help!

[emaN]

Cruisin' along yesterday, one of my plugs popped out; normally i'd screw it straight back in...but,

Awkward thing is, the little bendy bit (down the bottom), has broken off and fallen back into the cylinder.

Tried using a telescopic magnet thingy, no luck. Tried taping some small pipe to the vaccum cleaner to suck it out, no luck.

Any ideas?

What are my chances of getting it sorted before Paeroa?!

[Sniper]

Just pop a new plug back in and run the engine. It should just pop right out the back.
(No don't do this, Im joking!!!)

Best bet is to carry on trying. You sure the little bendy bit is still in there or has is come off when the plug popped out? Im presuming by "popped out" it came loose. It didn't shoot away from the cylinder did it?

[emaN]

he he...yeh, it'll pop out the back along with a few extra bits too!

took the tank off there&then; plug & cap were still sitting down in 'the hole'...

it couldn't have come all the way out 'cos the tank would'a stopped it, i'm figuring...

[cowpoos]

a labotamy

[emaN]

cheers poos...

you got easy access to a whole lot of green sticky stuff i could shove down there to get it, don't ya?!

[R1madness]

Keep fishing man. However it may not still be in there. If the engine was reving at the time it may have been spat out the exhaust port. It may also be imbedded in the piston crown or head. If you cant get it out with a magnet you will have to strip the head off.

[Colapop]

It may be easiest to get someone give you a hand to whip the head off? Pain in the arse but better to check for any little bits that could cause probs later...

[Sniper]

What R1madness said mate

[cowpoos]

why don't ya stick a hose down the plug whole and turn it up real high and try flush it out?

[emaN]

ok...
was hoping it wouldn't involve taking the head off, but looks like i'll need to.

very strange 'cos it wasn't missing or runnning on 3 'till then; infact, Sat it flew on some of those roads out to Kawhia and back!

thanks for helpin' you three!

[emaN]

Poos, you may have me confused with Dover et al...

i ain't stickin' no hose anywhere near any of my holes!

[cowpoos]

you could pour hot water down there...and then fill it with jelly crystals...then get a monkey with a straw to suck all the jelly up.....then check his shit for the next week to look for it...to make sure it came out!

[emaN]

talk about No. 8 wire resolve/inventivness!

so, what flavour jelly does this hypothetical monkey prefer?

I'd rather use a filter...then again, i'm pretty sure filter socks were meant for other uses

Still, back to my conundrum (?), there's been loads of views... anyone else got tips?!

[skelstar]

Check to see if the bendy bit looks like it had snapped off or worn off (?!?!?). Reckon if it snapped off then it did it when it popped out (and hit something and snapped), so chances are its not in the cylinder. Make sense? Im confused. :weird:

[Colapop]

How good are you at training cicadas? THere's a few of them around right now. If your're any good then you could train it to do all sorts of things after it's crawled in there and got your bit out. Are they strong like ants? If so then they could opn the bank for you - fom the inside...... Hmmmm.... Bears thinking about..... :laugh:

[cowpoos]

How good are you at training cicadas? THere's a few of them around right now. If your're any good then you could train it to do all sorts of things after it's crawled in there and got your bit out. Are they strong like ants? If so then they could opn the bank for you - fom the inside...... Hmmmm.... Bears thinking about..... :laugh:

yeah and then we could like throw playdoe at rabbits while in the nud...


comon lad....he's after serious suggestion here....none or your cicada rubbish!! :spudgrr:

[Colapop]

I thought it was a good suggestion - but then I'm still a *cough* *proud* owner of the Shiatsu.....:violin:

[emaN]

he's after serious suggestion here....

on KB? :wait:

skel, checked for that too...there's a shinier strip, which i guess would indicate a fresh/recent/new break.

the plug & lead didn't have enough room to come all the way out of the 'rocker cover' hole, so the little sucker's gotta still be in there!

am hoping i don't end up with bent valves!

[nadroj]

If the thread is stripped then you would be unwise to helicoil it with the head on. Otherwise get a fine piece of wire & put a loop in the end coated with heavy grease to poke around in the chamber with the piston near TDC. It should pick up the particle better than a magnet as a magnet will attach itself to the closest metalic part it comes in contact with. Good luck

[emaN]

nice one nadroj...

thread is fine; my guess is the plug has been working it's way undone for a while

[HDTboy]

If it comes down to pulling the head, I could give you a hand on Saturday, it'd mean going to Paeroa in the car though

[Colapop]

Are sure that's wise - pulling his head? :tugger:

[marty]

i would suggest that if the plug has been working it's way undone, then long term the best solution will be to pull the head and check for damage.if the electrode is magnetic then if it won't come out with a magnet it has either gone, or is embedded in the piston, and if it is, it will cause hotspotting (as will the damage it may have caused on the way out) and could lead to something a little more terminal.


if you can get it up to my place i have access to a flexible boroscope for looking inside engines.

[scumdog]

Are you sure you can't pick it up with a Small-Magnet-On-A-Stick (tm) thing??
The only reasons THAT wouldn't work would be (a) the L shaped thingy is embeded in the piston or (b) it got blown out the zorst.

Failing the above you could pour shit-loads of sea-water into the engine and wait for the offending bit to rust away??:crazy:

[Blackbird]

Jon

Do any of the local automotive workshops or engineering services companies have a borescope that they could poke down the plug hole for you? We have one at work but it would be too big as it's for boiler tubes and the like unfortunately. You won't be able to see the head and valves, but you will be able to look at the piston crown and bore.

Just a thought.

Geoff

[emaN]

Thanks loads for your thoughts, one & all!

Murphy being murphy, today's been one of those busy days; and tonight i've got meetings, so i won't even get to play around with her... no, not the 'her' you're thinking of..

I'll try a couple of local bike shops/workshops/anyone to find a borescope; failing that, it's gonna be a head job i guess.

Valve clearances & all are well due for a check anyhow....just a shame it happend right before Paeroa!

HDTboy & I will pack our leathers in the car, and put 'em on once we get there :shifty:

Thanks again!

[Ixion]

It may well have either melted away or gone down the exhaust. Twice (over many years) I've found the outer electrode (technical description = "bendy bit") missing from a plug. Both times I was pulling the head off anyway. Both times the electrode wasn't in the cylinder. Gets pretty hot in there , little bits of metal can easily be burnt up. Can you shine a bright light down the inlet port and peer about with one of those tiny mirror-on-a-stick thingies (but don't get THAT stuck in the cylinder!).

[emaN]

Ixion, what you suggest sure sounds tempting, but i'd never be fully at ease...

Think i'm gonna pull it apart - it can be done leaving the engine in...

Doing a search thru' KB, i've contacted a company in Akl, Shuk Engineering, to see what they can quote for head gasket set...

Local bike shop is talking stupid amounts of money....as if! see ya later!

Outer electrode, i knew that. :bash:

[mr me]

The best and safest way mate would be to pop off the head to be sure.So it looks like you will taken car this weekend .:slap:

[DingDong]

Like Ixion, I've had these "bendy things" dissolve too... guess its up to you, head-job or hand-job... 6 days to go, get to work! :woohoo:

[emaN]

Update

no-one 'round Rotorua seems to have borescopes...!?!

got hold of a telescopic pen/magnet with a pivoting head and a mate's compressor.
blew air into the cylinder, then had a good loooong feel for it - nada.

i broke the outer electrode off a good plug, to check how near the magnet it needs to be and compared the new shiny break with the bust plug.
looks like the bust plug is an old break.

a few weeks ago, SlickD, Goblin & I went for a thrash; about 30mins into it, i noticed the bike running a little 'off' so i started thinking about getting it in for a tune-up. it's done this a couple times since too...

i'm now wondering if the plug broke back then and blew out the exhaust ports...?

i'm gonna get a new set of plugs today, and perhaps throw 'em in & start her up...

fingers crossed!

[750Y]

I’m picking it’s been slapped around & blown out but the plug soldiered on a while with what was left of the bit. Whatever damage has probably already been done.
You don’t need a new head gasket if you just wanna have a peek, just be gentle with the existing one. It’ll take You 4hrs to get in/out.
Your call. Hope it turns out ok & You make it to Paeroa.
either way i think this could be your year for a new bike.

[emaN]

dunno 750Y...

all our savings are going towards getting back to the UK and Isle of Man next year (we just booked our tickets the other day!!! :banana: )

so i gotta make this ol' RF last a bit longer!

4hrs huh? will see what happens tonight...

[scumdog]

dunno 750Y...

all our savings are going towards getting back to the UK and Isle of Man next year (we just booked our tickets the other day!!! :banana: )

so i gotta make this ol' RF last a bit longer!

4hrs huh? will see what happens tonight...

Try a gun-shop or gun-smith for a bore-scope, often used by these types.

Might save 4hrs and a headgasket.

[Idrumm]

Hi Mate, if you are going to pull the head and use the old gasket, spray some VHT hi temp copper gasket cement on both sides of the old gasket, works well.
Got a can in the shed, if you want it Dingdong,To Much and myself will be looking for some where to ride tomorrow so a ride to Rotorua would not be a problem.
Cheers Darrell

[emaN]

Thanks Darrell!

Hopefully won't need it - ordered some plugs yesterday & picked them up this morning...($17 from Repco, $22 from bike shop, hmmmmmm) so i'll chuck 'em in this evening to see what happens...

Rang a gunsmith; he reckons a borescope needs a light source at the other end, so wouldn't really work... but cheers for the tip Scum!

[HDTboy]

You gonna bring it down to the pub for the big startup?

[emaN]

Well...that might'nt be a bad idea Tboy!
i guess if it all goes pear-shaped i could get some commisatory (?) beers from sympathetic bystanders!

actually hoping to get her running,then join up with the Tga lads over at Navigator...that's where i'll be if you don't see me..

[Blackbird]

Rang a gunsmith; he reckons a borescope needs a light source at the other end, so wouldn't really work... but cheers for the tip Scum!

Jon
Our purpose-designed industrial borescope carries its own light source round the fibre optic rod so I'm not sure whether you're being misled a bit. Good to hear that you've got a plan though!

Cheers

Geoff

[scumdog]

Thanks Darrell!

Hopefully won't need it - ordered some plugs yesterday & picked them up this morning...($17 from Repco, $22 from bike shop, hmmmmmm) so i'll chuck 'em in this evening to see what happens...

Rang a gunsmith; he reckons a borescope needs a light source at the other end, so wouldn't really work... but cheers for the tip Scum!

A GOOD borescope should have it's own built-in light source and since the can fit down the barrell of a 308 they should fit your spark-plug hole piece of wees.

[emaN]

Well, well, well...

I won't be going anywhere in a hurry. (sorry 2much - i tried!)

When the plug was thrown out, it's gone and wrecked the thread on the head. (and yet, the actual plug's thread looks sweet!?!?)

So I'll have to pull her apart afterall - and while i'm at it might as well check clearances etc...

Darrell, where can i get some of that VHT copper gasket stuff you mentioned? Repco?

The saga continues.

Feel for KLOWN too, he's in the same situation - perhaps even worserer...!

[HDTboy]

If you know you're pulling the head anyway you'd be better to get a new gasket, or at leasts check the old one when you pull the head off. I'll talk to you later about it

[2much]

Sorry to hear that Jon, Goodluck with it and hope to see you out there again soon.

[Idrumm]

Yeah repcos got it mate.

[emaN]

This morning, Saturday, dawned beautiful blue skies - just the ticket for pulling one's RF apart!

HDTboy came 'round, tools 'n all, and told me what to do then kicked back for a :zzzz: .....NOT!

Pulled everything off, bit by bit, without even breaking ANY bolts, or stripping ANY thread! Couldn't believe it - normally something breaks...but it all went pretty smooth. Getting the head out was a wee bit tricky, but we managed to slip it out the front, with the engine in place!

I've learnt loads about rockers, cams, shims, lifters, valves...been wikkid!

Oh, the little 'outer electrode'? Nowhere to be seen, the little critter.
But he's made his mark; tiny little ones on the head, very near the exhaust valves!! So he must've banged around a bit before takin' off.

So on Monday morning, as we leave for our holiday, i'll drop the head off for the plug thread to be helicoiled...then slap it all back together in a couple weeks time.

HUGE shout out to Tboy; couldn't have done it without ya bro!!! Top dude for giving up his Sat morning to help me out...thanks loads!

At least it's all happened well before the trackday, innit?!

Bring it on! :banana:

[HDTboy]

I hope you didn't learn anything about rockers, there weren't any there.

No worries man, gave me something to do

[Warr]

You have been having lots of fun Jon. Had been offline for a day or 3 so missed all the drama.
I stayed over down your way on Thursday night. Was working at thenew Farmers. Would have given you a ring but only decided to stay at 10.30pm. And the 3 Backpackers I tried were full....

WRT the head gasket. The last time I .. The bike shop, had the head off my XJ, they used CopperCote - Paykel?? Engineering product. on the gasket. Coat both sides wait 4 it to dry and reassemble. All sweet no problems in 3 years.

[emaN]

Yep...i've been having all the fun Warr!

You could've stayed at ours while we were away; just got back last night..

Getting the head done this week; think i'll order a set of gaskets 'cos she's gotta last us and don't really wanna have to go thru' all this again!

[emaN]

Here's a shot of the head near the exhaust valves.

You can see where the electrode has bounced around a bit before being spat out.

I'm now getting conflicting info re Helicoils; i'm hearing that it mightn't be a good idea to use one due to the high compression down there...

That's all i needed to hear! :angry:

Do i still go ahead with it?

[Colapop]

Good news and bad I suppose - but progress at least.


On a side note how was the lakes and bush an' stuff?

[imdying]

Ask an engine rebuilder, they'll know what works and what doesn't. Or someone like cylinder head specialists. Can probably even do the job for ya :)

[HDTboy]

Just fucking do it.

[emaN]

On a side note how was the lakes and bush an' stuff?

oh mate! maaaaate! i'll have to update my 'other' thread!


Just fucking do it.

tell me what you really think

thanks dying...got some local geezers here that Tboy recommends

[HDTboy]

I really think you're being a big girl about the situation. Buy the Gaskets and bolts, get the Helicoil done, spend the money and get back to riding your bike.

You big staller

[scumdog]

Helicoil. Do it.

Do all the plug holes while you're at it.

Save potential future heart-break.

[emaN]

Helicoil done.

Took it to "A Head" dudes in Rotovegas; $36 for the privilege.

Just need the gasket now. Apparently it's gotta come ex Japan; got mates looking into things for me over in the UK - hopefully get aftermarket ones cheaper.

BTW, the head being very soft alloy type stuff, is it ok to leave little scratches in it while cleaning off the old gasket remains?

[imdying]

Try making yourself a scraper out of a bit of hardwood. Will clean the head without marking FTW :)

[Ixion]

Go along to a kitchen shoppy place, they will have scrapers made of hard plastic that work really well. Best not to have scratches, though it's not the end of the world.

[HDTboy]

Get a block of wood, and some 600 grit wet and dry sand paper.

Clean the worst of it off with a razor blade, then give it a light sand using the paper mounted on the wood

[emaN]

Great news!

After emaling Co's in UK, States, Oz (each of which replied! unreal) during the day yesterday, I popped into my mate's Hydraulink workshop for a yarn.

Gave him an update, at which point he goes "oh, my brother works at an engineering outfit up in Akl who do gaskets"!!! (he waited 4wks to tell me this!!!)

Couried the gasket up there last night.... it's gonna be here tomorrow morning!!!

Too much!

Also got hold of some emery (sp?) tape to give the head a rub-down. Been advised to use a block of wood to keep it all 'level'..

So yeah, things are progressing amazingly well!!!

All i need now is a free w/end to slap it all back together...

A huge thanks to all for the tips/help you've given me - been a massive help!

[HDTboy]

Emery will probably be too coarse, wait till Saturday and we'll put it together if you like. You got some new head bolts?

[emaN]

It's a length of emery tape which has been used a couple times already, so it's not as coarse as a 'new' bit...

re the 'head bolts'; just spoke to Dan at Colemans & priced some up

$70 odd bucks EACH!!!

And, there's 12 of the suckers!!
And, they gots to come ex-Japan, so there'd be a 3wk wait

So I'll be throwing the 'old' ones back in methinks!

(BTW, no, i'm not dissing Colemans!)

[imdying]

They're not torque to yield bolts are they? i.e. throw away

[emaN]

I've been asked this before, but wasn't sure...

How do i find that out, dying?

[imdying]

No RF900 manual in the Chch Public Library system, so can't look it up for you.

However..... it's a GSXR motor, from the 750/1100 dynasty.. must be plenty of guys who've got manuals for those on here? What say you guys? Do RF/GSXR W motors have TTY head bolts??

Heaps of cages have them now, no idea whatsoever about bikes though sorry mate. Just thought I'd mention it, hate for you to have to do it all over again.

[emaN]

Tboy & i got proper stuck into it on Sat, so much so that we forgot about one of the camchain guides...which is why we had so much slack on it! Eventually managed to slot it in w/o having to take the head completely off.

It's amazing how much aggro a jack can save; undo a mounting bolt, tilt/lower the engine a smidge, slip head on, jack it back up....sweet!

However, we ran outta time and had to put her away; we're not far off done tho'!

A little inconvenience is the cams not having the notch they 'should' have; they could be aftermarket items?

Costs so far:
helicoil - $36 (the main problem)
gasket - $40 odd
coolant - $20
oil - $50
oil filter - $25
plugs - $34 (x2)
coppercote anti seize - $20
labour - beers (big ups to Tboy!)
time off road - priceless

So what's that? $230 odd + beers + missing out on some great rides

Moral - check your plugs semi-regularly! Check the condition of the electrodes for wear; if they're getting thin, bin 'em!

[emaN]

I put her back together on Monday night, the 11th... Tboy came 'round to listen out for any strange noises. She started up ok, but was making sounds Tboy wasn't happy with..

So, a couple hours on Good Friday were spent (under the watchful supervision of SlickD & r4q2) sorting out the cams again.
This time when we started her up she sounded a whole lot better!

Me >> :eek:
Yeh, i was stoked!

Got her Reg'd & Wof'd on Sat, then went for a quick blat over to Tga to see whanau & make an appearance at the Jazz Festival.. She ran fine..

This all meant that Sun we could join the East Cape ride...so join we did!
Had an awesome day out; great to be out riding with mates again!

After some 'spritely' riding we pulled over to meet up with/wait for Keystone & Jo; no sooner had we pulled up,we had steam rising up all around the bike; coolant leaking out from the gasket. arse.

Planned on taking it easy back to Rotovegas; didn't quite pan out that way..but hey, she was still running & pulling along rather nicely.

To be on the safe side we torqued her up again; didn't take long to do, cos i'm getting good at pulling her apart, & Tboy's getting good at fiddling with her cams!

Fingers crossed, this is the last update!
Thanks all for yer help/ideas/comments!

Outta here; gone ridin'! :wavey:

[emaN]

Well, torquing the bolts tighter didn't stop that leak.

Pulled her apart for the 4th or 5th time, prepped & cleaned all surfaces again, and got original gasket looking pretty good too.

Threw on some Hylomar (recommended by a mate who used to work on leaky EA Falcons), and torqued her up...again!

Got as far as sitting the cams back in place, but waited for Tboy to finish off that part - and he's done an awesome job of it too!

We fiddled with shims on the intake side while we were at it; they were all a wee bit tight. Exhaust ones were ok.

Threw it all back together and rode over to the Mount to meet up with Tga KB'rs and she went sweet....and NO LEAKS!!!!
done done done!!!!

:wari: :wari:

Next project is to finish off the rear end conversion...as soon as i get my tax refund (if any!)

[DemonWolf]

Watch out on those tax 'refunds' IRD tends to be nasty when they make a mistake and decide you have to 'pay' it back 5-8months later! Wasting a good week of my time trying to find out what the hell happened and why I have to pay $200 odd back to IRD

[emaN]

mongrels.
if they wanted it back i'd go drop an RF tail unit on their lap.. the old fat whale-like one, that is.