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Hitcher
13th April 2004, 10:24
The number of people dying on New Zealand's roads over Easter has
risen for the first time in five years.

Four people - three motorists and one pedestrian - died in road
accidents between Thursday night and 6am on Tuesday morning, when the
long weekend period officially ended.

Until now, the Easter road toll has been slowly dropping since 1999,
when there were seven deaths.

Inspector John Kelly says it is disappointing the toll is one higher
than the past two years.

What a nonsense these sorts of stats are! Ballpark, about one person a day dies as a result of motor vehicle accidents. On this basis, the "holiday road toll" for Easter should be (wait for it) four! (plus or minus).

It is also interesting to note that there is no published "holiday influenza toll", when statistically a similar number of people (four) would have died this weekend from flu-related causes.

vifferman
13th April 2004, 11:23
Yeah, but of course you know that old adage by Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain):

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

It sounds as though you are just as infuriated by the inane and pathetic misuse of statistics as I am.

DEATH_INC.
13th April 2004, 12:26
Yeah, but of course you know that old adage by Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain):

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

It sounds as though you are just as infuriated by the inane and pathetic misuse of statistics as I am.
:2thumbsup
You guys are onto it,if four people died in 1 crash you'd double the road toll.....then we'd get another round of new speed camera's ect and they'd gloat about how it reduced the toll next hols.....
What a f****n joke :bleh:

k14
13th April 2004, 12:40
Surprised the headlines in todays newspaper weren't "Police Startled By 33% Rise In Easter Road Toll" and the article would go on to say that speeding was the cause of all of the crashes and a 200% increase in speed cameras is the solution along with double demerits on holiday weekends along with decreasing the tolerance to 2kph over the limit, wouldn't surprise me quite frankly, this is just a joke.

They didnt say that this is very good, cause it is. If the rest of the year was like this the road toll would be 365, which is alot lower than the current one, they don't say that.

SPman
13th April 2004, 12:50
They didnt say that this is very good, cause it is. If the rest of the year was like this the road toll would be 365, which is alot lower than the current one,
they don't say that. Nearly always negative, scaremongering shit! (bit like this site, sometimes :rolleyes: )
The worry is, the general populace buy into it!!!:argh:

scumdog
13th April 2004, 13:21
Surprised the headlines in todays newspaper weren't "Police Startled By 33% Rise In Easter Road Toll" and the article would go on to say that speeding was the cause of all of the crashes and a 200% increase in speed cameras is the solution along with double demerits on holiday weekends along with decreasing the tolerance to 2kph over the limit, wouldn't surprise me quite frankly, this is just a joke.

They didnt say that this is very good, cause it is. If the rest of the year was like this the road toll would be 365, which is alot lower than the current one, they don't say that.

Makes you wonder who is doing the propaganda, the media or LTSA?
The media don't hold back at "enhancing" or dramatising events or incidents to make them more lurid than reality - sells newspapers ya know :blah:

Lou Girardin
13th April 2004, 20:53
I burst into print again when I saw that comment from John Kelly. (Who I did MOT training with) I drove to Wellington and return at Easter, saw lots of camera vans and a few HP cars, all on SH1. But none of them were around when a moron decided to pass me and two other cars on a blind S bend nor did they see the 4WD drivers that couldn't stay on their side of the road in the twisties. I probably saw 3 or 4 very close calls, but none of them were speeding.
The wonder was that only 4 died.
Lou

spudchucka
14th April 2004, 15:21
I burst into print again when I saw that comment from John Kelly. (Who I did MOT training with) I drove to Wellington and return at Easter, saw lots of camera vans and a few HP cars, all on SH1. But none of them were around when a moron decided to pass me and two other cars on a blind S bend nor did they see the 4WD drivers that couldn't stay on their side of the road in the twisties. I probably saw 3 or 4 very close calls, but none of them were speeding.
The wonder was that only 4 died.
Lou
Did you make a complaint about the bad driving? The cops can't be everywhere and they rely on receiving information from the public to apprehend dangerous drivers.

Why don't you start reporting bad driving to the authorities instead of writing letters to newspapers.

Wenier
14th April 2004, 16:58
Speed is jus a factor of some crashes not all you could say 50kph is speed because your not stopped are ya. They need to think about it and focus on the drivers skill not anything else because it is always gonna be driver error that has causes the crash!

F5 Dave
14th April 2004, 17:06
Well it’s pretty dangerous out there. I’m just glad I’m not a participant of pretty much the most deadly sport in NZ.

Lawn Bowls. :cool:

The statistics prove it. Lets not view any other contributing factors in (like the average age of participants) & tax the hell out of these reckless sports people.
:bash:

Big Dog
14th April 2004, 17:28
Well it’s pretty dangerous out there. I’m just glad I’m not a participant of pretty much the most deadly sport in NZ.

Lawn Bowls. :cool:

The statistics prove it. Lets not view any other contributing factors in (like the average age of participants) & tax the hell out of these reckless sports people.
:bash:
When I was selling life insurance in 95 it was a commonly acknowledged that it was statistically the most dangerous job in the world.

Contributing factors.
Relatively small data pool (less insurance salesmen than police officers).
Average age was 60 years old.
and a convention had been involved in a terrorist incident.

Carreer Fatality Risk is measured by number in profession at the time of their death/the the number in the proffession. Nature of death, and external factors are not taken into consideration, not even wether you were at work or not.

But Premiums were highest for insurance salesman for the following five years as carreer fatality risk is only reassesed every five years.


If your quote for life insurance seems inordinately high ask to hear the stats!

James Deuce
14th April 2004, 20:31
Did you make a complaint about the bad driving? The cops can't be everywhere and they rely on receiving information from the public to apprehend dangerous drivers.

Why don't you start reporting bad driving to the authorities instead of writing letters to newspapers.

Its a nice concept, but the police won't do anything about it, nor will they follow up a written complaint on the correct form.

I've *555ed twice, asked for the form and filled it in and sent it off. Repeated requests for action got no reply.

One was for a car filled with teenagers who changed into my lane while I was along side and slightly ahead of them, travelling Nth on the Wellington motorway on the flat just past the Aotea Quay on ramp. I was in the car and a bit hemmed in. All I could do was brake and hit the horn. The other was for a dickhead reversing a Pajero back down the Aotea on ramp in peak home time traffic.

spudchucka
14th April 2004, 22:47
Its a nice concept, but the police won't do anything about it, nor will they follow up a written complaint on the correct form.

I've *555ed twice, asked for the form and filled it in and sent it off. Repeated requests for action got no reply.

One was for a car filled with teenagers who changed into my lane while I was along side and slightly ahead of them, travelling Nth on the Wellington motorway on the flat just past the Aotea Quay on ramp. I was in the car and a bit hemmed in. All I could do was brake and hit the horn. The other was for a dickhead reversing a Pajero back down the Aotea on ramp in peak home time traffic.
I can't say what happens in other areas but I've seen heaps of traffic complaint forms going through for investigation, dozens every week. They can be a pain in the butt because the general public don't always understand the detail of information required but in my experience all the legit complaints get followed up and the offenders dealt with. It's still worthwhile making complaints in my opinion and there is a better chance of getting something done than just whinging to the editor of a newspaper.

shafty
14th April 2004, 23:04
I'm with Hitcher on this one. How many people are on the road at some stage on Easter Weekend? 500,000? Statisically, someone is going to die of a bad fart backfiring, surely?

I truly do feel that the Cops are having heat applied to stop and fine more people. I have been a 'Travelling Sales Person" since Lasers were the latest Rep cars and have had only 1 ticket (until last month) in that time, by choosing carefully where I speed. Don't get me wrong - I fang it in the XT 'Coon, but roads like the one from Te Aroha via Manawaru to the Kaimais's has been sacred for years;
Went thru there the other week to see 2 cops stopping folk for WOF and Rego checks in the 50 K/PH zone, then find another cop hiding in long grass with a Radar 5 k's down the road!!

Get over it.

I know we all think we're great Riders/Drivers but I doubt any injury :( accidents have occurred on the Manawaru road in the last 15 years!

scumdog
14th April 2004, 23:51
Did you make a complaint about the bad driving? The cops can't be everywhere and they rely on receiving information from the public to apprehend dangerous drivers.

Why don't you start reporting bad driving to the authorities instead of writing letters to newspapers.

Damn tooting right!!!! If every dickhead driver thought he had to watch himself ALL the time and not just when cops are around he might just sit up and take notice (if he had a brain he would - but thats another issue)
I have known of quite a few successful complaints, including one of mine (bitch went not guilty but lost in court, nyah!).

Just because EVERY complaint you make doesn't hit pay-dirt doesn't mean don't bother, eventually if the bad driver gets enough tickets his licence could be pulled. (it's not just speeding that gets demerit points) :Police:

Lou Girardin
15th April 2004, 06:55
Did you make a complaint about the bad driving? The cops can't be everywhere and they rely on receiving information from the public to apprehend dangerous drivers.

Why don't you start reporting bad driving to the authorities instead of writing letters to newspapers.

I've done that a few times in the past years, even when driver testing. After several 'it's your word (and witnesses) against theirs' replies. I've given it up as a lost cause.
Public exposure is always best.
Lou

James Deuce
15th April 2004, 07:06
I can't say what happens in other areas but I've seen heaps of traffic complaint forms going through for investigation, dozens every week. They can be a pain in the butt because the general public don't always understand the detail of information required but in my experience all the legit complaints get followed up and the offenders dealt with. It's still worthwhile making complaints in my opinion and there is a better chance of getting something done than just whinging to the editor of a newspaper.

FFS I can't win can I? If I bitch here to "mates", I'm whining, if people write to the newspaper you're whinging, but its OK for the police to waste my time by not following up on two complaints that could've killed me? I provided Vehicle type, colour, in one case year of manufacture, date, time, location with diagram, rego, and descriptions of the drivers. All as required on the form. It takes you 30 minutes to double check and fill it all out, and in my opinion were actions that required some form of prosecution. I was asked if I would be willing to go to court to give evidence and in both cases said yes. You can stick up for the process all you like but it doesn't work, in just the same way that turning up 4 days after a burglary doesn't work.

spudchucka
15th April 2004, 09:45
FFS I can't win can I? If I bitch here to "mates", I'm whining, if people write to the newspaper you're whinging, but its OK for the police to waste my time by not following up on two complaints that could've killed me? I provided Vehicle type, colour, in one case year of manufacture, date, time, location with diagram, rego, and descriptions of the drivers. All as required on the form. It takes you 30 minutes to double check and fill it all out, and in my opinion were actions that required some form of prosecution. I was asked if I would be willing to go to court to give evidence and in both cases said yes. You can stick up for the process all you like but it doesn't work, in just the same way that turning up 4 days after a burglary doesn't work.
I,m not saying the processes are perfect. I'm saying don't give up because of previous dissapointments. The whinging to newspapers comment wasn't directed at you.

James Deuce
15th April 2004, 10:54
I,m not saying the processes are perfect. I'm saying don't give up because of previous dissapointments. The whinging to newspapers comment wasn't directed at you.

I know it wasn't, its just that that appears to be the only outlet for justified rage at some moron trying to kill you.

From the process perspective I work in a process driven industry and if a process doesn't work, people won't use it. Its human nature and there is no point trying to address it by getting more commitment from the participants. If the process doesn't work once, people assume that you are either uninterested or incompetent.

F5 Dave
15th April 2004, 11:06
‘. . .either uninterested or incompetent’

in 4 words you’ve just summed up the Police Farce.

What’s that? Oh we seem to have lost the file. . . oh no he’s on leave now so we can’t do anything about it till then. . [insert usual inept dealings with the Police].

& that’s just the ones who are straight. :angry2:



Hey look at this little ranting guy! he’s got a huge repertoire.

spudchucka
15th April 2004, 11:24
‘. . .either uninterested or incompetent’

in 4 words you’ve just summed up the Police Farce.

What’s that? Oh we seem to have lost the file. . . oh no he’s on leave now so we can’t do anything about it till then. . [insert usual inept dealings with the Police].

& that’s just the ones who are straight. :angry2:



Hey look at this little ranting guy! he’s got a huge repertoire.
You should get to know Lou, you'd be best buddies.

scumdog
15th April 2004, 11:29
‘. . .either uninterested or incompetent’

in 4 words you’ve just summed up the Police Farce.

What’s that? Oh we seem to have lost the file. . . oh no he’s on leave now so we can’t do anything about it till then. . [insert usual inept dealings with the Police].

& that’s just the ones who are straight. :angry2:



Hey look at this little ranting guy! he’s got a huge repertoire.

Police are base on a cross section of the community, heaven help us if that cross section happens to be you :disapint:

Hitcher
15th April 2004, 11:36
I guess half of the population of New Zealand has below average intelligence, so that should come as no surprise...

F5 Dave
15th April 2004, 11:36
No the cross section is people who can handle doing a crappy job under-resourced in difficult circumstances for little money.

People who you would like to be cops would never apply or don’t last. The others stay & either become demoralised, misguided or evil.

Try getting a bike stolen or a house broken into & see how keen you are about the state of play.

spudchucka
15th April 2004, 11:52
No the cross section is people who can handle doing a crappy job under-resourced in difficult circumstances for little money.

People who you would like to be cops would never apply or don’t last. The others stay & either become demoralised, misguided or evil.

Try getting a bike stolen or a house broken into & see how keen you are about the state of play.
Actually the police force is an organisation that depends totally on the good will of its staff to function anywhere near efficently. No one joins up for the money because they are all reasonably smart and have done the maths before they apply. The majority of the people in the police do the job because they believe the work they do can make a difference. Theres always the bad apples that shouldn't be there but you get that in all walks of life.

Sure, cops become demoralised and cynical over time but evil, come on, that is totally wrong.

F5 Dave
15th April 2004, 12:05
Well the evil ones are in the papers at present so that is obviously the opposite of totally wrong.

No I don’t think it is a large proportion. But I do know people who have left due to the culture.

As far as misguided; a friend who was looking at joining went on observation. They pulled over & breath tested & failed a driver. OK good job I applaud.

But when back at the station they were not near over the limit when tested there, they let her go with a warning. The breath wand thingies get contaminated or uncalibrated apparently.

So friend says ‘So we get a new breath test thingy?’

Why? Was the response. :thud:

spudchucka
15th April 2004, 12:15
Well the evil ones are in the papers at present so that is obviously the opposite of totally wrong.

No I don’t think it is a large proportion. But I do know people who have left due to the culture.

As far as misguided; a friend who was looking at joining went on observation. They pulled over & breath tested & failed a driver. OK good job I applaud.

But when back at the station they were not near over the limit when tested there, they let her go with a warning. The breath wand thingies get contaminated or uncalibrated apparently.

So friend says ‘So we get a new breath test thingy?’

Why? Was the response. :thud:
The road side breath testing equipment is an indicator only, not a conclusive test. They only give an indication as to the level of alcohol and they can sometimes give inaccurate readings depending on how long it was since the last drink, skull a double bourbon and then blow in the bag or electronic tester and it will say you are over, wait 20 minutes and it probably wont even register. Also the electronic testers can be set off by cigarette smoke, strong aftershave, mouth wash etc, thats why they are an indicator only, not an evidential test.

As for the evil officers you mention I wont comment because that matter is under investigation, other than to say that you are talking about 3 or 4 men, not the entire police force, so put it in perspective.

Big Dog
15th April 2004, 17:17
I did the 555 thing twice once I followed an obviously drunk driver ( i saw him swigging from a bottle of Jack as he passed me) for 2 hours giving a running commentary to the operator. I became doubley sus when they changed cars and went back the way they came.

Turned out they were on the run from a armed holdup earlier... at a liquor store..... where they only took whiskey & one packet of cigarettes.

Got a pretty letter three months later advising me they got 6 (out in three was the prediction) years.


The other was after witnessing a particularly dangerous pasing maneuvre that caused an accident that the offender was not even involved in.

I didn't get the plate but reported it anyway as it had somewhat distinctive sign writing on the red ute and trailer. Wee tip when doing stupid things on the road don't do them in a vehicle that says team ****** while on the way back from cemetery cuircuit.

3 years passed no news, completly forgot about it. Changed my address on my license when I upgraded it. got another letter telling me they had pleaded to Dangerous causing injury, and pleaded not guilty to fleeing the scene on the grounds that they had not known there was an accident.

Oops I hope team ****** is either not on this forum or has forgiven me.

The system works, at least it has for me. I don't do it anymore now that the it costs money (even though they deduct it of your next bill if the get to prosecute or warn the offender), its the pricipal, why should I pay to do my civic duty?

Ms Piggy
15th April 2004, 17:44
Well I'll let you all know how I get on b/c I called up about a guy who ran a very red light on that intersection of John St, Adelaide Rd & Riddiford St and just about ran me down. :bash: I was a pedestrian crossing on Adelaide Rd and the buzzer had gone I had stepped out onto the road & had to step back b/c of the crazy driver!! :ar15: If there's one thing that gets me hot under the collar it's ALL the Wellington drivers who run red lights! :finger:

Hey Big Dog - do you mean the *555 number costs money?

Big Dog
15th April 2004, 17:56
Hey Big Dog - do you mean the *555 number costs money?
The third time I called it it was about a woman meditating on the median barrier (well sitting cross legged looking panic stricken). A police car was dispatched to pick her up, turns out (got a call from the patrol car) her husband had pulled up the hand brake and hold her get out and walk as he was sick of her back seat driving (fair warning naggers :shutup: ).

My phone bill showed a charge for three minutes at $1.99, then a reversal three days later. When I called to question it they said they were overloaded with claims about "a blue car" that they now charge $1.99 pm unless 70% of a complaint can be filled in (which must include either a complete plate or a partial and model and colour). If at a later date they are able to charge or issue a warning to the offender this is refunded, in the form of a credit.

I don't know what happened to the husband as they did not need my testimony once they had rescued her.

Big Dog
15th April 2004, 18:01
Hey Big Dog - do you mean the *555 number costs money?
Let us know how you get on as my information is three years old. I can't afford two bucks a minute average call 15 mins. :scooter:

Ms Piggy
15th April 2004, 18:08
Let us know how you get on as my information is three years old. I can't afford two bucks a minute average call 15 mins. :scooter:
I didn't actually use the *555 b/c I didn't know it existed until I called the local Police Station in Wgtn, glad I didn't if it costs that much. :shit: They're sending me out forms to fill out as well.

Big Dog
15th April 2004, 18:11
I didn't actually use the *555 b/c I didn't know it existed until I called the local Police Station in Wgtn, glad I didn't if it costs that much. :shit: They're sending me out forms to fill out as well.
If it is so urgent that it can't wait till I get home I use 111. The operator doesn't mind unless they already have a crisis.

Lou Girardin
15th April 2004, 18:42
A recent survey of public confidence in the Police showed that 66% of those surveyed have confidence in them.
This is the lowest rating I've seen, even lower than after the '81 Springbok tour.
Instead of the police hierachy congratulating themselves, they should be very worried. They might realise somethings wrong when it reaches 30%.
Coincidentily, the 33% that have no confidence in our Police is almost the exact number of people that received speeding tickets last year.

spudchucka
15th April 2004, 20:23
A recent survey of public confidence in the Police showed that 66% of those surveyed have confidence in them.
This is the lowest rating I've seen, even lower than after the '81 Springbok tour.
Instead of the police hierachy congratulating themselves, they should be very worried. They might realise somethings wrong when it reaches 30%.
Coincidentily, the 33% that have no confidence in our Police is almost the exact number of people that received speeding tickets last year.
So it must be the same 33% that keep getting the same speeding tickets every year, bloody slow learners aren't they.

Morepower
15th April 2004, 22:44
Well the evil ones are in the papers at present so that is obviously the opposite of totally wrong.

No I don’t think it is a large proportion. But I do know people who have left due to the culture.

As far as misguided; a friend who was looking at joining went on observation. They pulled over & breath tested & failed a driver. OK good job I applaud.

But when back at the station they were not near over the limit when tested there, they let her go with a warning. The breath wand thingies get contaminated or uncalibrated apparently.

So friend says ‘So we get a new breath test thingy?’

Why? Was the response. :thud:

Dont tell me you believe what is written in the papers , or on the news , they should title it as based on true stories ( about 10% ).

:laugh:

discodan
19th April 2004, 00:09
Well I have virtually no respect for the police. They have never helped me, only fleeced me out of money. I too hate Wellington drivers who run red lights as I was hit by one but he is still on the road, hasnt been to court, infact the police dont even know where he lives now. That was over 6 monthes ago. And now my mate has a very similar accident and the culpret is going to court less than a month later. I have repeatably naggeg the police in welly but they have done nothing. It's like when I do somthing bad they come down on me with full force but I somthing happens to me its too bad. :brick:

DEATH_INC.
19th April 2004, 08:59
I don't have a lot of faith in our police either,they seem to be profit rather than 'serve and protect'driven nowadays.......
I'm sure it's been said a million times,but it still amuses me,is how come you get burgled ect and it's 'come in and fill out a form and we'll see if we can get someone there in a few days' and yet when a car crashes there's 6 copcars all turn up in 5 mins? :brick:

Indo
19th April 2004, 11:25
... come you get burgled ect and it's 'come in and fill out a form and we'll see if we can get someone there in a few days' and yet when a car crashes there's 6 copcars all turn up in 5 mins? :brick:

Why does this amaze you, try using logic.

What difference does it really make once a burglar has long left the scene what time it is fingerprinted? If a burglar is still inside or theres a remote chance of catching him by doing areas then Police attend immediately.

What difference does it make when a car has crashed and people are injured/killed that Police do attend immediately? Ie to help the injured, preserve the scene and ensure that theres not a 20kmh long traffic jam.

The dumbarses who bitch about getting speeding tickets need to realise that its not the Police who set the speed limits. Do you expect Police not to enforce the law in this regard? or just not to apply it when its you speeding...
If you have a problem with getting speeding tickets complain to the Government or the LTSA.

How many of those bitching about the Police would be able to do the job themselves? aside from not being mentally tough enough i doubt any of the whiners could even pass the entry academic tests let alone the physical ones.

James Deuce
19th April 2004, 11:45
Why does this amaze you, try using logic.

What difference does it really make once a burglar has long left the scene what time it is fingerprinted? If a burglar is still inside or theres a remote chance of catching him by doing areas then Police attend immediately.

What difference does it make when a car has crashed and people are injured/killed that Police do attend immediately? Ie to help the injured, preserve the scene and ensure that theres not a 20kmh long traffic jam.

The dumbarses who bitch about getting speeding tickets need to realise that its not the Police who set the speed limits. Do you expect Police not to enforce the law in this regard? or just not to apply it when its you speeding...
If you have a problem with getting speeding tickets complain to the Government or the LTSA.

How many of those bitching about the Police would be able to do the job themselves? aside from not being mentally tough enough i doubt any of the whiners could even pass the entry academic tests let alone the physical ones.

BS - the first time we got burgled I got home just as the burglars were leaving. I rang the cops on my cellphone and got the normal "send a cop round in a few days and don't touch anything in the meantime" speech.

The next time was our car getting broken into - I heard the glass breaking and rang straight away. Got "no units available".

And that is what we are whining about. It is alright for Joe Average and his family to be put at risk. If I'd sconed one of the burglars with a softball bat the police would have jailed me for aggravated assault and I was warned about that over the phone by the 111 dispatcher.

Most of the reasonable people here have no issue with getting a speeding ticket. Its unpleasant but its your own silly fault. We do object to our own property being regarded as "optional belongings" as far as the police are concerned though. The police don't do a good job in this regard and add Government policy on speeding to the mix and you have a Government agency that is in a no win position in the PR stakes.

Just don't try and stick up for them when there is documented evidence to contrary.

Indo
19th April 2004, 12:10
BS - the first time we got burgled I got home just as the burglars were leaving. I rang the cops on my cellphone and got the normal "send a cop round in a few days and don't touch anything in the meantime" speech.

In that situation someone screwed up, either you or the person taking the call. Every single time there is a burglars on situation like that, every available unit will be sent to the job including all the dog units etc. And car thieves are treated the exact same way, every available car will race to the scene. If there are no units available thats the governments fault for under-resourcing the Police.

Getting pissed off at the Police is just stupid, if its that busy Police will be racing from job to job, an entire 10 hour shift without any meal or toilet breaks and probably a couple of hours unpaid overtime at the end to catch-up on the paper work.

If your complaining about to many resources being allocated to traffic enforcement thats also the Governments deal, they contract out road enforcement to Police and in return Police have to deliver on certain 'targets' set by the Government. Mind you they can probably compare the 463 people killed on the road each year to the amount killed by burglars and say that resources are allocated correctly.

It kinda sucks, but average joe and his family are more at risk every time they get in the car than they are from burglars and other crims and i guess thats why the gov allocates resources as it does.

James Deuce
19th April 2004, 13:31
Getting pissed off at the Police is just stupid, if its that busy Police will be racing from job to job, an entire 10 hour shift without any meal or toilet breaks and probably a couple of hours unpaid overtime at the end to catch-up on the paper work.



O boohoo - is it any different for the rest of us? How come they get an excuse for not meeting performance criteria? So who should I get "pissed off" at then?

Indo
19th April 2004, 14:09
O boohoo - is it any different for the rest of us? How come they get an excuse for not meeting performance criteria? So who should I get "pissed off" at then?

Jim in the course of your day at work...

Do you undergo the risk of being stabbed/beaten/shot and even killed everyday you go to work?
Do you have to face down Mongrel Mob Members armed only with a small canister of pepper spray?
Do you have to go to the scenes of suicides and sudden deaths dealing with the grieving family and removing (or picking up the peices) of the body?
Do you have to deal with the aftermath of fatal traffic accidents in which bodys literally disintegrate on impact?
Do you spend your day at work being constantly abused by 95% of the people you deal with?
Do you spend your day constantly dealing with the aftermath of crime and its victims?
Are you expected to work public holidays for no extra pay and do a nightshift that starts at 10pm and can run through to 1pm the next day if its busy and you have to get the paperwork finished from the shift (sacrificing 6 hours of your own time that you don't get paid for.)
And do you then have the people you supposedly serve overlook all this and abuse you because you didn't let them get off a speeding ticket they deserve?

What DO you do for a living Jim?

James Deuce
19th April 2004, 14:24
Jim in the course of your day at work...

Do you undergo the risk of being stabbed/beaten/shot and even killed everyday you go to work?
Do you have to face down Mongrel Mob Members armed only with a small canister of pepper spray?
Do you have to go to the scenes of suicides and sudden deaths dealing with the grieving family and removing (or picking up the peices) of the body?
Do you have to deal with the aftermath of fatal traffic accidents in which bodys literally disintegrate on impact?
Do you spend your day at work being constantly abused by 95% of the people you deal with?
Do you spend your day constantly dealing with the aftermath of crime and its victims?
Are you expected to work public holidays for no extra pay and do a nightshift that starts at 10pm and can run through to 1pm the next day if its busy and you have to get the paperwork finished from the shift (sacrificing 6 hours of your own time that you don't get paid for.)
And do you then have the people you supposedly serve overlook all this and abuse you because you didn't let them get off a speeding ticket they deserve?

What DO you do for a living Jim?

They were aware of the risks when they signed up. So you reckon one person's stress is lesser or greater than another's do you? Care to measure that? I would say that a policeman's chance of being killed on the job is less than a linesman, or a truck driver, or an Ag pilot. I don't get paid for overtime - who does? What the hell is a break? I get the privilege of going on call 1 week in 3 on a 24x7 basis. I get cut no slack for normal work hours and often go for days with no more than 2 hours sleep here and there. Slep deprivation is the biggest weapon in the torturers toolbag, so by definition my employer tortures me 1 week in 3. I get an allowance for it though. 10% of my hourly rate for the time I am on call.

So the police are more noble than everyone else are they? I'd say the majority of police folk are fairly normal people who want to make a difference. That doesn't make them better, than say my wife who is a nurse and gets paid less than a McDonalds worker per hour, and she is half way through a Master of Nursing degree, and has worked in neo-natal intensive care and paediatrics her whole working career. She's been attacked by Black Power & Mob members, hit by drunks, and parents whacked out on drugs, and assaulted by mentally unstable individuals. And she's obviously in your world of less worth than a policeman. As am I. Or all the other people on this site who aren't policemen/women who subscribe to this site, but work their arses off to make a contribution to a society that the police are supposed to serve.

You've ignored my issue utterly. We grow up being taught to call the police when you or your property are threatened. They don't respond to those calls in a timely fashion, if at all. You've just displayed the kind of hyperbole that most politicians display when challenged about the role of police in our society. The standard response is that most police are attempting to do the best job possible (true) with limited resources (true). Therefore anyone who complains about not being protected by them is a whining dissident scumbag, with obvious anti-social tendencies. Your defence is hollow and based on the premise that we should accept the fact that the police are understaffed and under financed and therefore should only perform traffic duties becasue so many people die on the roads. I don't buy it. Neither do I buy the argument that a policemen's lot is so horrific we should excuse anything that could be regarded as dereliction of duty.

Indo
19th April 2004, 16:23
So you reckon one person's stress is lesser or greater than another's do you? ....So the police are more noble than everyone else are they?.

Sorry if you chose to interupt it that way, my point was that your getting angry at the WRONG people. Do you really think Police undergo all those stresses and pressures if they did'nt actually give a crap about people & property, about catching burglars, car thieves and rapists? The only real upsides to the job are the occassions when you catch and lock away criminals.


You've ignored my issue utterly. We grow up being taught to call the police when you or your property are threatened. They don't respond to those calls in a timely fashion, if at all.


See above, when persons or property are threatened any available unit (including traffic units) will attend immediately. Jobs involving threats to persons/property are always given priority one status, if Police can't attend immediately its a matter of resources which the cop whose tied up at a domestic while you car is getting broken into has no say over at all (he will probably be just as angry as you).


The standard response is that most police are attempting to do the best job possible (true) with limited resources (true). Therefore anyone who complains about not being protected by them is a whining dissident scumbag

Err you kind of shot yourself in the foot here. Complaining about the lack of resources for Police is valid, blaming Police (like your doing)for the lack of resources is not. The government controls what resources Police get and where they go. Or do you actually think Police chose to be overworked and understaffed?



should only perform traffic duties becasue so many people die on the roads

Maybe you should just rewrite my posts into what you want them to read entirely?

Not once did i claim this, all i said was probably the reason the government does allocate the proportion of resources into traffic that it does, is the fact that so many people each year die on the roads. It really comes down to the argument whether or not attempting to reduce the 463 or so people who die each year on the roads is as important as Police attending your Burglary which occured while you were at work immediately. Again thou the Police don't really have much say over this anyway, the Government contracts Traffic to the Police who then have to do a certain amount of road policing hours.


Neither do I buy the argument that a policemen's lot is so horrific we should excuse anything that could be regarded as dereliction of duty.


And neither do I, whats your point?

James Deuce
19th April 2004, 16:58
And neither do I, whats your point?

If you don't get it by now there's no point explaining. As for re-reading posts I think you missed a few lines in my one, got incensed and posted some fairly aggressive responses that require responses.

I asked you a question: if the police, who haven't bothered to turn up when rung about potential immediate threats to my property and wellbeing twice, don't deserve my ire, whom do I vent my spleen to?

The court system was no help and we lost property and no claims bonuses. It cost us money and aggravation, and I lost my CD collection and never saw any of them again, and my wife lost her Grandmother's 1930 vintage nursing medal. Which we got back from a local 2nd hand dealer. Whom the police wouldn't prosecute for receiving.

I have not had good experiences with the police in regard to real threats to personal security. On the other hand I have had only one issue with a traffic guy and that was easily sorted. They've actually been helpful on more than one occasion, and even at 5am at a checkpoint I had a guy that was friendly wave me on after I explained I already been through 2 checkpoint in 20 minutes. As I said, getting a speeding ticket is your own silly fault, and I have no idea how we got to such an antagonistic "place".

I'm taking a chill pill and having a lie down.

Indo
19th April 2004, 17:17
Mate at the end of the day my point was that on neither of those occasions did the Police not 'bother' to turn up. In the first case with the burglars it sounds like an incompetent call-taker, and in the second theres not much you can do when the amount of crime > the number of police cars available.

That comes down to a question of resources which your average cop has no control over. And trust me theres nothing Police would have liked more to do than catch the arseholes robbing your house or breaking into your car, its incredibably frustrating to get there to late.

It just gets really irritating when cops do their best in pretty shitty conditions and still get slagged off over something they have no control over.

As to the aftermath thats a story thats way to common from a victims point of view. As to the 2nd hand dealer, its not a question of not being willing to prosecute, but not being able to, the law in regard to receiving is a bit of an arse.

SPman
19th April 2004, 17:39
It just gets really irritating when cops do their best in pretty shitty conditions and still get slagged off over something they have no control over.
.
Its human nature. Always attack/slag off the immediate perceived cause of your aggravation/frustration!
Now if we could just figure out a way of channelling all that aggro/bitching/etc, DIRECTLY at the gummint, we could be on to something! :msn-wink:

pete376403
19th April 2004, 19:19
Mate at the end of the day my point was that on neither of those occasions did the Police not 'bother' to turn up. In the first case with the burglars it sounds like an incompetent call-taker, and in the second theres not much you can do when the amount of crime > the number of police cars available.

That comes down to a question of resources which your average cop has no control over. .

But doesn't this come back to how the Police management distribute their resources? As in another thread, six HP cars and the helicopter to chase 1 speeding car? Police management should have ordered at least four of the cars out of the chase.
Spud, will police management ever do this?

Skyryder
19th April 2004, 20:14
Did you make a complaint about the bad driving? The cops can't be everywhere and they rely on receiving information from the public to apprehend dangerous drivers.

Why don't you start reporting bad driving to the authorities instead of writing letters to newspapers.

Used to do that myself when the kids were young. Mind you it had to be a realy silly piece of driveing. Stopped when the Police got the letters mixed up. Coming home from work one day when this dickhead came around the corner on the wrong side of the road. In those days I was riding a we 250 Honda dirt. Did a fast u-turn and got his number. Turned out the guy was a used car salesman with his buisness. Now what relay upset me was that the Police sent me the letter inteded to go to the driver while the letter that was intended for me with my name on it went to the car salesman. This bastard rang up the kids and threatened them for my actions. Now to cut a long story short I wrote a letter to the Police and sent a copy of this letter to my MP suggestiong that as this was there cockup someone had better sort this sod out pronto. Had a visit a few days from Mr Plod later and a letter of appologies and was told that the problem had been fixed. No idea what was said but never heard from this indavidual again and I never reported driving offences after this.

Skyryder

scumdog
19th April 2004, 21:16
But doesn't this come back to how the Police management distribute their resources? As in another thread, six HP cars and the helicopter to chase 1 speeding car? Police management should have ordered at least four of the cars out of the chase.
Spud, will police management ever do this?

Imagine if ALL bike riders were so harshly judged on isolated incidents or individal rider? (MAYBE WE ARE!) :weep:

I bet if that was the case a lot of you would scream "not fair" then.

I think there are about 5,000 cops in N.Z and someof you think they are ALL racist, incompetent, slack arse ticket dispensing road nazis because of the few you have met. :confused: es

spudchucka
20th April 2004, 22:29
But doesn't this come back to how the Police management distribute their resources? As in another thread, six HP cars and the helicopter to chase 1 speeding car? Police management should have ordered at least four of the cars out of the chase.
Spud, will police management ever do this?
6 cars is too many, especially if they had the chopper up. I don't have a copy of the new policy in front of me but as I recall it says no more than 2 police vehicles immediately pursuing the fleeing vehicle. I'll check on that when I get a chance.

The police management don't really have a choice regarding resource allocation as they are required to deliver X amount of traffic enforcement or the funding goes out the window. As another poster said in this thread the problem relly lies with how the police a funded and resourced from Govt.

James Deuce
20th April 2004, 22:45
Imagine if ALL bike riders were so harshly judged on isolated incidents or individal rider? (MAYBE WE ARE!) :weep:

I bet if that was the case a lot of you would scream "not fair" then.

I think there are about 5,000 cops in N.Z and someof you think they are ALL racist, incompetent, slack arse ticket dispensing road nazis because of the few you have met. :confused: es

No maybe about it.

DEATH_INC.
21st April 2004, 07:03
Let me give you an example....
A few years My bosses business went through a spate of ram-raids(like 3 in two weeks) which got to the point of nearly closing us down as the insurance companys were getting a bit edgy.any way after one of them the boss was there and rang the police and got the standard 'in a few days 'speech,to which he replied 'ok the next bastard that pokes his head through the door is gonna be shot'and hung up.....there was a unit there in 5 minutes.(he didn't actually have a firearm).And he spent a good amount of time there.
So how come a unit suddenly became availiable?With time to spare?

jrandom
21st April 2004, 09:07
So how come a unit suddenly became availiable?With time to spare?

Priorities innit. Someone's got a gun and says they'll use it, you have a potential homicide. Much better to avert it than wear the enormous cost of investigating and prosecuting afterwards. Hence the snappy response.

Believe me, I know how it feels to be the wronged and neglected citizen in these circumstances, but would you rather a rape victim on the other side of town had to wait half a day before seeing anyone so that they could fingerprint your burglary scene?

Like Spud says, it's about top-level decisions and mostly comes down to the available money. Write to your MP and argue rationally for a better funding structure that will help the front-line beat coppers.

spudchucka
21st April 2004, 20:03
Let me give you an example....
A few years My bosses business went through a spate of ram-raids(like 3 in two weeks) which got to the point of nearly closing us down as the insurance companys were getting a bit edgy.any way after one of them the boss was there and rang the police and got the standard 'in a few days 'speech,to which he replied 'ok the next bastard that pokes his head through the door is gonna be shot'and hung up.....there was a unit there in 5 minutes.(he didn't actually have a firearm).And he spent a good amount of time there.
So how come a unit suddenly became availiable?With time to spare?
Think about what you are saying. Your boss has made a direct threat to kill someone with a firearm. The police have no choice but to treat that as a serious and immediate threat. By doing this he has taken a police unit away from the job that they were doing, (a legitamate job with actual victims) and wasted their time with his bogus threat.

Lou Girardin
22nd April 2004, 03:12
Let me give you an example....
A few years My bosses business went through a spate of ram-raids(like 3 in two weeks) which got to the point of nearly closing us down as the insurance companys were getting a bit edgy.any way after one of them the boss was there and rang the police and got the standard 'in a few days 'speech,to which he replied 'ok the next bastard that pokes his head through the door is gonna be shot'and hung up.....there was a unit there in 5 minutes.(he didn't actually have a firearm).And he spent a good amount of time there.
So how come a unit suddenly became availiable?With time to spare?
That is almost exactly what happened to the South Isalnd guy who recently shot a cop, then topped himself. He got no response from Plod to several burglaries, so he arrested two guys at gun point at his premises (didn't fire it).
The Police prosecuted him ( another major criminal dealt with), it finally cost him his business. So he flipped and tried to kill the first cop he saw.
Maybe they should have put down their doughnuts and helped him when he needed it.
Lou

scumdog
22nd April 2004, 08:25
Do all you guys that moan about the cops not turning up or turning up promptly think the reason for it was because they were all sitting around in a do-nut shop somewhere and couldn't be buggered moving? - c'mon!!! :disapint:

Big Dog
22nd April 2004, 18:06
Do all you guys that moan about the cops not turning up or turning up promptly think the reason for it was because they were all sitting around in a do-nut shop somewhere and couldn't be buggered moving? - c'mon!!! :disapint:
I have seen senior officers turn off their radios because they were waiting for their Subway. Mind you I don't like having my lunch interupted either. :mobile:

Big Dog
22nd April 2004, 18:07
Oh and before you say.... the more junior told the other it was for him, the senior turned it off.

scumdog
22nd April 2004, 21:57
I have seen senior officers turn off their radios because they were waiting for their Subway. Mind you I don't like having my lunch interupted either. :mobile:
Yeah but postal workers don't count in this discusion ;)

and I ain't seen that sort of thing happen outside the movies :no:

spudchucka
22nd April 2004, 22:05
I have seen senior officers turn off their radios because they were waiting for their Subway. Mind you I don't like having my lunch interupted either. :mobile:
They are entitled to a meal break and if they have time to take one, (not often the case) they usually log themselves out of service for 1/2 an hour. Sometimes it is wise to turn off radios in public places like Subway because broadcasting to all and sundry isn't always appropriate.

Lou Girardin
23rd April 2004, 06:55
There's always a reason why the cops can't attend when we need them, but can write 1.2 million traffic tickets a year.
Lou

spudchucka
23rd April 2004, 13:41
There's always a reason why the cops can't attend when we need them, but can write 1.2 million traffic tickets a year.
Lou
Get over it or change the record, please.

Drew
30th April 2004, 00:56
The number of people dying on New Zealand's roads over Easter has
risen for the first time in five years.

Four people - three motorists and one pedestrian - died in road
accidents between Thursday night and 6am on Tuesday morning, when the
long weekend period officially ended.

Until now, the Easter road toll has been slowly dropping since 1999,
when there were seven deaths.

Inspector John Kelly says it is disappointing the toll is one higher
than the past two years.

What a nonsense these sorts of stats are! Ballpark, about one person a day dies as a result of motor vehicle accidents. On this basis, the "holiday road toll" for Easter should be (wait for it) four! (plus or minus).

It is also interesting to note that there is no published "holiday influenza toll", when statistically a similar number of people (four) would have died this weekend from flu-related causes.
It's a fact, that 65%, of all statistics, are misread, or mis interpreted. :gob: