PDA

View Full Version : Another Nasty One: Follow-up



MacD
2nd April 2004, 13:30
The police are looking for eye-witnesses to the car v motorcycle accident (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=2388) that happened outside Auckland University last week. Anybody here able to help?

From an email:

Police request for eye witnesses re fatal accident in Symonds Street on Thursday 25 March 2004.

Police are seeking witnesses who saw the crash on Symonds Street outside Thomas Building at about 11.00am on Thursday 25 March between a car and motor cycle.

Information is only sought from persons who may have seen the crash, AS IT HAPPENED, (not persons who saw the crash after impact.).

Would any such person / witness please contact brian.hensley@police.govt.nz, as soon as possible.

MacD
23rd April 2004, 09:29
Charges have been laid against the driver of the car.

NZ Herald Article (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3562211&thesection=news&thesubsection=general&thesecondsubsection=)


Chinese student Bo Cong, 21, yesterday appeared in the Auckland District Court on a charge of careless driving causing the death of motorcyclist James Stampa on Symonds St, Auckland City, on March 25.

He was also "driving while forbidden", I presume that means he'd already lost his licence, or didn't have one to start with... :brick:

SPman
23rd April 2004, 09:34
Charges have been laid against the driver of the car.

NZ Herald Article (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3562211&thesection=news&thesubsection=general&thesecondsubsection=)

He was also "driving while forbidden", I presume that means he'd already lost his licence, or didn't have one to start with... :brick:
Fuck, not another one!
Its a worry!

MikeL
23rd April 2004, 09:49
So is it time to admit that there is a problem, rather than just accusing people of racism?

KATWYN
23rd April 2004, 10:54
So is it time to admit that there is a problem, rather than just accusing people of racism?


Yes a definate problem, but rather than focusing on certain ethnic groups
and the subject of racisim -
If it seems like it is certain groups that are in and causing all the accidents and near misses,...maybe it is because we are now a minority group (ie) euro kiwi/maori etc and that asians etc make up the larger
population here in Auckland ....so naturally it will seem like asians cause
all the accidents cos there are so many more of them in Auckland. It seems the minority groups are better drivers cos they have less accidents-..... but there would be less of them being a minority...obviously

I would be interested in seeing who makes up the population here in
Auckland actually, has anyone got a percentage breakdown??

James Deuce
23rd April 2004, 10:57
Yes a definate problem, but rather than focusing on certain ethnic groups
and the subject of racisim -
If it seems like it is certain groups that are in and causing all the accidents and near misses,...maybe it is because we are now a minority group (ie) euro kiwi/maori etc and that asians etc make up the larger
population here in Auckland ....so naturally it will seem like asians cause
all the accidents cos there are so many more of them in Auckland. It seems the minority groups are better drivers cos they have less accidents-..... but there may also be less of them.

I would be interested in seeing who makes up the population here in
Auckland actually, has anyone got a percentage breakdown??

You'd be lucky to get an accurate race based breakdown of Auckland's population as many Asians are transient, and also anglicise their names. If they haven't filled in a census form yet (given that they have residency) they don't show up without involving many more agencies than Statistics NZ

KATWYN
23rd April 2004, 11:04
You'd be lucky to get an accurate race based breakdown of Auckland's population as many Asians are transient, and also anglicise their names. If they haven't filled in a census form yet (given that they have residency) they don't show up without involving many more agencies than Statistics NZ

Oh ok. It was just a thought. Have to admit though sometimes I feel
like i'm not in NZ in some places I go in Auckland. (and i'm not saying it
in a bad way, just general observation)

jrandom
23rd April 2004, 11:05
I would be interested in seeing who makes up the population here in Auckland actually, has anyone got a percentage breakdown??

Right... from the projections at www.statistics.govt.nz:

"All regions are projected to have greater ethnic diversity in the future. The European share in Auckland Region is projected to decline from 67 percent in 2001 to 54 percent by 2016. In contrast, the Asian share in Auckland is projected to increase from 14 percent to 25 percent over the same time."

So one can infer a current Auckland region population of about 65% white, 16% Asian. If accident fault rates in the region match those numbers, then there is no basis for claims about race-related driving. Unfortunately, we don't have access to such potentially non-PC data summaries so we can only work by sampling anecdotal evidence.

Draw your own conclusions, guys.

spudchucka
23rd April 2004, 13:35
He was also "driving while forbidden", I presume that means he'd already lost his licence, or didn't have one to start with... :brick:
This means he has previously been found driving without a drivers licence and he has been issued a Traffic Offence Notice forbidding him to drive until such time as he obtains a current appropriate drivers licence.

Consequences are the driver will be arrested and charged with driving while forbidden (max penalty $10,000) and the car is impounded for 28 days.

k14
23rd April 2004, 14:51
So what will happen this time?? He will "donate" $10,000 to auckland uni and then get disqualified from driving for 6 months!!! :ar15:

jrandom
23rd April 2004, 14:59
"Careless driving causing death"?

Oooh, I know. How about we call doing something dumb that kills someone 'manslaughter', and killing someone on purpose 'murder'.

Then we could have a lesser but prohibitive sentence for the one, and a sentence of lifelong imprisonment (to appease the wibbling tree-huggers who don't like the state taking lives in the name of justice) for the other.

No. Too easy.

MD
23rd April 2004, 15:08
He was also "driving while forbidden", I presume that means he'd already lost his licence, or didn't have one to start with... :brick:
That makes two News reports this week of an Asian driver killing someone while forbidden to drive. See today's DomPost about an overstayer Asian student who killed a woman in Mt Roskill in Easter, after having received 3 fines for driving without a licence.
Now we have another road hazard to keep an eye out for besides Road Revenue Officers, gravel, oil spills , Kids , dogs, cows. Now we have to check what type of person is driving that car close beside you.

750Y
23rd April 2004, 15:10
very sad. dangerous driving is everywhere, be safe, be seen, and don't just 'look' but 'search' the road & surroundings like your life depended on it. cos it does.

Lou Girardin
24th April 2004, 04:17
Apart from actual accident figures, think about the close calls you have. Who was driving?
Personally speaking, they seem to be mostly Asiatic. Greater than 60%
But the cream of the crop this week was the Stagecoach driver that jumped the red at the Khyber Pass on-ramp, 5 secs after it changed. Lucky that I was tired and slow off the green.
Lou

James Deuce
24th April 2004, 09:02
Right... from the projections at www.statistics.govt.nz:

"All regions are projected to have greater ethnic diversity in the future. The European share in Auckland Region is projected to decline from 67 percent in 2001 to 54 percent by 2016. In contrast, the Asian share in Auckland is projected to increase from 14 percent to 25 percent over the same time."

So one can infer a current Auckland region population of about 65% white, 16% Asian. If accident fault rates in the region match those numbers, then there is no basis for claims about race-related driving. Unfortunately, we don't have access to such potentially non-PC data summaries so we can only work by sampling anecdotal evidence.

Draw your own conclusions, guys.

That breakdown is a projection and doesn't include students, who seem to be causing more than their fair share of incidents.

El Dopa
24th April 2004, 09:52
That makes two News reports this week of an Asian driver killing someone while forbidden to drive. See today's DomPost about an overstayer Asian student who killed a woman in Mt Roskill in Easter, after having received 3 fines for driving without a licence.
Now we have another road hazard to keep an eye out for besides Road Revenue Officers, gravel, oil spills , Kids , dogs, cows. Now we have to check what type of person is driving that car close beside you.

You forgot 'rednecks who lean out of car windows and throw beerbottles at other road users and drive them off the road'. A story in the same edition of the Herald as the Mt Roskill overstayer you mention above. That particular dickhead was white, incidentally.

slob
24th April 2004, 10:15
If you look beyond the fact that he was asian, you may notice that there is the underlying problem that he had gotten away with driving without a license until the incident.

I reckon the Police, LTSA or AA (whoever is responsible) need to improve on 2 areas instead of focussing on gory ad campaigns:
1. Raising the standard of roadskill required to obtain a license (even a learners)
2. Perform more license checks (with bigger penalties) so assholes like the aforementioned driver would think twice before driving a car without a license

MacD
24th April 2004, 10:57
If you look beyond the fact that he was asian, you may notice that there is the underlying problem that he had gotten away with driving without a license until the incident.


Yep, this seems to be the fundamental issue, driving without a licence. It's just that in Auckland at least there seems to be a particular problem with people on short-term student visas driving without licences? Maybe this is a distortion produced by media reporting, but I thought the LTSA had admitted it was a real problem?

spudchucka
24th April 2004, 21:38
I reckon the Police, LTSA or AA (whoever is responsible) need to improve on 2 areas instead of focussing on gory ad campaigns:
1. Raising the standard of roadskill required to obtain a license (even a learners)
Absolutley agree.



2. Perform more license checks (with bigger penalties) so assholes like the aforementioned driver would think twice before driving a car without a license
The only way to do this would be having more cops on the road doing what so many people bitch about - stopping vehicles and talking to drivers. Just the mention of this will have Lou's letter writing pen out.

How about being required to produce a current drivers licence before being able to purchase a motorvehcile??

Motu
24th April 2004, 22:00
Wasn't the guy who killed the woman in Mt Roskill caught 3 times driving without a license? He thought he had a right to drive and could see no wrong in what he did.The only cure for this guy is complete head removal,sending him home is the next best thing.

Then when he kills someone back there they can say he learnt to drive in New Zealand.

Milky
24th April 2004, 23:00
That makes two News reports this week of an Asian driver killing someone while forbidden to drive. See today's DomPost about an overstayer Asian student who killed a woman in Mt Roskill in Easter, after having received 3 fines for driving without a licence.

That woman who was killed was the mother of one of my best mates... the thing that annoys me about the situation is that the prevailing climate seems to suggest that if you make some sort of gesture towards the family it will reduce your sentence - you can buy freedom in a sense. I can accept that it is a viable outlet for those actually feeling remorse, but it has been seen in recent cases to be used in a totally different light.
Robêrt - son of person killed - said to me that he didnt feel much anger towards the offender, but more sorrow that he put himself in that position and continued to do so...
A bit :Offtopic: but anyone had to ID a close family member in the morgue? Robêrt had to do that for his own mum in the hours after the accident and tells me that it was the hardest thing he had to do in his life. For me anyway it is something that I cant imagine, and an experience that I'd rather keep untouched for many years to come :(

Skyryder
24th April 2004, 23:23
Yep, this seems to be the fundamental issue, driving without a licence. It's just that in Auckland at least there seems to be a particular problem with people on short-term student visas driving without licences? Maybe this is a distortion produced by media reporting, but I thought the LTSA had admitted it was a real problem?


I can remember just a few months ago one of the top honcho's of the LTSA here in Christchurch being reported in the Press saying that Asian drivers are no worse than any other kind of driver. This clown was using statistics to back up his claim. What the stats do not show are the near misses, the not so near misses and the utter incompetence of asian drivers in general. Yes and there are the courteious drivers like the ones that let you have the right of way when in fact you do not. If I had my way they would all be walking.

Skyryder

spudchucka
25th April 2004, 06:47
A bit :Offtopic: but anyone had to ID a close family member in the morgue? Robêrt had to do that for his own mum in the hours after the accident and tells me that it was the hardest thing he had to do in his life. For me anyway it is something that I cant imagine, and an experience that I'd rather keep untouched for many years to come :(
I've not had to do it myself but I have taken dozens of berieved family members to do that very thing. It is incredibly distressing for them, especially if their loved one has been smashed up horribly in a car wreck.

Firefight
25th April 2004, 11:02
I've not had to do it myself but I have taken dozens of berieved family members to do that very thing. It is incredibly distressing for them, especially if their loved one has been smashed up horribly in a car wreck.



Definitely not one of the fun jobs of a general duty cop,Slightly :Offtopic: I myself have assited the Poilce "DVI team" on a number of occasions, and have always been impressed with the level of dedication, professionalism and dignity showen by these guys, often under trying and sometimes dangerous conditions, you could not pay me enough money to do that job.


Firefight

MikeL
25th April 2004, 11:27
FWIW my gut feeling, from working in the CBD and teaching mainly Chinese students, is that the majority of bad incidents involving "Asian" drivers relate to young Chinese males on a student visa, with a Chinese licence which they have held for a very short time and which was obtained under quite different circumstances from the N.Z. licensing system, driving very powerful cars; these serious accidents are likely to be caused by speeding and inexperience leading to loss of control. On the other hand the near-misses and less serious misdemeanours such as failure to look right at a roundabout are just as likely to involve middle-aged Asian drivers, most likely female, who presumably hold N.Z. residency and have a N.Z. licence; they drive Camrys and BMWs and SUVs and rarely exceed the speed limit.

Milky: I share your outrage at the thought that the offender in this case may be able to buy a more lenient sentence through an insincere donation to the family or charity. If I found myself in that situation I think I would tear up the cheque and throw it in his face.

Marmoot
25th April 2004, 19:56
Then again, there are also countless kiwis, or pacific Islander, or else for that matter, that drives without license and think they have the divine right to drive because this is their country. Or thinking they have divine right to enter other properties, or rights for anything for that matter. Why has this not been spoken out? Maybe just because they look like yous?

I say, the phrase "I'm not racist, but..." clearly puts you into the box, right?

And, whatever happened with the rich remueran tractor driver who ran over that teenage girl and gotaway with only a few hundred bucks of fine? He's not the spotlight here maybe because he's one of yous and he has money to buy a lawyer? Or what about the lady that killed an army-boy in Hamilton just because she needed to find her Coke(tm) bottle?

Mate, accidents happened all the time. It's just easier to spot the yellow out of the white when someone's finger has to be pointed eh?

I've always thought riders are wiser than normal cagers. Clearly I was wrong.

:no:

MikeL
25th April 2004, 22:34
Once again rational debate becomes impossible as an attempt to analyse dispassionately a perceived problem is rubbished because it uses ethnic labels and must therefore be racist.
O.K. I give up. Let's just forget about it. There's no problem about Asian drivers. There's no evidence, statistical or anecdotal, or anything else, to identify any particular group as being in any way different from the rest. Tangata whenua, immigrants, White Anglo-Saxons, Pacific Islanders, teenagers, boy-racers, mid-life crisis Ulyssians, blue-rinse grandmothers, cow-cockies from Rangiora: we're all the same. Anything to the contrary is pure prejudice.
The triumph of political correctness is complete.

Milky
25th April 2004, 22:44
Then again, there are also countless kiwis, or pacific Islander, or else for that matter, that drives without license and think they have the divine right to drive because this is their country. Or thinking they have divine right to enter other properties, or rights for anything for that matter. Why has this not been spoken out? Maybe just because they look like yous?

I say, the phrase "I'm not racist, but..." clearly puts you into the box, right?

And, whatever happened with the rich remueran tractor driver who ran over that teenage girl and gotaway with only a few hundred bucks of fine? He's not the spotlight here maybe because he's one of yous and he has money to buy a lawyer? Or what about the lady that killed an army-boy in Hamilton just because she needed to find her Coke(tm) bottle?

Mate, accidents happened all the time. It's just easier to spot the yellow out of the white when someone's finger has to be pointed eh?

I've always thought riders are wiser than normal cagers. Clearly I was wrong.

:no:

I agree with you that it is easy to draw distinctions on race based lines, and human nature seems to say 'it isn't my fault, so who was to blame???' This is a sad fact of life, and it will continue until we all become 'model' citizens or the differences in culture and customs of peoples are homologated into a friendly, offend no-one, one size fits all package... :( Just as your distinction between riders and cagers is made, people distinguish based on the divisions that they identify as new or important. I would imagine that the average New Zealander would lump pacific islanders in with maori in one convenient group for some situations. The point that has to be made is that the increase in the past years of asian peoples, especially in Auckland, has meant that they stick out as a group for fingerpointing.
The media also has a lot to answer for in these cases, by playing up the issues that they think we are likely to be most incensed by - hell it sells their papers/TV advertising - and i would like to think that most people share your view that problems are not black and white/colour for colour and so on

I want to make clear that i have nothing against asians/PI or any other race division here... just trying to explain why the general public may see things the way they do :innocent:

scumdog
26th April 2004, 00:08
Then again, there are also countless kiwis, or pacific Islander, or else for that matter, that drives without license and think they have the divine right to drive because this is their country. Or thinking they have divine right to enter other properties, or rights for anything for that matter. Why has this not been spoken out? Maybe just because they look like yous?

I say, the phrase "I'm not racist, but..." clearly puts you into the box, right?

And, whatever happened with the rich remueran tractor driver who ran over that teenage girl and gotaway with only a few hundred bucks of fine? He's not the spotlight here maybe because he's one of yous and he has money to buy a lawyer? Or what about the lady that killed an army-boy in Hamilton just because she needed to find her Coke(tm) bottle?

Mate, accidents happened all the time. It's just easier to spot the yellow out of the white when someone's finger has to be pointed eh?

I've always thought riders are wiser than normal cagers. Clearly I was wrong.

:no:
Marmoot, glad to see someone brought up the topic of non Asians getting of lightly after a fatal.
I see too many young ones on their Restricted/Learners licence breaching them all the time, out late at night/carrying passengers etc etc, they seem to think that once they get it the rest doesn't matter and often Learners and Restricteds use the excuse "oh, I'm the sober driver" as if that makes it o.k. - how do the rest of you feel about a 15 year old chicky-babe driving a Valiant load of totally drunk slack-jawed mouth-breathers around town at 4 a.m.?
Probably don't get that in Jaffa-land but down hear an old Falcon etc with 8 to 11 young ones in it is the norm on a Saturday night.

Lou Girardin
26th April 2004, 06:48
It doesn't matter if they're yellow, pink, black or piebald. The fact is, if we allow people to drive in a situation that is totally alien to them, then compound the issue with little or no skill testing and zero enforcement, you will have the problems we see now. Most of the unlicenced PI's, Maoris and Whites at least grew up here and have some idea of what our traffic is like.
Lou

XRNR
26th April 2004, 10:03
how do the rest of you feel about a 15 year old chicky-babe driving a Valiant load of totally drunk slack-jawed mouth-breathers around town at 4 a.m.?
Probably don't get that in Jaffa-land but down hear an old Falcon etc with 8 to 11 young ones in it is the norm on a Saturday night.
I don't have a problem with it (15yrs old & a full license is fine by me). It was the norm having a 15-16yr old driving around a clapped out (Falcon Cortina Anglia Escort Chev HQ... with Mags!) after parties when I grew up in jaffa land (don't see those kind of cars now, when I do, they turn my head). Maybe that 15yr old driver now is sober. Which would be the biggest improvement.

XRNR
26th April 2004, 10:10
...I've always thought riders are wiser than normal cagers. Clearly I was wrong.
Elite...
People are still people, no matter what they do (I don't agree that bikers are elite just because they ride bikes).
Even Policeman, (some of whom) think they are above the flock (of sheep) they serve are still members of it.

Motu
26th April 2004, 10:21
One of my brother in laws has amassed so many fines he now has an ''arrangment'' with the courts - he pays them $20 a week (our money cos he's on the dole) and does just what he bloody well likes...no license,no WoF or rego,parks anywhere,it all just goes on the bill.

BUT ...now in his mid 40s he has never killed anyone or even had a major prang,beats his cars up,but never a biggy.As Lou says,he was born into this system and knows how it works.Sure he pisses me off with his attitude - but I don't fear for my kids because he's out there.

Marmoot
26th April 2004, 16:08
fuck.....I give up.
It's starting to feel like talking to a wall.
Of course....what do I know. It's not even my home, is it?
What's next? Double demerit points for yellow drivers?

Coldkiwi
26th April 2004, 17:58
anyone recklessly using a motor vehicle that causes grevious injury or death should be given hell. Shouldn't matter who where when or what (I suspect that our justice system would agree if you read in to it).... but thats doesn't seem to be reflected in whats going on (people getting off lightly, not being arrested when charged twice previously for the same offence). for instance, the guy who killed the biker on symonds st was charged that MORNING with not having a licence.. what the heck was going on that he could get behind the wheel again?

do the cops have the power to arrest people driving without licences? if not, they should... if so, WHY THE HECK DIDN'T THEY!?

KATWYN
26th April 2004, 18:35
fuck.....I give up.
It's starting to feel like talking to a wall.
Of course....what do I know. It's not even my home, is it?
What's next? Double demerit points for yellow drivers?


Marmoot, why are you thinking like the "alien resident" and that
you are targeted?

Is it really like that for you? cos thats a bit rough if thats how
you feel

Marmoot
26th April 2004, 19:07
because, katwyn, I'm just sick and tired of paying my taxes and working my ass off but when something bad happened all the fingers will point down to me even when it was not me that was the subject.
Try this: whenever some Asian bastard crash into a little girl, my boss would laugh and say "you asians can't drive". The hell I can, can't I? Well, it does not matter by the looks of it.
And when some stupid overstayer crash at the intersection, people say "the hell is this country allowing overstayer? Asians go home!". Well, aren't there other overstayers in this country except Asians?
And when those stupid students come here with millions of dollars of their parents money, some people say "close up the immigration". We the ones that came here to study and work were treated as though criminals and also told to go home.
And when there is a bad crash involving Asians, why does it always come up on first page and provoke debate all over the news? Why not the other crashes? Look at those 4 teenages who died in a crash, they are all forgotten because they're not Asians. Or that Remuera businessman (still my favourite). Or that lady who plowed an armyman. Or that other hundreds of other kiwis everyday, unlicensed, talking to cell phones, and even reading map and doing makeups!
Tell me, who is more kiwi? That chinese that open a takeaway and pay his taxes, or that mate who is healthy but on the dole?

Now, you sit in my chair and imagine if it were you. Wouldn't you be p1$$ed being labeled with someone else's measurement?

I thought NZ is a democratic country and we are not supposed to judge people until proven guilty? Or, what about the equality? Where is the one-law-for-all? Or is it ok to treat people differently based on how they look?
I did not choose to be born Asian, nor did I wish to be born white. But should I be judged on that? Should I be judged on what I do not have control of? Who do I blame then? My parents?

Or what about African? Do they really have a tendency to be involved in scam more than you white people? Or, please admit, how many of yous feel scared every time you see a group of Arabs?

I'm sure Im not the only one. Asians are just but 1 label amongst many that people tend to see as incompetent.

But I tell you what, mate, even dogs don't attack other dogs just because it has different colour. Or are we humans lower than dogs?

I'm just tired of that. I'm just frustrated looking at this society becoming as such when it wasn't like that a few years back. Now when can I be treated as equal? Not even when I'm paying your dole, I suppose?

KATWYN
26th April 2004, 19:24
I will never ever be able to say "yes I know how you feel" because I have never experienced it personally and I would be superficial to say I did, I can only try and feel and imagine how it would be. But your words are powerful and I hope anyone reading your thread will really think,ponder and feel the content of it- and now think twice (if they are that way inclined) about how damaging a thoughtless comment can be to someones spirit.

I hope one day you will feel that NZ, IS YOUR home.

wkid_one
26th April 2004, 19:48
Where is the one-law-for-all? This would be a luxury.

This is a bug bear of mine also.

The difficulty I think you face here is the average european second gen+ Kiwi feels a foreigner in their own country - so it is more an outlet.

You have European Kiwi's seeing fights over fishing rights, foreshore, land dispute, education, tax dollars, etc between Europeans and Maori - they don't like the idea of even more 'non-europeans' coming here to take ever more of their supposed slice of the pie. The average Kiwi is not particularly well educated - so tends to believe what they see in the media as an accurate representation.

Your statement about the Asian guy who hit the girl - and how it hit the front page is a bit moot tho - in NZ, ANY accident involving death with circumstances like that would have been front page news - regardless of the race of the offender.

For many Kiwi's it also comes down to the integration of the foreigners in to NZ. You see many people who come to NZ who don't actually try to integrate themselves in to NZ. They know little or no english, they don't socialise outside of their own race, they don't don't adopt/adapt or compromise any of their own behaviours - yet expected to be treated as normal - this is an oxymoron. Often - they make no adaptations to living in a different country - then wonder why they are treated differently?

You statement makes it clear you believe the fault lies entirely in the Kiwi's lap?? I don't agree. These people are making a conscious decision to come to a country different from their own - culturally, language, religion etc.....there needs to be some effort put in on their part also.

Unfortunately - being a Kiwi - doesn't mean to me you live here and pay taxes as per your post. It means actually adopting the cultural nuances that make a Kiwi (not at the expense of their own religious beliefs of course).

I would expect - if I went to a foreign country, hung out with only Kiwi's, maintained my Kiwi way of life etc - I would be forever considered a foreigner in that country. You can't be expected to be given everything - if you don't give some yourself in return

Unfortunately Marmoot - stereotypes make the world go round - and they aren't going away. Think about how many generalisations you would make in a day - these are just stereotypes based on the commonest behaviour experienced from the group/item/situation. The fault doesn't lie exclusively in one parties responsibility. Yes Kiwi's need to be more tolerant of the multi-cultural society that NZ is becoming - however, foreigners also need to be cognisant of the fact - this is a different country than their own and in order to be accepted there needs to be compromise.

I think your statement about Students studying in NZ is a bit one eyed also. This neglects other underlying issues - like NZ Schools accepting an OS student over a Kiwi Student because it means more money to the school - thereby depriving a Kiwi Student of a place at that school. Also - this OS student has a high likelihood of leaving the country at the end of said education and taking with them the schools learnt - further depriving NZ of a growing knowledge base. These are arguments that would be prevelant REGARDLESS of the race of the students coming to NZ. It just so happens they are Asian.

This exact argument occurs in Germany - where the Turks come over and work for less than the Germans - depriving many of them of the lower blue collar jobs. Again - the race is secondary to the action and effect.

I agree that NZ has a race issue - but it will take actions on both sides of the fence to fix it. To sit and whinge about stereotypes is a ridiculous waste of time and bandwidth.......Quite frankly the Government needs to grow some balls and deal with the country's largest race issue first and foremost and get rid of the bloody Waitangi Tribunal. Asian stereotypes are a distant second to the other race issues the country faces.

Motu
26th April 2004, 20:03
Sounds like you take things a bit personaly mate - that's part of being a Kiwi...your mates tell you what a fucking idiot you are,they rub it in real deep - you come up shining,or you get a chip on your shoulder.

Ok,so I am one of the privilaged white people in this country - like you I didn't ask for that,but I'm sure my ancestors didn't ask to be put in the situation that made them want to go to the other side of the world either.I would need to go and live in another country foreign to me to experiance being looked down on....but I like it here.I think Mikes posts have expressed what I think of this situation perfectly,like him I have no predudice,but I have two eyes,I can see for myself what is going on.

The basic fact is there are people driving on our roads who shouldn't be - who they are or what country they are from is irrelivent,we need to stop them hurting and killing others.

merv
26th April 2004, 20:14
Sounds like you take things a bit personaly mate - that's part of being a Kiwi...your mates tell you what a fucking idiot you are,they rub it in real deep - you come up shining,or you get a chip on your shoulder.

Ok,so I am one of the privilaged white people in this country - like you I didn't ask for that,but I'm sure my ancestors didn't ask to be put in the situation that made them want to go to the other side of the world either.I would need to go and live in another country foreign to me to experiance being looked down on....but I like it here.I think Mikes posts have expressed what I think of this situation perfectly,like him I have no predudice,but I have two eyes,I can see for myself what is going on.

The basic fact is there are people driving on our roads who shouldn't be - who they are or what country they are from is irrelivent,we need to stop them hurting and killing others.

Yep and when a TV studio audience could only score 40% on that recent test we are in trouble. No worries for the asian lady though she scored well.

Down here in the Welly area I see dickheads on the road often, few are asians. Perhaps you come down here Marmoot we are not so prejudiced.

MikeL
26th April 2004, 21:13
fuck.....I give up.
It's starting to feel like talking to a wall.
Of course....what do I know. It's not even my home, is it?
What's next? Double demerit points for yellow drivers?

Marmoot
When I read this post of yours this afternoon I started writing a reply that expressed a similar frustration and also involved a comparison with a brick wall. I decided not to send it, because I thought it would just make things worse. I've just read your long post this evening and I now understand a lot more clearly where you are coming from. Your pain is very palpable. All I can do is repeat what wkid-one and Motu have said about stereotypes and taking things personally. I know it's hard when you are on the receiving end of cruel and thoughtless remarks but there are really only two ways to deal with them:
First, a calm, dignified and reasonable explanation of why you find the comments offensive. Be prepared to debate the facts, but make sure you and they stick to the facts. Challenge their unfounded assertions, ask for evidence. If they have had personal experiences that have contributed to their prejudice, don't rubbish them but gently point out that it's not necessarily a sound basis statistically for making a generalisation. On the other hand you need to be open to their arguments and not feel obliged to defend the honour and reputation of your whole ethnic group by denying the existence of particular problems. Be sensitive to the real concerns many Kiwis have about losing control of their own country and culture.
Secondly, show by your own example that the stereotype is misleading. Prove that you are an individual. Surprise them.
It may be a slow process, and some people will cling stubbornly to their prejudices despite all your efforts, but all you can do is live your life the best way you can, with dignity and self-respect and integrity, and try to get a bit of it rubbing off on the people you encounter. You might be surprised at how effective that is.

scumdog
26th April 2004, 23:43
fuck.....I give up.
It's starting to feel like talking to a wall.
Of course....what do I know. It's not even my home, is it?
What's next? Double demerit points for yellow drivers?

Marmoot, down here the Asian drivers are in three groups, one is the Asians that have grown up in N.Z., they never feature in driving incidents, the second is that cliched group the O.S. student and I KNOW how haphazard the driving skills of some are! the last lot are featured in a lot of driving complaints and inexplicable crashes and the are the tourists who arrive in N.Z. and are turned loose with a camper van or more commonly, a rental car, I feek they are victims of sort as they get the keys handed to them and have no idea of N.Z. road rules or how to deal with the various roads/conditions etc - some of them have only driven on city streets and motorways with multi lanes and median barriers.
Some European drivers fit the last group too but hey, visually they don't stand out the same and consequently you don't hear the comment "bloody European drivers" :crazy:

Marmoot
27th April 2004, 00:02
Perhaps you come down here Marmoot we are not so prejudiced.
Fortunately, merv, I found that to be quite true.
Well, maybe it was just an Auckland black clouds I see hanging above me heads, coz even Hamilton I find it quite friendly.

Ok, I admit I might have been a bit one-eyed.
Maybe I'm just being a bit too cynical from all the treatments I get quite often. I had teenagers in car tried to hit me, yelled at to go back to my country (by a parking warden, imagine that??), thrown stuff at in workplace by guests, and being threatened as a 'yellow piece of s**t'.
I'm just tired of being treated with suspicion and contempt for what I am not. I too hate those "asians" that you are familiar about, especially since by them I am measured as.

I mean, I speak your language, I understand the law, I learn your cultures and I respect your way of living (with the only sin I have would probably be going fast in the twisties). If that still doesn't make me belong in NZ, then what?

In the end, I agree some (by proportion, and a lot by number) Asians can be quite a pain. But, please also acknowledge that they are not all. By branding them all together, you will not make the bad comes better, but you might discourage the good to become indifferent. And I'm talking for the other ethnics too, whether that be Arabs or Africans or Indians.
C'mon guys...1 less redneck means a yet better world to live in.

And, MikeL, you have a good point there. I'll try and start my pilgrimage then.

Cheers

Marmoot
27th April 2004, 00:04
Some European drivers fit the last group too but hey, visually they don't stand out the same and consequently you don't hear the comment "bloody European drivers" :crazy:

...and yeah, this is exactly where I started

spudchucka
27th April 2004, 00:07
anyone recklessly using a motor vehicle that causes grevious injury or death should be given hell. Shouldn't matter who where when or what (I suspect that our justice system would agree if you read in to it).... but thats doesn't seem to be reflected in whats going on (people getting off lightly, not being arrested when charged twice previously for the same offence). for instance, the guy who killed the biker on symonds st was charged that MORNING with not having a licence.. what the heck was going on that he could get behind the wheel again?

do the cops have the power to arrest people driving without licences? if not, they should... if so, WHY THE HECK DIDN'T THEY!?
Driving without a licence will cost you $400 worth of instant fine. You will also be "forbidden to drive" until you obtain a current licence. If you get caught driving while forbidden you will get arrested and the car impounded. Driving while forbidden carries a maximum $10,00 fine but in most cases the offender is convicted and discharged (no penalty). If a person gets locked up for driving while forbidden they will certainly get bail (as there is no term of imprisonment) and there is nothing to stop them from going out and getting behind the wheel of another vehicle.

Lou Girardin
27th April 2004, 06:51
Marmoot, redneck is also a generic term of abuse for people that have feel they have genuine concerns. Perhaps you notice abuse more in Auckland because most Asians have moved here, so that the Asian proportion of the population has gone from insignificant to 20% in 10 years or so. That's a huge change in a short time and is why people react the way they do. No Asian country, to my knowledge, would have allowed the same unfettered access.