Another stupid question - engine braking

[Lazy7]

Just full of dumb questions i know. but this one got me thinking yesterday.

when i am riding my bike and need to brake, either because i am coming into a corner, or just stopping at the lights, i engine brake like i do in a car...

and i was wondering if i should? the reason being that i worry that the compression might lock up the back wheel if the road is a bit slippery, or if i am braking quite hard and most of the weight is on the front wheel?

coming into a corner, i like to be in the right gear for the way out, but they say not to brake when the bikes turning, and engine braking kinda the same thing...

what you say?

[Darryboy]

Well for when your turning you'd want to be in the correct gear before you enter the corner and change up appropriately.

[Devil]

'Brake on the straight before its too late'.

As for locking up under engine braking, thats bike and road condition specific. Time with you bike will teach you what you should and should not do.

[WRT]

Even if it does cause a bit of lockup in the back wheel, it still wont stop turning completely and it gives you good practice for what happens if you completely lock up the wheel by over using the rear brake in an emergency stop (which is not that hard to do).

Plus its fun.

[sAsLEX]

and i was wondering if i should? the reason being that i worry that the compression might lock up the back wheel if the road is a bit slippery, or if i am braking quite hard and most of the weight is on the front wheel?


depends on the bike, alot come with slipper clutches these days and allow you to just chop down gears and dump the clutch basically without locking the back wheel, but prob dont try that on your bike!

[sAsLEX]

by over using the rear brake in an emergency stop (which is not that hard to do).


it isn't if you never use it! I use the engine to help slow down and keep it settled through corners though I do have a slipper clutch of sorts

[The Stranger]

Just full of dumb questions i know. but this one got me thinking yesterday.

when i am riding my bike and need to brake, either because i am coming into a corner, or just stopping at the lights, i engine brake like i do in a car...

and i was wondering if i should? the reason being that i worry that the compression might lock up the back wheel if the road is a bit slippery, or if i am braking quite hard and most of the weight is on the front wheel?

coming into a corner, i like to be in the right gear for the way out, but they say not to brake when the bikes turning, and engine braking kinda the same thing...

what you say?

No reason why you can't engine brake, most people do to one degree or another.

Yes you should be down to speed and as soon as you tip in back on the throttle, but should you still be engine braking at tip in mostly it wont affect the ability to turn. What I am saying there is, if you are on the front brake and trying to turn the bike it is really sluggish to turn, however many actually use a little rear to assist at this stage anyway, it's called trail braking.

As to locking up the rear, this can easily be controlled by how you release the clutch. If you bang it down then drop the clutch the rear will lock, but if you bang it down then ease the clutch out it wont lock.

[Fishy]

I love engine breaking!. Compression locking changing from 3rd to 2nd at high rpm locks up the rear wheel nicely and gives a good wiggle before throwing it in to the corner. :2thumbsup

[k14]

You should try to blip the throttle on down changes, that will keep the bike nice and settled on down changes when you are coming into a corner. Even if the bike you are riding has a slipper clutch you still can blip to make it smoother, it just doesn't need the accuracy of a blip on a bike without a slipper clutch.

I just stick to two strokes, throw it down as many gears as you like and never have a problem :first:

[sAsLEX]

I just stick to two strokes, throw it down as many gears as you like and never have a problem :first:

till you over rev and then have to rebuild the thing! ahhh got to love the high compression and rev limeter, will just lock the rear and save the engine

[Ixion]

I use mainly engine braking on 4 strokes, and just trail the rear brake. A good blip will stop wheel locking on anything but a big V twin. Two smokers are of course another matter, though contrary to common belief a BIG two stroke does have some, significant, engine braking.

[avrflr]

Practice your throttle blipping on the downshifts so you don't lock the rear wheel. If you do it regularly on the street it makes it easy on the track. Plus it lets the cages know you are coming. And it sounds cool. And it's kinder to your machine.

[Wonko]

I engine brake most of the time. As long as you don't drop the clutch while changing down you should be fine.

[scumdog]

Blip when changine down - kinder to your g'box and keeps the ride smoother, get into the gear you think you'll need for coming out of the bend BEFORE you get into it.

[pritch]

What I am saying there is, if you are on the front brake and trying to turn the bike it is really sluggish to turn, however many actually use a little rear to assist at this stage anyway, it's called trail braking.

Ummm this is rather surprising news. I thought the bike actually turned quicker if the front brake was on. The weight thus moved on to the front wheel, and the change to the geometry caused by the compressed front suspension, making the bike react faster.

I also understood trail braking to normally involve use of the front brake (or both?). I haven't thought about it but entering a corner with the back brake on sounds like a recipe for problems, unless maybe you're a Motard rider.

Trail braking may not be the first skill new riders should be practicing, and turning under brakes shouldn't really be necessary on the road. ( I guess we all stuff up from time to time though :-)

The back brake is useful for testing the degree of traction available on a particular road surface. Apply it gently while vertical and if the wheel locks proceed with caution.

[Lou Girardin]

If you don't engine brake, you don't get all the lovely popping and banging that wakes up cage drivers.

[Lazy7]

right then. thanks for all the replies. i think i got an answer to my question. basically keep doing what i am doing!

i just didn't want to pull up to the lights behind an experienced biker and have him/her thinking... WTF? why is that tard engine braking???

hehe. okay. back to work!

[nadroj]

right then. thanks for all the replies. i think i got an answer to my question. basically keep doing what i am doing!

i just didn't want to pull up to the lights behind an experienced biker and have him/her thinking... WTF? why is that tard engine braking???

hehe. okay. back to work!
Doesn't hurt to lightly touch the brake to illuminate the brake light to let those behind know what you are doing (other than at a stop) to help prevent a nose to tail as is common with bike groups.

[Motu]

Engine breaking? Ah,music to my ears.....

[gixermike]

I thought the question would be the other way around, 'who doesn't engine brake'. Good plan is to do a route your familiar with, and not touch the brakes at all (other than to scrub the last 20k's off at a junction etc). no breaking into corners so nice and stable, no brake lights (confuses everyone else)...gets you taking smoother lines and looking much much further ahead, just go up and down the gears the hole time. clutchless up, blip and change down. you can flow really nicely like that. and it looks cool!!

[Mooch]

You should try to blip the throttle on down changes, that will keep the bike nice and settled on down changes when you are coming into a corner. Even if the bike you are riding has a slipper clutch you still can blip to make it smoother, it just doesn't need the accuracy of a blip on a bike without a slipper clutch.

I just stick to two strokes, throw it down as many gears as you like and never have a problem :first:

Lol K14 , Get a throttle blip wrong with a Vtwin running a slipper and it re-enages again, not good on a vtwin as the back wheel stays nicely locked for a while. Got close to getting highsided when I got that wrong.

Tend to used engine braking quite a lot for normal riding. Vtwins have excellent engine braking.

[quickbuck]

I thought the question would be the other way around, 'who doesn't engine brake'. Good plan is to do a route your familiar with, and not touch the brakes at all (other than to scrub the last 20k's off at a junction etc). no breaking into corners so nice and stable, no brake lights (confuses everyone else)...gets you taking smoother lines and looking much much further ahead, just go up and down the gears the hole time. clutchless up, blip and change down. you can flow really nicely like that. and it looks cool!!

Yeah, gotta start riding like that again. Front pads every 6 months is just plain silly. I think I will be up for Discs next time too :(

[maniac]

I thought the question would be the other way around, 'who doesn't engine brake'. Good plan is to do a route your familiar with, and not touch the brakes at all (other than to scrub the last 20k's off at a junction etc). no breaking into corners so nice and stable, no brake lights (confuses everyone else)...gets you taking smoother lines and looking much much further ahead, just go up and down the gears the hole time. clutchless up, blip and change down. you can flow really nicely like that. and it looks cool!!
clutchless up? isnt that bad for your gearbox? forgive the stupid question.:confused:

[quickbuck]

Na, Bike g/box's are constant mesh. This is bike talk for sequential. As in the gearboxes that touring car drivers rave about. Bikes have had em for years.

So long as the load is off you can comfortably change up through the box.

Going down takes a little abuse, and I wouldn't do it myself. It is a bit hard on the drive train, because everything is going from driving to driven.

[maniac]

Na, Bike g/box's are constant mesh. This is bike talk for sequential. As in the gearboxes that touring car drivers rave about. Bikes have had em for years.

So long as the load is off you can comfortably change up through the box.

Going down takes a little abuse, and I wouldn't do it myself. It is a bit hard on the drive train, because everything is going from driving to driven.
good to know thanks :2thumbsup

[gixermike]

Just hesitate / roll the throttle of for a split second as you pull the next gear and accelerate again once it's in. first go will be dodgy (like first ever pull away was) as you need a bit of timing, but its easy to learn. try it in the high gears (closer ratios) to start with and work your way down to first to second when you get the hang of it.

[Goblin]

Maybe Im weird.....but I rarely use my back brake at all:mellow: I use my gears to slow me down for corners and its usually only a token touch of the clutch to change down, with a blip of the throttle. Has always worked for me:confused:

[pritch]

clutchless up? isnt that bad for your gearbox? :confused:

Apparently not. It's recommended when carrying a pillion passenger as it permits smoother changes. I don't do it changing to 2nd and 3rd but routinely do it changing to the higher gears when on the open road.

[Sutage]

Maybe Im weird.....but I rarely use my back brake at all:mellow: I use my gears to slow me down for corners and its usually only a token touch of the clutch to change down, with a blip of the throttle. Has always worked for me:confused:

I find most of the time i do the same

[kickingzebra]

Back brake is all good, good combination of engine braking and rear brake for stopping at corners, although I had a bike with a warped disc for 6 months of commuting, maybe it taught me some bad habits!!
The way I figure you come up to the stop, and if you see someone coming up your ass at a great rate of knots, It aint a mission to take off again, as there is no movement from braking to accelerating, also make for a smoother stop with no front compression, which is good for the pillion.

[boomer]

I love engine breaking!. Compression locking changing from 3rd to 2nd at high rpm locks up the rear wheel nicely and gives a good wiggle before throwing it in to the corner. :2thumbsup

Im the same although i fear one day that wiggle won't be a wiggle, it's very addictive :yeah:

I find that i'm staying high in the revs all the time and only use engine braking, unless i have to come to a sudden halt. This is a worry sometimes when i've got someone following and they dont see my tail light also i'm wondering if it adds greater strain to the engine?

[Motu]

Na, Bike g/box's are constant mesh. This is bike talk for sequential. As in the gearboxes that touring car drivers rave about. Bikes have had em for years.
.

Just about every gearbox...bike,car or truck has been constant mesh since atleast the 30s.The sliding dog on a car gearbox has the syncromesh as well.A truck gearbox is more similar to a bike 'box,using toothed sliding dogs.Sequental is just the shifting mechanism,bikes use a drum or plate and have to go through each gear in order,rather slow...but an ''H'' pattern is hard to use on a bike.

[Lazy7]

yeap. its not hard changing gear clutchless on a car...

infact my master cylinder went on an old mini i had, drove it around for about a week before i buggered the gearbox with all the starting from stopped gave it too much of a hard time.

have yet to try it on a bike though

[terbang]

Brakes are primarily for braking and engines are primarily for accelerating.
Approaching a corner I use the brakes to slow down whilst shifting down to arrange my RPM correctly to maintain and eventually power me out of the corner at the appropriate time with as much grunt as required.
Too higher gear and you open the tap and it wont accelerate out (everyone else just sails past or runs up yer ass) and too lower gear and it just revvs the shit out of it, makes a lot of noise (and you are now alone on the road) so the skill on down shifting into a corner is based around an eventual power application. The advantage (or byproduct) of shifting down is that you can also use some engine braking advantage and this can be a nice bonus. On a lot of bikes this can be an excessive amount that will give you a rear wheel lock up, hence the slipper clutches that are fitted to such types. On a Sprot bike its your front wheel that does all the retarding in a straight line and the back brake and engine braking augments it on a lightening (as in getting light on the road) rear wheel. However it is a common technique to use the braking effect (brake and/or engine) on the rear wheel to assist with stability and directional control during high speed turn entries or, in some cases, patching up an over-cooked turn whilst retaining a suitable lean angle as the front brake will tend to stand you up. Tricky stuff using any sort of a brake whilst leaned over in a turn and often ends in tears..So I gues the moral of the story, or the safest option is to get it all done (or at least the majority of it) before you roll into the corner. Somewhere around this site I see a Signature (can't remember where) that says something like "Enter the corners slow and exit fast" which makes good sound sense to a person that rides on the public roads. As always the application of any sort of rear wheel braking needs to be treated with respect as it has similar effect to that of pulling only the handbrake on your car and if mishandled the rear wheel will loose grip (skidding wheels have less friction) and eventually attempt to overtake the front.

[Zed]

I engine brake too, sometimes in conjunction with the brakes to slow down extra quick, the bike can certainly handle it. I'm of the opinion that every bike/car should be given stick from time to time, it's good for them, so accelerate & decelerate as much as you like, just keep it well maintained! :spudguita

[terbang]

I find that i'm staying high in the revs all the time and only use engine braking, also i'm wondering if it adds greater strain to the engine?

I think that our engines are robust enough to take a fair bit of a hammering on engine braking and that we can't be doing too much harm though I do tend to think that they were designed to be engines (to drive) rather than compressors (to be driven). The only arguement I have ever heard against engine braking was a few years back, in a totally different life, when I was being taught aerobatics in a non supercharged piston engine aircraft (CT4 airtrainer) we were taught to avoid diving at high speed with the throttle closed for engine considerations. The first being that the aircooled engines rapidly cooled with the high air flow and the cylinder heads cracked and the second was that being normally aspirated we would end up with internal damage due to the propellor now driving the engine rather than the other way around. It was explained like this: The intake butterflys are closed with a closed throttle and as a piston moves down the cylinder being driven by the propellor (or rear wheel) on an induction stroke it was creating a very low pressure area in the cylinder due to the limited amount of air allowed to enter through the intake. The induction process is now lagging behind the machinery and when the piston reciprocates and is being driven back up the cylinder on the compression stroke, initially unimpeded in a partial vacuum (for want of a better word), it then slamms into a partial charge mid stroke thus creating excessive, outside of design, loads on the piston and crank assembly (all at the wrong place) thus leading to possible damage. Quite different technology between Aero engines and Motorcycle engines I am sure though basic piston engine principles remain. All this aside I havn't heard of any bike engines failing during overrun or engine braking. Does anyone know anything about those engine brakes on trucks and how they work?

[Aiolos]

http://or.essortment.com/jakebraketruck_raio.htm

diesels control fuel flow, not air, so they dont create the low pressure terbang mentioned. thats what the engine brake does.



my keyboard is busted. on screen keyboards suck.

[Blairos]

As a rider of a V-twin, I have discovered the engine braking capabilities are quite pronounced - from what I read here I am tending towards a technique "tweak" by combining both the engine braking and a good moderate application of Front (with a lesser rear input too)

I guess the only way for me to discover, is to get out there and try it on a decent ride (away from too much traffic lol)

[Motu]

Does anyone know anything about those engine brakes on trucks and how they work?

There are 2 types of ''engine brake'' for diesels.Basic OE engine brakes are just a butterfly or gate valve in the exhaust pipe,the engine just works against the pressure,pretty useless,but does help a little bit.

The one you hear on the big rigs is the Jacobs Brake.On the overrun the piston comes up on the force of compression and is slowed down...unfortunatly this is negated as the piston goes over TDC and the force is released,pushing the piston down the cyl again.What the ''Jake Brake'' does is lift the exhaust valve just before TDC,so the piston is slowed by the effect of coming up on compression,but doesn't get bounced over down the otherside.

They are very powerful,and on an unladen tractor unit can lock the wheels and stall the engine (We were told never to use the brake in that condition,but it needed to be proved eh?) They have throttle and clutch switches - you can hear a driver double clutching sometimes with the Jake Brake on,this acts like a clutch brake and slows the engine quicker on shifts.

[pritch]

(We were told never to use the brake in that condition,but it needed to be proved eh?)

Bling for spelling "eh" right and not using one of the many strange variations seen around KB.

I thought I might try a little positive reinforcement.

[TLDV8]

ahhh got to love the high compression and rev limeter, will just lock the rear and save the engine

Good luck with relying on that theory...no rev limiter will stop the exhaust valves floating risking the pistons hitting them with excessive revs on downshifting... You might want to fit a US$1800 slipper clutch ASAP.

*
Anyone locking the rear wheel on a regular basis might want to practise clutch control otherwise it will only be a matter of time before being caught out in the wet (imho) (fwiw)..... i base that off riding a 13.7/1 comp V-Twin with a 120 rear tyre and conventional clutch.I think most people will be more than aware of what happens if the rear tyre locks and you are not straight in the wet.Chattering the rear in the dry can also be amusing come time to turn in.:eek5:

[Motu]

i base that off riding a 13.7/1 comp V-Twin with a 120 rear tyre and conventional clutch.:

Apart from the comp,that was my XLV750,and with shaft drive too.With my chop it down and toss it in riding style I got some serious step out on corner entry.With better tyres and an awareness of what it was doing the tyres showed extreme braking wear on the side knobs...you've got to get back on the gas early with these bikes.