what bike for formula 3?

[bumsex]

I want to start racing and am looking at getting into the formula 3 class. I see lots of different bikes in that class up to the sv650s. I cannot afford an sv and want a bike that is going to be reasonably competitive. Which bikes do you think have the best potential and can be obtained fairly cheaply? I was thinking a vfr400?

Any comments are much appreciated.

Chris

[HDTboy]

A ZXR400 would do the trick, I think there may possibly be one coming up for sale here at some stage soon

[Two Smoker]

A ZXR400 would do the trick, I think there may possibly be one coming up for sale here at some stage soon

My ZXR400L8 will be up for sale exactly at then end of April....

[rustys]

:Oi: Hope this helps for F3 class machine,you are looking for.
Multi-cylinder four stroke up to 450cc
Multi-cylinder and twin-cylinder two strokes up to 250cc
Twin cylinder two valve air cooled four stroke up to 750cc
Twin cylinder multy valve air or water cooled cooled four stroke up to 650cc
Single cylinder four stroke 126cc- open capacity
Single cylinder two stroke 126cc- 500cc

Twin cylinder four strokes shall be limited as follows;
(a) Up to 500cc no restrictions apart from fuel ( rule 10-17)
(b) Over 500cc, two valves per cylinder,are restricted to 750cc
and fuel as (rule 10-17), over 650cc must not be water cooled.
(c) Over 500cc three or more valves per cylinder,are restricted to 650cc and fuel as above.Must contain std air box, air filter element and carburettor
(with exception of removable jets)

Hopes that helps in selecting a suitable machine, that is why you do see a lot of different types bikes out there, its a shame that its got this far as F3 was orginally set up for cheap affordable jap imports the 250s / 400s.As you can see there is less of these bike racing in this class, and its bloody hard to be competitive as there is some late model expensive machinery in F3.

I my self race in F3 on a stock std ZXR 400, the bike has been totally reliable over several seasons,i spend very little money on up keep on it,tyres slicks will last a season, regular oil and filter changes thats all.
I am a young 59 year old started racing 3 years ago, meet lots nice people and having shit loads fun doing it!!! ( GO FOR IT BRO !!):ride:

having fun and
GROWING OLD DISGRACEFULLY

[FROSTY]

Dude --backing up what Rustys said- You are generally wasting your time initially getting a really fast bike. You need a solid reliable machine.
Youll find that in your first few races you will chop the biggest chunks out of your lap times --as You get faster youll start thinking about spending the bigger bucks.
A vfr is a pretty darn good bike --but save yourself a LOT of frustration either buy an ex race bike or budget to send your new toy to someone like AMPS or GP motorcycles to get the speed/rpm restricters removed -Itll cost ya $400 but well worth it I promise.
Ohh and end of april mella yella is up for sale too--1989 zxr400--the advantage of that bike is you get twice the races because it runs in pre 89 class as well

GUYS--a little not about the ol SV650's -- watch trade me --Im betting that 99-02 sv's are gonna be dropping in price ALOT -I saw one on there for 4k
Interesting though--at Pukiehole the sv's except for the top couple still aint setting any new lap records -so they aint much faster than the 400's
-To keep the class alive we need to move with the times --Decent 400 fours are getting harder and harder to buy and maintain.

[HDTboy]

My ZXR400L8 will be up for sale exactly at then end of April....
Figjam huh? Twas yours I had in mind.

How much are you looking for for it?
Frosty, how much are you looking for for yours?
I thought you could go up to 450cc multi

[rustys]

HDT BOY, Frostys got the bike for you good starting level,and yes mines a pre 89 as well so most race meetings for one fee, i get four practise sessions, 3 races F3, 3 races post classics pre 89, what more do you want. A bloody good days racing.

Having fun; and :
GROWING OLD DISGRACEFULLY:

[Kwaka-Kid]

Go the VFR400 i tells ya!! haha no im completely biased, i would put the ZXR400 infront of it.. excepting that the VFR is a touch nicer feeling ;)

But never worth modding up... FZR = wickedly lightweight :D 3TJ's that is.

Otherwise, there might be a VFR400 up for sale, as soon as i finish building it, bahaha

[kickingzebra]

Quote Frosty '"-To keep the class alive we need to move with the times --Decent 400 fours are getting harder and harder to buy and maintain.""

Is that your way of saying you think perhaps it is time to go the way of the twins etc? an SV seems like not a bad way to go, but then some 400s are going pretty cheap!

hell, there is a 200 ducati 748 on trademe, all race prepped, going for less than 10k, Is that a viable option, or an overcapitalisation for a beginner (like me, soon to be!!)

Soo much to come to grips with, Must Race, brain slowing down, only room for racing....

You guys really should warn the rest of the world that going fast legally is so addictive!!

[Two Smoker]

HDT BOY, Frostys got the bike for you good starting level,and yes mines a pre 89 as well so most race meetings for one fee, i get four practise sessions, 3 races F3, 3 races post classics pre 89, what more do you want. A bloody good days racing.

Having fun; and ::

Bugger off!!! Mines better!!! Its been proven that its faster....hehehe Just joking... Mella Yella is more than good enough

[Quasievil]

Well for my pennies worth, I race a GSXR400, good enough bike to get out amongst it, I aint the fastes dude thats for sure but for $1500 and another $2000 for setup etc and its a little ripper, very reliable and still manages to tickle a few bikes rear ends. In honesty though I think the NC30 or the ZXR400 would be my preference. Some of the above mentioned bikes would be good purchases, I can also offer you mine for an excellently priced $10,000:wait:

[TwoSeven]

So what class do the old 600s go in. I suspect these days they are getting closer to being nearly 40-50bhp down on the new ones.

Edit: I mean 92-95 model years.

[Quasievil]

So what class do the old 600s go in. I suspect these days they are getting closer to being nearly 40-50bhp down on the new ones.

Prolly post classics, I run 60 HP and thats about average in F3

[FROSTY]

zebra--all Im saying is that the 400's are all getting pretty old.If F3 is to stay viable as a class I believe bikes must be available to buy new as well as second hand.
The top 400 jockeys have spent moonbeams on em (ignoring TS who is a frigging freak of nature) By moonbeams I'd suggest well over 10k on engine work and another 3-5 on suspension.

Back to the origonal question.
My suggestions for an entry leval F3 bike
Mella yella Or another zxr 400--well it is mine gotta put it first.
VFR400 nc30 or rvf400
gixxer 400

[muzz]

[QUOTE=

hell, there is a 200 ducati 748 on trademe, all race prepped, going for less than 10k, Is that a viable option, or an overcapitalisation for a beginner (like me, soon to be!!)[/QUOTE]


No good for F3 as it is a 4 valve

[Back Fire]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=49933586&key=428632

[Brian d marge]

I am a bit worried about this spending of Moonbeams. I Havent raced on the road in NZ. but have a fair bit to do with bikes.

Can you modify a bike, does it have to be stock ??? for F3 For example lets take a VFR 400 , I would bin theat monstosity of a single sided swingarm , and also fit some better forks than are fitted . ( NO NOT ohdearlins ) just a decent set of cartridge forks that are more tunable than a plank with a hole drilled in it.

a set of decent road tyres. ( How long are F3 races ??) A cheap repairable exhaust of the same dimensions as stock .
jetting and stuff to release the full potential of the bike

Might have a bash and see how good a race bike I can come up with for the least bucks .... 60 hp approx ???
give me something to do at work tomorrow


Stephen

Will add to this after beer /////:wari:

[FROSTY]

Brian--I guess It depends at what level you are racing.
KK was pretty darn fast on his stock nc30 -with some performance enhancements.
Definitely a well set up stock bike is going to put you solidly into the say 1.13-1..15 mark at pukie and somewhere around the 43-45 mark at Taupo.
Now that will put you into the front end of the midfeild. I think thats the best place for a novice racer to be -just spend some time mixing it in with the crowd -getting a feel for basic racecraft.
IF you want to be racing at national level I'd suggest that unless you are able to do sub 1.10 laps you wont be able to compete.
Its not cruelty its just that those guys are up another level.
Ts is doing 1.07s and fitzgerald is doing 1.04s -
The average pace at club level is around the 1.12 mark

[Brian d marge]

Brian--I guess It depends at what level you are racing.

Definitely a well set up stock bike is going to put you solidly into the say 1.13-1..15 mark at pukie and somewhere around the 43-45 mark at Taupo.
Now that will put you into the front end of the midfeild. I think thats the best place for a novice racer to be -just spend some time mixing it in with the crowd -getting a feel for basic racecraft.
IF

Yup I would agree. See my CR. its an oldie but inside a goodie. Its on a wieght reduction program now ( was given a CR125 so will use that as a test bike)
BUT the point is my skills are Nowhere NEAR national level. So a 05 cr is an over capitilisation !

And just spending some time in midfield getting USED to being shafted in the corners ( and thinkin Damnn how he do dat !!!)

I mensioned earlier that I wondered how cheaply I could put together a good race bike. Well to cut a long story short it was 180000 yen or 2400 nz including a new set of michelin pilots. I used the Tj3 mentioned earlier , there is one here for 25 k yen with 4 days to go so it will be double that at least, I used kawa fully adjustable usd forks of a zxr or something and a scruffy ohlins ( I know what I said but it was cheap and looked like it fitted !)

That was a VERY QUICK check , but lets say all up its 5 k NZ , that would give you a good solid race bike that would put you mid field for 2 seasons ( I think I could do it cheaper still !!)

To get to that next level. My personal opinion is that the stock components can be made to perform. BUT SETUP is crucial. Can be done with stock components , I think it was Mat maladins AMA superbike Showa forks that were supposed to be 60 000 usd unobtainium, turned out to be nothing more than well put together stock forks , and Maladin won the AMA championship with them ( 91 I think)

I am a firm believer that racing doesnt need to be expensive Click on my signiture to see what I mean. I WAS going to try to lower the bike by using the later chassis. but decided ( at the mo I can get more milage out of the steel frame )

Stephen

[FROSTY]

Dude --over here you can buy a reasso club level bike for 2-3.5k
under 10 gets ya on a used F2 racebike prepped up.

[Brian d marge]

I did go on a bit of a shopping spree. I though what i wanted on the bike , did a quick shopping spree on Yahoo, and thats what I came up with. I used the yamaha, cause I have issues with the single sided swingarm and replaced the rear and front with something that can be used a bit more than the stock parts. So should give you quite a platform to work with.
But at entry level 2-3 k is a great start point.
If I didnt like scaring myself silly with the MX, I might concider going round in circles


Stephen

[cowpoos]

I think it was Mat maladins AMA superbike Showa forks that were supposed to be 60 000 usd unobtainium, turned out to be nothing more than well put together stock forks , and Maladin won the AMA championship with them ( 91 I think)


in 1991? u mean 2001?

and I'm pretty sue thewy were showa works forks like the yamaha boys had that year[do not quote me on that!!]

hows the new springs bro?

[Brian d marge]

The springs were a good mod, one of those If I had 20/20 hind sight it would have been the first thing I should have done.

I can hit the first whoop without that bone jarring thump, The bike seems to track better, A bit to early to tell

Maladins bike mayt have been in 2001 , I honestly cant remember, but they were bought using the buy back rule ama had , where at the end of the year you could buy the race winning bike for sod all.

But yeah , I would like to see a 400 class where the bits ON the bike can be used to teach the rider /mechanic about race set up. Possibly why Rossi is so succesful is that he can give feed back to the tech in a simple way , enabling his team to set up the bike quickly and accurately

Thats why on my dream racer I went on a bit of a shopping spree.

Stephen

[cowpoos]

I can hit the first whoop without that bone jarring thump, The bike seems to track better, A bit to early to tell



thats coz your old springs were compressing faster than your valving would allow [or using 100% travel]
you should have heaps more grip in turns now too!!! and stability!

[bumsex]

Thank for all your help guys.
What fuel is used in these bikes? Do the rules stipulate pump gas or is it okay to use av gas?

[Brian d marge]

thats coz your old springs were compressing faster than your valving would allow [or using 100% travel]
you should have heaps more grip in turns now too!!! and stability!

You are wasted as a milk extraction technician. The End of March I should be starting to test full on so will have lots of data

a bit stuck on theis data logger. the Jaycar unit is Ideal ( as in cheap) , but it doesnt store info.

My friend here has a shock dyno, so we will run te thing towards the end of the month and see what happens

I think in the first case I will just run the dyno and get a data sheet but later I would like to combine the data logger info , My Tony Foale software and a shim analysis program ( was online and free but its disappeared and the guy say it will be back on line soon ,,but,,,,)
to really dial in the shim stacks.

Oh well all in time.

Stephen ( thread hijacker extrodinaire!)

[rustys]

As Frosty says you can buy a good 400 for around 2-3 grand and ride about mid field in F3, it depends where you want to be and how much money you've got to spend.Generaly you will find a bunch of guys out there at your level,and not a lot of cash to throw at it,and you can have a shit load of fun, certainly improves you riding skills,and you learn alot about your motorcycle.
Iam no mechanic,but to keep costs down on repair work i am now doing most of the work myself, you will bin your bike from time to time thats to be expected in racing, i have done my own sub frame straightening, learnt to fiberglass and preperation for painting,and setting up of the bike in general doing all the Maintanance, its not a costly exersize and i am getting quite a buzz out of it.
I did start to go down the track of Dyno, and jetting all profesional like, but 6-700 dollars later did'nt seem to do much for performance, so simply put its back to factory standard, i could see lots money being thrown at it for what.
Better to improve rider skills before doing that exersize.

Any way back to the Question for Bumsex re fuel, yes standard fuel to av gas is fine, i use a mix of 50% 91 and 50% av Gas in my ZXR 400 find this is fine.

Having fun and "
GROWING OLD DISGRACEFULLY"

[kickingzebra]

O, Ta, might just have saved me 10 grand... Na, assing up a perfectly good ducati seems like a major overcapitalisation, and having to do it at trackdays, because it isn't road legal, that would be criminal!

Surely there must still be a lot of 400s coming out of Japan, as a japanese mate explained to me a few years ago, their license system means there are two grades of full road license, the cheap one, at $1800 dollars or something, which means you can ride up to a 400, and the expensive one, $2700 or something like that, which allows the use of more CCs. In theory, that should mean there should still be a huge market in Japan for 400s, so maybe someone needs to track them down and import a couple of container loads? (once again, I am reluctantly open to the quite strong possibility that I am wrong)

Does it take much to make the GSXR 400 competitive? I have a suzuki bias...

[rustys]

:yeah: I am suzuki bias my self, but has'nt stoped me riding anthing on two wheels.Over the years most 400 front runners have been ZXR s and FZR s. But GSXR s are out there. Getting the weight of them is a good start, ie factory muffler out, they weigh heaps, compared to and an aftermarket, and anything else you dont need, you will find it adds up to quite a few kilo's.Most top performers run total loss ignition, no heavy starter motor,just battery.
In Australia 400 racing is alive and well check out
www.rbimports.com.au
yep in japan there are still heaps of 400s avaliable

Having fun and "
GROWING OLD DISGRACEFULLY"

[FROSTY]

mella yella is available nowish

[feral1]

Hi Frosty,

Is your Mella Yella still avalaible. I am really starting to think about a F3 bike.
I missed out on TS' ZXR - shit bags- saw it on trademe just to late (not to PC savy - logged on etc) Hoon got a good buy and a good machine by the sounds of it.
I will PM you my work email adress. You may want to send me a pic or two. Then i can see whether its something for me

Kwaka Kid (Logan) you mention your VFR might be up for a move soon as well. You still got it??

Feral


EDIT: spelling

[FROSTY]

ella yella is sold--there was a viffer came up on TM recently --and theres I think a nc 30 in tradex pretty cheap

[Kwaka-Kid]

Yep, got an NC30. Almost fully ready to go. Just needs the new fork seals installing. will throw on trademe or here soon.

[feral1]

ella yella is sold--there was a viffer came up on TM recently --and theres I think a nc 30 in tradex pretty cheap


Yeah hi Frosty,

I saw the VFR on trademe, woulda have been good, had race fairings newly fitted and full new set of dunlops GP70's bidding was upto $810, but has been taken of trademe yesterday. someone would have made an offer.

Hi Kwaka-kid.

Your VFR sounds interesting. keep me posted.

feral

[feral1]

Kwaka-kid,

just another question
how do you go with getting good sticky tyres in a 18" rear size??

cheers
feral

[Kwaka-Kid]

no problems with GPR70SP's.

[feral1]

no problems with GPR70SP's.

Cheers for the reply.

Yeah i noted that the other VFR i saw on trademe a week ago had these GPR70's fitted as well.

So thats all good.

Feral