Taking responsibility for one's own life

[Hitcher]

An enigmatic heading, I know, but one that I hope becomes clearer. Please bear with me...

On the news over the weekend was the story of a couple of mothers who were distressed that ACC money wasn't available to provide counselling for their traumatised children who have witnessed horrific events -- notably one witnessed his father being stabbed to death. A terrible business.

Without wanting to denigrate the benefits of counselling services provided by skilled and competent counsellors, I was perplexed by this odd line in logic.

My take on what these women were saying is "Counselling only works if somebody else pays for it". If counselling is the answer to their children's problems, then why haven't they taken steps to ensure that this service has been made available, rather than condemning those kids to unspecified mental trauma for the rest of their lives. ACC doesn't pay, the kids don't get counselling. It's a bit like not taking your kid to A&E after they've broken a limb because you might have to pay.

If I had been the reporter I would have asked the question "So what steps have you taken to ensure that your child receives appropriate counselling and, if none, why not?"

And what's wrong with telling people that they're ferkin idiots?

I have been observing the perennial discussion in a couple of other threads about idiots who don't wear appropriate gear whilst riding motorcycles. They're ferkin idiots. Should I ignore them and pretend they don't exist? So there are no laws that prescribe what bikers should or shouldn't wear, apart from a securely-fitting helmet. Does the lack of relevant and appropriate regulation forgive the mental capacity of people who should know better? Telling me it's their life and their decision as to how they choose to live it is, in our society, crap. Who is going to pay for the months of plastic surgery for these dickheads after they spread their skin over hard, abrasive and resilient materials? Not them, that's for sure. If I were their mothers I'd probably expect ACC to pay for counselling as well. Mine.

[Sniper]

Well said Hitcher

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Dam well put could not agree more have to have:2thumbsup for that

[EZAS]

Counsellling eh ... sad issue.

Mrs and I have issues for the last 6 years, been together for 8. Never took counselling cos we thought we couldn't afford it. Finally managed to get a bit of money behind me, took the better option and went to get some help. ONLY TO FIND OUT I get 6 sessions free, BUT there is a course better suited to me that costs $40 a session and that I would getter 'better' results. Free healthcare VS private LOL.

Don't you think its strange that those on the bottom-end incomes tend to be more affected by mental illnes? This gets way to policitical.

As for the ACC thing, Perhaps if we had more strict regulations on what we HAD to wear, we might be able to lower the ACC levey on the rego's. :) its worth a thought. either way .. I agree I'd want my kids to have the best counselling if it had happened to me (paid for by ACC.

[Groins_NZ]

Good, interesting point, worthy of consideration, contemplation and I'm sure, a good deal of disscussion.

[yungatart]

I don't believe the State should have to cover everything, I have paid for one of my kids to have surgery-on more than one occasion- because I didn't want him to languish for goodness knows how long on the public lists for what was really minor stuff, but at the same time was affecting his quality of life. If people can't be sensible/adult/mature/reasonable or whatever, why should I or any other taxpayer pick up the slack for them. My mumalways used to say- if you go and kill yourself doing stupid things, then don't come crying to me- my thoughts exactly!

[Jackrat]

I see I still can't put you on my (ferkin'):killingme ignore list.
What's with that shit???
Far more important to me than your bitching about OTHER PEOPLES intelligence.

[Winston001]

Agreed. Its a funny old world today. If you skin your knee, or your girlfriend drops you, its off to the counsellor for some psychic massage. Virtually any event which causes human distress results in the warm breathy advice to get some counselling.

Until recent times the counselling industry didn't exist. People talked to grandparents who had wisdom and were respected, or their local minister/priest. Communities were more close knit and there were people who could be trusted to listen to you and give sensible advice.

These don't seem to be options today in our secular society.

So counsellors do have a role and meet a need. Indeed counselling is a very good thing in lots of circumstances. Certainly if I had a child/relative who needed trauma counselling I'd organise it.

The ACC problem is that the door is partly open already. A person gets assaulted, they are entitled to counselling. Their child who sees it happen isn't. Yet the one event (the assault) affects both people. So it seems irrational that one person gets help and the other doesn't.

But that is the rule that ACC has to operate by and if there is to be any change then it has to come from Parliament. And our levies will rise accordingly. :(

[Hitcher]

My point wasn't about an apparent "double standard" for ACC providing counselling services: that is another argument entirely (and one on which I have strong views). My point was about parents/care-givers denying their children appropriate and relevant care because they think that somebody else should be taking responsibility for organising and paying for it.

[mangell6]

Hitcher, Keep in the back of your mind when reading or watching any article that the media is there to produce money, responsible and "fully" informative journalism does not exist (phew sweeping statement I know. But I recently read an article from a newspaper person who said the same thing about the media in NZ.)

The current society is about "someone" else being responsible for my inability to "insert reason here".



As for the ACC thing, Perhaps if we had more strict regulations on what we HAD to wear, we might be able to lower the ACC levey on the rego's.

EZAS, to "regulate" removes the "responsiblity" from individuals and society, then the "Regulatory Authority" becomes responsible.

There are enough "agencies" out there that offer "services" IF someone REALLY wants something bad enough. But remember that I want to sit here and be told what I have to do not think of it myself OR make a decision.

Mike
JMHO

[cowpoos]

the mothers would hav found that the counciling was free...and paid for by tax payers... but that is only if the kids in question were demeed in need of it other wise they would be told to pissoff....which is what I'm presuming happened...

and I totally agree with your point about the parents taking responsability for the kids well being... if they believed counceling was nessecary the should hav paid for it... twats

[idb]

My point wasn't about an apparent "double standard" for ACC providing counselling services: that is another argument entirely (and one on which I have strong views). My point was about parents/care-givers denying their children appropriate and relevant care because they think that somebody else should be taking responsibility for organising and paying for it.
I largely agree but counselling is an interesting one.
It isn't seen by most people (in NZ anyway) as a form of care that one would purchase like a dentist or GP for the benefit of one's health.
It has always been provided by an agency such as Police, Red Cross, St Johns or whomever and usually in response to a collective traumatic event such as an earthquake or bus crash.
True that these folks should examine the logic of their complaint a bit more closely but they are likely starting from a position that does not consider counselling as an individual health responsibility.

[lia]

while I wholeheartedly agree with you hitcher re taking responsibility for ones self (and family - particularly children) however you are presuming that the parent is able to afford to do the counselling. This is not a 'youthline' kinda situation and while I would presume that victim support (and likeminded non-profit orgs) would have it covered ... it seems Victim Support has been lobbying re lack of funding from ACC this for some time now.

In all systems there are gonna be holes and ACC sure has plenty of them. I know from experience and continue to pay for it 4 yrs later :violin:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=17791

I say that we are better to be informed, hear the personal situations (as this is the only way debates/chances/policy reviews are gonna be made) and form our own opinions according to each case.

[lia]

Counsellling eh ... sad issue.

Finally managed to get a bit of money behind me, took the better option and went to get some help. ONLY TO FIND OUT I get 6 sessions free, BUT there is a course better suited to me that costs $40 a session and that I would getter 'better' results. Free healthcare VS private LOL.

.

This is for 'relationship counselling' that the govt subsidies up to 6 sessions. Highlights how when 'holes' are highlighted the government does patch ups ie. this was probably in relation to increasing divorce rate.

There are many self help groups, not for profit orgs. and government funded organisations trying to address specific areas sometimes its just hard to know where to look to figure out where to go (particularly while in crisis mode) although I guess thats what the C.A.B is for aye?! :slap:

[mangell6]

At least the ACC minister is a decent person, one who takes responsibility for ones actions.

The thread is about the people 'blaming' someone else for their own inaction, at least that is how I read it. Man it is warm today, 26 in the lounge, might have to go for a swim to cool off. But I can't decide.

[Colapop]

What interested me with these cases is the situations that these people were in where their kids had to witness these crimes. In the first case the child witnessed the father getting stabbed and in the second the child found the stabbed father. Without knowing the full story it's hard to place judgement. To my knowledge it is not everyday occurence for a parent to be stabbed either in front of their child/children or to be stabbed then found by their child/children. While there are crimes of this nature that happen to people who would not normally be in the 'wrong place at the wrong time', the majority of stabbings/killings happen because somebody is involved with people who would, and do, commit this sort of crime and others.
I would have thought that if these people wanted their children to be cared for they would have gotten them away from those situations in the first place. That would be responsible parenting... Then you wouldn't hear about them complaining that ACC isn't helping. Just after another handout if you ask me.

[marty]

she could move to invercargill, do a social services certificate for free at southland polytech, and do her own councelling.

it's just a thought....

[marty]

oh hang on - that would involve helping yourself, instead of waiting for everyone to jump for you

[myvice]

oh hang on - that would involve helping yourself, instead of waiting for everyone to jump for you
You hartless bastard! How dare you expect people to help themselves or there children!
It pisses me off how many times you hear the "I've done nothing and am all out of ideas. Why isn’t the government giving me a cheque?"
But I'm in South Auckland so it’s expected here! People have no desire to stand on there own feet, often, as in this case, to the detriment of their children.
Wouldn’t shed a tear if ACC was scraped, get health/medical cover as a work perk and everyone pays less tax.
Which is why it won’t happen.

[KATWYN]

My point wasn't about an apparent "double standard" for ACC providing counselling services: that is another argument entirely (and one on which I have strong views). My point was about parents/care-givers denying their children appropriate and relevant care because they think that somebody else should be taking responsibility for organising and paying for it.


Hey Hitcher, my perspective on your origional post is that the mothers never actually said that just because ACC wont pay then they won't provide their children with trauma counselling some other way? They just said that ACC wouldn't pay for it??

[Hitcher]

My assumption from watching the article was the kids had not received any counselling. A corollary being that counselling is no good unless somebody else organises and pays for it. Another corollary being that if the child had had a broken limb or a "real" medical condition, a caring parent/care-giver would have taken urgent action earlier.

My original post was not "getting" at counsellors (I believe suitable skilled ones can do wonders) or the ACC system. It was about taking personal responsibility. Hence the dig at bikers who fail to take adequate precautions to ensure the well-being of themselves or their pillions.

[KATWYN]

My original post was not "getting" at counsellors (I believe suitable skilled ones can do wonders) or the ACC system.

Yea thats right, you did make yourself clear in your origional post

I thought that it was the case, I just never saw the
programme. - You are right, its pretty bad people don't take responsibility

[MD]

Well said Hitcher. Sadly you and me are idiots. We left school and chose to get a job without reading the fine print about becoming a tax payer.

Forthwith you must work to feed and care for your self and your family. No hand outs allowed to working scum like you. In addition - this is the sting, you must pay for those others that chose to let you support them.

Why after decades of working has no one else ever been forced to support me. The health system I thought I was paying for treats workers like second class scum. Ever tried public health without a community card. So I have to pay more for health insurance to get what I was supposedly paying for.
Oh dear, you've depressed me and I'll have to pay for counselling.

[madboy]

"Hi, my name is [insert dumbass name here]. I got knocked up at 16 so I didn't finish school. [puff] Not that I was there much anyway, aye! Now my eldest baby is 9, and my other babies are 7, 6, 4 and 2. Their fathers are all really good guys, oh except the father of the youngest one, but he'll be out soon so we'll see how that goes. [puff] I really love him, aye. He treats me real good, it's only every now and then that he loses it. I can't get a job, aye, cos like who's gonna look after my babies? [puff] And like, I can't get a job that'll pay enough. I've never worked, aye. And like da Warehouse pays shit. I see those rich f***kers in like new cars, own their own house, but I can't afford that aye. You know, like, I've got debts aye. And I got a XBox on layby for da kids for Christmas. WINZ is real good. They help out like when I run outta money and can't afford the groceries, which is quite a bit aye. [puff] There's so much tax on cigarettes, I reckon that's just rude. I mean it's over $10 for a pack, and that's like a day or two max [puff]."

This is what NZ is breeding.

[myvice]

"Hi, my name is [insert dumbass name here]. I got knocked up at 16 so I didn't finish school. [puff] Not that I was there much anyway, aye! Now my eldest baby is 9, and my other babies are 7, 6, 4 and 2. Their fathers are all really good guys, oh except the father of the youngest one, but he'll be out soon so we'll see how that goes. [puff] I really love him, aye. He treats me real good, it's only every now and then that he loses it. I can't get a job, aye, cos like who's gonna look after my babies? [puff] And like, I can't get a job that'll pay enough. I've never worked, aye. And like da Warehouse pays shit. I see those rich f***kers in like new cars, own their own house, but I can't afford that aye. You know, like, I've got debts aye. And I got a XBox on layby for da kids for Christmas. WINZ is real good. They help out like when I run outta money and can't afford the groceries, which is quite a bit aye. [puff] There's so much tax on cigarettes, I reckon that's just rude. I mean it's over $10 for a pack, and that's like a day or two max [puff]."

This is what NZ is breeding.

"Gee, sorry to hear that.
If you would just like to come with me for a moment and stand in front of this wall, yes the one with the pock marks, and I'll be back in just a moment to collect your body... YOU, to collect you... Wont be a tick..."

[Beemer]

I'm self-employed and my husband works full-time and we get no hand outs at all. I pay for my own medical insurance and if I'm sick and can't work, tough luck. If I have an accident, they will pay me a percentage of the money earned in the previous eight (I think) weeks. So I don't want to have an accident at Christmas because I'd more than likely get 80% of nothing! We pay for everything we own ourselves and don't get any tax breaks because we don't have kids.

Any wonder we get annoyed when we see many of those on benefits doing nothing to deserve them - other than being young, pregnant, thick and lazy. Our parents would have had too much pride to take something for nothing, they would have taken any job, no matter how low it paid, before they'd accept a hand out.

It's about time people realised that everyone has the potential to "have it all", whatever that is, the only obstacle is getting off your bum and working for it. You make your choices and you live with them, stop blaming other people for your lack of ambition and desire!

[vifferman]

My original post ... was about taking personal responsibility.
Indeed.
It's a sad indictment of our times and culture that people are to ready to blame others, blame the Gubmint, or to cry, "There should be a law against it!", rather than say, "I'm going to do something about this / admit it's my fault / take a stand / sort it out / help with this." Or whatever.

So we have things like "killer roads", new laws passed seemingly every day, gradual erosion of our personal liberties, and an increasingly irresponsible and selfish population. Where's it going? :spudwhat:

[enigma51]

Its the same story (only no tax money involved) with the fitness at school thing. There is a group of people (not ethnic specific) that think there childrens well being is the responsibility of the goverment etc well you did the breeding you do the teaching etc. Its just to easy for people to run to the goverement funds and get things for "free" and if they dont they bitch about it while the children (in this case) suffer. Yes bitch about it but make sure your child gets the best there is to offer.

The thing that suprises me is that about 80% of people i have spoke to about these types things (like the benefit etc) feels that its a load of shit or is it that i am just speaking to the wrong people? so how come if so many people feel so strong about a subject nothing gets done about it?

A well i dont have children so what do i know!

[KATWYN]

?

A well i dont have children so what do i know!


For a start you not having children gives you the ability to look
at the situation objectively with no bias or emotion to cloud your
judgement

[ManDownUnder]

The state has been looking after so many for so long, people don't know to look after themselves.

Them - "I need councelling... ACC HELP!"
ACC - "No."
Them - "hmmm - it seems I don't need councelling"

Should be
Them - "I need councelling - can I get it from the State?"
ACC - "No."
Them - "OK - now I need to fund it another way"

Note - I didn't say they don't know HOW to look after themselves. They do. They just don't think to do it.

Sad really.

Edit - I offer (as further evidence) the recent discussion on Schools finding an hour a day to get kids exercising - make 'em less fat! Why is the school responsible for my kid's physical health? I thought it was a place of learning.

[sels1]

Keep in the back of your mind when reading or watching any article that the media is there to produce money, responsible and "fully" informative journalism does not exist

Agree. Sadly the quality and accuracy of the news media has certainly declined over the last 20 years, as the market forces have become more dominant. However, this is ofset a bit by the new technologies that allow us to see the pictures faster/from further/ etc.
(Hopefully soon I will be able to watch the News with the mute on, like I do with some sports!)

[MisterD]

Whatever happened to the great Kiwi notion of "hardening up"? We're breeding successive generations of people who's first response to anything is to stick their hand out...

[idb]

Whatever happened to the great Kiwi notion of "hardening up"? We're breeding successive generations of people who's first response to anything is to stick their hand out...
HARDEN UP
What a brilliant motto for our times!!
I like it a lot!

[buellbabe]

What interested me with these cases is the situations that these people were in where their kids had to witness these crimes...
????
Hey Colapop, the same thought went thru my head...



"Hi, my name is [insert dumbass name here]. bla bla bla [puff]."

This is what NZ is breeding.
And madboy, well I live in Sth Auck and although you were making a generalisation... sadly yr right, there is an awful lot of that mentality.

I reckon yr life is what you make it, I'm single,own a house , bike and car and I work my butt off for everything I have. I don't expect handouts from the Govt. I was brought up to work for a living.

[idb]

I'm single,own a house , bike and car ......
Will you marry me?

[ManDownUnder]

HARDEN UP
What a brilliant motto for our times!!
I like it a lot!

Agreed - but every time I do, I get slapped...

What IS it with women these days?

[Badcat]

I have been observing the perennial discussion in a couple of other threads about idiots who don't wear appropriate gear whilst riding motorcycles. They're ferkin idiots. Should I ignore them and pretend they don't exist? So there are no laws that prescribe what bikers should or shouldn't wear, apart from a securely-fitting helmet. Does the lack of relevant and appropriate regulation forgive the mental capacity of people who should know better? Telling me it's their life and their decision as to how they choose to live it is, in our society, crap. Who is going to pay for the months of plastic surgery for these dickheads after they spread their skin over hard, abrasive and resilient materials? Not them, that's for sure. If I were their mothers I'd probably expect ACC to pay for counselling as well. Mine.

Man - arguing with a moron is a waste of breath.
i tried, it just pissed me off.

k

[Lou Girardin]

The danger of the argument that "people shouldn't do xyz because the taxpayer ends up paying for them" is that it can be used to proscribe all sorts of activities
Boating will have to be banned because rescues are so costly, ditto most outdoor pursuits. Motorcycling will be banned outright.
Even unmarried shagging could be banned due to the load it puts on health services.
As long as there's taxpayers funds for traditional Waka navigation courses, there must be money for other stupidities.

[Hitcher]

I agree with you to a point, Lou. There are dangers associated with all elements and aspects of human endeavour. Life is, after all, a sexually-transmitted terminal disease.

But failure to take suitable and appropriate precautions is the ball in play. Going boating with no flares, radio, cellphone, oars, etc is similar to motorcycling with no protective gear or playing rugby without a mouthguard. Currently ACC doesn't discriminate on the basis of whether or not people failed to take sensible precautions to mitigate the effects of shit happening. Maybe they should?

[myvice]

If I get a hunk of steel in my eye at work, and I wasn’t wearing goggles, my boss is in the shit.
But if goggles are supplied and I wasn’t wearing them then I'm in the shit.
ACC love to fine big amounts of $$$
Why is any other activity any different? If you have to be rescued off your boat and have no flares or radio then shouldn’t you have to pay for the wasted time and extra people it took to find you?
I like the percentage idea, leathers (or whatever), boots, gloves, helmet and a back protector? you get 100%
Helmet covers about 10% so that’s what you don’t have to pay.
Sounds fair.

[Winston001]

The state has been looking after so many for so long, people don't know to look after themselves.

Them - "I need councelling... ACC HELP!"
ACC - "No."
Them - "hmmm - it seems I don't need councelling"

Should be
Them - "I need councelling - can I get it from the State?"
ACC - "No."
Them - "OK - now I need to fund it another way"

Note - I didn't say they don't know HOW to look after themselves. They do. They just don't think to do it.

Sad really.

Edit - I offer (as further evidence) the recent discussion on Schools finding an hour a day to get kids exercising - make 'em less fat! Why is the school responsible for my kid's physical health? I thought it was a place of learning.


Bang on you got it. We live in a society where personal responsibility has shrivelled away. It is a natural result of Nanny State which has its genesis in the Michael Joseph Savage government of the 1930s. Where once people had pride and were self-reliant, today every responsibility rests on someone else. Usually the government and its departments.

All very well but we aren't likely to see social democracy rolled back any time soon. Roger Douglas tried but mention his name today and people foam at the mouth without actually reflecting on the purpose of the reforms.

And indeed I wouldn't want to see ACC, labour laws, basic benefits etc done away with. So quite how we ever instill a concept of looking after ourselves instead of turning to the state, I don't know. I suppose student loans is one lesson that life can be hard.

[MisterD]

Edit - I offer (as further evidence) the recent discussion on Schools finding an hour a day to get kids exercising - make 'em less fat! Why is the school responsible for my kid's physical health? I thought it was a place of learning.

Didn't this used to be called PE lessons?

[MisterD]

But failure to take suitable and appropriate precautions is the ball in play. Going boating with no flares, radio, cellphone, oars, etc is similar to motorcycling with no protective gear

Isn't riding so fast that you lose control or are unable to take avoiding action when another road user does something stupid also failures to take suitable and appropriate precautions?

Pushing the limits of yourself and your bike on the public roads is celebrated on here, yet anyone who dares to go out in shorts is a lunatic that shouldn't be allowed out without their Mum...if you're going to go out and try to get your knee down on every corner then full leathers is sensible, if you're going to cruise gently around on a sunny day then if you wanna wear shorts and T-shirt go for it.

As someone else said in another thread (sorry can't remember who and where), don't worry about it they probably don't fall off.

[outlawtorn]

And what's wrong with telling people that they're ferkin idiots?
Political correctness, people in this day and age are far too scared they might offend someone so everyone has to tip-toe around everyone else and their "feelings" so that no one gets hurt.

I fucking hate political correctness, I've said it before on this website and I'll say it again: "Political Correctness is the language of cowards"

[tracyprier]

Well said Hitch... sound thinking (you're obviously not in government then)

I particularly agree with the bit about protective gear because you're right, in this country it is MY (our) taxes that pays for their rebuilding and THAT's why I also get pissed off seeing these 'tards roaring around half nekked.

If this was the 'states and it was the "you pay for it or miss out" system then fine... ride buck naked for all I care, they are the one who will be paying the bills but over here it just means more and more of what I earn goes towards patching up dickheads.

rant mode end.

[Lou Girardin]

But failure to take suitable and appropriate precautions is the ball in play. Going boating with no flares, radio, cellphone, oars, etc is similar to motorcycling with no protective gear or playing rugby without a mouthguard. Currently ACC doesn't discriminate on the basis of whether or not people failed to take sensible precautions to mitigate the effects of shit happening. Maybe they should?

OK. I'll agree when the playing filed is leveled. Especially sports injuries, why should we pay for those?

[ManDownUnder]

Didn't this used to be called PE lessons?

Not at my primary school. At high school yes - and that was 2 hours a week to teach us specific skills like rugby, swimming and running. Sure it was exercise and I believe that was one of the goals, but don't d it at primary school where the fundamentals of learning are being installed in our kids.

Not at the expense of Maths or writing or any of the other wonderful stuff they do.

And why burden the teachers with it? Hell - they have enough on their plates (especially when marking and after school activities are expected of them). From what I can see - the nett result will be school removing some of thge academic work fro the classroom, to the tune of 5 hours a day (1/7th of their total time in class... ). This means kids will need extra tuition to keep up to where they were, and the only place that can really happen is at home...

So in effect, parents aren't doing something about their kids getting fat, so the schools do, which (should) place extra responsibility on the parents to teach them school stuff.

Why not place the main responsibility for school stuff on the school, and the main responsibility for health and welfare on the home? Or is that too obvious (and the Nanny state would feel left out)?
MDU

[buellbabe]

OK. I'll agree when the playing filed is leveled. Especially sports injuries, why should we pay for those?

Yeah but you could apply the same logic to any accident... shit happens why should joe public have to contribute their taxes...
People who come here from other countries are astounded by our welfare system, they can't believe how lucky we are.
Unfortunately it does get exploited!

[Hitcher]

OK. I'll agree when the playing filed is leveled. Especially sports injuries, why should we pay for those?
A full and frank discussion on the merits or otherwise of a "no fault" accident and injury insurance programme could well be debated in another thread...

[Lou Girardin]

shit happens why should joe public have to contribute their taxes...


It's called society. It's supposed to be about the have's contributing to the have nots. And about spreading the burden of maintaining that society.
The alternative can be seen in Rio, for example.

[Ixion]

Well said Hitch... sound thinking (you're obviously not in government then)

I particularly agree with the bit about protective gear because you're right, in this country it is MY (our) taxes that pays for their rebuilding and THAT's why I also get pissed off seeing these 'tards roaring around half nekked.

If this was the 'states and it was the "you pay for it or miss out" system then fine... ride buck naked for all I care, they are the one who will be paying the bills but over here it just means more and more of what I earn goes towards patching up dickheads.

rant mode end.

So, extending this logic, when Squidly McSquid comes off his GZXRRR1000 and puts himself in hospital for 6 months because he was determined to get his knee down in every corner, HE should pay the hospital bills, not ME from my taxes . Yes? After all part of personal responsibility has to be RIDING SAFELY , so you DON'T CRASH. And yes, that may mean the unthinkable - slowing down.

And as far as personal responsibility goes, if we're talking wanting to make people wear saftey gear, then the biggest single piece of gear you can wear to improve your likelihood of not needing medical treatment, is a reflective vest. So that's got to be top of the list of "mandatory gear" . Right? Always amazes me that the folk who are the loudest on the magic gear bandwagon are the very ones who swear they'd NEVER wear such a thing.

No? You're not keen on either of those ideas ? But it's personal responsibility isn't it? Or is it just slagging off riders who aren't perceived to be "cool" ?

[Badcat]

So, extending this logic, when Squidly McSquid comes off his GZXRRR1000 and puts himself in hospital for 6 months because he was determined to get his knee down in every corner, HE should pay the hospital bills, not ME from my taxes . Yes? After all part of personal responsibility has to be RIDING SAFELY , so you DON'T CRASH. And yes, that may mean the unthinkable - slowing down.

And as far as personal responsibility goes, if we're talking wanting to make people wear saftey gear, then the biggest single piece of gear you can wear to improve your likelihood of not needing medical treatment, is a reflective vest. So that's got to be top of the list of "mandatory gear" . Right? Always amazes me that the folk who are the loudest on the magic gear bandwagon are the very ones who swear they'd NEVER wear such a thing.

No? You're not keen on either of those ideas ? But it's personal responsibility isn't it? Or is it just slagging off riders who aren't perceived to be "cool" ?


for me - it wasn't about MAKING anyone do or wear ANYTHING.
it was about telling people who ride bikes without decent gear that i think they are stupid. I think they are stupid, and i have the right to say that - don't i? or are we being so PC that i can't say that i think they are stupid?

stupid,
stupid,
stupid,
stupid.

[tracyprier]

So, extending this logic, when Squidly McSquid comes off his GZXRRR1000 and puts himself in hospital for 6 months because he was determined to get his knee down in every corner, HE should pay the hospital bills, not ME from my taxes . Yes? After all part of personal responsibility has to be RIDING SAFELY , so you DON'T CRASH. And yes, that may mean the unthinkable - slowing down.

And as far as personal responsibility goes, if we're talking wanting to make people wear saftey gear, then the biggest single piece of gear you can wear to improve your likelihood of not needing medical treatment, is a reflective vest. So that's got to be top of the list of "mandatory gear" . Right? Always amazes me that the folk who are the loudest on the magic gear bandwagon are the very ones who swear they'd NEVER wear such a thing.

No? You're not keen on either of those ideas ? But it's personal responsibility isn't it? Or is it just slagging off riders who aren't perceived to be "cool" ?

actually I always wear a reflective vest when communting, riding at night or in foul weather.

And I think there is a point at which you look at someones behaviour, be it hooning it up on the open road or riding around half naked... or going boating without flares, life vests etc and say... "they didn't take any kind of reasonable precautions so why the hell should the rest of us pay for their patch up / rescue.

Ok, people wearing full riding gear still sometimes die in accidents but at least they were making an effort.

[Ixion]

actually I always wear a reflective vest when communting, riding at night or in foul weather.

..

Yith. So do I . And jacket, gloves, boots. Cos I don't like being hurt. But I don't think that just because I do, everyone should be expected to. Maybe if they don't they're stupid. Or maybe I'm a Nana. I know a lot of people who would say that anyone who rides a motorcycle at all, no matter what they wear, is stupid, And lacking personal responsibility. I make my own call on where to cut off the risk. Others may make a different call.

[Winston001]

Political correctness, people in this day and age are far too scared they might offend someone so everyone has to tip-toe around everyone else and their "feelings" so that no one gets hurt.

I fucking hate political correctness, I've said it before on this website and I'll say it again: "Political Correctness is the language of cowards"

I don't like it either but have come to accept that it isn't always wrong. Political correctness is aimed at avoiding offense and at changing attitudes. There is a fine line between calling a spade a spade and offending the person you are talking to.

I'm all for plain-speaking but if I refer to the present Labour government as wannabe lesbo social engineers (cos they are :puke: ) then the response is going to be outrage about calling Trevor Mallard etc lesbians. The allegation of a particular feminist social agenda of our government gets overlooked entirely.

Accordingly if you use objectionable words rather than polite words, the listener gets completely side-tracked with anger at the words you've used instead of hearing the message.

[Hitcher]

A good example of this is the Anglican Church in New Zealand which invested a couple of squillion hours putting gender-neutral language in the Book of Common Prayer. And then they forgot "manifold sins and wickedness", as I constantly remind my mother...

[Grahameeboy]

I have issues with ACC, classic eg is drunk guy gets in car, hits tree, seriously injured, gets red carpet treatment, 80% of his pay, quick assessments, help getting back to work etc compared to child born with disability, parents have to find support and fight for childs rights, waiting list for assessments is 10 times longer, even on 'Elite List' and fighting for equipment......just to add to the stress of having a disabled child.
Just a quick rant:done:

[Winston001]

I have issues with ACC, classic eg is drunk guy gets in car, hits tree, seriously injured, gets red carpet treatment, 80% of his pay, quick assessments, help getting back to work etc compared to child born with disability, parents have to find support and fight for childs rights, waiting list for assessments is 10 times longer, even on 'Elite List' and fighting for equipment......just to add to the stress of having a disabled child.
Just a quick rant:done:

My sympathies Graham, that is quite a load to bear. It isn't any help but when ACC was originally introduced, it was intended to be extended to sickness as well after 2-3 years. Never happened in part because of the 1973 oil shock to the economy.

But there certainly is an irrational unfairness between illness and accident.

[Lou Girardin]

And as far as personal responsibility goes, if we're talking wanting to make people wear saftey gear, then the biggest single piece of gear you can wear to improve your likelihood of not needing medical treatment,?

Would be gaitors, to prevent trench foot.

[Ixion]

Only in wet weather, but. Now THERE'S a thought. Fluorescent gaiters. I may be onto something here !

[myvice]

Fukit, ride naked, hope for the best and no one will remember your face!

[SPman]

Going boating with no flares....
You wont get me wearing flares in a boat - or anywhere else, for that matter...!

[Hitcher]

And no, they're not what randy young Aussie men send their girlfriends on Valentine's Day...

[mstriumph]

;) thank you mr hitcher - i have mountains of respect for you and enjoy your posts, hugely .... even when i can't agree with them or when the arguement isn't taken thru to its logical conclusion.

i have followed this thread thru its various meanderings .... "taking responsibility for one's own life" ... sounds like an 'either/or' situation but, actually, it's really only a matter of degree/just a line drawn in the sand, isn't it? a line that wavers first one way, then the other following the general perception of what is "acceptable" and what is not?

the level of welfare in nz may seem like overkill to you [does to me, too ] but as long as people continue to elect/support people who perpetuate and extend this it won't diminish - instead of bemoaning those that wrought the system, working through the political process to CHANGE THE SYSTEM might be the way to go? pull that line in the sand back a little? - needless to say, though - those more liberal than either of us will be working just as hard to push the boundary forward .... and a balance will be struck

similarly - safety gear whilst riding .......... if you honestly believe that legislated measures are inadequate then, instead of bemoaning those that excercise their democratic right to wear the bare minimum, working through the political process to CHANGE THE LEGISLATION might be the way to go? --- needless to say, though - those with a broader viewpoint will be working just as hard to draw parallels between motorcycling and other inherently dangerous passtimes [sporting activities, recreational angling and the like]... so that the balance can be maintained.

because - when it comes down to it, THAT may change behaviour ..... which calling people who don't agree with you names and denigrating them for taking responsibility for themselves by making up their own minds what legally-permitted choices are appropriate for them won't? :corn:

[Hitcher]

Another way of looking at this issue is captured nicely by a sign at a golf club where I was once a member. It goes like this: "Do not use cellphones on the course. Please don't make us pass another rule!"

There are many laws and regulations whose need could be obviated if people played together nicely and used some common sense.

[idb]

Another way of looking at this issue is captured nicely by a sign at a golf club where I was once a member. It goes like this: "Do not use cellphones on the course. Please don't make us pass another rule!"

There are many laws and regulations whose need could be obviated if people played together nicely and used some common sense.
And there, dear Hitcher, is the fly in the ointment of your dream.

[scumdog]

Would be gaitors, to prevent trench foot.

Hey, I wear them, and d'you know what? I don't have trench foot!!:blah:

[mstriumph]

:confused: but ... if it just says "Don't ..........." without a 'please' in front, then its already a regulation? .........

a world without rules sounds great in theory ..... but in practice even two people trying to live together have to have some sort of framework of do's and don'ts, formalized or not, to operate within ......

[James Deuce]

Legislation and common sense "rules" are related in the way that book and bible (koran, talmud, whatever) are.

Enforced compulsion with punitive penalties, and a framework of common sense cooperation are two very different animals. In fact one is probably a mineral rather than an animal because it calcifies into precedent, regardless of changes in general or personal behaviour, particularly over time.

The issue described here makes me wonder why "the media" decided to make an issue out of this story at all. Many people get turned down for all sorts of help they are supposedly entitled to, every day. Many of them just get on with it without fanfare.

There is no plight in this particular case at all, no real struggle apart from that which many people experience during their life without making an arse of themselves, and counselling is nothing more than someone listening to you and acknowledging that you need to get your shit together. You know, that job that parents, friends, family, co-workers, teachers, community leaders, and church leaders are supposed to do.

Life goes on. You can't stop that unless you choose to, and a great lump of our society needs a good kick in the arse so they know they need to make that choice.

Wasting your life waiting for a Government sanctioned "listener" goes waaaay beyond ridiculous.

[idb]

I reckon there could be a lucrative career opportunity for big-bosomed middle-aged women in flowery dresses and aprons and smelling of baking to give out big motherly hugs and say "There, there".

[Lou Girardin]

I had a Merkin rental customer in today. He thought that T shirt, jeans and boots was just dandy. Gloves are for when it's cold and $150.00 fine for no helmet is worth the risk.
Different strokes etc.

[Badcat]

I had a Merkin rental customer in today. He thought that T shirt, jeans and boots was just dandy. Gloves are for when it's cold and $150.00 fine for no helmet is worth the risk.
Different strokes etc.

well - in Bill Hicks immortal words...
"oops - we're down a moron".

[idb]

I had a Merkin rental customer in today. He thought that T shirt, jeans and boots was just dandy. Gloves are for when it's cold and $150.00 fine for no helmet is worth the risk.
Different strokes etc.
You were observing Darwin's theory in action.............

[Lou Girardin]

Maybe, but he's in his forties, never wears a helmet at home, and he's still alive.
Go figure.

[idb]

Maybe, but he's in his forties, never wears a helmet at home, and he's still alive.
Go figure.
That's not say his theory was right.
There are still a lot of idiots about have you noticed?

[myvice]

And if he gets a ticket I'm certain he will pay it befor heading home where they wont have a chance of prosecuting him...

[Kickaha]

It was reported in the Press today that the mother of the child that witnessed the murder has had councilling paid for by the mother

She has also been informed she is able to apply for free councilling through eerrrrrrrr some agency I can't remember