Letter to Trade Me

[placidfemme]

Well.. In a recent post I mentioned an employee at my work who was looking at buying a second hand helmet on Trade. And most of us are aware of the dangers of buying second hand helmets... so I wrote Trade Me an e-mail in regards to the amount of second hand helmets (Sorry if that pisses anyone off who likes buying cheap second hand helmets).

~~

To Whom it May concern

I doubt I have sent this to the correct person but could not find a direct e-mail for complaints other than the ones listed on the Contact Us section. Please can you forward this complaint on to the appropriate person.

I am writting with concern of certain products you allow to be sold on Trade Me. I am an avid motorcyclist and a member of a biking community 4000 riders strong. I have noticed that on Trade Me under the motorcycling section that you allow Trade Me Members to sell second hand helmets.

Unless you are a motorcyclist yourself you may be unaware of the dangers of using a second hand helmet. If a helmet is dropped from as little as waist high it can cause enough damage to the helmet (which might not even show on the outter shell) to cause the helmet to be of no use in the event of an accident.

Just like Trade Me has restricted the selling of baby products that could promote cot death and without the appropriate safety standards. I ask that you seriously re-consider allowing the sale of second hand, damaged helmets and helmets that do no meet NZ safety standards.

New and young bikers, without experience or knowledge may be lead to believe that using second helmets is perfectly fine and safe. This is false advertising and cleary dangerous. Please can you advise what Trade Me's veiws are on this subject and if you are going to take any action what will it be?

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions on: "e-mail addy"

I look forward to hearing back from you in regards to this.

Thanks in advance

Tammy

~~

Do you think they will do anything about this?

Edit: If you feel this is appropriate and wish to see a change, perhaps you could write to them too... maybe if they recieve enough complaints about this they will take action.

[James Deuce]

If it is OK with you I will follow your lead.

[placidfemme]

Follow my lead? Sure thats fine with me :)

[Colapop]

Just show me where the plackards are I'm protesting too!

[marty]

have you also written to cash converters, cash inn, loot, trade exchange, the local pawn shop, local op shops?

[placidfemme]

Just show me where the plackards are I'm protesting too!

Just send them an e-mail like I did... if they get enough complaints they should stop allowing the sale of second hand helmets... if the "Brand New" item tick box is not ticked they shouldn't allow them to be posted...

If I had known about Trade Me when I first started riding... I would have more than likey brought a second hand helmet because they are cheap... but I really don't see the point in buying a "cheap" second hand helmet off Trade Me when brand new helmets start from $89 upwards... why risk your life... but like I said in the letter... most newbies don't know they are dangerous... and that is the problem...

They could even continue to sell them if they have a disclaimer or warning under each listing for helmets stating that second hand helmets are dangerous and could be of no use in the event of an accident. At least let people know of the dangers... it's amazing what some people do for a profit these days...

[placidfemme]

have you also written to cash converters, cash inn, loot, trade exchange, the local pawn shop, local op shops?

Give me thier contact details and I will...

[The Stranger]

Maybe not, but it's better to start somewhere than just ignore it.

[ManDownUnder]

Nice one Tammy - I'll take this up with a couple of people I know too.

Would be nice to see lids inspected as part of a WOF in some ways (although I can see the complications - not actually being part of the vehicle certified_.

Maybe each lead needs an inpsection - just as air tanks for divers do or similar?

[placidfemme]

Nice one Tammy - I'll take this up with a couple of people I know too.

Would be nice to see lids inspected as part of a WOF in some ways (although I can see the complications - not actually being part of the vehicle certified_.

Maybe each lead needs an inpsection - just as air tanks for divers do or similar?

I think a lot of bikers would appose that... an extra fee they have to pay...

For second hand helmets on sale at various outlets... sure, but I believe that each rider which a little knowledge will know within themselves if they think their helmet has been damaged... but oppertunists on Trade Me don't give a hoot as to whose life they are endangering for as little as $20. My ex brought 2 helmets off Trade Me when she first brought a scooter... I went with her to pick them up after I tried to explain they were not safe... she got them, and one of them didn't even have padding on the inside... and the saddest part is she put them back on Trade Me and sold them to someone else... :angry2:

[Drunken Monkey]

This move could prevent people from obtaining low price, unsuitable-for-road-use, helmets who have a genuine, zero-risk requirement for one, e.g. stage prop, etc...

[Sniper]

Thats actually a good move Tammy. Good luck.

[Drunken Monkey]

Maybe each lead needs an inpsection - just as air tanks for divers do or similar?

I beleive the only way to properly test if a helmet is still any good destroys the helmet in the process. You can only make a visual inspection of the external and internal surface, which may or may not reveal any clues as to the suitability of the internal foam.

[terbang]

Yup I agree will send an E-mail off straight away..

[Big Dave]

Can't find anything important to get worked up about?

[Badcat]

Can't find anything important to get worked up about?

so bored you have to clumsily pour scorn on someone else's efforts to make motorcycling safer dave?

[knuckles]

fuuly tested every 6 months,must be dayglo orange,were talking safety here right?

[mattt]

so bored you have to clumsily pour scorn on someone else's efforts to make motorcycling safer dave?

Motorcycling & Safer? I'm sorry but these 2 words don't go together in the same sentence.

I think the best way to improve motorcycle safety is to have 2 such machines bolted together side by side for increased stability and cover the whole "machine" with reinforced metal and add safety belts and airbags.... I shall name my new invention the "cage" :blah:

[Finn]

Ah come on. Trademe shouldn't be responsible for what people sell, besides it would be too difficult to monitor. What's next, no porn either? Shit, bikes are dangerous too, let's ban them.

Can't do this, ban that, control this, stop that, censor this, outlaw that, tax this, fuck that. You could get a job in the Labour party.

[Big Dave]

so bored you have to clumsily pour scorn on someone else's efforts to make motorcycling safer dave?

'Clumsily'? - you should invest in a Thesaurus.

adds:
I pointed out in very few words that IMHO there are more important 'political' issues that the young lady could address.
Also - I've also sold helmets that were in good order before - just surplus to my requirement and object to anyone hindering any future transactions.

Clumsy - i can juggle 4 items and catch and pass exceptionally well for a big man.

[Ixion]

Is there any reason to suppose that any of the helmets advertised are in fact defective - and if so, what percentage. And what percentage of those would show no sign of such damage? I would suggest we are talking a very small percentage of a very small percentage.

I see no reason to ban a legitimate trade because of a hypothetical situation affecting a very small number of instances. To be logical you should also ban the sale of all gear - jackets boots etc can also be damaged in a bin and be less effective in a subsequent crash. And ban the sale of bikes . How can you be sure that the bike being sold does not have invisible damage caused by some unknown previous incident?

I agree with Mr Finn. Far too many calls these days to ban everything under the sun.

[Big Dave]

After considering this discussion - I've started a new thread in general, titled bronz. please comment.

[chris]

New and young bikers, without experience or knowledge may be lead to believe that using second helmets is perfectly fine and safe. This is false advertising and cleary dangerous.

I'm with Dave on this. I could sell you a second hand helmet that I know has never suffered a drop or damage of any sort.

False advertising is another issue. Do any of the ads state that you will not suffer any head injuries whilst wearing the helmet in question?

Whilst it is still possible for Dave to sell me a second hand helmet, you cannot force Trade Me to refuse ads for the same.

[Badcat]

'Clumsily'? - you should invest in a Thesaurus.

adds:
I pointed out in very few words that IMHO there are more important 'political' issues that the young lady could address.
Also - I've also sold helmets that were in good order before - just surplus to my requirement and object to anyone hindering any future transactions.

Clumsy - i can juggle 4 items and catch and pass exceptionally well for a big man.

ooh - have a struck a nerve, big guy?
her post was well meant and you were a condescending tool.
agree with her or not, she didn't deserve that patronising reply.
that was my point, but feel free to call me a fool now if it makes you feel superior.

[XTC]

It's illegal to sell used helmets in Australia (i've heard). It's not illegal here. So she should possibly write to parliament instead and get us yet another law that restricts our freedom of choice?

[Big Dave]

ooh - have a struck a nerve, big guy?
her post was well meant and you were a condescending tool.
agree with her or not, she didn't deserve that patronising reply.
that was my point, but feel free to call me a fool now if it makes you feel superior.

what - nerve?
fwiw I reckon you are a bit of a tool too.
have a nice life.

[marty]

Ah come on. Trademe shouldn't be responsible for what people sell, besides it would be too difficult to monitor. What's next, no porn either? Shit, bikes are dangerous too, let's ban them.

Can't do this, ban that, control this, stop that, censor this, outlaw that, tax this, fuck that. You could get a job in the Labour party.

trademe is already well covered. threy're pushing the soft smelly stuff against gravity with a very sharp stick....

(from trademe website)

2.2 At your own risk: Transactions and all other contact between you and other members are conducted entirely at your own risk. You agree that Trade Me takes no responsibility or liability for any misconduct of any of its members including, without limitation, members that have registered under false pretences or who attempt to defraud you. Trade Me gives no undertakings, representations, or warranties in relation to items sold or listed on the web site, including:



about ownership of any item;
as to the content, safety, description, worthiness, quality, or legality of the items that are listed on the web site;


as to the accuracy or truth of listings;
that any item will meet your requirements or expectations; or
about the ability of members to complete a transaction.

2.3 Disclaimer: You expressly understand and agree that:



your use of the services is at your sole risk. The web site and services are provided on an "as is" and "as available" basis. To the maximum extent permitted by law and without limiting clause 2.2, Trade Me disclaims and excludes all implied conditions or warranties, including, but not limited to, any warranties of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, and non-infringement;

[placidfemme]

Oh well like I said, this thread would probably piss a few people off (Just like when I offered to give away my helmet that had been worn only twice because it was too big, never dropped and always stored in a box with padding, and yet I got a lot of "don't do that" & "it's dangerous" and all that carry on... now that I'm suggesting to try to make a change and promote safety people are jumping on the "taking away our freedom" bandwagon). However, I still believe that it is unsafe, exspecially for newbies.

Even if the ad does state "second hand" or "been dropped", or has scuff marks on it, a newbie just getting into biking won't usually know that affects the strength and purpose of the helmet... and given that newbies have a higher chance of having an accident, it is important that these arn't given to them as options.

[Big Dave]

Oh well like I said, this thread would probably piss a few people off

I'm not pissed off if you mean me. you've done well starting another debate.

Would consider coming to this bronz thing?

[Lou Girardin]

Could this be in the realm of "personal responsibility"?
I, for one, don't want to be protected from everything.

[Big Dave]

Could this be in the realm of "personal responsibility"?
I, for one, don't want to be protected from everything.

I'm coming to get you, lou - have you seen how my luggage looks? hopefully it's fitted by now.

[Hoon]

I agree. Not all of us place safety above everything else. When I was buying my first helmet or 10, I didn't see it as a safety item but more as an annoying requirement which costs me money that I need to wear in order to avoid getting a ticket! So as expected I wanted to spend as little as possible on it.

Even now that I'm older and wiser, I may buy a $1000 helmet to protect me racing but reality prevents me from replacing it after every crash (it's seen 5+ now) and it would probably have to take a pretty decent knock before it is replaced.

My point is that you need to educate the buyer, not the seller (or in this case those providing a service to the buyer and seller). And even then the buyer still has the right to ignore this and buy a defective ticket saving helmet at their peril which I believe will still happen purely because they can.

[sunhuntin]

while i see where youre coming from, placid...if a newbie rider doesnt understand that a dropped helmet can be weakened, then it is not the fault of the seller if the buyer did not educate themselves. my first helmet was a $99 from cashies...that kept me alive in 2 wrecks [one on grass, and the other on the road] my new one is too big, so considering going back to the old one... myself, i knew the risks if buying a 2nd hand lid and took it. if i could legally ride without one, i would.

[WINJA]

did you send them an email about dogs that might bite someone , or second hand hair driers that might catch on fire , really who cares , the world is regulated enough with rules and regs and bullshit without another little rule being added , caveat emptor or something like that

[Big Dave]

caveat emptor or something like that

I hate it when you beat me to stuff.

[jonbuoy]

I think its a con by the manufacturers - if you drop an empty helmet from a metre above the ground, theres no way it takes anywhere near the impact that it would with my big noggin inside it kissing the pavement at 80KMs or so. It doesn't take much to scratch a helmet in normal use - it would be pretty obvious if its had a fair whack.

There maybe a genuine reason for selling it - like they want the latest and greatest or it pinches their ears or something.

Please don't spoil it for the bargain hunters!!!

[Jantar]

I beleive the only way to properly test if a helmet is still any good destroys the helmet in the process. You can only make a visual inspection of the external and internal surface, which may or may not reveal any clues as to the suitability of the internal foam.

I have a very good 4 step method of testing old helmets to see if they are still OK:

Step 1. Visually inspect the outer shell for any sign of damage.
Step 2. Visually inspect the straps, fastners, and stitching for any sign of damage.
Step 3. Slice the helmet open (an axe or machete works well) and check the inner for consistancy and conformity.
Step 4. Repeat step 1.

If the helmet fails any step it must be replaced.

I have tested around a dozen helmets over the years, and the strange thing is that every old helmet I have tested has failed. Most fail at step 1. A few at step 3, and the remainder at step 4. :whistle: Only 1 has failed at step 2.

[Ixion]

One very obvious reason for people selling undamaged helmets is that they are giving up motorcycling (money, family, old age, whatever) , or have done in the past, but kept the helmet. Which they now decide to clear out. Or sometimes a couple will each have a lid, he has a bin and gives it away . *Her* undamaged helmet (she not being pillion at the time) is obviously surplus and is sold. Also young folk often sell their bike, go overseas , levae the gear with Mum and Dad, who eventually sell it. Lots and lots of reasons.

[DirtMad]

Ive emailed them over concerns in the past. Bottom line for them is: unless they will loose out on money, or be faced with certain legal action - they dont give a crap :doh:
There will always be tight arses or ppl with limited income that would like to buy a used helmet... after all - even a shit helmet is better than "the bare mullet" on the guy that rides up and down my street :eek:

[Virago]

While I can understand your concerns about the dangers of second-hand helmets, I don't believe that trying to ban the advertising and sale is appropriate.

As others have pointed out, there are many vaild reasons for the sale of a second-hand helmet.

There are far too many zealots in our society, who all want to protect the rest of society from itself, and want to ban the advertising of "unsafe" items, for instance firearms.

My first helmet was second-hand, bought from a bike mechanic who wanted a different helmet for himself.

[vtec]

I have a feeling that there is a lot of bull crap out there about helmets getting damaged from minor drops. I think its rumour thats been spread by helmet manufacturer's/retailer so they can sell more helmets.

Can anyone show us some definitive information about the safety of dropped helmets. What happens if you crash with the extra weight of your head in the helmet... and low and behold your head hits the ground then you hit a wall or something, I have a feeling that the helmet will still be effective on the wall impact

Still this is about 2nd hand helmets. I reckon selling second hand helmets is fine, just means that poor people can wear them too. Plus they might just be used for low risk things like drag racing cars, or props for various reasons. I myself will only buy new, but I reckon a $100 FFM helmet will do the trick, and you could buy 10 of them for the price of some of those other brands. Means you can chuck it after crashing. But I won't unless there is some very noticeable damage.

[Big Dave]

Co-pilot once lined up a ride with a work associate on the back of 'Pantine's' speed triple.
tidy looking, leggy brunette who we discovered had a bit of a 'Jeckyll and Hyde' - in and out of work modes.
Quite well mannered in the work kit, but Dave reckoned he was going to sell the helmet cause he couldn't get the smell of Rothmans and Steinlager out of it after she wore it casual.

[James Deuce]

It's not shell damage that is the issue, it's the foam liner inside. That is the MOST important part of a helmet. The outer shell is there to take the brunt of an initial point impact and the liner slows the acceleration of your brain against the inside of your skull. If the liner is damaged or compressed it doesn't work as well, increasing the damage caused by the head injury you just got. Every blow to the head that causes even a minor concussion has the potential to limit your life in some way, from random unexplained headaches right throught the spectrum of sensory impairment to catatonic vegetable status. You only need a gentle hit in the right place to rupture important blood vessels.

Of course I see that the NIMBY brigade will, and have insisted that it can't possibly happen to them. A cut in the foam lining that you can't see (say from keys or glove fittings) could kill you. Foam lining compressed by a couple of years of crabon fibre knuckled gloves being rammed into the helmet can lessen the quality of the fit and transform a head injury from a headache to unconciousness or worse.

I support what Placidfemme is doing here. If the Helmet is second hand it no longer meets the standard it was constructed to. That is why cots that do not meet NZS requirements were pulled from Trademe.

I'm thoroughly disgusted that one person's attempt to change one thing that can be aimed at and MAY save someone from decreased quality of life has been thoroughly rubbished without any qualms by people who should be a little more mature than that. BY all means debate. There's no need for ridicule. As for attacking a bigger issue, success with smaller issues helps build a methodology for approaching organisations who hide behind capitalist ethics, or a Government department run on a bureaucracy.

Have a look at the link below. I'm thinking of retiring the Arai and getting a "cheaper" helmet that is of less rigid consttruction.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/hatz/

[placidfemme]

It's not shell damage that is the issue, it's the foam liner inside. That is the MOST important part of a helmet. The outer shell is there to take the brunt of an initial point impact and the liner slows the acceleration of your brain against the inside of your skull. If the liner is damaged or compressed it doesn't work as well, increasing the damage caused by the head injury you just got. Every blow to the head that causes even a minor concussion has the potential to limit your life in some way, from random unexplained headaches right throught the spectrum of sensory impairment to catatonic vegetable status. You only need a gentle hit in the right place to rupture important blood vessels.

Of course I see that the NIMBY brigade will, and have insisted that it can't possibly happen to them. A cut in the foam lining that you can't see (say from keys or glove fittings) could kill you. Foam lining compressed by a couple of years of crabon fibre knuckled gloves being rammed into the helmet can lessen the quality of the fit and transform a head injury from a headache to unconciousness or worse.

I support what Placidfemme is doing here. If the Helmet is second hand it no longer meets the standard it was constructed to. That is why cots that do not meet NZS requirements were pulled from Trademe.

I'm thoroughly disgusted that one person's attempt to change one thing that can be aimed at and MAY save someone from decreased quality of life has been thoroughly rubbished without any qualms by people who should be a little more mature than that. BY all means debate. There's no need for ridicule. As for attacking a bigger issue, success with smaller issues helps build a methodology for approaching organisations who hide behind capitalist ethics, or a Government department run on a bureaucracy.

Have a look at the link below. I'm thinking of retiring the Arai and getting a "cheaper" helmet that is of less rigid consttruction.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/hatz/

Wow thats some article... thanks for posting that, gives a lot more light on the subject :)

[Motu]

I've got no problems with buying a second hand helmet - I've been wearing one I got at Cash Converters for 5 years or more.But it's an important decision and not one I take lightly - I certainly wouldn't buy one unseen over the internet.

[MSTRS]

Not sure if it's been said but it's not illegal to sell used helmets so why should TM change their rules. It is buyer beware on all used goods regardless of what it is - at least it is on private sales

[jonbuoy]

Make sure they don't have nits/crabs...............

[placidfemme]

Well I got a response from them:

Dear Tammy,

Thanks for contacting us. I am sorry for the delay in replying to you.

We liaise with a number of government agencies and one of these is Land
Transport New Zealand who regulate Motorcycle helmets.

I will now contact LTNZ and ask whether they have any concerns with any of
the Motorcycle helmets being sold on the site and will take action they
deem appropriate.

Thanks for bringing this matter to our attention.

If you have any further questions or if I can be of any further help
please do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards,

Loren

Trust and Safety Officer
Trade Me

[SwanTiger]

Complete and utter waste of fucken time, you are dealing with a pack of fucken faggot Wellingtonians. Trade Me suck.

If you didn't notice, I hate Trade Me (staff). Theiving bastards.