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Zed
9th March 2006, 08:24
I think it would be beneficial to have a discussion about why there seems to be so many bins on KB rides? I say “seems to be” because I have ridden on multiple KB rides (well over 50) and the percentage of accidents is relatively low to the number of rides, probably around the 5-10% mark, which is too high anyway in some peoples minds I suppose? I hear too often nowadays that KB rides are dangerous and full of wannabe road racers who endanger themselves and others, and this is just not true imo.
<O:p</O:p
I’m more interested in the thoughts from those Kbers who have frequented our group rides and actually witnessed the accidents, but of course opinions are welcomed from anyone here regardless of how ill-informed they may be!
<O:p</O:p
So why are there bins on KB rides? :sherlock:

soundbeltfarm
9th March 2006, 08:27
So why are there bins on KB rides? :sherlock:

they are normally at the servo's for tidy kiwis to stick their rubbish in.
:rofl:

Motu
9th March 2006, 08:28
Testosterone....

vifferman
9th March 2006, 08:30
Testosterone....
... causing macho male posturing bullshit?

bugjuice
9th March 2006, 08:32
I'd also like to point out that people crash. The fact it's their turn (if there is such a thing) is on a KB ride, is just crap luck.

But I also think with some, a competitive spirit arises, and those in front (while they may not know it, and they're just riding and havin a blast) are the pace setters, and those behind, are out to get them..

If you're prone to crash, polish one off before the ride.. Could save your skin..

Colapop
9th March 2006, 08:33
I don't have bike to ride.....

ManDownUnder
9th March 2006, 08:55
As an "outsider" to the rides (let's face it... I ain't a regular - maybe more fibre?)...

I think Motu hit it on the head. There's a lot of posturing goes on in KB (online) and without doing all those fun statistical analyses... there seems to be a reasonably strong correlation between the people getting in trouble with their mouths (in here), and those getting in trouble on the road.

It's a maturity thing - I've noticed it affect my riding as I've aged...

Check out the carnage rate of the squids.... check out the insurance rates of the squids (the insurers have done the maths... they possibly give the most accurate indication of all). There IS an age group and gender influence on accident... and I'm picking those same risk taking people are the ones that start off riding bikes.

I think there is usually a basis for stereotypes - albeit one we don't want to acknowledge - being non PC and all.
White men can't jump, girls can't read maps etc

Funny how, after science has caught up, a lot of these things can actually be proven. We recognise pattern subconsciously LONG before they hit the front of our brains.

Where I'm going with this is that I know of a number of groups that "ride by invite only" - people of similar style, bike and ability. A number of them have been set up by people pissed off with the levels of risk (and carnage) associated with some rides. They generalise - but often for good reason.

I think there is basis to the "KB carnage" theory. It's something we need to look out for... I'm not a fan of funerals.

Which leads me to my closing thought - a very serious one, and something I'd like to organise if possible. A visit to the morgue and enbalming rooms of a funeral home. It's very sobering, and it helps put those risks in context.

It scares me how a couple of folks in here remain "bulletproof", and I'll bet they've been a split second from death/injury - either to themselves or others.

rant over... and to Quote Hill Street Blues... "Let's be careful out there"

You don't have to ride like a nana... but realise you ain't Rossi either...
MDU

Fishy
9th March 2006, 09:03
People just don't wanna look like pussies infront of everyone else and try to keep up with the front runners even though its beyond their abilities and just get themselves in trouble.

You just have to accept that there are some naturally fast riders and experienced fast riders and then there aren't. If you aren't that fast and or lack the confidence to keep up with the faster guys then don't do it.

Never try to outride your ability (unless on a race track - where its safer and its the best place to push your ability to improve on it), its only a matter of time before it will end in tears.

enigma51
9th March 2006, 09:04
I reckon its a conspiracy from the goverment and the police. Thats what I reckon! We should watch it they might be "taping" into kb and put the evil plans in place for the big KB rides hmmmmm

Grahameeboy
9th March 2006, 09:05
I don't have bike to ride.....

:hug:.................................:drinkup:

bugjuice
9th March 2006, 09:13
I think there is basis to the "KB carnage" theory. It's something we need to look out for... I'm not a fan of funerals.

Which leads me to my closing thought - a very serious one, and something I'd like to organise if possible. A visit to the morgue and enbalming rooms of a funeral home. It's very sobering, and it helps put those risks in context.
Some good points there.
Personally, I hate funerals too. Just no fun in funerals. But to visit a morgue, as sobering as it is (i kinda know), I think would be forgotten in the heat of the moment. when you're hooning around, it's the moment that you're in, nowhere else..


People just don't wanna look like pussies infront of everyone else and try to keep up with the front runners even though its beyond their abilities and just get themselves in trouble.
as sad as that is, it's true for a few. Those people need a good reality check. But it's something most riders go thru. I probably went thru it, but now I don't care who's faster than me. I ride my bike at my pace. I'm faster than some and slower than some. Don't care.

everyone will be faster than someone, and slower than the next. that's the way it goes. if a newb thinks they're gonna keep up, then they're destined for the ditch. But if that's the only way they're gonna learn, what can you do?

aff-man
9th March 2006, 09:15
Been on qite a few rides..

I think a lot less crashing actually occurs than peoples perception.
If you think about it we hear of maybe lets say 3 crashes on a weekend and we think hit that was a bad weekend..... but then 200 people were riding so as a percentage probably a lot more cars crashed than bikes did.

I have also noticed that most of the people who crashed when I go on rides are learners/Noob's. And the most comman reason is that somethings happens and they panic. It's something that only time and experience will sort out so there is no quick fix.

Goblin
9th March 2006, 09:17
IMO it's not just Kb rides....every time you ride anywhere there's risk involved. We hear more of Kb crashes because we get on our computers and read about them. Non-Kber's often crash too but we dont hear about them.

The warm weather brings out more riders so the crash rate will obviously be higher. I have noticed the "North of Bombay" riders seem to have more bins than other areas:dodge:

Motu hit the nail on the head too....Testosterone does do strange things to some blokes.

Roll on winter I say! Cold weather sorts out the men from the boys. :cold: :yeah:

bugjuice
9th March 2006, 09:19
I also think there's a distinct difference between a newb crashing and an experienced rider crashing. Sometimes, shit does just happen, despite our best efforts.. Not every bin is cos of the manjuice within

Mental Trousers
9th March 2006, 09:25
Just over half of the crashes on KB rides that I've been on have been people who are still on Learners/Restricted licenses. A good size chunk of the rest (and the actual reason for a large number of the Learners/Restricted crashes) have been people trying to keep up. The remainder are just bad luck (ie Tony dropping the VStrom on his foot at 5kph).

Just from what I've seen, KB rides tend to have a wider range of abilities and experience then most other groups. Don't know why but it's probably something to do with being a website with no real world organisation and fluid rules, unlike clubs etc.

A very, very big emphasis needs to be put on riding at your own pace not someone elses.

Time for a coffee break. Might add more when I get back to my desk.

sAsLEX
9th March 2006, 09:32
Zed you will know of one of the crashes I tripped over, one rather experienced guy tripped up by decreasing radius corner who had two more bike follow him off the road. Was glad when he sat up and started swearing so I could tend to the others who were lying under bikes bleeding, but turns out was only a cut lip!

Another rider here I saw come off in front of me in a quite spectacular fashion after locking the rear and the cartwheeling through the air 30 feet above the ground! He to cut his lip and was rather groggy when I eventually found him!

Both those were on the infamous 22 and both, while travelling at a fair pace ( the first one I had only just let the back two crashers past and slowed for a bit as I thought the pace was getting up there) it was not that crazy fast, but the one thing is they didn't know the road. I could draw a picture of the first corner that got all those people in my head, I am turning into FF with a rather good knowledge of that road! and the second crash was caused by lack of road knowledge as well in my opinion.

So getting to my point I think a contributing factor to the KB crash rate is that KB rides take people out on to untravelled roads, and that people think because FF can go that fast it must be easy, without relising the intimate detail some people know their roads.

So if a road is new to you treat it with a bit of respect, you might not know about the decreasing radius corner etc that can trip up the unprepared.

ps sorry about using you as an example FF, long live FC

The Stranger
9th March 2006, 09:33
It's a choice Zed.

I chose to crash, I didn't realise it at the time, but mostly it is a choice.

Sure some are mechanical failure, but these are few and far between, we saw one last Thursday. There are the classic human failures of attention and these are fairly common, after all most of us here are only human. But a large proportion are choice.

All the skill in the world and all the training in the world wont change the number of accidents. All it will do is ensure that they happen at a higher speed. Valentino Rossi still bins.

If I ride at 75% of my ability I won't crash. If I ride at 85% I wont, even 99% is ok. But if I ride at 101% well I crash.

I chose to push my boundaries and ride to 10whatever%. I will push my boundaries again until I get too sore (or dead) or am satisfied that I have achieved a level of ability that I am happy with.

That is why I wear leather at all times, cause I know I can't be trusted to behave myself at all times.
That said. In future I will pick my time and place to go pushing my limits and do it in the safest manner that I reasonably can, and not with a pillion ever again

Fishy
9th March 2006, 09:35
I also think there's a distinct difference between a newb crashing and an experienced rider crashing. Sometimes, shit does just happen, despite our best efforts.. Not every bin is cos of the manjuice within

Yep very true, sometimes you just can't avoid or predict things like....say a diesel spill on a corner, a cow pat in the middle of your line, hitting a large plastic real estate sign while fully tipped over etc...

bugjuice
9th March 2006, 09:35
ff does that road every other day. he'd know when you moved a stone on the side of the road..

For me, the 22 is an awesome road. There's every type of corner you can imagine and ride. But it's long and there's a lot of corners (how many ff?). For the first few times, I rode real cautiously and remembered the bad/tricky corners. Once you get those sussed, the rest of the corners can be worked on. If you're going to remember any corner of a road, remember the bad ones and their surroundings so you know for the next time you're down that way

Zed
9th March 2006, 09:47
Some great answers so far people, thanks! :blip:


Just over half of the crashes on KB rides that I've been on have been people who are still on Learners/Restricted licenses. A good size chunk of the rest (and the actual reason for a large number of the Learners/Restricted crashes) have been people trying to keep up. The remainder are just bad luck (ie Tony dropping the VStrom on his foot at 5kph).

Just from what I've seen, KB rides tend to have a wider range of abilities and experience then most other groups. Don't know why but it's probably something to do with being a website with no real world organisation and fluid rules, unlike clubs etc.Two very pertinent points you make above MT, lack of experience and a mixing of a wide range of different abilities together can cause problems as I too have seen, hence the reason why I am stipulating the type of riders preferred on the rides I organise.

As I said in another thread, KB has organised group rides that cater for different skill levels & experience, and I think organisers should put more emphasis on tailoring rides for those different specific groups, rather than just a free-for-all anyone-turn-up type arrangement which is much harder to control!

enigma51
9th March 2006, 09:56
This might sound a bit mean but everything you guys are saying has been said about 4 milion times. Me I have made a descision to only go on a selected few rides (Call it invitation only or whatever) I dont like riding with the big groups anymore as there are to many people that go balls out when they should relax too much testorone I think. Know this is where the realy asshole side of me is going to show. I dont want to experience a death on a ride again espically not one of my mates and having been on a few rides of late I can say that tears are going to be shed very soon Im actualy suprised it has not happend yet.

I have been on some rides with some realy quick guys but the key factor has been I feel safe riding with these guys and i dont mind it but when you sitting behind someone going a good pace and he does some stupid overtaking move not once but repeatedly I shut the throttle and take another route!

Is this thread pointless I think so as I said in the begining we are repeating ourselves

Zed
9th March 2006, 10:05
Is this thread pointless I think so as I said in the begining we are repeating ourselvesNot at all, some things need to be said over and over again, i think we need constant reminding about some life & death issues. There are also many new members joining all the time and they need to think about these matters too, wot better way than to start a fresh thread!

Thanks for your input anyway enigma, i'll never forget that time you looped it leaving the Autobahn on a KB ride, wot actually happened there?

Teflon
9th March 2006, 10:08
99% of KB & non-KB rides i cruise.. the last ride/crash, maybe i was pushing the bike a little hard resulting in a tank-slap.. but ive had enough slaps in my time to call it bad luck.

Only advise i can give, wear your best boxers. you'll never know when it's your time to strip naked in front of nurses, x-ray chicks..

enigma51
9th March 2006, 10:15
i'll never forget that time you looped it leaving the Autobahn on a KB ride, wot actually happened there?

Penis got in the way!

Actualy dont know the rear just stepped out as I came on the gas felt like a real tit

chickenfunkstar
9th March 2006, 10:31
It is quite easy to get caught up riding someone elses pace instead of your own on some of the group rides. It can often happen without you realising it. I'm usually quite a sensible rider but I know that occasionaly, i'll have a bit of moment and then think to myself, whoa what are you doing Tom.

There always seems to be a massive race to get to the front of the pack as soon as we leave a meeting point, regardless of how fast a rider will be when we get to the twisties.

I've also noticed some silly speeds through residential zones, presumably so riders finish near the front. I'm not sure why this happens, there's no gold, silver or bronze for those who get there first.

I've sort of forgotten my point, but it was probably something to do with riders wanting to be seen as being 'one of the fast guys' by other riders.

SwanTiger
9th March 2006, 10:44
Most of the crashes I have seen were the direct result of stupid actions, however a few have been mechanical failures which by my definition do not count as a crash, they are 'accidents'.

I think people who organise rides have a responsibility to ensure that all riding styles are catered for unless stated otherwise. I believe most rides can accomodate slow and fast riders, so long as the route and 'pack' are managed effeciently.

HOWEVER, the rider themselves are burden with the responsibility to know their pace and only chase those who are within or slightly above their riding ability. I for one enjoy chasing another rider who is within my ability range. Take for example the two ZX7R's on the last ride that I was much quicker than through the corners. At one point I got ahead of them and pulled to the side to let them pass, so that I can chase them again.

There is no problem chasing other riders, so long as you are sensible about it, one will never improve on their riding ability if they stay riding at their own pace.

And for the record, my bin on marks Pitbike Monday night was a mechanical failure.

bugjuice
9th March 2006, 10:46
i have noticed (touching on something slightly ot) the speed thru towns and residential areas.. we often ride thru the same places, and those people are the last people we want to piss off. out in the sticks, fine, but thru towns and villages, it's not really on

SwanTiger
9th March 2006, 10:49
i have noticed (touching on something slightly ot) the speed thru towns and residential areas.. we often ride thru the same places, and those people are the last people we want to piss off. out in the sticks, fine, but thru towns and villages, it's not really on

Yep I think so too.

Something else I forgot to mention. There are some experienced riders out therer and it pays to behave if a newbie is following you, so that you can set a 'good example'.

I have learnt so many bad habbits from riding with certain people on KB rides and am still trying to shake them...

sAsLEX
9th March 2006, 10:51
i have noticed (touching on something slightly ot) the speed thru towns and residential areas.. we often ride thru the same places, and those people are the last people we want to piss off. out in the sticks, fine, but thru towns and villages, it's not really on

the lady on one of the coro rides with black yoshi, we all stop for a regroup and she is on the side of the road waving her arms like a crazy woman so half the people that took off did so on one wheel! :confused:

chickenfunkstar
9th March 2006, 10:52
I think people who organise rides have a responsibility to ensure that all riding styles are catered for unless stated otherwise. I believe most rides can accomodate slow and fast riders, so long as the route and 'pack' are managed effeciently.



What do you mean by this? I can think of no circumstance where an organiser can be responsible for someone else's crash.

SwanTiger
9th March 2006, 10:56
What do you mean by this? I can think of no circumstance where an organiser can be responsible for someone else's crash.

No where there did I suggest that the Organiser is responsibile for someone else's crash.

What do I mean? I mean that the Organiser has a responsibility to ensure the ride is ORGANISED for all types of riders unless stated OTHERWISE.

Re-read what I wrote. It makes perfect sense.

enigma51
9th March 2006, 11:01
No where there did I suggest that the Organiser is responsibile for someone else's crash.

What do I mean? I mean that the Organiser has a responsibility to ensure the ride is ORGANISED for all types of riders unless stated OTHERWISE.

Re-read what I wrote. It makes perfect sense.
There is no such thing as special roads for only newbies its up too you as a rider to take responsibility for your own actions ie join a ride or not

chickenfunkstar
9th March 2006, 11:06
What do I mean? I mean that the Organiser has a responsibility to ensure the ride is ORGANISED for all types of riders unless stated OTHERWISE.



Why is this important?

The rest of the post talks about people riding too fast / crashing, It didn't appear that the bit about the organisers was refering to something different, hence why I asked what you meant.

SwanTiger
9th March 2006, 11:08
There is no such thing as special roads for only newbies its up too you as a rider to take responsibility for your own actions ie join a ride or not

Well originally the Thursday night ride was open to newbies and guess what it attracted. No offence to QKCHK as I think she does a good job of organising, however the amount of newbies turning up certainly became a bit too much.

Which is a fair argument in my opinion. The organiser has a responsibility. Take the newbie ride as an example, Gremlin and Weasel were responsible for ensuring all the real newbies were looked after, as, it was a newbie ride.

If someone puts newbie in their ride, then, they're going to get newbies, simple. And thats where its their responsibility to look after the newbies.

QHCHK has done the right thing in regards to the Thursday Night ride, but saying experienced/faster riders only. That way she has less responsibility, persey. Make sense? I'm sure it does. I think it does. My decision is final.:moon:

SwanTiger
9th March 2006, 11:10
Why is this important?

The rest of the post talks about people riding too fast / crashing, It didn't appear that the bit about the organisers was refering to something different, hence why I asked what you meant.

This is important because if LooseBruce organised a ride with his mates and invited Newbies along, they'd all be fucked. Thats where its relevent and becomes the responsibility of the organiser to ensure that the ride caters to the type of riders it is inviting. I think its quite important and had a right to share it.

EDIT: Just to elaborate, can you imagine a newbie trying to keep up with LooseBruce? And there are a lot of people who rode bikes ages ago and get back into it, on big bikes 400 - 600cc 'ish and can be classed as newbies again. They go out following a ride thinking "yeah I can keep up" and end up crashing, big time.

terbang
9th March 2006, 11:11
My first KB ride was a coro loop and there were 4 bins and one carpark sprawl. It was also a ride where the organiser (suggester) had a hangover and left half way around because rain appeared on the horizon. There was also no formal briefing apart from what was gleaned from the web postings and nor did I expect one. I don't want to go down the testosterone and attitude and experience thing to anylize why people bin but rather compare KB rides, with associated bins, to other rides I have attended.
I have over the years belonged to a number of clubs (world wide) that organize very good group rides that are very well catered for the type of rider that the club attracts. The problem, as I see it, is that you have comittees and captains and secretarys ETC that can develop hierachal, holier than thou attitudes eventually narrowing down the spectrum of riders attracted or attractive to the club. Or in other words the club does not cater for all types of riders and those that dont fit the mould are not welcome or don't want to be there (not all of us want to join Christian bikers or Dykes on bikes). The good thing is that these club rides do offer is good leadership, guidance and rescource to those like minded people attending events and anyone not sure of what to do will be herded back into line by the structure of the club. KB doesn't follow any sort of structure, religion or creed and I guess that is why it attracts so many from many walks of life or in other words it appeals to a very broad crossection of the motorcycle community in NZ because it uses only the motorcycle as the commonality (it appealed to me). The rides are loosley organised as no-one really owns the ride and any sort of leadership on rides tends to, unoficially fall onto the organizer (suggester). There is No responsibility on KB for the rides as we take that upon ourselves (dont we?). As we can expect we will end up, on any ride, with a broad experience base of riders and abilitys and attitudes with little guidance of leadership. When riding on a Club ride I can stay within the club rules as they have responsibility and its easy, though may not be what I personally want to do, and there are no bins. When on a KB ride I follow my own personal rules riding my own ride whilst being tolerant of others that want do it differently whether it be within or outside of thier ability. Naturally I can expect to witness more bins on a KB ride. That, in my view, is why we have more bins than others.
Take it or leave it this is my personal rule.

The guy in front of me owns the road.
Ride my own ride (easer said than done).
Try to set as good example on the road as I can and be courteous to other users (also easier said).
Be responsible for my own actions.
Enjoy the ride..

vifferman
9th March 2006, 11:16
So why are there bins on KB rides? :sherlock:
Perhaps you could've started this off by relating how/why you binned your CBR600 on a KB ride, Zed? :spudwhat:

SwanTiger
9th March 2006, 11:19
Thank you terbang, I agree with your comments and they (in my head) elaborate on what I've been trying to say about the Organiser taking responsibility AND the association of lack of responsibility being in relation to the amount of crashes on Kiwi Biker rides.

Fucken hell, it would be much easier to shoot everyone on here than try to get your point accross.

EDIT: I knew there was a reason I wanted to join the Army, its never been more obvious. :blip:

chickenfunkstar
9th March 2006, 11:22
This is important because if LooseBruce organised a ride with his mates and invited Newbies along, they'd all be fucked. Thats where its relevent and becomes the responsibility of the organiser to ensure that the ride caters to the type of riders it is inviting. I think its quite important and had a righ to share it.

Why would they be fucked?

I've ridden with Bruce, Zed, Two smoker,Motoracer and quite a few others who can ride faster than i'll probably ever be able to ride. I've never crashed on those rides because MY pace isn't dictated by people who are far faster than me.

To suggest that my crash was caused by someone else being faster than me is almost laughable.

TONO
9th March 2006, 11:23
Just over half of the crashes on KB rides that I've been on have been people who are still on Learners/Restricted licenses. A good size chunk of the rest (and the actual reason for a large number of the Learners/Restricted crashes) have been people trying to keep up. The remainder are just bad luck (ie Tony dropping the VStrom on his foot at 5kph).

Time for a coffee break. Might add more when I get back to my desk.

Geez! My ego has been dealt a blow! I told everybody I came of at 105kph,:(
Have to agree with everybody so far.
Would add that if you ride a bike a lot the chances are very good you will eventually have a bin. (hopefully & with luck it will be a sobering one with not to much damage to you) If you ride a bike faster than the average Joe-blow then I believe your chances are greater(statistics probably agree)in having a really nasty Off.
On the subject of KB rides(i have only been on about a doz) the % of accidents have been possibly to high but none have been what I would call bad which tends to suggest (luck aside) that people may have been travelling a bit quick but were not necessarily dangerously so....if that makes sense.
I think we all have the odd close call eg: over cook a Cnr, hit some loose shit etc that makes us think a bit about what we are doing.
If a close call doesn't make you sit up & think about what happened then indeed that individual is in for a big one.
Just my thoughts people. Stay safe & ride with in your limits.

Question: How do you establish your limits?
Answer: By stretching them just a little at a timenot all at once.
TC

SwanTiger
9th March 2006, 11:24
Why would they be fucked?

I've ridden with Bruce, Zed, Two smoker,Motoracer and quite a few others who can ride faster than i'll probably ever be able to ride. I've never crashed on those rides because MY pace isn't dictated by people who are far faster than me.

To suggest that my crash was caused by someone else being faster than me is almost laughable.

Well imagine a newbie rider comes along on a big bike and as always, he decides to play 'chase'. At their paces how far down the road do you honestly believe the newbie will get? I say he, because females generally aren't stupid enough to place the chase game beyond their limits.

I never suggested your crash, now you are just being self centered in your argument and its making you look stupid in my eyes.

The suggestion was made in relation to NEWBIES and NEWBIES only, I even elaborated on the type of newbies I was referencing to.

How you came up with the above is beyond me. Are you even reading what is being said?


I think people who organise rides have a responsibility to ensure that all riding styles are catered for unless stated otherwise. I believe most rides can accomodate slow and fast riders, so long as the route and 'pack' are managed effeciently.

Was my original comment in relation to what we are now talking about.

The context of that comment was based off the 'context' of the entire discussion at the time, which leaned towards the bias that the majority of KB cashes were the direct result of newbie riders pushing their limits. The reason for said pushing of limits was a simple fact of 'catch the faster rider'.

Please tell me how this does not relate to the topic of this thread and how it is not applicable. It is my opinion, you are welcome to disagree but I believe you are missing the point.

Zed
9th March 2006, 11:32
Perhaps you could've started this off by relating how/why you binned your CBR600 on a KB ride, Zed? :spudwhat:Um...Avon sprots/tourer tyres and a 45 degree angle lean don't mix! :shutup:

aff-man
9th March 2006, 11:35
This is important because if LooseBruce organised a ride with his mates and invited Newbies along, they'd all be fucked. Thats where its relevent and becomes the responsibility of the organiser to ensure that the ride caters to the type of riders it is inviting. I think its quite important and had a right to share it.

EDIT: Just to elaborate, can you imagine a newbie trying to keep up with LooseBruce? And there are a lot of people who rode bikes ages ago and get back into it, on big bikes 400 - 600cc 'ish and can be classed as newbies again. They go out following a ride thinking "yeah I can keep up" and end up crashing, big time.

Ok I think I get what you are getting at. But you really shouldn't single out people...

Sure Bruce is fast but more importantly he is a bloody good guy. So maybe just maybe people want to go for rides with the people not because of thier skill levels but because they are good to have a yarn with. It also stands to reason that maybe the noobies want to be in an environment with more experienced riders to ask questions and improve thier skills.

How will this happen if all they do is ride with other people of a similar skill level with less understanding as those who have ridden more.

Riding with not necesarily faster (but this is usually the case) but more experienced riders will help your riding ability to no end.

If you are going to talk shit and then try back it up or try prove yourself you are probably going to end up in trouble no matter if your on a motorbike, a push bike, in a car,, on a pogo stick (ouch) etc etc etc. So in the end it comes down to the individual to decide if he/ she is up for a certain ride and if he/she can keep thier weener in thier pants.

aff-man
9th March 2006, 11:36
Um...Avon sprots/tourer tyres and a 45 degree angle lean don't mix! :shutup:

Tru dat brutha been there found that out.... dry cleaned the leathers

terbang
9th March 2006, 11:36
Geez! My ego has been dealt a blow! I told everybody I came of at 105kph,:(


Narp you can keep yer ego intact tony because at that speed you technicaly had a carpark sprawl rather than a bin.. Ummm Err which is worse..?

vifferman
9th March 2006, 11:37
Um...Avon sprots/tourer tyres and a 45 degree angle lean don't mix! :shutup:
Ah!! So that explains the multiple crashes on my VTR and current bike!
I'll have to make sure I don't lean further than 44 degrees till I can afford new tyres. :whistle:

SwanTiger
9th March 2006, 11:43
Ok I think I get what you are getting at. But you really shouldn't single out people...

Sure Bruce is fast but more importantly he is a bloody good guy. So maybe just maybe people want to go for rides with the people not because of thier skill levels but because they are good to have a yarn with.

Yep, fair comment mate.

Loose Bruce is a top example of a fast rider. It helped put weight to my point that if 'said newbie riders' went with him and were the 'said newbie riders to try catch faster riders going past their limits' then a crash is likely. It just puts emphasis on the need for organisers to be careful about the people they attract to rides. And I believe that becomes a responsibility. If you attract newbies, unless you cater to their riding abilities you can expect problems.

I think thats fairly reasonable and a good point of view on why there are so many KB crashes. Terbang put it nicely.

Anyhow this thread is turning to shit. Might carry this on at the pub tonight...

bugjuice
9th March 2006, 11:45
yeah, I guess there's another point Aff raises. Some riders are fast. And they often ride with the same group of people all the time.
Sometimes, the newbs or less experienced want to go on those rides to get some tips n stuff.. but quickly find themselves in unfamiliar territory. While it's good to learn from others, ask them first, don't just watch from a distance. And there's often rides (weasle organised a few I think), where newbs and experienced are on the same ride for this reason..

chickenfunkstar
9th March 2006, 12:04
Well imagine a newbie rider comes along on a big bike and as always, he decides to play 'chase'. At their paces how far down the road do you honestly believe the newbie will get? I say he, because females generally aren't stupid enough to place the chase game beyond their limits.

...

Please tell me how this does not relate to the topic of this thread and how it is not applicable. It is my opinion, you are welcome to disagree but I believe you are missing the point.


Ok. Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you're saying that Newbs shouldn't go on rides with faster riders because they will try to keep up. It follows that this situation should be prevented in the first place by not mixing the two groups. Correct?

I agree that if newbs think that they can keep up with the faster riders, they will crash in trying to do so.

I'm suggesting that it is 100% up to the newb what pace they ride. They are the only ones who decide how fast they should ride. If a person is 100% in control of their actions then they must also be 100% responsible for the consequences. If a person allows their confidence to outgrow their wisdom then they must also accept what happens as a result.

I was using myself as an example before because it seemed easier to get my point across, using me as an example. I was speaking hypothetically about my about my crash, i've never actually crashed. I wasn't trying to appear self-centered.

aff-man
9th March 2006, 12:05
yeah, I guess there's another point Aff raises. Some riders are fast. And they often ride with the same group of people all the time.
Sometimes, the newbs or less experienced want to go on those rides to get some tips n stuff.. but quickly find themselves in unfamiliar territory. While it's good to learn from others, ask them first, don't just watch from a distance. And there's often rides (weasle organised a few I think), where newbs and experienced are on the same ride for this reason..

And then you get bogans like me who are stuck in the middle....

Swantiger: In my all be it limited experience as I said earlier it hasn't been the newby trying to keep up that has caused the problem it has been the fact that they either
a)misjudged a corner
b)They panic and put on the brakes (making pop up or low side)
or
c)They don't clearly identify hazzads.

I am trying pretty hard but I can't think of someone who binned it trying to keep up. Or more importantly them trying to keep up was not the problem itself but more that in conjunction with the above reasons caused the bin.

I myself am not the fastest around and have on occation tried to keep up with the likes of bruce/TS/MR/Death etc etc. I have also had a few pucker moments in doing so. So no matter who goes on the ride be it a faster or not faster rider there will most probably be someone faster who you will at some stage try and keep up with....

Big Chim
9th March 2006, 12:17
I gather that all the coments made in this thread have been made by people who have been involved with Kb for some time and have greater experiance than me on the road. Hence i thought a view from a person new to this whole game could be benifical to maybe what is sort after by the newbies who attend rides. I have been riding for about 6 months.

What i want to get out of going on rides with other KB memebrs is the benefit of there experiance. Its alot of fun meeting and talking with new people but for me the biggest part of the ride is the learning. I have meet a couple of Kber's who I believe know what they are talking about due to there experiance (years on bikes) and more importantly how they ride there bike. I want to be safe on the road and understand cornering techniques and road craft and thats why i have chosen to listen to the poeple i do. This is not only riding with them on KB rides but going for rides when its just you and the person you are learing off because you get the one on one advantage and they can then take the time to teach you (be open to critcal comment on your riding, another way of advanceing your skills) and the realise you are there to learn form them. I also realise that on a KB ride if the person who i have been learning off takes off and does there thing I'm not obligated to keep there pace.

I agree to what is being said about in order for people to push there limits and grow there skill base they need to get together with more experianced riders but how about doing it one on one with and experianced rider when they know that you are taking notes on what they are doing and learning as much as they can from that example. I believe that then this provides a controlled environment to learn (as can be on the road). Awsome job to weasel and Co. that have organised rides also to provide a the newbie rides and providing mentoring.

Hope this all makes sense, theres no shame in being a newbie, we all start somewhere.

Marmoot
9th March 2006, 12:17
Crashes, damages and injuries?

I blame it on two factors: gravity and speed.

If there is no gravity and the bikes are stationary with 0 speed, there would not be crashes and carnage.....

sAsLEX
9th March 2006, 12:20
Tru dat brutha been there found that out.... dry cleaned the leathers

those things need replacing not cleaning!!

sAsLEX
9th March 2006, 12:21
there would not be crashes and carnage.....

especially to helmets:eek:

aff-man
9th March 2006, 12:25
those things need replacing not cleaning!!

Hey man you havn't seen what it looks like with just the banana-rama under suit on...

Seeeeexxxxxxxxyyyyyy

p.s. my hair could be another reason for KB crashes...... and my avatar

Marmoot
9th March 2006, 12:33
especially to helmets:eek:

Stay away from that subject, Mister......I just proved once again that Arai saves lives, even when it's already worn out. Ask FF for details :)


(and, yes I am saving up for a new helmet this time. That one is expired)

enigma51
9th March 2006, 12:40
And then you get bogans like me who are stuck in the middle....



Yeah tell me about it there is bogans like myself who is stuck at the back always So for all newbies if you want to follow someone dont follow me i will be behind you

Cajun
9th March 2006, 13:04
Okay i am to lazy to read some of these comments.

I but most likley these have said before, newier riders, pushing to harder than they should, People going fast on roads they are not firmliar with. And also some people here 'talk the talk' and try and 'walk the walk' when they can't, and start doing silly things. Some of the more expernise riders, i believe, also do not help by, doing things which they shouldn't, cause the newer rides see this, and in turn try if for themselfs. Or trying to show them things which they should not be learning at that stage of there development

As much people say don't push your own limits, as they saying goes 'monkey see monkey do'

Personally i rarely, if ever ride over 50% of the ability i have the road. You need to be able to call on that ability if things start turning pear shape, where newer riders don't have this ability to call on. But this isn't just newier riders, i know alot of mid 30's year old people, who ride like they are superman, when they are no where close. And due to fact they are older, they believe they are better, many years under the belt etc etc.

You have to ride like not IF, its WHEN, you come off.

One of the other common problems is the weekend or once/twice a monther rider the person who pulls the bike out every couple of weeks and goes for a ride. When spend rest of time in car. and due to this, they take time to get 'warmed' up to riding instead of driving. they take strange lines, and the like.

Personally I only ride with people i know and trust. There are many guys i know are great riders, but they take more risks with there riding. And well we ride in groups to have fun. And well you can't have fun if you are consitly worried, about them doing something risky and putting you both in danger.

---
Sorry if this is gone little off topic, or things already been said.

idb
9th March 2006, 13:09
There's a lot of posturing goes on in KB (online) ........ there seems to be a reasonably strong correlation between the people getting in trouble with their mouths (in here), and those getting in trouble on the road.
Now that would be an interesting theory to investigate!!

SwanTiger
9th March 2006, 13:38
Ok. Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you're saying that Newbs shouldn't go on rides with faster riders because they will try to keep up. It follows that this situation should be prevented in the first place by not mixing the two groups. Correct?

Let me tell the tale of my first Kiwi Biker ride which just so happened to be a Coromandel Loop ride.

I had only had the bike for roughly a week and was still getting use to it. A few of the people I rode with had previously spoken to me online and seemed like a good bunch, which they are.

However my level of skill was no comparison at the time and keeping up (especially on a 250cc motorcycle) was one big stressful event, especially when you are on unfamiliar roads in the middle of nowhere.

If it was not for a few of the riders stopping at intersections I would not of made it. Actually, it was lucky I made it back at all as I was (being a fresh newbie) trying to keep up with everyone else, out of desperation not to get lost. At times like that I wish I was a female, blonde and with big tits, then every rider would of ridden at my pace.

I did not enjoy the ride.

The next Coromandel Loop I did was the one somewhat organised by Jon (the American dude) however he was a "newbie" in regards to the route. So I think it was Nauha (spelling?) who took the lead and guided the group. Everyone seemed to stop at intersections and there was a wide variety of riders, the majority all going at their own pace. I enjoyed that ride more than any other ride I've been on so far.

This just illustrates how a poorly organised event can have a profound effect on the newbie rider.

In the first ride I mentioned you can see how lack of organisation prevented me from enjoying the ride. However the kindness of a few meant that I was able to survive the ride. The second ride had people taking responsibility for directing the group of riders and in general everyone was fairly well behaved.

I can't be bothered arguing a point no one seems to comprehend, however I hope the above paints the scenario of how a well organised and a not so well organised event can effect a rider.

So Chicken dude, to answer your question, you are incorrect. If people want to learn then to do so its only logical to ride with people who are better than you. However as I mentioned in another thead, it pays to pick people who are only slightly above your skill level rather than those who are well beyond with a few years experience riding.

Everyone does it at some point. You will get the red mist and try to chase people, eventually you'll make a mistake and crash. This is more common amount newbies than anyone else.

This can be prevented in instances when an organiser invites along newbie riders. They must be prepare to cater to their riding ability by ensuring someone of similiar or slightly more advanced abilities is able to ride with them. I see that as a logical move and the newbie ride Weasel and Gremlin organised is a fine example of how you can bring extremely slow and faster riders togeather and control them AND produce an environment for learning.

Now in saying this, I am in no way suggesting that the rider is void of any responsibility for his or her actions. However an organiser cannot be called an organiser for simply saying "I'm going for a blat down this this and that road, anyone wanna join me?" and then expect people to act in an orderly fashion by way of not crashing or being stupid.

Drunken Monkey
9th March 2006, 14:01
Are you implying non-KB rides are incident free? Unlikely.
Without having any figures at hand, my money would be on the number of persons represented in accidents to be statistically similar between KB and non-KB rides.

aff-man
9th March 2006, 14:13
If it was not for a few of the riders stopping at intersections I would not of made it. Actually, it was lucky I made it back at all as I was (being a fresh newbie) trying to keep up with everyone else, out of desperation not to get lost. At times like that I wish I was a female, blonde and with big tits, then every rider would of ridden at my pace.

Dude this happens to all of us no matter what your skill level...

I find that I ride alone most of the time usually to fast for the slower riders and to slow for the faster riders....

I ride to for the sure pleasure of riding and not to specifically ride "in a group"

The first ride you went on would have probably been made up of people who had been on KB longer. They would have (as you did mention) left someone at the intersections to make sure everyone went the right way. That being said they were going to enjoy the ride themselves knowing that we'd have a good yarn over lunch somewhere. Therefore didn't see a need to "baby" anyone on the ride . This in my experience is the way mos KB rides are done and I find it to be a good way of doing things. You shouldn't feel the need to keep up cause you know there should be someone waiting at a turnoff for ya.

Drunken Monkey
9th March 2006, 14:31
I find that I ride alone most of the time usually to fast for the slower riders and to slow for the faster riders....


See, we're about the same.

Maybe we should start out own "scared cow squadron"; midweek rides through the Hunua Gorge, secret handshakes (or is that steering-damperless headshakes?) and blue & white Gixxers only?

Pace: As always, faster than slow, but slower than fast?

Mrs Busa Pete
9th March 2006, 14:31
It's a choice Zed.


All the skill in the world and all the training in the world wont change the n
That is why I wear leather at all times, cause I know I can't be trusted to behave myself at all times.
That said. In future I will pick my time and place to go pushing my limits and do it in the safest manner that I reasonably can, and not with a pillion ever again
Hay good one CaN is that for any particular reason:wavey:

I think it is testosterone and also the adrenalin rust that you twats get when you are going fast.I do think that sometimes you should think about it especially when you have a pillion on board.(This directed at pete) Also going at a pace that is good for you.

R6_kid
9th March 2006, 14:41
Are you implying non-KB rides are incident free? Unlikely.
Without having any figures at hand, my money would be on the number of persons represented in accidents to be statistically similar between KB and non-KB rides.

thats the first thing that came to mind for me. Non-*insert organised group name here* rides have crashes too, its just that normally the skill level doesnt differ so much.

For instance... me neighbour, now on a CBR1000RR, has a group of mates (7 or 8 i think) that he rides with 'at pace' which i believe is rather quick for the road. Now these guys are in there 40's to early 50's and have been on bikes longer than i have been alive. They developed their skills riding together in difference environments and are now at the pace they are at, and each knows the other ability.

When you get to a place like KiwiBiker the whole thing changes... you get people with the skill (bruce,whitetrash,motoracer etc...) who have a fair bit of experience and natural ability, and more track time than most.

And then you have the newbies who ride commuter bikes, see a ride through the country and go "oh, wows, this looks like oodles of fun!!!" and go out for a ride with some crazy dude on a bike 4-5times the size and power.

What this leads to is a vast chasm of experience difference. Now there are two ways to close the gap. Fast guys slow down, or slow guys speed up.

Normally the testosterone (or whatever) kicks in and the newbie rider pushes too hard too soon. It's a mindset thing, there are those that see the challenge and say 'i can do that too', those that say 'thats cool, i'd like to be like that one day" and those that say "your fucken stupid whats wrong with *nanna-ing*".

IMO the latter two are the best way to think about it. I've been riding for 4 years now, but the way i see it i have only been 'riding' for a year (since i got the ZXR). And the fact that i took my time to get 'up to pace' has probably saved my ass a lot of the time. Also being mature about riding before you get on a bike will help save your ass - a lot people get onto a bike because they think it's cool, and that being the fastest on the road is the name of the game... and thats not mature. The reality is that biking can be a very dangerous thing, and without the proper skills it can lead to a lot of pain and financial loss.

I think that the 'learner rider days' are an awesome idea, and i also think that labelling rides at a certain pace will help to some degree too. But i think what we really need, as far as road riding is concerned is a state of mind that errs on the side of caution when it comes to riding at speed on the open road.

It's been said, if you really are the man then put the money into a race bike and win yourself a trophy... then you'll have the goods to back it up. Otherwise dont do it on the road, thats my turf, and i certainly dont wanna get taken out while you prove your worth to some 12yr old acne faced brat on an internet forum! :mellow:

Mrs Busa Pete
9th March 2006, 16:11
well said gareth

Sutage
9th March 2006, 16:41
kb is made up of people from every type of person where as other groups are more specific i guess?
on one ride there will be fast/slow/mediium/experienced/unexperienced
all and any of which can crash

terbang
9th March 2006, 16:48
On thing that amuses me is the term "Chicken strips" being often bounced around. I have ridden on tracks and shredded my tyres to the edge whilst grinding any thing that can touch (on me old Bandit & 1100's). However I rarely (if ever) use the full capacity of my tyres on the road and generally have a strip on each edge that I prefer to call survival strips or in other words I ride my bike to a much lesser capacity on the road to give me the "Fat" do deal with the day to day unpredicables that we get on every trip.

NhuanH
9th March 2006, 18:09
The next Coromandel Loop I did was the one somewhat organised by Jon (the American dude) however he was a "newbie" in regards to the route. So I think it was Nauha (spelling?) who took the lead and guided the group. Everyone seemed to stop at intersections and there was a wide variety of riders, the majority all going at their own pace. I enjoyed that ride more than any other ride I've been on so far.
Glad you enjoyed that ride. By the way, that must be the single most brutal mis-spelling of my name. Ever.

Back on topic, everyone is responsible for their own ride. Just respect tha Jandal and it shall respect you.

750Y
9th March 2006, 21:09
Glad you enjoyed that ride. By the way, that must be the single most brutal mis-spelling of my name. Ever.

lmao. i thought i was bad..

i never saw any crashes on the couple of kb rides i did...or with the kb-ers i've ridden with, but it's never good when people get hurt.

Karma
9th March 2006, 21:20
Two newbie rides, each with more than 40 people in attendance, no bins... why? because it wasn't a race.

Most of it is pride really... don't wanna get left behind... I had a near miss on my first coro loop when I was trying to keep pace with the group... then I realised that a newb on a 400cc bike wasn't gonna keep up with the likes of Juzzer or Yoshi for love nor money... so settled back and rode at my own pace.

I think perhaps another problem with group rides is focussing more on the rider in front of you then the road. I know I've done it myself that you kinda get locked into the rider in front, but if they take a corner sharper than you can handle, you get into problems.

justsomeguy
9th March 2006, 21:28
As Motu said it in one word: Testosterone.

------------------

:Offtopic: :Offtopic:

Glad you enjoyed that ride. By the way, that must be the single most brutal mis-spelling of my name. Ever.

Back on topic, everyone is responsible for their own ride. Just respect tha Jandal and it shall respect you.

Oi - you're an expensive bastard to be around - the bike ran into reserve and stalled at 182ks - the lowest ever I've seen it go, while trying to keep you within the horizon:ride:

Dafe
9th March 2006, 21:29
Here's my 10 cents worth.......

Pilot Powers are fantastic road holding tyres.... on the public roads.
I ran them on the racetrack and I cooked them after 8-9 laps around Manfield. They just lost their grip and it was bye bye bike.
Worst part was, there was no warning or feedback indicating the diminishing traction, the powers simply let go.
I previously ran BT014's, and I could feel them letting up after a prolonged period, great feedback tyre on the track.

So take it from me, if you run the Pilot Powers and you give them utter death on the track. Be cautious of the period you're running them hard for.
Could save you from making my mistake.

justsomeguy
9th March 2006, 21:30
I think perhaps another problem with group rides is focussing more on the rider in front of you then the road. I know I've done it myself that you kinda get locked into the rider in front, but if they take a corner sharper than you can handle, you get into problems.

I've run into grief doing the opposite.......:oi-grr:

Concentrating too much on the road and treating other riders like traffic.... Then the complaints of passing too close start.... :violin:

NhuanH
9th March 2006, 21:33
Oi - you're an expensive bastard to be around - the bike ran into reserve and stalled at 182ks - the lowest ever I've seen it go, while trying to keep you within the horizon:ride:
What are you doing you throttle jockey?? What's the tank size of an Arrh-Arrh? Even a brisk pace on the Ninja (I'm a nana) only needs 13.x litres Kopu>Kopu.

- anyway, didnt you fill at Whitianga?

justsomeguy
9th March 2006, 21:36
What are you doing you throttle jockey?? What's the tank size of an Arrh-Arrh?

- anyway, didnt you fill at Whitianga?

I had to live between 12-15k rpm to stay around.

Yup, filled up at Whitianga right to the top with a few drops overflowing through the overflow pipes....... the bike went from that stage to stalling until I switched it to reserve in 182ks...... 14 litre tank.

Now the middle of my rear tyre is starting to peal up after only 7.5K - and it's supposed to be a dual compound........ grrr..... hope to do it again with Zed and all this Sat - be great to see your sexy bike and ugly self again.

Zed
9th March 2006, 21:38
So judging by all the responses so far there are quite a number of variables that have possibly attributed to krashes on KB rides:

Testosterone
A mixture of different skill levels
Informal organisation/leadership
Inexperience/Immaturity
Mechanical failure
Lack of knowledge of the roads
Riding above your comfortable pace
Road racing
Bad luck
etcWell as for me, I'm not discouraged by krashes on KB rides and I will continue to participate and organise them from time to time as I see fit. There is a perception out there that I have come across talking to people (often non-KBers) that KB rides are dangerous and irresponsible, but I dismiss that as rumour only. Krashes are just a grim reality of motorcycling and can happen in any group situation, not just KB, but we hear about the ones on KB more frequently than anywhere else because of this public forum, and that needs to be remembered.

Keep the rubber side down and the shiney side up KBers! :ride:

Zed

justsomeguy
9th March 2006, 21:42
So judging by all the responses so far there are quite a number of variables that have possibly attributed to krashes on KB rides:

Testosterone
A mixture of different skill levels
Informal organisation/leadership
Inexperience/Immaturity
Mechanical failure
Lack of knowledge of the roads
Riding above your comfortable pace
Road racing
Bad luck
etcKeep the rubber side down and the shiney side up KBers! :ride:

Zed

Those would be my top three.

Oh and isn't it Crashes...... or is this another KB patented word??

Firefight
9th March 2006, 22:01
surprisingly Some of what gareth says is right, however there are other factors to think about.

I have spent a fair amount of time picking up OPBs off 22, I think about 13 in
the last 18 months and while some of these bins may have been related to
"tryingtokeepupitis), by far the majority of bins had some common denominators, that did not fit that group.

these were...


1) younger riders who normally only ride from home to Tech/varsity and back
home again.

2) most of these bins occurred on the way back after 4-6 hours of riding,
were perhaps fatigue and loss of concentration played a part in the bin.

3) nearly all occurred on corners

4) most were in the lower speed group, with min damage to bike and rider
(but of concern was the fact that they crossed to the centerline of road
before stopping and ran the risk of being hit by oncoming traffic.
In fact only 3 bins were high speed events, and all were by very
experienced riders.

I also have run rides for newer riders, but have favoured low publicity
ie pm or txt to arrange rides, this keeps numbers low and avoids the large crowds of no doubt well meaning helpers, who sometimes end up scaring or intimidating newer riders. On these training days we would also cover topics like rehydration, rest stops, and scene safety in the event of a bin,road side repairs(often with a un planned practical demo) and a bit off first aid.

Just lately there have been a couple of well prepared and run training rides, which seemed to get very good feed back, so good on you Weasel, and the other dude who was invloved in those rides.(sorry can,t think of your name atm)



Another controversial point that has been made was "Declaring the Pace", to me it's one of those you never please everyone things.

On our rides we always advise what the "pace" is going to be,, and yet even that has been the subject of some negative comment.


The reason "Fight Club " was formed was to provide rides for like minded riders, who rode at a similar pace, trusted each other, and enjoyed rides with little delay or fuss that some of the larger group rides often end up getting bogged down with. I guess this is the same sort of thing that Gareth was talking about in the second paragraph of his post.


One of the great things about kb is the fact that we are collectively trying to do someting about rider training, it would seem that we do care about our fellow riders, while we may have differing opinions about the best way to achive this, the important thing is that we are trying.


F/F

peripheral
9th March 2006, 22:03
My patchy comments after reading through this thread.

From my perspective, I know 2 people that ride bikes and haven't been on rides with either of them (in part due to location) so the only way I meet other people with an interest in riding bikes is by going on group rides or meeting people out on rides.

Seems like there's lots of mutters around at the moment (maybe because summer is coming to a close) about having to put up with slower riders etc. It'd be a shame to have all the rides turn into either closed rides or newbie rides.

I fall into the new to biking category but I'm not a fresh on the road newbie and can take care of myself if I get lost on a ride etc. At the end of the day I like everyone needs to be responsible for themselves and make up there mind whether they can handle the ride or whether they are too new and need to have someone help them out and ride with them. You can always turn back, as hard as that is to imagine. My first coro loop ride in a group was ok, because I'd done the loop before by myself, and the only part I hadn't done between bombay and miranda was helped out by riders (not the same rider every time) waiting at a couple of corners, which was nice but I would have found the way anyway. Also I am sensible enough to know that there's no way I'm going to keep up with the fast guys and that I should just settle into my own pace and catch up at the next stop. Common sense, something that's becoming less and less apparent in our society.

And you'll always get people pushing themselve trying to keep up with the guy infront, at all levels, that's how we learn isn't it by pushing our limits? They/we need to be sensible about it and listen to ourelves when we start having those moments when trying to keep up, after all we want to ride home don't we?

If we try and lump too much responsibility on the organiser about the outcome of the ride and whether or not there's bins, then no one will want to organise rides for fear of being "sued" or blamed. And remember if we start being too elitest then there'll be no new faces on rides.

$0.02

MacD
9th March 2006, 22:10
It's a choice Zed.

I chose to crash, I didn't realise it at the time, but mostly it is a choice.



I agree with CaN on this one. It may not be a conscious choice, but I believe if most people look at their crashes dispassionately they will be able to identify a choice they made that lead to the crash.

The question really is how do we help new riders avoid learning this the hard way?

Riding with a pillion certainly helps remind me that I am making decisions when riding that will affect not only me but also another person.

So I'm not the fastest rider these days, but at least I'm still riding.

peripheral
9th March 2006, 22:14
2) most of these bins occurred on the way back after 4-6 hours of riding,
were perhaps fatigue and loss of concentration played a part in the bin.


Interesting, is a very easy thing to do, I often think to myself on the way back from a ride, should I go the interesting route or the nice and relaxed route. Most of the time it's the relaxed route, if I've already had enough riding for the day, I figure there's alway tomorrow to tackle those roads again and often I want to go home and relax.

terbang
10th March 2006, 08:13
2) most of these bins occurred on the way back after 4-6 hours of riding,
were perhaps fatigue and loss of concentration played a part in the bin.


An interesting Human factor here that aircrews are staisticly (sp) likely to have an incident on the way home or on the last sector of a days flying. Fatigue is partly to blame however there is also a tendancy to relax or wind down as the end of the journey nears or the "were on the downhill run now" mentality which only compounds the effects of fatigue. Being aware of the problem combats it and, in the past when I flew long haul, I have often made mention of this statistic to other crew members on the last sector of 3 returning from Europe to keep us all focused on the job at hand.
I know that driving a motorbike and a plane are different basic skills but the human factor side of it remains much the same and aviation has spent a lot of money in this area that we as motorcyclists can benefit from.

buellbabe
10th March 2006, 08:22
Seems the general concensus is that each rider is responsible for their own ride. However when riding in a group there are so many other factors to consider and IMO theres alot of riders out there who could learn a thing or two about group riding. Aside from the obvious 'ride at ya own pace' you also have to show some courtesy to the bike in front of ya, like don't tailgate just cos you wanna get past, that can irritate and cause the rider in front to possibly go faster than they are comfortable with or take a dodgy line just cos they are feeling pressured. Then there is the fact that many people are reluctant to admit to themselves that they really aren't as good as they think they are. Ye Gads! I have witnessed this SO much during my years of group riding. A rider positions themselves in the fast pack and then ends up obstructing the following bikes cos he/she is riding wide, all over the road, not overtaking etc... This causes immense frustration...
If I am riding with a group of bikes I don't know I'll start out at the back and then gradually work my way forward thru the pack until I reach a pozzy/speed that feels good.
AND there is always the testosterone factor to consider... recently a friend did a KB ride and told me how he chose not to ride recklessy thru the traffic down State #1 and was taunted with "geez yr slow"... I rest my case.

Drunken Monkey
10th March 2006, 08:23
...I know that driving a motorbike and a plane are different basic skills but the human factor side of it remains much the same and aviation has spent a lot of money in this area that we as motorcyclists can benefit from.

I think you'll find basic the skills are exactly the same, which is why your information is so true => scanning the sky (or road), identifying landmarks/navigation, identifying hazards, checking instruments.

bugjuice
10th March 2006, 08:26
So judging by all the responses so far there are quite a number of variables that have possibly attributed to krashes on KB rides:

Bad luck
etc
yay - i vote those two..

terbang
10th March 2006, 08:46
I think you'll find basic the skills are exactly the same, which is why your information is so true => scanning the sky (or road), identifying landmarks/navigation, identifying hazards, checking instruments.

But lets face it Modern Bikes like modern airliners or anything rarely fail so the weakest link is the humans that drive them and there are 3 basic skills that we must develop (1) Handling skills (2) Mental skills (3) Self control skills.
I feel that a lot of the discussion on this thread relates to item 3 above..

As a point of interest I have been in Aviation for 27 years and around motorcycling for 31 and I have lost more friends to aviation accidents than motorcycles..! Does this mean I have no friends in the motorcycle world..?

terbang
10th March 2006, 09:04
Seems like there's lots of mutters around at the moment (maybe because summer is coming to a close) about having to put up with slower riders etc. It'd be a shame to have all the rides turn into either closed rides or newbie rides.


I couldn't agree more and if we want to have exclusive rides then form an exclusive club like the fight club or litre club but keep KB rides just that for all KBers. Let everyone be responsible for thier own actions with the route briefing ETC making the difference between a smoothe ride for everyone or a disorganized straggle.

Zed
10th March 2006, 09:12
...Aside from the obvious 'ride at ya own pace' you also have to show some courtesy to the bike in front of ya, like don't tailgate just cos you wanna get past, that can irritate and cause the rider in front to possibly go faster than they are comfortable with or take a dodgy line just cos they are feeling pressured....That includes tailgating cars - are you reading this JSG? :niceone:

Drunken Monkey
10th March 2006, 09:13
... if we want to have exclusive rides then form an exclusive club like the fight club or litre club but keep KB rides just that for all KBers. ...

Negative, just look at how many users there are on this site and how many different bikes and walks of life they come from. There's too many people to always have a 'general all riders, all bikes and all speeds welcome rides' all of the time. Have you ever organised one? Ask WhiteTrash about his big Easter ride (60+ impromptu riders showed up). They can be quite daunting for the organiser, who often ends up with the responsiblity/stress of regular head counts and the occasional pick-up call (not fun).
The forum, while attracting all types, is the perfect medium for a small number of geographically friendly, like-minded individuals to organise small rides.

Which raises another point. You know what twists my damn knickers? when you organise a ride for X riders at Y location for Z speeds and some friendless loser on the other side of the country who doesn't even have a bike ends up contributing more posts to the thread than the riders combined. :angry2:

terbang
10th March 2006, 10:44
The difference between an organised ride and a disorganised ride is the same as the difference between "Hey guys Im goin for a ride this sat anyone interested" to a well detailed, specified and planned group ride with specific goals. And that raises a good question about what KB rides are all about..?
Yup I know Zed I'm going back on what I have allready snarled at you over in a different forum. Can't even blame it on PMS so sorry I was wrong, gave it some more thought..

R6_kid
10th March 2006, 11:21
CaN and FireFight have bought up a few important points, most of which i put under the 'inexperience' category.

CaN said he 'chose' to crash, this wasnt so much due to inexperience, after talking to him about the situation he was either going to continue to take the corner and hit some loose gravel at speed, or wipe off as much speed as possible and hope for the best.
It doesnt take a physicist to see that he made the best decision he could at the time, which unfortunately resulted in a crash, albeit with less damage than the other option.

As Fireflight said, rehydration and frequent stops play a major role in a ride, also the state you are in when you start the ride.

When i crashed my R6 over coromandel the contributing factors were

Lack of sleep the previous night
no breakfast
didnt eat/drink at first stop
didnt turn back when i didnt feel good
let testosterone get the better of me in a 'chase' situation
didnt stop for a break


When it came to the point that was going to fast out of one corner to one that was a much slower corner i paniced(sp) and lock up the front and rear thinking i could stop in time. What i should have done was wipe the speed off and tried to take the corner (looking back i had the experience to do so).

What put me in the situation was the fact that i was showing off, it was my first ride with some good friends that hadnt seen me ride on my new bike so i was trying to prove my self in way, something i wouldnt normally do. The worst thing was that i organise the ride. I put myself in a position where i needed to rush home (to get to work of all things, what the fuck!!!) However pretty much all the decisions i made were affected by my state of situational awareness due to the reasons listed above.

The wierd thing for me is that it was a minor low side at 30kmh that has changed my mind set - being thrown into the path of oncoming traffic will stir you up a fair bit, trust me on this.

I have since decided to minimise the high pace riding i do on the road, not to say i wont do as much, but i wont do it as fast or as close to my limit. Instead i am willing to take a step back and wait for the next trackday to have a good fang on the bike. That way there is an ambo there ready and waiting if i fuck up, people are expecting you to pass them (they know its your responsibility not theirs) and all the traffic is moving in one direction.

I think this thread can offer a lot of good information and feedback on the way we organise our rides around this joint, but i would hate to see it turn negative at all... keep the good ideas coming, this thread is about learning, not burning :ar15:

bugjuice
10th March 2006, 11:40
some good points covered there Gareth. If any of those apply during a ride, slow down or think about giving up. Riding the loop is an intense ride, or any ride like that.. if you're not in the right mind space to start with, you're reducing the chances of a care-free enjoyable ride

Karma
10th March 2006, 12:19
There's too many people to always have a 'general all riders, all bikes and all speeds welcome rides' all of the time. Have you ever organised one? Ask WhiteTrash about his big Easter ride (60+ impromptu riders showed up). They can be quite daunting for the organiser, who often ends up with the responsiblity/stress of regular head counts and the occasional pick-up call (not fun).

Well different situation I know, but there was no way we were gonna managed to keep an exact head count with over 40 people running at different speeds on the newbie ride, so instead we break it down into groups.

Each group is responsible for keeping themselves together and knowing if anyone has dropped back / off...

This key skill I call... delegation.

Not always easy in practice obviously, but from personal experience there are always some on the larger rides that will stop to make sure everyone made it back ok, this is obviously a lot easier on the smaller rides, which seems to be what most of the experienced guys are favouring these days... I know I personally have been on a few rides that havn't been posted up, and these rides are a lot easier, you all know each other, and are confident in each others riding that you don't have to keep watching your mirrors to see if they're still there....

Gremlin
11th March 2006, 00:37
Just lately there have been a couple of well prepared and run training rides, which seemed to get very good feed back, so good on you Weasel, and the other dude who was invloved in those rides.(sorry can,t think of your name atm)
Me?? :doobey:

As Weasel has said, we have now run 2 big-ish successful rides, and not close to boasting, you need to control the ride a bit. Our rides are for learners, if you are here just for the ride, stay clear of our groups... as it was, the second ride was worse, because loose people (not part of a group) overtook a learner group, and the leader got confused as to who was who. Several other points were learned as well, hopefully those rides will continue to improve.

Part of the reason we started the rides was because how easy it is to die on the roads. Most of us, when learning, fucked up a corner, applied front brake, and ran into the oncoming... get unlucky, and you have a head-on (possibly what happened with Koro). Most of us were lucky, and got away with it. Some don't.

If we can help the learners in any way, then I'm happy to do it (although I can't instruct, I'm basically a learner too). Learners are often scared to get out onto the road to practise, which they need to do. We try to offer a as-practically-safe environment as possible, without removing the real world hazards.

For me, 2 main causes of crashes:
- inattention - how I crashed twice, not paying 100% attention to my riding
- trying to keep up - many newbies try to keep up, when they obviously lack the riding skills to avoid the same problems the experienced riders encounter

I have been called slow, but I don't care. If I thoroughly enjoy myself, and return home the same as I left, then it was a successful ride...

FROSTY
15th March 2006, 07:23
I think the most importand advise i was given was ."if it starts to feel out of control.SLOW DOWN Pretty simple really.
From what i've seen a fair few Kb crashes were "an acccident waiting to happen' . If the rider concerned had just backed it all off a bit till they were back in their comfort zone--all would have been good.

Motu
15th March 2006, 08:20
I'm with Frosty - if you are riding within your comfort zone there is practicaly no reason to crash,it will be something completely unexpected...and hopefully you will have enough space up your sleeve to master the situation...that's the learning process.Riders comfort zones are all different,and will change with conditions,and bikes etc.

I seldom ride in groups,and find it frustrating because my pace is so different to others.The usual senario is I'll hang back with the last group...come the first straight roads and they fly past me like I'm on a step through,but at the first set of corners they start to trip me up and I despatch them...I may run into the next group and start cutting through them...but about halfway through I say ''stuff this!'' and pull over.Then the tail end Charlie stops to see if something is wrong and I have to get moving and start the process off all over again.If the group spreads out I can ride by myself and at my own pace - so what's the point in riding with others?

In january XTC organised a gravel road ride,he did a good job with maps etc,we all knew where we were going...sorta,and our skills weren't too far apart.On unmarked totaly dangerous roads we kept up a good pace,and no one came to grief - we were still childish enough to pit our skills against each other...but mature enough not to get carried away at the same time.

idb
15th March 2006, 08:36
I still think the correlation between big-noting on this forum and bike-rider separation would be worth investigating.

Note that the SI KB members are always humble, respectful and sensible on this site and they don't seem to can?

Hmmmmmmmmm!!!

Karma
15th March 2006, 11:33
Well I prefer to ride with a clear bit of road, so I can understand what Motu is saying...

But for me an organised ride is about more than just riding together, it's also the chance of stopping, having a ciggie and talking shit for a bit with some other bikers...

And lets not forget that if you come to greif on a group ride, there's usually someone a minute or two down the road that'll come and pick you up and brush you down...

beyond
15th March 2006, 13:32
No matter how old you are or how experienced, the fact should always remain in your mind, that we are all still learning and therefore, in that respect will always be a newbie.

When riding alone, accidents are less likely to occur as you are riding to your own pace for the conditions and Tetesterone is wasted if no one is watching.
Male riders still suffer the age old hunter gatherer affliction, which females are less likely to suffer from.

In the absence of hunting the wild animal and bringing home the kill to bring Kudos to yourself and the tribe, we use fast, powerful machines and see who can ride the fastest and the hardest. Deep down, I sincerely believe if we were all honest, this is the biggest problem. Now the solution is to try and make out you are still riding on your own and to your own abilities.

The biggest cause of group accidents would be a result of normally two things.
1. When leading and riders are behind you, many people speed up as they think they may be riding too slow and don't want to be seen as a "slowey"
They then begin to outride there abilities and do dumb things and make mistakes or ride to hot for a corner.
99% of the time, the people following are doing just that. Not pushing you or they would just pass but are just following as they prefer to not be the front rider.

2. When following, if the front runner is fast and rides hard, again, to impress, those following speed up to keep with "the man". Again, they out ride their abilities and make mistakes and/or run off corners etc.

No matter how fast and how good you are, someone is always better.
There are some awfully fast riders around who ride what many would consider a crap machine, but they can wipe the floor with many modern day sports riders and the opposite is true as well.

The good things about KB is that anyone can come for a ride and in a large group you find people who ride similar to you. By the time you stop for lunch, there might be three or four smaller groups, each riding to their own ability but we can still meet up and talk the talk. If things get too structured, people will just stop organising rides and that would be shame.

Brett
18th March 2006, 19:46
The amount of crashes happening to people here is certainly increaasing...or so it seems. Maybe just due to more newbies due to the petrol prices??/ I dunno. Bit of a worry tho.

Swoop
2nd April 2006, 17:06
An interesting comment in a bikeshop prior to a ride "going on a kiwibiker ride?" "Nope - just a few guys". reply (paraphrased) = "much safer then"

sAsLEX
2nd April 2006, 17:17
The amount of crashes happening to people here is certainly increaasing...or so it seems. Maybe just due to more newbies due to the petrol prices??/ I dunno. Bit of a worry tho.

its actually due to the eclipse

justsomeguy
2nd April 2006, 17:28
I think the most importand advise i was given was ."if it starts to feel out of control.SLOW DOWN Pretty simple really.
From what i've seen a fair few Kb crashes were "an acccident waiting to happen' . If the rider concerned had just backed it all off a bit till they were back in their comfort zone--all would have been good.

This may or may not be related to what you posted Frosty. But in my case (and I only know about me - not commenting on anyone else) .....

I still think - "Brake" - when I go in too hot, instead of thinking "Lean more"

I'm pretty good at braking in corners as I usually fark up corners 10 times a minute, but it really slows me down and you know how much that pisses me off, what with me being so slow to begin with ...:weird:

Any tips that helped you think lean more instead of brake, back when you were starting out or when you instruct riders, racers?

The_Dover
2nd April 2006, 18:22
I would like to clear testosterone and the like from any of my crashes. I would like to point out that these were all due to alcohol, drugs and erm, mechnical failure.

I am in no way irresponsible or criminal. It is a disease.

Krusti
2nd April 2006, 21:46
The times when I feel I would most likely be to crash are when...and most of you have felt this...you feel yourself lose concentration. Usually a small oops is enough to alert you to this. SLOW DOWN. We all know when we are on our game.

One small oops should be enough to alert you to back off.

I have had whole days when I have not been able to get into the zone or find myself daydreaming/mind wondering. This is not a good time to push ones limits.

Age has also taught me not to care what any one else thinks about my speed etc.At least I can still ride. Maybe faster than most but not as quick as a few, or is it the other way around?

Speed is not the only judge of a good rider!

We all need to take responsibility for each other if we elect to be part of a forum/group like this. As a whole I am very impressed by the concern and big brother attitude of most here but feel there are a few who care only about their own ego stroking.

My 2 cents worth.......

moko
3rd April 2006, 07:09
I think Motu hit it on the head. There's a lot of posturing goes on in KB (online) and without doing all those fun statistical analyses... there seems to be a reasonably strong correlation between the people getting in trouble with their mouths (in here), and those getting in trouble on the road.

It's a maturity thing - I've noticed it affect my riding as I've aged...
........I think there is basis to the "KB carnage" theory. It's something we need to look out for... I'm not a fan of funerals.........It scares me how a couple of folks in here remain "bulletproof", and I'll bet they've been a split second from death/injury - either to themselves or others........You don't have to ride like a nana... but realise you ain't Rossi either...
MDU

Agree with everything you`ve written.Amazes to see on here people telling of spills as if they`re some kind of macho "badge of courage" when us old geezers wonder why someone`s bragging about their lack of riding skills.Plenty of track days advertised on here,that`s the place to do your Rossi impression and if you drop your bike it`s not going to go under a car coming the other way.I`ve been riding for 30 years,lost my best mate in a bike crash,my sister lost a boyfriend and I`ve known too many others that have been killed or maimed,you need to concentrate 100% on the road,not on what your mate`s doing or trying to prove yourself in some way to boost your image and for every one who thinks your cunning overtaking manouvere at high speed is cool there are more looking on in horror and thinking you`re a total wanker.Forget the old pop songs,killing yourself on a bike isnt cool,you shit yourself and your Mum cries at your funeral.O.k. so you pick yourself up and stagger off like John Wayne...this time,next time might be the false leg or the colostomy bag and they`re not exactly chick-pullers are they?Bikers are mostly older in the U.K. so the testosterone thing isnt quite so prevalent,still see plenty of guys doing stupid things though.On the whole though anyone riding dangerously on an organised run would get told to piss off and dont bother coming back.
What some bike clubs do here is have a guy who`s the agreed leader,he sets the pace,which is always legal-ish,everone rides at their own pace and there`s an experienced guy takes up the rear to assist anyone he sees having problems and to make sure no-one feels like they`re left behind and maybe goes quicker than they`re comfortable with to try and catch up.Those are the rules,you dont like it you just clear off on your own but all the stops e.t.c. are dictated by the guy in front so disappear over the horizon and you`re not on the rideout as such anyway.Seems to work and a lot of guys here are more interested in improving their riding skills rather than racing each other,ride smoothly and learn things like correct road position,cornering lines,reading the road e.t.c. and you`ll get places just as quick as some tear-arse who can only safely ride quickly on the straight bits.
I`ll only ride with guys I trust,if someone`s faster than me on the road I let them pass,maybe I`ll keep up for a while or just watch them head off depending on my mood but what I`ll never do is take any risks to take part in some kind of pissing contest just because someone`s overtaken me.All the hoons are doing is giving people who`d love to ban bikes,or at least clamp down mighty hard,a great excuse to do so.

Lazy7
3rd April 2006, 07:45
i dont get why people crash when out riding.

i could understand it in inner-city traffic around town. but out in the country side, with the road basically to yourself?

i rode down to new plymouth this weekend and back again.

i took the time to actually *think* about my riding. entering corners i was actively thinking about speed, gear, lean angle, line. I was trying to upskill myself. i was trying things like, what happens when i do this with the bars, what happens if i shift my weight, what happens when i apply the throttle at this part of the corner etc etc.

by the end of the ride i was definitely riding better but i found something quite interesting out. 55km and 65km corners were now boring at the legal limit. 75km and 85km corners i didn't even think about slowing down for.

so

I figure you would need to be going absolutely silly speeds to out do a typical sportsbike around a typical corner.

so if you crash, on the open road, it was either

oil/water/gravel/slippery road surface.
or
your own stupid fault.

:innocent:

Lazy7
3rd April 2006, 07:49
I still think - "Brake" - when I go in too hot, instead of thinking "Lean more"

Any tips that helped you think lean more instead of brake, back when you were starting out or when you instruct riders, racers?

ride more and go a little bit more each time. if your like me, you're probably thinking your millimetres away from dragging a footpeg when in actual fact your miles off the deck.

i guess its just faith and trust in the machine underneath you, trust in the tyres, a good view of whats coming up ahead of you so you have trust in the road surface - and then just trust in yourself.

moko
3rd April 2006, 19:18
i took the time to actually *think* about my riding. entering corners i was actively thinking about speed, gear, lean angle, line. I was trying to upskill myself. i was trying things like, what happens when i do this with the bars, what happens if i shift my weight, what happens when i apply the throttle at this part of the corner etc etc....................I figure you would need to be going absolutely silly speeds to out do a typical sportsbike around a typical corner.

so if you crash, on the open road, it was either

oil/water/gravel/slippery road surface.
or
your own stupid fault.

:innocent:

Exactly my point,and you get so much more out of your riding,soon it`ll become second nature,couple more tips for you.Keep your eyes on where you want to go cos that`s where the bike will be headed,logical when you think about it and position yourself properly while cornering.Takes a bit of practice but again you`ll do it without thinking pretty soon,you go to the right of your lane when at the apex of left-hand bends and to the left hand side when taking a right hand bend,that`ll give you the best view ahead.taught in advanced riding lessons here and used by the Police.Dont know if you can get the Brit Police riding manual in N.Z.,"Roadcraft",it`s a bit dry but you`ll learn loads from it.
As for comment on slippery stuff and bad road surfaces,well sometimes for sure you hit a patch of this stuff and you fall off but a lot of the time you should see it in plenty of time,back to observation again,if you see roadworks there`s going to be crap on the road for possibly a few k`s,if you see frost on the grass the roads will be icy as well,an open gate a good chance something is going to come out of it,windscreen wipers going on cars coming the other way mean you`re heading into rain and they`ll be giving the screen a final wipe,or even too thick to turn the things off.If you`re not sure slow down anyway,better to be wary going round a corner and finding that the sprinkling of gravel you`ve seen was no more than that than to ignore it and fly round the corner only to find the rest of the load the truck was losing in a bloody great heap in front of you.Proper positioning would also give you a far greater chance in a situation like that as you`d stand a far better chance of seeing it before it was too late.

texmo
3rd April 2006, 19:44
Most of you guys dont ride hard you can tell by the way you post, when you have a bit of rubber the size of a 10c or 5c peice holding you on the ground at what ever speed its easy to lose it!

Kornholio
3rd April 2006, 19:46
People just don't wanna look like pussies infront of everyone else and try to keep up with the front runners even though its beyond their abilities and just get themselves in trouble.

You just have to accept that there are some naturally fast riders and experienced fast riders and then there aren't. If you aren't that fast and or lack the confidence to keep up with the faster guys then don't do it.

Never try to outride your ability (unless on a race track - where its safer and its the best place to push your ability to improve on it), its only a matter of time before it will end in tears.

What he said....THE END :hitcher:

Qkkid
3rd April 2006, 23:17
I would like to clear testosterone and the like from any of my crashes. I would like to point out that these were all due to alcohol, drugs and erm, mechnical failure.

I am in no way irresponsible or criminal. It is a disease.
:shake: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :moon: