically the wheel falls off toward the road on the opposite side to which the handlebars are turned. This is caused by the forward rake of the front wheel and the shape of the tyre itself, which is rounded. A square car tyre would not behave like this.

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html

increased rake actually decreases the effect of countersteering, as the effect of rake 'fall' is greater than that of gyroscopic precession. a square car tyre does suffer from precession, but it is fixed by the axle and drivetrain, and therefore overcomes the small precession force, and turns in the direction it is literally forced to go.

Mental Trousers

29th January 2006, 20:33

Simple test to show how it works. Grab the front wheel off a bicycle. Hold on to it with both hands on the axle and spin it. Now push your right hand forward slightly (not hard or you'll loose skin on your arm). What you would expect to happen is for the front of the wheel to move to the left - but it won't. What'll happen is the bottom of the wheel will try to step out to the left, making the whole wheel lean to the right. That, is exactly what happens when you're steering a motorbike, done subconsciously if you haven't been taught.

vtec

29th January 2006, 20:55

I think some of you guys are overcomplicating the countersteering theory.

Firstly all the gyroscopic force does, is resist any change in direction of the spinning thing (ie. the wheel).

Secondly just roll a wheel along the ground. When you turn it to the left... low and behold it moves to the left. On a motorbike, this translates to the tyres underneath you moving to the left, thus leaning the bike to the right. The reason why a bike wants to straighten up is mostly to do with the caster angle. It might have something to do with gyroscopic forces, but I never really thought of that before. I reckon its a combination of gyroscopic force and the caster angle.

James Deuce

29th January 2006, 21:12

Err, isn't that EXACTLY what Marty said vtec, but with grown up words? ;)

ducatilover

29th January 2006, 22:08

countersteering works on the principle of gyroscopic precession, that is, on a gyroscopic plane (your front wheel) the result of any input will occur 90 degrees in the direction of rotation. think about it. travelling @ 50km/h. pull on the right handlebar, the bike wants to fall/lean/turn to the left. by pulling on the right bar, you are applying a turning force through the axle, effectively trying to push the back of the wheel to the left,
turning the back wheel to the left? i would have thought it would be trying to go straight ahead? like when you corner to the left in a cage you feel you are pushed to the right but you re actually still trying to stay on the same vetcot/direction you were going in before the force was applied to you? its all that 6th form physics with centrapetal force etc:confused:

skidMark

29th January 2006, 22:26

as you will never ride a real bike this will never apply to you.

how about a nice warm half empty glass of shut the fuck up

and i was out riding tonight and tried ye countersteering....i'm the idiot lol it just seemed random...and shit does it feel weird lol.... but when i get the hang of it ill be a better riding....just hope i don't fall off while learning lol grab some :corn: people this will be interesting :corn: :corn: :corn:

Magua

29th January 2006, 22:31

Countersteering. When I came across it in the roadcode my first reaction was wtf. As I'm sure it was it is for many people.

sunhuntin

29th January 2006, 22:45

i to was studying that tonight....i noted that i was more pulling one bar than pushing. more study tomorrow i think.

skidMark

29th January 2006, 22:51

maybe this is why so many bikers get owned on corners :blank:

Lee Rusty

29th January 2006, 23:42

i aint got a motorcycle roadcode ahhhh the dangers of riding on a car license then aye ......mind you ive done my basic handling test just gotta do the theory...when i can be arsed lol

the AA dont take BSH certificates after 3 months - so if you cant be arsed you will be paying all over again.

skidMark

29th January 2006, 23:43

ooo shit now wtf do i do lol

DogBreath

29th January 2006, 23:44

Well, c'mon, who's a puller and who's a pusher.
I find I use the right hand to dive into a tight left hander (pull), but often I use the right to make a right (push), but not everytime.
I spent weeks fucking around with this and gave up analysing it, just letting it flow.
But that right pull sure throws you into a tight left, real sweet.

If you are still riding after a few weeks I bet you counter steer. Now way out of it. But are you a puller or a pusher?

skidMark

29th January 2006, 23:45

just checked it i have until the 23rd of feb better get my shit together lol

thanks for that lee rusty :)

skidMark

29th January 2006, 23:47

im just a natural :tugger:

lol nah i dunno i just ride

Shadows

29th January 2006, 23:48

I find it almost impossible to corner properly any other way. Always came naturally, I think I learned it riding bicycles since whenever it was but I was pretty small. It kind of turns the front wheel in such a way that it tries to run off in the opposite direction from where you actually want the bike to go. This has the effect of leaning the bike over in the correct direction so when the pressure on the bars is reduced everything straightens up again and the bike goes where it is leaning. Effortless and quick, no need to throw your weight around trying to haul the bike over, that takes too much time which you don't have unless you want to do Superman impressions over somebody's car bonnet. I can kind of picture it all but fuck knows if I really understand how it works, a bit like the missus really. :confused:

skidMark

30th January 2006, 00:02

a bit like the missus really. :confused:

if you can understad women we should have you put down for pretending to be a man,

i think even most women don't understand themselves (lol i'm kidding i'm single qkchk?anybody LOL haha!!!!!!)

skidMark

30th January 2006, 00:02

and welcommen to the site also

Shadows

30th January 2006, 00:23

Cheers dude

ducatilover

30th January 2006, 09:03

so are you actually counter steering or does this just straighten the bars/wheel? because wouldnt that enable more of a lean angle??:stupid: :wait:

Slingshot

30th January 2006, 09:30

Countersteering just happens, weather you know that it's happening or not...it happens.

When you know about it though you can speed up your corning...especially going from a tight left hander, straight into a tight right hander. There's nothing better than the feeling when you pull hard with you right hand and push hard with your left to take the bike from fully leaning to the left right over to fully leaning to the right.

ducatilover

30th January 2006, 10:01

So technically markauckland, you own a 650 without a license?
silly youth! who in their right mind would own a 650 without the appropriate licensce?:rolleyes: :argh: :mellow:

Sniper

30th January 2006, 10:05

Damn, mixed you too up, sorry DL

ducatilover

30th January 2006, 10:06

Damn, mixed you too up, sorry DL
i was going to say i thought i was the silly king. :Oops: :bash: :banana:

marty

30th January 2006, 10:07

turning the back wheel to the left?:confused:

it's back OF the wheel to the left. read it again. i'm talking about the FRONT wheel.,

Pixie

30th January 2006, 10:17

maybe its something to do with changing the centre of blance for the bike? because, and im not 100% sure of this, that you counter steer to enitiate a corner and when the bike starts leaning it the bars start turning in the right direction of the turn... eg turn left to go right and then the bars start turning right once leaned over. not 100% sure but I remember reading that somewere :blank:
When you steer to the left to initiate a right turn,the road applies a force at the tyres contact patch pushing the tyres left.This force tries to rotate the bike around it's centre of mass in an axial direction,and along with gravity,causes the bike to lean to the right.Once the angle of lean matches the angular acceleration dictated by the speed of the bike and the radius of the turn,the steering is bought round to right of center and the bike is in a balanced state of lean.
The process is reversed to bring the bike upright as it exits the turn.

Simple

Ixion

30th January 2006, 10:21

Sideways, and front AND rear steering. It'll take the world by storm, folks. Just need to add an engine.

Press Releases: Inventor Patents Bicycle that Travels Sideways

Press Releases

Tired of the straight and narrow? Boston inventor granted US Patent # 6598892 for bicycle that travels sideways.

The bicycle is the worlds best loved invention. After 200 years a Boston man has invented a different bicycle. The Sideways Bike travels sideways and has front and rear wheel steering. The US Patent office granted US Patent # 6598892 on July 29 2003 to Michael Killian for the Sideways Bike.

SVrunner

30th January 2006, 10:35

Pixie

30th January 2006, 10:44

increased rake actually decreases the effect of countersteering, as the effect of rake 'fall' is greater than that of gyroscopic precession. a square car tyre does suffer from precession, but it is fixed by the axle and drivetrain, and therefore overcomes the small precession force, and turns in the direction it is literally forced to go.
Rake,trail and gyroscopic precession play their parts in how a bike steers and handles from a "feel" point of view.
The process by which a bike corners is as discribed in post #47.
Tony Foale and Vic Willoughby,in their book "Motorcycle Chasis Design" described the effects of different geometries on steering.
They built a bike with adjustable Hossack front suspension,and tried rake angles from nearly zero to 27 degrees,and trail values of 2 to 4 inches
To cut a long story short,the steering at rake angles between 0 and 15 degreeswas light and stable,the bike could be ridden at 100 mph hands off with no wobbles.The trail had the main effect of altering wether the bike wanted to stand up at smaller angles of lean.

The gyroscopic forces affect mainly the speed the steering turns under the forces applied by the rider and the road and not so much the speed the bike can transition from turning to straight line travel.

Pixie

30th January 2006, 10:50

We all naturally counter steer we just don't know it.
Counter steer does make you turn faster & is a less effort when going around 90degree corners, by helping lean the bike over more quickly.
Have fun practicing.
Let's correct the terms we use.
Bikes can not be steered in any useful way,other than by counter steering.
Any other technique is initiating a wobble.
So let's refer to conscious counter steering and instinctive counter steering.

HenryDorsetCase

30th January 2006, 13:57

Steering a motorcycle at low speeds is a straightforward process. The rider simply turns the handlebar in the direction he wishes to go. This only works at speeds below five miles an hour. If a motorcycle is traveling any faster, the rider must use a different kind of steering, known as counter-steering. This type of steering may seem counterintuitive. That's because motorcycle riders must push the handlebars to the left to make the vehicle turn right and vice versa.

Here's how it would work out on the street. Imagine that you're riding a motorcycle on the interstate. In front of you, blocking the right half of your lane, is a wreck or some other obstacle. If you're a novice rider, you might be tempted to push on the right side of the handlebar, thinking this will turn the bike to left. In reality, this will steer the bike to the right, directly into the obstacle. Instead, you should push on the left side of the handlebar, which directs the front wheel to the right but steers the vehicle to the left.

They are absolutely right. find a vacant carpark and try it. or ride for a while (gently) on the road and give it awhirl

MSTRS

30th January 2006, 14:28

This countersteering stuff is easy. In case it's not been said before - whenever you go on the lean, the bike is countersteering anyway without the rider having to 'do' anything. At speeds above not much more than walking pace, you will have to lean the bike to execute a turn. Countersteering is happening.
If you push forward/down on the inside handlebar, you will simply hurry up the process & magnify the effect.
Watch how some riders move from turn to turn with a smooth, flowing style - they are using the lean process. Then watch how some riders seem to 'snap' into a corner & back to upright - they are using the push (or pull) process.
Easy

R6_kid

30th January 2006, 16:09

how about a nice warm half empty glass of shut the fuck up

and i was out riding tonight and tried ye countersteering....i'm the idiot lol it just seemed random...and shit does it feel weird lol.... but when i get the hang of it ill be a better riding....just hope i don't fall off while learning lol grab some :corn: people this will be interesting :corn: :corn: :corn:

what i meant to say was that although it will work on your bike, but due to the size/wieght differnce of you to your bike vs you to a real bike, it is just as easy to lean on your bike as it is to counter steer.

Countersteering on a 'real' bike is much more effective and has saved my ass many times.

Korea

30th January 2006, 16:23

Cornering is 100% steering the bars, and by that I mean countersteering.
Push with your inside arm, relax your outside arm and see how quickly the bike is on its ear.
See Lee Parks' book "Total Control"
http://www.webbikeworld.com/books/total-control.htm
and
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=18611
for more on this...

oldrider

30th January 2006, 17:22

Have a look at the thread that has a picture of Motu riding the gravel roads of Hamilton I think it was. Perfect ballance, angle and control. Have a look at his front wheel and you will see all you need to evidence counter steering. I think the man is near perfect on his bike and I have never seen him ride. Correction,I have never seen him but I bet I'm right. Cheers John.

nudemetalz

30th January 2006, 21:20

What about "how to highside an RS-125 on the race-track" ?

Counter-steer right to lean into a left-hand sweeper,....keep the pressure on while machine leans further,....feel the knee-slider touch, and then keep the pressure just so, as the corner straightens out, start pouring on the power and let go of the pressure a little to bring the bike up,...bit more power,..OOPS back end is stepping out too far,...OOOHHH....shut the throttle,....back end stops completely and whole bike stands up straight immediately, ejects the rider off the seat and on the track.....he then slides along on his nice new John Kocinski Shoei,.....this goes for about 150 metres and he comes to a stop...gets up, notices his wrist is broken,...YELLS at the flag marshall at the corner who is looking the other way and is virtually asleep,...and as there's no response now wonders what to do as numerous other bikes coming out of the same sweeper are coming for him...he then decideds not to run but to stand there just in front of his fallen bike so as to be visible,...miraculously all of the bikes race past without hitting him...and then he runs off the track,..just as the flag marshall realises and waves his yellow flag..

oops I got off the subject a little...and my wrist still gives me grief 8 years later....

Motu

30th January 2006, 22:06

These ones OldRider? Thank's for the compliments,I don't consider my self a good rider,but experianced,with a lot of different styles to choose from.I've always loved to slide.In the second photo I'm just stepping the rear out in a powerslide - once you are sliding the rear,it's all done with counter steering,riding the gyroscope.

Another thing to do with your bicycle wheel spinning on it's axle,after you have turned it right and felt the wheel tilt left - tilt the spinning wheel left,hey,now the wheel turns left.This is your ridgedly held rear wheel,your are tilting it left,it wants to turn left.In the picture on the beach I am countersteering a left turn,my spinning rear wheel is turning me left too.

TwoSeven

31st January 2006, 21:52

Roughly speaking I figure it kind of works like this.

So, you want to turn left and push on the left bar. This turns the wheel to the right - called a negative slip angle (when the tire is pointing in the opposite direction you want to go). When this happens the bike falls over (but does not want to turn). The force on the bars required to initiate this falling over is a factor of castor angle and trail. The longer the trail, the more the wheel will try and align itself with the direction of travel and the harder you have to push to get it to turn.

After the bike falls over, the slip angle goes positive as the wheel swings back to the direction you want it to (into your turn). As soon as the slip angle becomes positive, the bike turns.

Why, because as the wheel is leaned over something called the cone effect takes place (push an icecream cone along the floor you'll find it goes round in a circle). For it to work, both ends of the imaginary cones have to be hitting the ground - if not the bike goes straight. The radius of the turn depends on the length of the imaginary line from the tire to the other end of the cone. If this is equal to the radius of the corner, you will go round the corner. If its not, you will either under or over steer.

There is also the rear wheel slip angle and two other cone angles on the bike - but they are not terribly important to know about for street riding :)

Thats how I understand it, so if I am wrong please feel free to correct me - I'm still working on some math for it.

Motu

31st January 2006, 22:18

Ever ridden a bike on square tyres (sidecar tyres,car tyres)? Countersteering still works.....

TwoSeven

31st January 2006, 22:28

yip - all the time. :)
still works the same way as I said - just more enjoyable :)

vtec

31st January 2006, 22:35

Ever ridden a bike on square tyres (sidecar tyres,car tyres)? Countersteering still works.....

Only if you've already got oversteer.. Stop trying to confuse them. :P

skidMark

31st January 2006, 22:46

this is entertaining to watch the cogs go round :corn: :corn: :corn: :corn: :corn:

SPORK

31st January 2006, 22:49

LooooooooooooooooooooL markaucjkland

Motu

31st January 2006, 22:54

yip - all the time. :)
still works the same way as I said - just more enjoyable :)

Never said it was fun! ;) I know about the cone effect...people easily get confused on how a bike works because there are several forces at work - and the best part is,you don't even have to know! It just works,ask any 5 year old - it's just magic.

FROSTY

1st February 2006, 07:23

yooz guys is awl wrong.bikez go round cornaz cos the bike gods let them.
sometimes you piss off the bike gods so you fallz off--so says baby bikie

IMHOcounter steering works cos you have 2 bloody great big gyroscopes
one spinning at each end of your bike -
but hey I know nuffing

TwoSeven

1st February 2006, 20:13

I dont think the gyroscopic effect of the wheels has much at all to do with the actual turning of the bike. But I am still working this problem out, so it may well do.

As I see it a wheel that is run as a castor (like a shopping trolly) will try and center itself if its moved forward. The angle of the castor dictates how much force it will use to try and center itself.

So according to this theory to get the bike to lean over, you need to overcome that castor effect. This is done by pushing the bar away from you to create a negative slip angle. Then the wheel will trip up over itself and fall over.

The force required to push the bars varies depending on the castor angle at the time you push it. Consider the following.

Given a Honda CBR600 with a castor angle of 25 degrees and a fork offset of 41.3062mm, running a 110/70-17 tire the trail will be 91mm.

If you change that tire to a 120/70-17 which will increase the height by 7mm roughly speaking you will end up with a new trail of 94.3mm an increase of approx 3mm (roughly 3%).

The effect is that you should notice that the bars are harder to turn.

What I am trying to figure out at the moment is how much the castor angle changes when the tire is at different angles and at different heights/pressures.

Motu

1st February 2006, 20:26

My brother had a chop with a homemade springer front end (the only way to have one was to make it in those days) It was well made and really looked the part,a big long rocker to give it that stretched out look.That put the front wheel contact point well forward of the steering axis - we measured it at eight inches negative trail!

I rode it often,and never noticed a problem,it was stable and still countersteered!

Skyryder

1st February 2006, 21:34

The best advice on steering: look where you're going and you will go there.

Skyryder

TwoSeven

1st February 2006, 22:42

As i understand things there are only two ways you can get a negative trail 1) point the forks backwards or 2) dont mount the wheel to the forks.

Also, a negative trail would force the wheel to turn around until it was postive again - either that, or the bike is being driven in reverse :)

Ixion

1st February 2006, 22:49

I think girder forks could have negative trail (not that one would want it) ??
Um, maybe leading link forks too ???

Motu

2nd February 2006, 06:23

Girder forks often had optional links to reduce trail for sidecar use.Springer forks use a lower rocker,same as a C50 - the rocker on my brothers bike was about a foot long,this moved the wheel contact point ahead of the steering axis.Other forces came into play to make it riderble.